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[pj]

Thanks for the reply, that's a real world example, which is good. If the majority of that is assets, then ultra setting at 1080p should run into the same problems on 4GB right? If not, then I'm still wondering why the need is higher for 4K, the assets are the same, if the GPU can handle the workload, why is the memory requirement so much more? As you say the actual frame buffer hasn't been a problem for a while.

What I'd love to know is, what is the breakdown of a games VRAM, and given the same settings (say Ultra), what changes between 1080p and 4k (or other higher than 1080p res). I know things like AA consume more frame buffer space, and so does things like double and triple buffering.

What I'm hoping this discussion would get us, is a better understanding of whether 4GB's is enough if a different memory architecture is used (HBM). Like does increasing the resolution 2x or 4x consume an extra 1GB or 2GB, just in its self.

I would like an explanation of this as well. Why does > 1080p necessarily require a lot more VRAM?

The assets aren't any different (?), so why is 4gb suddenly not enough?

Also, just because some games "use" more than 4gb doesn't mean they "need" more than 4gb.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Picture tweeted by dev Johan Andersson of Frostbite engine fame, presumably the 390X:

http://wccftech.com/amd-fiji-offici...ter-johann-andersson-matches-previous-render/

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Pretty much confirms the specs of the 980 Ti too:

http://wccftech.com/nvidia-gtx-980-ti-specs-benchmarks/

 

[Jomjom]

So if I haven't bought a card yet for my new PC build should I wait for this? Already decided not to go Nvidia because I hate Nvidia.

 

[ScepticMatt]

So if I haven't bought a card yet for my new PC build should I wait for this? Already decided not to go Nvidia because I hate Nvidia.

If you don't need something right now, then wait.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

So if I haven't bought a card yet for my new PC build should I wait for this? Already decided not to go Nvidia because I hate Nvidia.

Well, looks like these two cards are going to go head-to-head, releasing within weeks of each other and with similar price and performance. You'll just have to choose between a smaller form factor 390X (it will have a new name) with HBM or a 980 Ti with more memory, albeit 6GB GDDR5.

First real pic of 980 Ti leaked today as well:

http://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-...powered-cost-effective-maxwell-graphics-card/

 

[Jomjom]

If you don't need something right now, then wait.

Yeah it's just sitting in the garage until I have time to unpack after moving into a new home. Will wait! Thanks!

Definitely getting VR too once that gets a retail release so I guess this would work well with that?

 

[ZOONAMI]

"You're not limited in this world to any number of stacks, but from a capacity point of view, this generation-one HBM, each DRAM is a two-gigabit DRAM, so yeah, if you have four stacks you're limited to four gigabytes. You could build things with more stacks, you could build things with less stacks."

AMDs CTO Joe Macri. Seems to me there will undoubtedly be non-reference design 390x with more hbm, hopefully an 8gb option at launch, and eventually more than that.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Well, looks like these two cards are going to go head-to-head, releasing within weeks of each other and with similar price and performance. You'll just have to choose between a smaller form factor 390X (it will have a new name) with HBM or a 980 Ti with more memory, albeit 6GB GDDR5.

First real pic of 980 Ti leaked today as well:

There will hopefully be a 8gb non-reference design 390x. Then very little reason to get a 980ti.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Well, looks like these two cards are going to go head-to-head, releasing within weeks of each other and with similar price and performance. You'll just have to choose between a smaller form factor 390X (it will have a new name) with HBM or a 980 Ti with more memory, albeit 6GB GDDR5.

First real pic of 980 Ti leaked today as well:

For once a nvidia card actually looks cheap in comparison to an amd reference design.

 

[LilJoka]

There will hopefully be a 8gb non-reference design 390x. Then very little reason to get a 980ti.

That is so unlikely.

I wouldn't be buying AMD if the 980Ti is similarly priced. Witcher 3, Project Cars, the list is only going to grow.

 

[ZOONAMI]

That is so unlikely.

I wouldn't be buying AMD if the 980Ti is similarly priced. Witcher 3, Project Cars, the list is only going to grow.

