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[SolVanderlyn]

Is it time to update this with a 4th snake?

He needs to be photoshopped in at the last minute

I can understand the feeling of the game being incomplete from the lack of closure on the Eli/Sahelanthropous story just fucking right off, but the rest is pretty solid and well wrapped up when you realize TPP is just a tool to set up the time line as understood in MGS4.

It explains Grey Fox's absence, why he would go to Outter Heaven, and why he would be on Big Boss's side in Zanzibar Land.

It explains why miller would suddenly be present in MG2 instead of being part of Intrude N313, and makes a lot of sense on how Liquid and Ocelot would know about miller and want to kill him for MGS.

It shows how Big Boss descended into madness while also staying the greatest fucking saint in the world. Phantom Big Boss went renegade after that PTSD from the Quarantine chamber, while real Big Boss kept working in the background to oppose Donald Anderson's new Patriots.

Throughout all of this, it managed to do the twist reveal extremely well, the only shitty part was plying through that entire mssion again instead of breezing through or just doing the important bits. The signs were all there if you were looking for them: Ishmael's voice, abilities, and comments, Snake not knowing Russian which he was extremely fluent in (Which Ocelot tries to cover it up with a lie?), Phantom Big Boss had no real reaction to the Boss's voice, while real Big Boss would have had a PTSD attack, Volgin suddenly backs off when getting up close and personal with Phantom Big Boss because he realizes it's not his enemy, the DNA test was a 0% match for someone we knew was obviously Big Boss's clone.

Also, Quiet knew the whole time that she was dealing with Phantom Big Boss. She knew it wasn't Big Boss when she was sent to assassinate the real one, claiming the guy next to the real one saw her face and then proceeded to strangle him face to facel, getting a good look at the fact Phantom Big Boss had a damn horn. Years later, she'd fail to kill him again. He spared her, stopped her from committing suicide, abducted her, and was literally the only person to treat her like a human being on all of Mother Base. You have Lima and Stockholm Syndrome at work here, on top of Phantom Big Boss being a pretty decent guy all around, rich, powerful, charismatic, and supremely confident. They even work together a lot on the field sharing foxholes together so to speak. Hell, with all that I'd want to fuck the man too.

Overall, it's a great story that's true to the MGS themes. It's disjointed in its presentation, and left a little incomplete following the shitstorm at Konami. Just because it was told poorly, which was possibly out of Kojia's hands due to working conditions, doesn't mean you can't step away and appreciate how well constructed it is. TPP sets a rock solid foundation for future events, and had an ending that will stick with most of us forever.

This is a fantastic post. This game fills in many, many holes in the timeline. They may not be the holes people expected or wanted, but it's not a throwaway plot at all.

 

[plebegamer]

He feels guilty about something Big Boss did.

GG Big Boss

He was the medic on duty and failed to notice a second bomb.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

There's definitely a finished character arc in this game: Huey.

His is fully realized and it's probably the best part of the game's story. You're supposed to feel like you trust Huey at first but then you can't believe the kind of person he's become the more he lies and lies to the player. And it just drives a deeper connection if you've played PW where Huey is genuinely good or even MGS1/2 where the same voice is used for someone who is actually good (Hal/Otacon).

It's a well done character arc in a sea of unresolved plot threads after its wrapped up.

Oh and I guess you could count Paz's another character arc completed (even if she's "just a phantom" it's a fairly interesting arc and is trying to again connect the player to the game's story outside of just a viewing experience).

ok, one decent arc that ends stupidly because of previously established death of the character.

Paz is secret side story.

That's pretty fucking bad when that's all you have to defend characters in an entire game.

 

[Chariot]

I feel like they wasted the whole hallucinations thing. Like I originally thought the Man on Fire was a hallucination of The Fury (Like Venom snake can't entirely remember The Fury or something).

I think it would have been interesting to have (during the ashes scene) all the people he killed replace the soldiers on the quarantine platform.

Oh, would've been amazing to have phantoms of the Cobras appear that are just not quite right, because Venom only heard the stories. Players would groan and go: huh, that's not hiw this character was. It's missing this and that detail until the reveal.

 

[The Broken Ska Record]

I'm rewatching MGS2 cutscenes and codec calls and they have such better and engaging writing than anything in MGSV. The intro alone with the banter between Solid Snake and Otacon is so good. They actually interact with one another and have good chemistry.

Snake: "Russians?"
Otacon: "Are you sure?"
Snake: "No marine barber touched that head of hair."

And after getting over the initial "WTF is going on?" from playing the game for the first time. Hearing explanations of who the Patriots are is super interesting. The entire atmosphere of MGS2 is superb and creates a feeling of surrealism and paranoia. Not knowing who to trust or even who is real.

Just because MGSV's story is lacking, doesn't make MGS2 some masterpiece. I initally liked it when I played it oh-so-many years ago, but replaying it a few weeks ago showcases how dumb a lot of it is. Like the huge info dump towards the end of the game with stuff that was hardly referenced in the story preceding it. Sure, I the character moments with Snake, Otacon and Raiden are good, but as a whole the game was pretty dumb.

