I saw Bernie Sanders live in Madison tonight.

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Cheebo

Banned
The difference between Bernie and Clinton is bigger then the difference between Bradley and Gore.
My question for you is it is well agreed upon the next President may get as many as 4 Supreme Court nominees.

Wisconsin is traditionally a swing state.

Do you really want to help put in power 4 new conservative Supreme Court justices with your refusal to vote?
 

Foffy

Banned
I respect Bernie very much, but I'll vote for Hillary.

Corporatism is not all bad, but the GOP have certainly stained the concept for the past... 15 years? Fifty years?

Oh get the fuck out of here with this parasitic line of thought. Corporatism is what we have more than ever, and it's not working.

For it to change, we have to eliminate the greed of profit over prosperity. Prosperity has been thrown out of the window; the whole goal of companies in America is to literally make money and nothing else. In fact, real issues that get in the way of how one makes the money are almost always ignored in the conquest of paper and metal.

Corporatism is about the last thing we need in our metastasized capitalistic oligarchy today, for it's now locked into the idea of the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many.
 
Hillary Clinton will be our nominee.
Her ascendency will not be stopped, and any pretender attempting to take her place will be as a fridge magnet attempting to pull a cruise liner off course.
 
I wish more people would fight and bicker over votes for state, local, and congressional officials.

Goddamn, this. There's always good turnout on the presidential election, but the youth vote completely drops off the map during midterms. Because this happened during the 2010 election, Obama, and whatever Democrat in 2016 gets elected, has pretty much became lame ducks until maybe the 2020 election. If there were more Dems in Congress this last go-round, things like the TPP could have been prevented. This is without mentioning that various state legislatures have become GOP strongholds in the South and Midwest, and have been passing some of the worst laws imaginable.
 

fancimus

Member
Do you live in Wisconsin, OP? That's a pretty solidly blue state. Went 53-46 Obama in 2012, and I doubt demographics have changed in any other direction but more blue there since. If Sanders isn't on a ticket, you could probably vote for Jill Stein in 2016 and rest easy knowing it didn't change your state's outcome.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
Do you live in Wisconsin, OP? That's a pretty solidly blue state. Went 53-46 Obama in 2012, and I doubt demographics have changed in any other direction but more blue there since. If Sanders isn't on a ticket, you could probably vote for Jill Stein in 2016 and rest easy knowing it didn't change your state's outcome.

no its not. Its a lean blue state at best and a toss up at worse. It will be competitive.
 

Foffy

Banned
That's why we need Hillary, if we can add more we might be able to get the whole thing to tip over and capsize. Like Guam.

Part of me wishes we can come to our senses and act honestly and earnestly about our big problems, if only to avoid it all falling apart, creating chaos, and the chaos forcing change. This is why I want Bernie: he's simply humane and reasonable in his views. The problem? We're not in a humane and reasonable society, especially the political system itself. He can be speaking objective truths and we'd have a culture valuing the subjective impositions above any of that.

Unfortunately, our collective conscious is not reasonable, so it will be through collapse and chaos that things change. This is what will seemingly force us to deal with climate change and technological unemployment: not through reason to see the insolubility of our status quos, but ultimately the collapse and failures of them. I wish it didn't have to go that way, because I know too many people will suffer in that collapse because the way we think, live, and what we value as a society is all sorts of horseshit. ):
 
How can Hillary supporters, along with most head in the sand Dems, defend her record of doing what is convenient for her popularity? She's all talk with no substance to back up the American populace. Sure, she'll be for certain social issues, but she runs the same neo-liberal corporate welfare that Obama lets happen.
 
How can Hillary supporters, along with most head in the sand Dems, defend her record of doing what is convenient for her popularity? She's all talk with no substance to back up the American populace. Sure, she'll be for certain social issues, but she runs the same neo-liberal corporate welfare that Obama lets happen.

Don't worry. In the grand scheme of things...we're only 18 trillion in debt. 100 billion in corporate welfare each year is chump change.
 

