Xbox One adds Xbox 360 backwards compatibility

CaptainGyro said:
So if I buy a xbone I can just use my old account and get those games back for free once they are available? That's what I'm getting from the op but I'm wondering if maybe there's been a clarification or edit or something that wasn't put in the op yet
Because if thats the way it is, that is ridiculously awesome and a step in making the xbone something I am finding more attractive
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1) You can play your old digital or retail games when they are supported. There is a constantly growing list of supported titles.
2) You can continue your old savegames when you have uploaded them into the cloud on your 360. (When they are just on the old 360 harddrive then obviously not)
 
Syriel said:
And that is a claim that Anandtech has no source for, and goes against everything MS has said publicly.

If these were ports, then they wouldn't be calling it emulation.

Sure, it's possible that the MS engineers are making it all up and they're not really doing emulation, but what would be the point? If they created magic porting software that could convert compiled code from one platform to another without issue, they'd be shouting that from the rooftops. That would be a massive technical accomplishment.

Getting PPC code to run in a Hyper-V VM on an x64 machine? Good programmers, but not something that is technically impossible, especially when they know the machine they are emulating inside and out.

As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, the most likely answer is that MS has either licensed Transitive technology or is using something similar developed in house and incorporated that into a VM package. Take the original game image, drop it into the container and run the emulator. That's what makes the most logical sense.
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I still don't see why you'd have to download the entire game to play the disc copy if that were the case. You didn't do this with the 360's BC, it simply needed an updated emulator that knew how to run the new games. In this case however the emulator and the game itself appear inseparable, so it doesn't seem as likely that the data itself is identical.
 
Syriel said:
Sure, it's possible that the MS engineers are making it all up and they're not really doing emulation, but what would be the point? If they created magic porting software that could convert compiled code from one platform to another without issue, they'd be shouting that from the rooftops. That would be a massive technical accomplishment.
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What?

No it wouldn't.

If the games used a well designed API and were forced to use it, then it's not that difficult at all. Some open source software is capable of easily supporting 30 or 40 platforms at once. Totally different platforms. Big Endian. Little Endian. Doesn't matter. And the developers themselves don't have to care most of the time about those details. And that's done by developers in their free time. For free. Those software uses for example the SDL library for graphics and sound most of the time.

It wouldn't work for games, that directly accessed the hardware in some ways. That's why for example such a method wouldn't work for games on PS3 that made special use of the cell. Although even for some of those cases you could write code, that would convert some typical code to code, that will work on the other platform.

This thread title alone is called "backward compatibility", although it's clearly not. You have to download new code of a game. That's not what backward compatibility actually is.

You really think that PR people know about any details at all? For them it runs, so they call it "backward compatible". Those are not developers or technicians.

It actually would be "more impressive" if they managed to fully emulate a triple core Big Endian CPU running at 3.2 Ghz on a eight core Little Endian CPU, running at 1.75 Ghz.
 
mike4001_ said:
1) You can play your old digital or retail games when they are supported. There is a constantly growing list of supported titles.
2) You can continue your old savegames when you have uploaded them into the cloud on your 360. (When they are just on the old 360 harddrive then obviously not)
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ok thanks
 
jimi_dini said:
What?

This thread title alone is called "backward compatibility", although it's clearly not. You have to download new code of a game. That's not what backward compatibility actually is.
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I put disc in. Stuff happens. I play the game. Do you think the general public will know/care what is happening under the hood? They will call it backwards compatibility.
 
To all of the licensing discussion above (good stuff) - I would guess there will be also companies who will just flat out deny the "rights" to their game being BC because they want to sell it again as a HD Remaster. This would have never happened with true, hardware, offline BC that works w/o internet connection. I guess that ship has sailed long time ago.

IMO it is crazy that Bethesda gave out Fallout 3 like that. Mad props to them.
 
So if i had a 360 version on disc of a game i still need that to play it?
I sold everything not long ago. Would be great if it just looked what i owned on your account and you just can download it.
 
Zeyphersan said:
I've actually consciously decided to buy less console games in leu of PC games for that EXACT reason. I don't like my purchases being tied to a specific hardware platform that I may not own in X amount of time. I was also set on never owning an Xbox 360 and not buying an Xbox One

Guess what just changed because of this announcement?
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You buying an Xbox One?

Welcome to the Dark Side :)
 
Flintty said:
I put disc in. Stuff happens. I play the game. Do you think the general public will know/care what is happening under the hood? They will call it backwards compatibility.
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Exactly. Joe Plumber will put his Gears 2 into the Xbox One, dowload 4.6 GB of data (which is less than some patches for Xbox One games (!!!)) and play his old-ass copy of Gears 2 on his new-ass Xbox One.

No ifs and buts.
 
Flintty said:
I put disc in. Stuff happens. I play the game. Do you think the general public will know/care what is happening under the hood? They will call it backwards compatibility.
Click to expand...

That's what I mean. For the general public, they may call it backwards compatible. But in a technical sense it's not.

Backwards compatible means that you are able to simply run the old code.

