Oh really? I played that and it was completely fine. Huh, interesting.
Steam Controller trailer, $50
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I don't know man. Ever try to snipe a teammate in Halo? It's.... really hard and not fun.
Seriously. Analog triggers seemed like it would be this great thing but in reality, only a very few games in the history of analog triggers actually used the functionality. At least we can choose with the steam controller.
I use right stick to control throttle and brake all the time. It isn't hard, really. Basically every racing game has a "look behind" button. And you generally only look to the sides if you aren't trying to look behind you. It isn't nearly as cumbersome as you make it seem.
Refreshment.01
Member
Since this is pertinent to the disscussion i was having, i want to point out again for this new page that i was saying you can brake with the R stick and Accelerate with L stick. So like i said earlier there's no need to have multiple functions for each stick.
Analog triggers have a really big range of possibilities but people tend to stick to the racing genre as the definitive proof of their advanatges. When in reality with the input systems in most controllers this days, the analog function of triggers is not as vital as people seem to think.
Also it will be great to play some Fzero with the Steam controller using the paddles to control the turns .
No, but the first appearance of multiple modern auto-aim techniques implemented in a game (Halo) is also the one game credited with truly popularizing shooters on consoles.
That's not a coincidence, it tells us pretty much everything we need to know about aiming with a thumbstick.
The Red Wizard
Member
Like these?
Yes. These are the ones I bought due to a recommendation earlier in the thread. They are far better than any if the batteries I have used before
The Red Wizard
Member
Excellent. How do you charge them?
The ones I bought came with the charger
Sir Abacus
Member
Pioneered? I lost many a game of 007 on the N64 because I would play like a PC gamer, lead my shots while all my friends would let the auto aim do its thing.
Please reread the post you are replying to. Goldeneye did not adjust its look sensitivity on the fly to make it easier to stay on target. The auto-aim in that game simply adjusted the angle of your shots to hit the center of a target if it was within a certain distance from the center of the screen. You could even see the gun animate to show it happening.
grandwizard
Member
A recent example of how entrenched people are into the aim assistance framework is to look at the uproar over a recent patch for Halo CE in the Master Chief Collection that unintentionally reduced the bullet magnetism. It ended up with this:
To a PC player nothing was wrong in this gif, it appeared to me like a good example of their hitboxes not being oversized. To console and Halo players the game was now completely broken, because shots that they were used to being 100% hits (despite not actually being on target) were now whiffing completely. You can check the thread for yourself.
To a PC player nothing was wrong in this gif, it appeared to me like a good example of their hitboxes not being oversized. To console and Halo players the game was now completely broken, because shots that they were used to being 100% hits (despite not actually being on target) were now whiffing completely. You can check the thread for yourself.
Those shots are definitely a hit, even for a PC gamerA recent example of how entrenched people are into the aim assistance framework is to look at the uproar over a recent patch for Halo CE in the Master Chief Collection that unintentionally reduced the bullet magnetism. It ended up with this:
To a PC player nothing was wrong in this gif, it appeared to me like a good example of their hitboxes not being oversized. To console and Halo players the game was now completely broken, because shots that they were used to being 100% hits (despite not actually being on target) were now whiffing completely. You can check the thread for yourself.
Mine came with a charger and 6 batteries for 25 dollars. I probably paid more because they were Apple branded though. I use them for my Xbox controllers and they're amazing. They're why I wish my Dualshock controller allowed the option too.
grandwizard
Member
A recent example of how entrenched people are into the aim assistance framework is to look at the uproar over a recent patch for Halo CE in the Master Chief Collection that unintentionally reduced the bullet magnetism. It ended up with this:
To a PC player nothing was wrong in this gif, it appeared to me like a good example of their hitboxes not being oversized. To console and Halo players the game was now completely broken, because shots that they were used to being 100% hits (despite not actually being on target) were now whiffing completely. You can check the thread for yourself.
Ugh that is just not fun with a controller.
I would have thought the shortcomings of controllers and the need to rig the experience to achieve a frustrating-free level of "fun" to be all but common knowledge. I assume it has been mentioned in this discussion at some point, but it isn't limited to aim-assist techniques, but core-design too.
Everything from slowing down the player, ADS, reduced recoil, heavily assisted melee, etc. are core FPS design staples for controllers. Across melee-focused titles it's rare to see the player given full control over their actions. Lock-on and automated targeting is vastly more abundant than allowing the player to "aim" their attacks.
