dave is ok
aztek is ok
Someone is pushing this narrative that Bernie Sanders doesn't talk about race when it's patently false, yet people are eating it up.
Black Lives Matter disrupts Martin OMalley, Bernie Sanders town hall
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PhoenixDark
Banned
In what world does speaking about criminal justice reform not qualify as speaking about "racial issues" in 2015?
Those are great and I wish he did more of that instead of getting defensive when asked about why he hasn't done more to address race.
What does Hillary have to do with anything?
I didn't mean that he never speaks on racial issues (there was supposed to be "enough" after "issues") but the fact is, race and racism is not his focus. He thinks that changing economic policy will be enough and it has never been enough, which is why there are black voters who aren't embracing him with open arms.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
It doesn't shield him from criticism but the criticism is oddly placed. He's obviously on the side of racial equality. This is why their interruption is odd. You can be critical but you also have to be mindful you're biting someone who's on your side.
Interfectum
Member
In a world full of people ignorant of Sanders but still feel the need to spout an opinion on him.
Interfectum
Member
He's getting defensive because he doesn't give drive by politics a soundbite? Read what he's actually saying and what he plans to do instead of Twitter hashtags.
Big Baybee
Member
I really don't get going hard at Bernie about racial issues of all things. I think folks have more of an issue with his supporters than Bernie himself.
ArchedThunder
Banned
What the hell are you talking about?
It's fine for them to protest just like it's fine for him to leave. The protestors obviously didnt want anybody to speak, no reason to stay there at that point, just let the protestors do their thing
No this is the disconnect between idiots and people who aren't. Protesting someone that long advocated against police brutality, supported affirmative action and incentivized social policies for the bottom mean you don't understand shit about the real world and you just care about a particular topic while being myopic to all the things that are around it.
And for your information, a politician can't do much about people trashing resumees because of "ethnic" names, but he can ensure that the playing field is as even as possible with other measures. Racism is a matter of public perception first, economics second (which of course feedback in the first) and politics last. Economics and politics however can ensure that the effect of racists/prejudice on the society is diminished as much as possible, and as time passes, and public perception change, those effects will eventually disappear like they did for many other "minorities".
But let's throw the opportunity away because "he don't understand what it mean to be a black liberal". Fuck off with that shit. With any other candidate you're getting more money for the richs and you're gonna be happy because Sanders was just "another bourgeois old white man that don't understand us blacks, thanks god we elected corporate puppet n°1564".
The biggest enemy of black people in america is american's warped perception of what a "society" should be, with everyone for himself. A vision of society that, what a coincidence i'd say, serve only to preserve the status quo and keep the richs aboves the others, and black people on the very bottom because bootstraps and we can't afford dirty socialism in the USA.
TBGWT (The Black Guy Who Tips podcast) went in on Bernie yesterday.
As Jmood88 said and I agree, . I think he makes the mistake of thinking that economic problems trump everything else and will fix everything.
I think he is the best of the candidates but he needs to come a little harder on the social justice front.
He may have marched in the 60s but what you gonna do in the future. He should have said instead of stumbling all over himself.
As Jmood88 said and I agree, . I think he makes the mistake of thinking that economic problems trump everything else and will fix everything.
I think he is the best of the candidates but he needs to come a little harder on the social justice front.
He may have marched in the 60s but what you gonna do in the future. He should have said instead of stumbling all over himself.
PhoenixDark
Banned
jmood sounding like a drive by poster, citing "twitter" as his source. Get outta here with that shit, son.
But remember, police violence is the only issue effecting the black community so that quote doesn't count.
Did he address minority issues as a problem all on its own though, or more a symptom of a larger problem, that being income inequality?
Vox made this point
http://www.vox.com/2015/7/20/9001639/bernie-sanders-black-lives-matter
Why do you need to be mindful of who is on your side? If he's an ally, then he'll be an ally if someone is protesting or not. If people interrupting him at an event all of a sudden causes him to change his mind and think that there shouldn't be anything done to help minorities, then he was never an ally to begin with.
i feel that it's kind of a cowardly way out of the situation. could he have stood up there and debated what they were saying? sure, that's what i would've liked but i guess he had to play his cards right and not add fuel to the fire. at least not until it gets closer to the election
Interfectum
Member
Uh what? He didn't change his mind. What narrative are you trying to form in your head?