Days like these...

Have a Blessed Day
Part of me wishes we can come to our senses and act honestly and earnestly about our big problems, if only to avoid it all falling apart, creating chaos, and the chaos forcing change. This is why I want Bernie: he's simply humane and reasonable in his views. The problem? We're not in a humane and reasonable society, especially the political system itself. He can be speaking objective truths and we'd have a culture valuing the subjective impositions above any of that.

Unfortunately, our collective conscious is not reasonable, so it will be through collapse and chaos that things change. This is what will seemingly force us to deal with climate change and technological unemployment: not through reason to see the insolubility of our status quos, but ultimately the collapse and failures of them. I wish it didn't have to go that way, because I know too many people will suffer in that collapse because the way we think, live, and what we value as a society is all sorts of horseshit. ):

This is exactly why I'm not sure I'll fall in line if Hillary gets the nomination.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
How can Hillary supporters, along with most head in the sand Dems, defend her record of doing what is convenient for her popularity? She's all talk with no substance to back up the American populace. Sure, she'll be for certain social issues, but she runs the same neo-liberal corporate welfare that Obama lets happen.

Most Democrats (and most Americans) aren't socialists. It only seems that way on the Internet.

Not that people are happy with the way things are, but they'd rather try to nudge things in the right direction while protecting what little slice of the pie they have, rather than agitate for disruptive changes.
 

smurfx

get some go again
That's a dumb philosophy.

Seriously, the next president will probably pick 2 of the supreme court justices.

We could be sitting on a conservative supreme court for like 30 fucking years because of people with that philosophy of yours.
any possible supreme court picks is enough for me to vote democrat. things can truly change for the good if hillary gets to replace 1 or 2 conservative judges.
 

Cheebo

Banned
It comes down to I would rather win with the moderate Democrat Hillary who will at least pick a few solid Supreme Court justices and protect Obamacare from being dismantled by a Republican congress over losing in a landslide with the more "pure" Bernie.

Well over 50% of the country(I believe the Gallup poll a few weeks back was even over 60%) consistently say they would never consider voting for a Socialist. Much higher numbers than even a aithest. Calling yourself a socialist in American politics is as toxic as calling yourself a communist.

I rather win and protect the progress Obama has made plus some good judges then lose a landslide with someone who is a better liberal.

It is that simple.

Politics in the end is about one thing. Winning.
 

Measley

Junior Member
LoL@ Anyone not voting because they think Clinton is more of the same. If you're tired of politics as usual, vote in the midterms and change congress.

If you don't vote this time, and let a Republican win, we're going to have a conservative- run executive, judicial, AND legislative branch.

In short, we'd be fucked.
 

Cheebo

Banned
Tom Brady posts here?
Politics has always been a sport about winning and losing.

When you forget that we get purity nominees like Goldwater.

If you don't win nothing matters. Republicans control Congress. If the GOP wins the White House the Supreme Court is going to be stacked with conservatives. And you can say goodbye to any of the progress we have made on health care.
 

Ecotic

Member
How can Hillary supporters, along with most head in the sand Dems, defend her record of doing what is convenient for her popularity? She's all talk with no substance to back up the American populace. Sure, she'll be for certain social issues, but she runs the same neo-liberal corporate welfare that Obama lets happen.

Ultimately I don't think Bernie Sanders can win and I doubt any Democrat besides someone like Bernie wouldn't be a neo-liberal who tacitly allows corporate welfare. I won't defend corporatism but I can live with it. In America you take a half loaf when you can get it.

I really do hope Bernie can get 30-40% of the vote and paves the way for mainstream Democrats to co-opt a lot of his platform 10 years from now.
 
Oh get the fuck out of here with this parasitic line of thought. Corporatism is what we have more than ever, and it's not working.

For it to change, we have to eliminate the greed of profit over prosperity. Prosperity has been thrown out of the window; the whole goal of companies in America is to literally make money and nothing else. In fact, real issues that get in the way of how one makes the money are almost always ignored in the conquest of paper and metal.