It's not unlikely at all.

"You're not limited in this world to any number of stacks, but from a capacity point of view, this generation-one HBM, each DRAM is a two-gigabit DRAM, so yeah, if you have four stacks you're limited to four gigabytes. You could build things with more stacks, you could build things with less stacks."

AMDs CTO Joe Macri. Seems to me there will undoubtedly be non-reference design 390x with more hbm, hopefully an 8gb option at launch, and eventually more than that.

 

[Abilidebob]

If I want to buy a card at the "level" of a 970 should I wait for this new-gen or not?
I mean, with how much they're selling, I can't see Nvidia doing a pricedrop, and that new AMD gen doesn't use HBM so I can't see much reason to go AMD.
Unless one of the cards they release is way better than a 970 but with similar price.

 

[ZOONAMI]

If I want to buy a card at the "level" of a 970 should I wait for this new-gen or not?
I mean, with how much they're selling, I can't see Nvidia doing a pricedrop, and that new AMD gen doesn't use HBM so I can't see much reason to go AMD.
Unless one of the cards they release is way better than a 970 but with similar price.

They already have that, it's called a 290x.

 

[Abilidebob]

They already have that, it's called a 290x.

Looking at recent releases that doesn't help much.
I want a GPU with enough power that AMD's drivers/game devs incompetence won't screw me over.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Looking at recent releases that doesn't help much.
I want a GPU with enough power that AMD's drivers/game devs incompetence won't screw me over.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with amd drivers, in fact, they continue to optimize older cards for much longer than nvidia does. A 290x will outperform a 970, forever.

 

[badb0y]

Looking at recent releases that doesn't help much.
I want a GPU with enough power that AMD's drivers/game devs incompetence won't screw me over.

Judging from the nVidia's lack of support for Kepler merely a year out since Maxwell launched, AMD is actually superior in their driver optimizations for their cards, especially the older ones.

 

[badb0y]

Well, looks like these two cards are going to go head-to-head, releasing within weeks of each other and with similar price and performance. You'll just have to choose between a smaller form factor 390X (it will have a new name) with HBM or a 980 Ti with more memory, albeit 6GB GDDR5.

First real pic of 980 Ti leaked today as well:

Why is there a backplate on the 980 and not one on the 980Ti and Titan X? Seems backwards lol.

 

[McHuj]

There will hopefully be a 8gb non-reference design 390x. Then very little reason to get a 980ti.

No. With HBM the memory and GPU are pretty much produced as one, you can't really modify it after the fact.

 

[Zoned]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with amd drivers, in fact, they continue to optimize older cards for much longer than nvidia does. A 290x will outperform a 970, forever.

Dude, you work for AMD?

 

[TSM]

It's not unlikely at all.

"You're not limited in this world to any number of stacks, but from a capacity point of view, this generation-one HBM, each DRAM is a two-gigabit DRAM, so yeah, if you have four stacks you're limited to four gigabytes. You could build things with more stacks, you could build things with less stacks."

AMDs CTO Joe Macri. Seems to me there will undoubtedly be non-reference design 390x with more hbm, hopefully an 8gb option at launch, and eventually more than that.

The HBM memory is mounted on the interposer. This means a non-reference 8GB chip is impossible. The only way that a card can have any other configuration then 4GB is if AMD makes other reference configurations. If AMD is only providing 4GB GPUs, then that's the only configuration that will exist.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

There will hopefully be a 8gb non-reference design 390x. Then very little reason to get a 980ti.

Let's wait to see the rest of the designs. But from what I have seen and from past precedents (Titan X for 980 Ti and 295X2), I think I'll prefer the looks of the AMD card.

 

[curiouscharles]

Well, looks like these two cards are going to go head-to-head, releasing within weeks of each other and with similar price and performance. You'll just have to choose between a smaller form factor 390X (it will have a new name) with HBM or a 980 Ti with more memory, albeit 6GB GDDR5.

First real pic of 980 Ti leaked today as well:

link? more info? etc...

when are we expecting these out?

many thanks in advance for these infos!