If for example Windows 7 isn't capable of running a certain game in its original release and you need an update or patch ro run it, then there is a Windows 7 backwards compatibility issue somewhere. Otherwise it would simply work without any changes. And no 360 disc will simply work without the user downloading the game for the Bone.

Otherwise for example PS4 would be "backward compatible" in some cases with PS3 for the games, that you get "for free" in case you already bought the digital version on PS3. That's not actually backward compatibility. You are just getting 2 versions of the game. Which is of course nice, but not backward compatibility.

The thread title alone is inaccurate in any case. "360 backward compatibility" implies that everything works. But instead it's the ability to play some hand-selected 360 games on the Bone. As I said - it's nice of course. Props to Microsoft. I personally wouldn't be that happy simply because I would know that there are some niche games, that will never work that way. And I'm personally interested in how well those games will work. Xbox 1 "bc" on 360 was really bad. Similar to PS2 "bc" on European PS3s.
 
I love that it's mostly Rare titles that are available atm

This sure is a megaton, the reaction from the crowd was legendary!

edit: I own most of these titles but I don't have the freaking preview program.. Is there any kind soul here who could send an invite? I would forever be in your debt
 
jimi_dini said:
That's what I mean. For the general public, they may call it backwards compatible. But in a technical sense it's not.

Backwards compatible means that you are able to simply run the old code.

If for example Windows 7 isn't capable of running a certain game in its original release and you need an update or patch ro run it, then there is a Windows 7 backwards compatibility issue somewhere. Otherwise it would simply work without any changes. And no 360 disc will simply work without the user downloading the game for the Bone.

Otherwise for example PS4 would be "backward compatible" in some cases with PS3 for the games, that you get "for free" in case you already bought the digital version on PS3. That's not actually backward compatibility. You are just getting 2 versions of the game. Which is of course nice, but not backward compatibility.

The thread title alone is inaccurate in any case. "360 backward compatibility" implies that everything works. But instead it's the ability to play some hand-selected 360 games on the Bone. As I said - it's nice of course. Props to Microsoft. I personally wouldn't be that happy simply because I would know that there are some niche games, that will never work that way. And I'm personally interested in how well those games will work. Xbox 1 "bc" on 360 was really bad. Similar to PS2 "bc" on European PS3s.
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As I understand it its the same game code, no recompile or what ever . In the video they released they say they repackage the game and wrap it with the needed virtual machine abstraction layer and the 360 barebone os to provide the minimal OS feature set and quick guide support. Thats the reason the packages all have an x64 identifier because of course the VM layer is coded for a 64bit X86 code base! In result each game brings its own little 360 with it!

Video: Youtube

So in my understanding it is technically a full BC just without any special HW support.

As you mentioned earlier as long a game didn't need to use some sort of directly coding to the metal games will run without big problems is such a VM based emulation.
 
jimi_dini said:
That's what I mean. For the general public, they may call it backwards compatible. But in a technical sense it's not.

Backwards compatible means that you are able to simply run the old code.

If for example Windows 7 isn't capable of running a certain game in its original release and you need an update or patch ro run it, then there is a Windows 7 backwards compatibility issue somewhere. Otherwise it would simply work without any changes. And no 360 disc will simply work without the user downloading the game for the Bone.

Otherwise for example PS4 would be "backward compatible" in some cases with PS3 for the games, that you get "for free" in case you already bought the digital version on PS3. That's not actually backward compatibility. You are just getting 2 versions of the game. Which is of course nice, but not backward compatibility.

The thread title alone is inaccurate in any case. "360 backward compatibility" implies that everything works. But instead it's the ability to play some hand-selected 360 games on the Bone. As I said - it's nice of course. Props to Microsoft. I personally wouldn't be that happy simply because I would know that there are some niche games, that will never work that way. And I'm personally interested in how well those games will work. Xbox 1 "bc" on 360 was really bad. Similar to PS2 "bc" on European PS3s.
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You say handful of titles, but Microsoft engineers have built a solution such that only the following titles will NOT be on the BC program:

*Games that publishers say No to
*Games that are de-listed
*Games that require Kinect

We already have major publishers like Bethesda, Ubisoft, and EA saying Yes. I dont use Kinect and I think my only de-listed games are the Doritos games, so I could conceivably have 99% of my library be backwards compatible.

The issue that's still up in the air is: How many publishers will say No? Given that Microsoft's solution requires zero effort from publishers, hopefully almost none. And Microsoft set a good example today by announcing Gears of War 1 remastered on the same day that Gears of War 1 360 was announced as backwards compatible. Hopefully the Gears remaster sells a fuckton of units, to show there's no reason remasters and BC cannot coexist.
 
VisceralBowl said:
It's on the console. You download a digital version of the game once you insert the disc (or just redownload from your library if you're on digital) and it works.

It works 100% offline as long as you downloaded the recompiled version beforehand.
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Awesome, will 100% get a one at the point where all the games I haven't played/finished are supported (none of them are that niche, vesparia, Lost Odyssey, 13-2, and el shiddai are the nichiest of the bunch).

I could live without el shiddai support since it's probably pretty unlikely and it's pretty short.
 
VisceralBowl said:
It's on the console. You download a digital version of the game once you insert the disc (or just redownload from your library if you're on digital) and it works.