Aside from the genres and scenarios where analogue control is fundamental such as driving, piloting, etc. I don't particularly like to see game design streamlined and simplified to accommodate an input method when much better alternatives exist. Not to mention the negative effects to user-interface design. Even in the two most popular genres where analogue is necessary, better alternatives exist: Racing Wheels and HOTAS. That said, the Steam Controller looks like it could solve a lot of those issues. It may not be as good as a mouse and keyboard, but perhaps close enough to not force design changes relative to mouse and keyboard.
Everything from slowing down the player, ADS, reduced recoil, heavily assisted melee, etc. are core FPS design staples for controllers. Across melee-focused titles it's rare to see the player given full control over their actions. Lock-on and automated targeting is vastly more abundant than allowing the player to "aim" their attacks.
Aside from the genres and scenarios where analogue control is fundamental such as driving, piloting, etc. I don't particularly like to see game design streamlined and simplified to accommodate an input method when much better alternatives exist. Not to mention the negative effects to user-interface design. Even in the two most popular genres where analogue is necessary, better alternatives exist: Racing Wheels and HOTAS. That said, the Steam Controller looks like it could solve a lot of those issues. It may not be as good as a mouse and keyboard, but perhaps close enough to not force design changes relative to mouse and keyboard.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
I'm really excited to see how the trackball is simulated. That's the kind of mouse I've used for over a decade.
Already preordered mine.
Already preordered mine.
A recent example of how entrenched people are into the aim assistance framework is to look at the uproar over a recent patch for Halo CE in the Master Chief Collection that unintentionally reduced the bullet magnetism. It ended up with this:
To a PC player nothing was wrong in this gif, it appeared to me like a good example of their hitboxes not being oversized. To console and Halo players the game was now completely broken, because shots that they were used to being 100% hits (despite not actually being on target) were now whiffing completely. You can check the thread for yourself.
Well, yeah, if playing on a console one would expect aim assist and bullet magnetism or whatever to be present nowadays, right? What's the problem? If I'm playing on console I assume it's there, if I'm playing on PC I assume it's not since I'm using a KB & Mouse and not a Gamepad.
I'm curious to see how this steam controller performs in regards to FPS game. I used to be all about the KB & M growing up, but I've been on console too long @_@. Something like this could be right up my alley!
uncharted: Golden Abyss and Killzone Mercenary had nice solutions for controls, and I'm disappointed more PS4 shooters don't support that - at least as an option. Right stick is for gross mouselook movements, backed up with a gyro for fine tuning. Really enjoyed that way of controlling.
lukeskymac
Member
Especially since the DS4 has a gyro as well as improved accelerometers.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this way. People unanimously criticize Nintendo's digital triggers but I prefer it that way by a wide margin. It gives a faster, more responsive press in 95% of the games an average player will buy. How often are people really playing racers vs. every other kind of game?
Trying rapid trigger pulls in a shooter or pulling off precise dodges in Bayonetta/Wonderful 101 or long jumps /rolls in Mario is bullshit with an analog trigger. It's not difficult, but it's more imprecise and sluggish than digital.
Analog triggers are also a pain in the ass for retro games. I tried the DS4 to play Super Metroid on my PC and immediately went back to the Wii U Pro; I map run to the L button, and holding the tension on an analog trigger for an entire play session is surprisingly fatiguing.
Obviously analog triggers have their uses, but I really resent having them take the first priority trigger spots on every controller when they're used a minority of the time. It would be great if controllers were designed for the index fingers to naturally rest on the digital triggers instead of the analogs; I can imagine smaller analog triggers replacing the bumpers on 360/One/U Pro style controllers without a problem.
The Control Freak hack is a godsend for that game. It gives you GBA Metroid-like controls and autorun. I wish someone would make autorun hacks for all the 2D Mario games so I don't have to hold Y for the whole game :E
Crayon
Member
This is why the dual shock 3 is my favorite.
The Steam Controller will be great to play something like Final Fantasy VII. We could map it a way that the run button is also pressed when you move the character.
The problem in doing that with Mario is that the power-up would be activated everytime we starting moving or when we changed directions.
I almost cancelled my early pre-order for October thinking that since i mainly game on my pc and not a comfy couch i really did not need the steam controller but two things happened. One, i was playing Rocket League with a logitech pad and it fucked up my finger to the point i have not been able to game for a week which sucks. And two, you guys have single handedly kept my enthusiasm for the controller alive, so kudos to Neogaf and fuck you to Logitech and it's shitty controller.