 

[Jin]

Pretty much confirms the specs of the 980 Ti too:

http://wccftech.com/nvidia-gtx-980-ti-specs-benchmarks/

Finally, since the GTX 980 Ti uses a cut down version of the GM200 GPU this will very likely mean that the card will have a two segment memory system like the GTX 970. We don’t know the exact proportions of the memory segments, but we estimate that something like 5.5GB + 0.5GB is likely. Thankfully, because the 980 Ti has a lot more memory than the GTX 970 to begin with, this should not be an issue, as 5.5GB is plenty of memory to begin with.

Nvidia can't be serious.

 

[LilJoka]

It's not unlikely at all.

"You're not limited in this world to any number of stacks, but from a capacity point of view, this generation-one HBM, each DRAM is a two-gigabit DRAM, so yeah, if you have four stacks you're limited to four gigabytes. You could build things with more stacks, you could build things with less stacks."

AMDs CTO Joe Macri. Seems to me there will undoubtedly be non-reference design 390x with more hbm, hopefully an 8gb option at launch, and eventually more than that.

Are you trying to say that a reference design will be released with 8gb and then a non-reference design? Or are you trying to say that outright a non-ref design will be made with 8gb VRAM? As the latter doesnt seem unlikely, I have never seen that before. There maybe some limits in the architecture of the GPU Core itself which mean that more than 4gb is not usable. It may also be down to the layout of the board and restrictions on the location of the VRAM in terms of its vicinity to the die due to other architectural considerations such as slew rates/latencies/RF interference of such high bandwidths.

Nvidia can't be serious.

Ouch!

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

link? more info? etc...

when are we expecting these out?

many thanks in advance for these infos!

Sorry, http://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-...powered-cost-effective-maxwell-graphics-card/

 

[ohyouagain]

Could AMD theoreticaly provide us with something more powerful than the 750 Ti but with the same power envelope in this batch of cards ?

 

[Boombox On]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with amd drivers, in fact, they continue to optimize older cards for much longer than nvidia does. A 290x will outperform a 970, forever.

There definitely are amd driver issues, especially if the GPU is writing a check the CPU can't cash.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

On a side note, the assertions by some on here that the 980 Ti would be faster than the Titan X appear to be wrong looking at the slides.

This does make things a little better for the upcoming 390X IF it turns out to be slightly faster than the Titan X. And that's a big IF with the rumoured 4GB limit.

 

[curiouscharles]

Sorry, http://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-...powered-cost-effective-maxwell-graphics-card/

much obliged!

edit: not seeing anything about release date though, am i just a poor reader? :/

will be a touch disappointing [read: quite disappointing, actually] if the 980Ti isn't any faster than the Titan X - might make me hold out longer until Pascal as simply upgrading to a G-SYNC monitor has made 1440p playable again for me on my 980.

 

[LilJoka]

On a side note, the assertions by some on here that the 980 Ti would be faster than the Titan X appear to be wrong looking at the slides.

This does make things a little better for the upcoming 390X IF it turns out to be slightly faster than the Titan X. And that's a big IF with the rumoured 4GB limit.

Hmm the slide shows that a 200Mhz OC on the 980Ti beats the Titan X by a fair amount. Even a 100Mhz OC would probably beat it by some margin ~5%. And those OCs are really marginal in terms of Maxwell, the 970s are doing 1500Mhz core on average, from a base of around 1200Mhz.

 

[ZOONAMI]

There definitely are amd driver issues, especially if the GPU is writing a check the CPU can't cash.

Nothing to the point where the 290x won't outperform a 970. Both amd and nvidia drivers aren't "perfect" - nothing is. But amds drivers are fine, and at least they don't abandon optimization for older architectures like nvidia has done with Kepler.

 

[TSM]

On a side note, the assertions by some on here that the 980 Ti would be faster than the Titan X appear to be wrong looking at the slides.

This does make things a little better for the upcoming 390X IF it turns out to be slightly faster than the Titan X. And that's a big IF with the rumoured 4GB limit.