Corporatism is about the last thing we need in our metastasized capitalistic oligarchy today, for it's now locked into the idea of the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many.
I think that traditional liberalism has always been the buffer against the worst excesses of capitalism, but is powerless in actually evolving our system beyond capitalism. Without a fundamental change in how the economy is structured and how the rules of the economy work, without democratic participation in the economy and the workplace, all liberal reforms can and will be rolled back over time.
 
I find all the "OMG SOCIALISM!" talk from many of you absolutely hilarious. It's just like the stuff they threw against Obama with "marxist islamic communist" rhetoric. Bernie's "socialism" is by no means national socialist party of Germany.

Bernie's policies would help so much more than the wacky corporate and bank back scratching that Hillary would do.

I hate voting based on social policy when I know both sides favor corporate interests over public interests.
 

Xe4

Banned
I find all the "OMG SOCIALISM!" talk from many of you absolutely hilarious. It's just like the stuff they threw against Obama with "marxist islamic communist" rhetoric. Bernie's "socialism" is by no means national socialist party of Germany.

Bernie's policies would help so much more than the wacky corporate and bank back scratching that Hillary would do.

I hate voting based on social policy when I know both sides favor corporate interests over public interests.

Sanders calls himself a Socialist. Your analogy would work if Obama called himself a muslim or a marxist, then we would be having a conversation in 2008 about Obama being unelectable. Bernie may (very slimly possibly) get the primary election win, but he would get slaughtered in the general. Too many independants and conservative democrats would never even consider voting for him, whereas they would vote for Hillary. This is a fact. Please stop with the 2008 revisionism, please. Sander's run and Obama's run are nothing alike, aside from them both being underdogs.
 
All that needs to be put in the public eye is what Sanders' "socialism" truly is. Y'all need to stop with this boogeyman stuff.

I think it scares many die hard Hilary supporters how she isn't gaining tread, while Sanders continue to gain. Why bother getting behind a corporate welfare individual, but ignore the candidate that would truly benefit you?
 

Days like these...

Have a Blessed Day
Sanders calls himself a Socialist.

Well, at least the republicans can't use the term against him because he freely admits to being a democratic socialist. He won't have to expend time and energy denying it. Maybe just maybe American will realize socialist doesn't mean boogieman. Or is he too ahead of his time for 'Murica?
 

Xe4

Banned
All that needs to be put in the public eye is what Sanders' "socialism" truly is. Y'all need to stop with this boogeyman stuff.

I think it scares many die hard Hilary supporters how she isn't gaining tread, while Sanders continue to gain. Why bother getting behind a corporate welfare individual, but ignore the candidate that would truly benefit you?

Ok, you can belelive that, but it doesn't make it true. It doesn't matter what points Sanders raises, it doesn't matter how well he debates, how much he invigorates the base, or how well he explains what his definition of Socialism is. All Jeb, or whatever canidate comes up will do is run attack ads that he wants to bring socialism to America. It would actually be pretty easy. Seeing as Sanders wouldn't have as much money, the ads he would put out would be less frequent and probably less vicious as well. He would be drowned in a sea of misinformation and propoganda, and would loose in a landslide.

I'm saying this as a person who loves Sanders, and would love to see him as president. But I'm also a realist. I know Sanders has no chance of winning. Hell, he knows he has no chance of winning. Sanders is doing this so that he can exite the youth and make his platform viable so that in 10-20 years another canidate can run and possibly win. But that will never happen if people are so upset at Hillary being the nominee that they throw away their vote and the Republicans win, reversing the last eight years of progress.
 

Zeus Molecules

illegal immigrants are stealing our air
It comes down to I would rather win with the moderate Democrat Hillary who will at least pick a few solid Supreme Court justices and protect Obamacare from being dismantled by a Republican congress over losing in a landslide with the more "pure" Bernie.