Crayon
Member
My gut reaction is that they're trying to fix something that wasn't broken. It seems compromised and I have concerns, based on watching it, that it could posess neither the comfort and playability of a controller or the accuracy of a mouse. We'll see, I guess, if/when I get one.
Analog sticks can get easily broken tho (especially if you're running a lot in CoD). If they had the reliability of a dpad then i would probably agree with you.
YEAH
Wh..what is that?
I have the exact opposite reaction. Civ5, Darkest Dungeon, Cities Skylines, Sunless Sea, Deus Ex, HL, FTL, Total War, System Shock 2, Fallout, and the myriad of other mouse and keyboard games are now playable with a controller. That defines fixing a problem in terms of playing in the lounge or anywhere else without have to have both a mouse and keyboard solution, which is cumbersome without a desk solution. Attempting to play these games with a traditional Controller is a broken experience. Playing TF2, CSGO etc and actually having a playable experience while being competent is huge for being able to have PC gaming not be confined to a desk. The added bonus of having close to mouse / trackball movement in current controller centric games is also pretty damn great as it improves the experience easily. MGSGZ for me is the prime example of why mouse like control and precision for aiming and turning is far better than an analogue stick. Movement flexibility is where analogue sticks shine, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear that the track pads can emulate that well once a person is accustomed to it, as some of the GAF testers have said.
Crowd sourced binding and complete flexibility to customise the controller to a game and individual needs is exactly the kind of solution suited to PC gaming. In the end this is what it is all about - PC gaming - which needs this solution to not require a form of desk, but also isn't enforced as a standard in keeping with the flexibility and choice individuals have when using PCs.
As far as comfort of the controller goes, I'm keen to stress how different the controller is shaped. They position your thumbs very differently with raised handles above the controls rather than the flat and downward angle of normal controllers. It makes comparisons to traditional controller and their button layouts pretty poor until more people try it. That said from what has been said so far, it is not an issue.
A recent example of how entrenched people are into the aim assistance framework is to look at the uproar over a recent patch for Halo CE in the Master Chief Collection that unintentionally reduced the bullet magnetism. It ended up with this:
To a PC player nothing was wrong in this gif, it appeared to me like a good example of their hitboxes not being oversized. To console and Halo players the game was now completely broken, because shots that they were used to being 100% hits (despite not actually being on target) were now whiffing completely. You can check the thread for yourself.
Agreed, the only thing wrong with that GIF is how the player, once the magnetism kicks in, entirely stops aiming with their view.
Using a keyboard and mouse on the couch is absolutely broken.
A recent example of how entrenched people are into the aim assistance framework is to look at the uproar over a recent patch for Halo CE in the Master Chief Collection that unintentionally reduced the bullet magnetism. It ended up with this:
To a PC player nothing was wrong in this gif, it appeared to me like a good example of their hitboxes not being oversized. To console and Halo players the game was now completely broken, because shots that they were used to being 100% hits (despite not actually being on target) were now whiffing completely. You can check the thread for yourself.
This exactly why Killzone gets such a bad reception from so many console gamers. They are so use to carving up on other FPS games, and are shocked when they don't place at the top of the table in Killzone. Since I come from PC for shooters I have no problem registering non hits
Not completely broken but it does require one to change your setup
alexandros
Banned
Great post.
Tarin02543
Member
Great post indeed, sums up my feelings exactly. I have not preordered yet but will definitely buy the controller + steamlink bundle in November.
Finally we can play pc games in our living room!
RealityCheque
Banned
Valve should pin this post to the store page for the controller. Completely sums up why I pre-ordered.
If you have to change your setup, it's broken.
Besides, I've tried changing my setup, and while it can "work", it's still not comfortable. It's not what I want.
The point remains, this was a problem that needed solving.
alexandros
Banned
And let's not underestimate the fact that many PC gamers love their PC classics. All those fantastic games from years or even decades ago will be playable with a controller, how enormously cool is that? Tons of RPGs, adventure games and strategy titles
will finally be accessible from the couch. Who ever thought a day would come when we would get retroactive controller support for the entirety of the PC's massive games catalog? It blows my mind just thinking about it!
Kamakazie!
Member
I may be missing something but if both sticks are used this way, what do you use to steer?
Using the sticks to accelerate/break is a nightmare anyway. The reason the triggers are used for this is because it's far easier to control the amount of pressure with triggers than with the sticks. I remember because when the original analog controller for the psx came out I tried playing gran tourismo that way.