It works 100% offline as long as you downloaded the recompiled version beforehand.
Click to expand...

Would be a gamechanger if it added further framerate stability and increased load times. Any info on this?

Also dragons dogma up vote:

http://xbox.uservoice.com/forums/29...uggestions/8379060-dragon-s-dogma-dark-arisen
 
Montresor said:
*Games that publishers say No to
*Games that are de-listed
*Games that require Kinect
Click to expand...

I would like to add one, and this is the one that may keep the list short:

*Games that they don't ask the publishers for

I doubt they are reaching out to every publisher and going game by game. They are more just willing to listen to publishers that say "do game X" and may ask about game Y if game Y was voted high up on their feedback lists.
 
If it's gonna redownload disc based games than Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon pretty much won't be happening any time soon. Both are not available digitally on 360 after all.
 
Tabris said:
I would like to add one, and this is the one that may keep the list short:

*Games that they don't ask the publishers for

I doubt they are reaching out to every publisher and going game by game. They are more just willing to listen to publishers that say "do game X" and may ask about game Y if game Y was voted high up on their feedback lists.
Click to expand...

If I were sending the emails, it'd basically be like "We wanna put your games up, cool? Are there any that are off-limits?", rather than ask for each one individually.
 
MCD said:
If it's gonna redownload disc based games than Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon pretty much won't be happening any time soon. Both are not available digitally on 360 after all.
Click to expand...

You don´t just download the old disc image.

This is a seperate download which (might be altered) and added some compability stuff.

It should not matter if the game was previously availably digitally.
 
MCD said:
If it's gonna redownload disc based games than Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon pretty much won't be happening any time soon. Both are not available digitally on 360 after all.
Click to expand...

Originally Posted by SenjutsuSage

Btw Phil told me that he's been emphasizing that games like blue dragon and lost odyssey are also supported and working as expected.
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:D
 
WhiteRabbitEXE said:
I think the PS3 just used a single, general purpose emulator for PS1, so the status of any individual games is irrelevant. With Xbox One/360 they're individual emulators, so it's a different situation.
Click to expand...

Based on the Xbox Daily that aired yesterday, there is only one emulator for all games. They just need rights.
 
StoppedInTracks said:
You buying an Xbox One?

Welcome to the Dark Side :)
Click to expand...

I actually had one before, but sold it when I realized that nothing was coming out that I felt I NEEDED (especially after MCC dropped and it was broken as shit) so I sold it (for more than I bought it for!) Then I bought an Xbox 360 but Gamestop was having a promotion where if you traded in a 360 towards a PS4 you got like $150 for it, and seeing as how I paid $60 for it I couldn't pass up that deal. So now I'm without an Xbox One and without an Xbox 360, and guess what solution just happens to crop up that fixes both those problems WITHOUT needing two consoles hooked up?

It's brilliant
 
Colbert said:
As I understand it its the same game code, no recompile or what ever . In the video they released they say they repackage the game and wrap it with the needed virtual machine abstraction layer and the 360 barebone os to provide the minimal OS feature set and quick guide support. Thats the reason the packages all have an x64 identifier because of course the VM layer is coded for a 64bit X86 code base! In result each game brings its own little 360 with it!
Click to expand...

There's a surprising amount of disparity between the file size differences of various games though. Geometry Wars is 15mb on 360, and 564mb on X1 (549mb difference) vs Super Meat Boy which is 110mb on 360, and 721mb on X1 (611mb difference). If the game package itself were unaltered, I would expect the 360 VM to weight in at around the same size each time, but every game has a completely different file size disparity.

solis74 said:
No digital copy required if you have the hard copy.
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A digital copy will need to exist (even if it doesn't currently) in order for you to play your hard copy on X1. There's no digital / physical separation here outside of the license to play it.
 
I don't understand why people are voting for COD:BO2 and COD:MW2 or for cod at all.

I am able to understand platform exclusive games...but Skyrim, Bioshock Infinite and etc. Are you for real?
 
What happens if I put in a disc from a different region on my German Account? I got a stinking old region free asian copy of Viva Pinata TIP laying around, would be great, if that worked. Any problems known?
 
Tabris said:
I would like to add one, and this is the one that may keep the list short:

*Games that they don't ask the publishers for

I doubt they are reaching out to every publisher and going game by game. They are more just willing to listen to publishers that say "do game X" and may ask about game Y if game Y was voted high up on their feedback lists.
Click to expand...

Microsoft is a company with 70,000+ employees. I'm sure they can manage to ask every publisher about every game. Here's an email they can send to EA:

"To whom it may concern,

We would like to add the following list of non-delisted, non-Kinect games to our BC program:

<Insert full list of all non-delisted, non-Kinect EA games>

Which ones are okay to add, which ones aren't?"
 
Shrinnan said:
Shouldn't that even be easier for Microsoft to do than it was for this to happen? The Xbox One and original Xbox architecture are much more similar than the Xbox One and 360 architecture, unless I'm mistaken.
Click to expand...

The problem with the original xbone is NVidia. Since Ms doesn't own the design, they had to pay royalties for them for emulation.
 
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