Well over 50% of the country(I believe the Gallup poll a few weeks back was even over 60%) consistently say they would never consider voting for a Socialist. Much higher numbers than even a aithest. Calling yourself a socialist in American politics is as toxic as calling yourself a communist.

I rather win and protect the progress Obama has made plus some good judges then lose a landslide with someone who is a better liberal.

It is that simple.

Politics in the end is about one thing. Winning.

Its funny I thought you would of ended it with

"Politics in the end is about one thing. Compromise."

However beyond that I agree with what you said.
 

leroidys

Member
The 5-4 gay marriage vote just reinforces it... I have to vote D for the next presidential election essentially no matter what. The SC and presidency are becoming the only branches of government of real importance, as continued congressional intransigence leads to power being diverted outside of the legislature.
 
Obviously he'll get a bump as they debate and get more publicity, he is still pretty unknown. What are the odds he will get the VP?
 

Xe4

Banned
Obviously he'll get a bump as they debate and get more publicity, he is still pretty unknown. What are the odds he will get the VP?

Pretty low. VP spots are about diversifying the ticket. Get popular someone from Florida, Virginia, Ohio or some other state to increase votes in swing states. Bernie is from Vermont, not really a contentious state.
 

Lemaitre

Banned
This thread does a great job at demonstrating why politics suck, and why 2016 will be so mediocre.

It's like sports except it lasts much longer. Everyone thinks they know what they are talking about. Everyone gets hot and bothered. What a time.
 

rjinaz

Member
This thread does a great job at demonstrating why politics suck, and why 2016 will be so mediocre.

It's like sports expect it lasts much longer. Everyone thinks they know what they are talking about. Everyone gets hot and bothered. What a time.

Yeah it's like baseball in the late 90s early 00s. Everybody already knew at the start of each season it was going to be the Yankees. I don't remember the last time there were surprises in the presidential candidacy. I guess Obama to a point but, I saw that coming.
 

Foffy

Banned
I think that traditional liberalism has always been the buffer against the worst excesses of capitalism, but is powerless in actually evolving our system beyond capitalism. Without a fundamental change in how the economy is structured and how the rules of the economy work, without democratic participation in the economy and the workplace, all liberal reforms can and will be rolled back over time.

Couple this with automation, which forces participation in an economy and a workforce to withdraw, and you have an acceleration of the reforms for better rights and conditions. We're slowly seeing that.

For the whole system to change, we kind of have to address an elephant in the room: money isn't real. It's a social idea, an invention of the mind and nothing else. We confuse this as wealth, and that dogma grows large. For example, many people hilariously believe money is a motivator for humans to do good in the world, or to even do anything. Look at any other living thing and you can see motivation without the need of paper, but when its value is assumed to be objective, shitbrained thinking occurs. Furthermore, people also believe money makes things happen. This is like a clock making the sun rise because the clock says 6 AM. That's getting the whole concept dead wrong. We say we need money as it's an improvement over barter, but it's still a social imposition to actual wealth; the real resources of the earth. For this to be allowed as a system of reason and justness, we have to acknowledge in a system that agrees to use money as the token of information, this simply must be offered to people on sincere, reasonable grounds. It is a human right to offer it to all as a guarantee because we say it's what we use in our system. By demanding rules on how one 'earns' the token, you all but assure abuse and a have not. Linking it to labor is a dying idea in the 21st century, and most people fail to acknowledge that. This is of course failing to address how a few have so much of it, but they're in the business of making money over wealth, a byproduct of such dogma. All because our system says the whole point of human life is to make human paper. It's kind of funny in a sad way, for all of our modern successes are made on modern ignorance. It's like we're accomplishing a lot while having one hand purposefully tied behind our back as we do things.