That Vox article is spot on. Bernie is trying to heal the festering would of our school systems, mass incarceration, and economic gaps, rather than specifically talk about body cams or punishment for police departments.
He needs to realize that he's got to hit a FEW of the talking points that blacks in America want addressed. Even if Bernie made all his changes, and they remained in place for years to come, it would take decades to reap the rewards.
He needs to realize that he's got to hit a FEW of the talking points that blacks in America want addressed. Even if Bernie made all his changes, and they remained in place for years to come, it would take decades to reap the rewards.
Read this article earlier. It is absolutely amazing, and gets at what fellow poster jmood is talking about in this very thread.
Read the post again, then respond.
PhoenixDark
Banned
So what policies should he support that end white supremacy and racism? Lord knows I can't think of any.
Seeing racial inequality as a symptom of another, deeper problem, doesn't mean that you don't think that racial problems don't exists. It means that you actually think that the best way to address it is not to ask people to stop being racists, but to remove a big reason of why that racism exist in the first place: perception.
Sanders is acting on the assumption that what worked for other minorities, them being more integrated in the economics of society, would work for blacks too. Punishing the police for its brutality won't do shit if half of black youth don't work and has to resort to crime to get food on their tables, because whoever work in the police will always have the perception that it's always the black guys who act against the law, and they'll still be racists by perception.
Why do you think whites are percieved better? Because most white people you know and see are successfull, and as such, anyone that didn't succedeed in his life was not representative of white people, but the exception. The complete opposite is true of minority. When all you see are minority illegal vendors on the streets, suddendly it's the history of the successfull minority person that is the "exception".
This is like what should happen on television, with minorities more represented, but ten times more important, because it's fuckign real life. But no, apparently this isn't good enough, it will never be.
I don't know does he? Here's Bernie in front of a huge crowd of white people. Stick around to the 20 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsWf0TuM6AA&t=17m30s
Subpar Spatula
Banned
The mindful part is about being smart with your protests. Bernie won't drop his cause because of this. It shows a lack of homework on the protestors part more than anything. All this shows is a group of protestors are willing to go after someone helping them.
In the article one of the people tried to respond but got interrupted quite speedily, it was pretty obvious this wasnt going to turn into anything beyond just a protest at that stage, and while he could sit there for a while trying to shout down people who are interrupting him, I feel it was better of him to give those people their stage and let them take it over.
all they wanted were some answers. was he not there to tell people his solutions? why get flustered when people start getting worked up about the topics you feel so strongly about?
My point is, I think Bernie has the right idea, in that he's interesting in fundamentally improving America one generation at a time by bringing some true equality to the country.
Beyond that, things CAN be done and SHOULD be done, like requiring 100% of police to wear body cams and be punished for turning them off, etc. There are stop-gap policies that we can use to improve our society until we fix the things that are eating us alive from the inside out.
Except there is absolutely no evidence showing that economic policies can solve racism. Every big liberal economic policy has resulted in black people lagging behind while whites reap the benefits because this country was literally and figuratively built through racism.
thats the problem is "#" causes. They really dont have a real message or direction. Its a train wreck. It just a bunch of "noise."
Not even letting the people speak after asking them questions.
then talking about we have to burn this place down should have been arrested.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
It's about being able to have some dialogue. It was better he just gave them the stage. Bernie didn't call security, he left and gave them an opportunity to speak.
Interfectum
Member
We've yet to see an economic liberal in the White House in our lifetime. Sanders would be the first.
If they wanted answers they wouldve allowed the initial person to speak, which they didn't
They wanted to go in, cause a ruckus and makes news. Bernie had two options, stay and try to argue with them when he would never have the chance to, or just leave and allow the protestors to protest
But this is the Bernie Sanders problem. If you support Bernie, you're not supporting him for his policies, you're supporting him for his philosophy (as you are when you support just about any fringe candidate; they're a fringe candidate for a reason). So I think it makes sense to question the whole "it's not race, it's class" strain of liberal thought with regards to Bernie.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Why would Clinton be better than Sanders on issues of race, given their voting histories and past actions? I think the Vox article has some points about why Sanders' focuses aren't sufficient for some racial equality activists, but it's pretty non-comparative. Sanders isn't running against some hypothetical idealized candidate, he's running against Hillary Clinton, whose position is not dissimilar to Sanders and who has a worse voting record on racial equality [1, 2] according to the NAACP's rankings. Obviously Sanders can stand to do better, but he still seems the preferable option for non-white voters in terms of beneficial policy outcomes.