From what it looks like the 980ti is to the Titan X what the 970 is to the 980 (AKA cut down).

 

[LilJoka]

Nothing to the point where the 290x won't outperform a 970. Both amd and nvidia drivers aren't "perfect" - nothing is. But amds drivers are fine, and at least they don't abandon optimization for older architectures like nvidia has done with Kepler.

Have you got a 290X? I ask because it would actually be interesting to do some comparisons with a an overclocked 290X and GTX 970 (that i have).

 

[ZOONAMI]

Are you trying to say that a reference design will be released with 8gb and then a non-reference design? Or are you trying to say that outright a non-ref design will be made with 8gb VRAM? As the latter doesnt seem unlikely, I have never seen that before. There maybe some limits in the architecture of the GPU Core itself which mean that more than 4gb is not usable. It may also be down to the layout of the board and restrictions on the location of the VRAM in terms of its vicinity to the die due to other architectural considerations such as slew rates/latencies/RF interference of such high bandwidths.



Ouch!

There are 8gb 290x, there was never a reference 8gb 290x. There are numerous examples of board partners increasing vram from the reference design. The only question is whether or not the board partners can get their hands on hbm easily enough to stack more hbm on their cards. Shouldn't be a problem though, just cut your production somewhat of your 4gb cards do you can offer limited supplies of a higher end 8gb SKU.

 

[LilJoka]

There are 8gb 290x, there was never a reference 8gb 290x. There are numerous examples of board partners increasing vram from the reference design. The only question is whether or not the board partners can get their hands on hbm easily enough to stack more hbm on their cards. Shouldn't be a problem though, just cut your production somewhat of your 4gb cards do you can offer limited supplies of a higher end 8gb SKU.

I see, then i am mistaken.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Have you got a 290X? I ask because it would actually be interesting to do some comparisons with a an overclocked 290X and GTX 970 (that i have).

Yes I do have a 290x. You can look up numerous recent benchmarks where the 290x consistently outperforms the 970, and in some games the 980, especially at resolutions above 1080p.

 

[justgames7604]

Have you got a 290X? I ask because it would actually be interesting to do some comparisons with a an overclocked 290X and GTX 970 (that i have).

i got both. Usually the 290x beats the 970 by a few fps some games like gta V the 970 (actually 3 970s) pulls ahead about 10fps average with a slighty lower lowest fps.

Above 1080p the 290x pulls ahead alot and is very close to the 980.

By a few fps i am refering to average fps ~4-5 fps

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Hmm the slide shows that a 200Mhz OC on the 980Ti beats the Titan X by a fair amount. Even a 100Mhz OC would probably beat it by some margin ~5%. And those OCs are really marginal in terms of Maxwell, the 970s are doing 1500Mhz core on average, from a base of around 1200Mhz.

Yeah but that Titan X can be overclocked by 200Mhz, to in turn bump up its performance. And because the Titan X chips aren't leftovers from a wafer, wouldn't this likely mean that 20% overclocks that are the standard for that card might be harder to achieve on the 980 Ti?

 

[ZOONAMI]

i got both. Usually the 290x beats the 970 by a few fps some games like gta V the 970 (actually 3 970s) pulls ahead about 10fps average with a slighty lower lowest fps.

Above 1080p the 290x pulls ahead alot and is very close to the 980.

By a few fps i am refering to average fps ~4-5 fps

Yep

 

[LilJoka]

Yeah but that Titan X can be overclocked by 200Mhz, to in turn bump up its performance. And because the Titan X chips aren't leftovers from a wafer, wouldn't this likely mean that 20% overclocks that are the standard for that card might be harder to achieve on the 980 Ti?

Nah, same thing with the 970 and 980, both OC just as much as each other. Comparison was between OC 390X, OC 980Ti and stock Titan X. Of course Titan X can also be overclocked, but that isnt the point, Titan X costs a LOT.

i got both. Usually the 290x beats the 970 by a few fps some games like gta V the 970 (actually 3 970s) pulls ahead about 10fps average with a slighty lower lowest fps.

Above 1080p the 290x pulls ahead alot and is very close to the 980.