People really are too stupid to get that illusion in exactly the same way people are ignore-ant on the illusion of self, which that illusion has produced most human suffering on this earth. I'd argue the latter combines with the former and the entire human game of duality creates the mess we have today, and that is a topic far fuckin' beyond this topic, but I can explain more in PM or elsewhere. To simply put it, we live as it's self versus other, to promote conflict and competition that's bred in violent one-upmanship. You have to be better than that other motherfucker because goddamnit, if you don't you're fucked out of being able to feed your family. This Bronze Age thinking really has no place in the developed world. Instead, because self and other go together, it's self and other, which should produce a system of cooperation for as many as we can reasonably sustain on resources or in systems based on resources. We have a long way to go as a collective humanity to bypass these illusions. Religion and especially the illusion of free will get in the way of seeing the world as it is, with no ego and duality inferred upon it. So long as the idea of duality is inferred upon as a concrete idea, both internally and externally, we will always be making mistakes. Most of the world gets this wrong, so this is not an American-exclusive problem, but a problem we ought to address, for the betterment of society and human life as a whole.

We're only going to get change at this rate with violence, for Americans are caught in a situation of settling for less and not pushing the bar far enough. The collective consciousness of the citizenry has to get to a point that settling won't work and lead to a revolt. I wage that change happening on climate change and deep learning automation making an environment and economy hospitable for so much of the human labor force that this leads to protests and potentially violence. This wombo combo will effectively powerbomb the middle class, and not just in this country, thankfully. Playing corporatism literally pushes us in this direction and makes it go faster, and this is what I fear most. This scenario seems inevitable, yet absolutely illogical to reason as "yeah, sounds about right for it to happen this way". We also have no safety net to speak of for the automation problem, so the level of suffering will be greatly expanded. Perhaps that suffering will be a catalyst for the reformation we as human beings need in a world that has to come back to its senses.
 
I'm kinda beating myself up for being a registered Independent. Means I can't vote for Bernie in the primaries :(

You can change it very easily. I'll be temporarily changing my party registration to Republican for the Iowa Caucuses, as I see little reason to bother with the Democratic side as Hilldawg has it locked up.

The only question is who to vote for. They're all equally terrible, but I'm leaning towards Cruz. I voted for Cain in 2012, even after he had dropped out. Good god that guy was a riot.
 
I'd vote for Bernie. No doubt. But...

I'm not convinced he's a viable candidate yet, usually the outsiders get blown up by The Man somewhere along the way.
 

rjinaz

Member
Bernie just seems so sincere about what he is saying. You can tell he's not just spouting what he knows others want to hear so he will get elected. I love watching his speeches and I don't think I've ever said that about a politician not even Obama.
 
D

Deleted member 13876

Unconfirmed Member
Bernie just seems so sincere about what he is saying. You can tell he's not just spouting what he knows others want to hear so he will get elected. I love watching his speeches and I don't think I've ever said that about a politician not even Obama.

Watching this speech, he seems to be firing on all cilinders:

Single Payer Health Care
No Tuition Education
Breaking up institutions that are too big too fail
Renewable energy
More gender wage gap inequality
Sincerely anti-TPP, as opposed to this candidate:
Better working conditions for Americans
etc

Of course, it would be a gargantuan challenge to actually push all of this true, but it legitimately seems he is willing to fight his hardest for it as opposed to providing lip service.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Watching this speech, he seems to be firing on all cilinders:

Single Payer Health Care
No Tuition Education
Breaking up institutions that are too big too fail
Renewable energy
More gender wage gap inequality
Sincerely anti-TPP, as opposed to this candidate:
Better working conditions for Americans
etc

Of course, it would be a gargantuan challenge to actually push all of this true, but it legitimately seems he is willing to fight his hardest for it as opposed to providing lip service.

Bernie has some really great and noble ideas but the challenge is how does one implement such "radical" changes over 4-8 years rather than a couple of decades.
 
Bernie has some really great and noble ideas but the challenge is how does one implement such "radical" changes over 4-8 years rather than a couple of decades.
He's trying to motivate people to get involved locally and regionally and to not let up on the pressure after he's elected.
 
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