While it's certainly true that economic issues are his primary concern, he still addresses racial issues on their own. From the link I post, he specifically states that "we need broad changes in the way that our country approaches law enforcement". No matter how you look at it, crashing a Bernie Sanders town hall isn't an effective use of protesting.
O'Malley, on the other hand, certainly deserves to be grilled over his time as mayor of Balitmore, but a generalized #BlackLivesMatter protest doesn't do that.
That would mean something if liberals never had power in this country.
Yea I didn't mean to suggest he doesn't view race as a problem (my fault for inartful wording). More that, at least according to the article, he sees it as a problem that has a larger deeper cause. But what these activists are pointing out is that the problems of race injustice are not just symptoms of another problem like income inequality, but is itself a systemic issue that has to be dealt with on its own terms.
Interfectum
Member
social vs economic
Clinton and Obama can throw out social justice bones to keep their liberal cred while continuing to push corporate agendas economically. Sanders is a true progressive both socially and economically.
I would recommend you to actually watch the video. They didn't even let him speak out because they were busy shouting their slogans. They were utterly disrespectful and clearly weren't interested what Mr. Sanders thought.
Not that this really has anything to do with what I was talking about but what do you honestly think he would get done with a republican house and senate?
Again, what does Hillary (or Obama) have to do with anything. I'm really tired of every criticism of Bernie Sanders being refuted with "but Hillary is worse!". Yeah, Hillary sucks, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to sit back and not challenge Bernie.
Train of Midnight
Banned
The black woman who was on stage was saying that now candidates need to do their homework about the issues, I think these protesters need to do their homework about the candidates.
specifically Bernie, idk the other guy
Interfectum
Member
I'm talking about Bill Clinton.
You are saying that progressive economic polices haven't helped black people in the past. I'm saying we haven't had a president with the balls to push truly progressive economic policies in our lifetime so we simply don't know how much it would end up helping minorities. I'd say give the man a shot.
PhoenixDark
Banned
From this perspective, all policies would be stop gap measures because white supremacy and racism aren't going anywhere, anytime soon. My view is that the burden of proof should be on detractors to explain why criminal justice reform, loan reforms, body cams for cops, increased education spending, fair housing, renewing the VRA, etc won't benefit black people. All of which Sanders supports.
I think Sanders detractors are confusing this with the typical "liberal" compromises that sell black people short. Sanders isn't that candidate - which is partially why he won't win the nomination btw. If you want to have a discussion about black people being betrayed by liberals, perhaps most of the fire should be aimed at Hillary Clinton.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
That's fair enough, but I think it is worth pointing out that it is probable that Sanders' policies would still be better for non-white Americans than any other major candidate in the current American presidential race. Sanders' profile is low enough among minority voters that criticizing him without including that context (that we know, but others might not), just damages his capacity to make an impact in this vital electoral group and thus an impact on national dialogue.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
RE: "Why protest Bernie" -- in part because as Yeezus correctly noted, Scott Walker doesn't care about Black people. It makes more sense to protest the people you think are sympathetic but not doing enough than to protest the people who absolutely don't have a chance in hell of doing anything or ever listening to you ever. With Bernie (not that he's going to win, but I don't think that should be important), you have a real chance of reminding him not to wimp out on his principles or settle for incrementalism where wider change is possible.
This is just the pragmatist/idealist divide restated. Idealists would rather risk losing incremental progress if it means a shot at radical progress; pragmatists would rather secure compromise and gradual progress. It's weird that in this situation, Sanders is the example of a pragmatist when in virtually every other context he's supported by individuals who are tired of tepid pragmatism and wanting someone to lead through ideas.
This is just the pragmatist/idealist divide restated. Idealists would rather risk losing incremental progress if it means a shot at radical progress; pragmatists would rather secure compromise and gradual progress. It's weird that in this situation, Sanders is the example of a pragmatist when in virtually every other context he's supported by individuals who are tired of tepid pragmatism and wanting someone to lead through ideas.
Big social economic policies in america? The home of bootstrap, fuck you, got mine? The sole existence of your healthcare is basically saying that whoever don't have money can die and we don't give a shit.
America social policies are a joke compared to what actually should be enabled to fight this problem.
The problem was NEVER faced this way because all the propaganda about the "american dream" was basically all shit to keep the poors, and by associations, the blacks, down the ladder of society, selling them hope and taking their future in exchange.
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