By a few fps i am refering to average fps ~4-5 fps

What kind of clocks do you run on your cards? State the base clocks if you know them too please.

 

[michaelius]

Could AMD theoreticaly provide us with something more powerful than the 750 Ti but with the same power envelope in this batch of cards ?

Extremly unlikely - anything below Fiji seems to be rebrand of existing gpus.

 

[visiblemode]

It's threads like these that make me want to throw a bajillion dollars into a new gaming pc.

 

[Devildoll]

There are 8gb 290x, there was never a reference 8gb 290x. There are numerous examples of board partners increasing vram from the reference design. The only question is whether or not the board partners can get their hands on hbm easily enough to stack more hbm on their cards. Shouldn't be a problem though, just cut your production somewhat of your 4gb cards do you can offer limited supplies of a higher end 8gb SKU.

that's usually done by simply placing higher capacity ddr5 memory in the same spots that the original memory sat.
from what I've read you cant stack higher than 4 per stack (1 GB) and 4 stacks total (4 GB) on the 390x.

So from what i understand, you'd need higher density HBM, just like in the case with GDDR5, but i don't think there is any higher capacity to be found yet.
Later down the road perhaps, unless there are other limiting factors as well.

 

[curiouscharles]

sorry to keep wasting page space with this question guys, but when are we expecting these to release?

[i read awhile back about "a few weeks from now", but that clearly hasn't materialized]

edit: okay, followed coloumb's first link, looks like "less than two weeks" now - fingers crossed #tothemax

 

[dgrdsv]

Nvidia can't be serious.

Sure they can. As with 970 this config is actually preferable to alternatives. You're getting more hardware for a lower price. And you will still have 5,5GB of fast VRAM - which isn't exactly a small amount.

But let's wait a week and see. They may actually leave all ROPs/L2 operational - this depends on what price the thing will end up on.

sorry to keep wasting page space with this question guys, but when are we expecting these to release?

[i read awhile back about "a few weeks from now", but that clearly hasn't materialized]

edit: okay, followed coloumb's first link, looks like "less than two weeks" now - fingers crossed #tothemax

Fiji -- end of June availability
Rest of Radeon 300 line -- beginning of June
GTX980Ti - end of May availability

 

[Pagusas]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with amd drivers, in fact, they continue to optimize older cards for much longer than nvidia does. A 290x will outperform a 970, forever.

It will?

Sure thats just one game, but AMD continues to lack support when needed the most: when the biggest games of the year come out.

 

[ZOONAMI]

that's usually done by simply placing higher capacity ddr5 memory in the same spots that the original memory sat.
from what I've read you cant stack higher than 4 per stack (1 GB) and 4 stacks total (4 GB) on the 390x.

So from what i understand, you'd need higher density HBM, just like in the case with GDDR5, but i don't think there is any higher capacity to be found yet.
Later down the road perhaps, unless there are other limiting factors as well.

No. Build it with a bigger PCB, and add more sacks. Maybe you can even fit more stacks in the reference design.

"You're not limited in this world to any number of stacks, but from a capacity point of view, this generation-one HBM, each DRAM is a two-gigabit DRAM, so yeah, if you have four stacks you're limited to four gigabytes. You could build things with more stacks, you could build things with less stacks."

AMDs CTO Joe Macri.

 

[ZOONAMI]

It will?

Sure thats just one game, but AMD continues to lack support when needed the most: when the biggest games of the year come out.

That's one fucking game man. And if the bench was done at 1440p, the 290x would pull ahead of the 970 and close the gap with the 980.

 

[Nikodemos]

So from what i understand, you'd need higher density HBM, just like in the case with GDDR5, but i don't think there is any higher capacity to be found yet.

HBM2 already exists. However nobody knows for sure when exactly products will start appearing.

It will?

Sure thats just one game, but AMD continues to lack support when needed the most: when the biggest games of the year come out.

Not trying to defend AMD's real issues, but how exactly can they provide support for an nVidia Gameworks title using a bunch of nVidia exclusive/proprietary stuff?