 

[Resilient]

I feel like the kind of ppl who shit on MGS2 and it's dialogue are the same peeps who play games with podcasts playing in their headphones. Like, please show me your definition of God Tier writing that makes MGS2 such a piece of shit for some of you.

 

[Fractal]

Just finished it, and I'm not disappointed. Knew right from the start there's a Kojima twist somewhere in the prologue... though I expected the "truth" to be something a bit less outlandish, like the whole game being a comatose dream.

In any case, it's a proper MGS story... some good entertainment as long as you just wrap your head around it, and don't think about it too deeply. As far as I'm concerned, the series went out with style!

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I'm rewatching MGS2 cutscenes and codec calls and they have such better and engaging writing than anything in MGSV. The intro alone with the banter between Solid Snake and Otacon is so good. They actually interact with one another and have good chemistry.

Snake: "Russians?"
Otacon: "Are you sure?"
Snake: "No marine barber touched that head of hair."

And after getting over the initial "WTF is going on?" from playing the game for the first time. Hearing explanations of who the Patriots are is super interesting. The entire atmosphere of MGS2 is superb and creates a feeling of surrealism and paranoia. Not knowing who to trust or even who is real.

People need to replay MGS2 in 2015 context.

 

[Caffeine]

what there are already people who 100% the game. the fact that you have to trigger endings is stupid.

 

[Zabant]

ok, one decent arc that ends stupidly because of previously established death of the character.

Paz is secret side story.

That's pretty fucking bad when that's all you have to defend characters in an entire game.

Not to mention that Quiet who a lot of people are holding up as an example of a good character is completely optional.

The only reason Skull-Face gets away with his ridiculous B-Movie motivations and general lack of character building is due to his VA hamming it up.

 

[robotrock]

Any mention of Solidus in this game?

Or even Raiden?

 

[Revven]

So he hallucinated Paz, Ocelot AND Miller, went into that [apparantly empty] infirmary room 10 times and just stared at a wall?

This is beyond bad, truly. The concept is okay [I guess], but the pay-off is horrendous. Are the Paz tapes a hallucination? Is he hallucinating tape 5?

Just... what the hell.

Well, the game is full of stuff related to music/headphones/tapes so maybe there's some kind of connection there as well.

 

[Majine]

Skullface had the best VA. I melt everytime.

 

[AEREC]

Wait, I just found out that you can do stuff in the game to make Venom's horn bigger.


The following is a list of actions the players can perform to increase their Demon Points:

+30 - Critically wound an enemy soldier

I didn't know this.

I did this a lot since I figured it was putting them out of their misery.

 

[Fractal]

Any mention of Solidus in this game?

Or even Raiden?

Unless I've missed something, not a single one. A bit disappointing, was hoping to find some reference to Raiden while encountering the child soldiers in Africa.

 

[Neoweee]

Any mention of Solidus in this game?

Or even Raiden?

Raiden wasn't born yet, and Solidus was a secret side project that none of the main characters knew about.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I'm rewatching MGS2 cutscenes and codec calls and they have such better and engaging writing than anything in MGSV. The intro alone with the banter between Solid Snake and Otacon is so good. They actually interact with one another and have good chemistry.

Snake: "Russians?"
Otacon: "Are you sure?"
Snake: "No marine barber touched that head of hair."

And after getting over the initial "WTF is going on?" from playing the game for the first time. Hearing explanations of who the Patriots are is super interesting. The entire atmosphere of MGS2 is superb and creates a feeling of surrealism and paranoia. Not knowing who to trust or even who is real.

I admit the Ocelot/Snake banter at the beginning of game was pretty great but there is a load of shit wriing in that game that is laughable. Every single MGS games has some crap writing. MGS2 may actual be the pinnacle of this even though it has better ideas and plot devices than the rest of the series.

 

[Revven]

ok, one decent arc that ends stupidly because of previously established death of the character.

Paz is secret side story.

That's pretty fucking bad when that's all you have to defend characters in an entire game.

I mean yeah I'm not defending the game's story much at all, just saying that at least one character arc got finished (and IMO it was great but to each their own).

 

[Clear]

Uh, no its not. Dude you've gone off the rails - I never once said anything about linear v. fragmented narratives. Nor implied, or hinted, or anything.

I said the story is incomplete. It is. Completely unrelated to this irrelevant linear thing you've brought up twice now.

Uh and lol at "semantic strawman." Literally what you did, not me.

You keep asserting the story is "incomplete", please define why this is the case.

I'm pretty confident I can comprehensively dismantle any argument you put forth on the basis that your definition of "completeness" is reliant on a rigid expectation of story structure and flow.

The fact of the matter is that the content of Chapter 1 by itself is enough needed to refute your argument.

Chapter 2 is not a continuation of the events of Chapter 1, but rather an embellishment based on the fundamental premise that the real story of MGSV is that of the player building/staffing-up mother-base and doing missions.

You may not like it, but its a legitimate approach because MGSV is not a book, or a movie, it's a game.

 

[Finalow]

I don't get it.

it's a totally legitimate reaction to what you wrote in that post.

 

[oldboss]

Oh, would've been amazing to have phantoms of the Cobras appear that are just not quite right, because Venom only heard the stories. Players would groan and go: huh, that's not hiw this character was. It's missing this and that detail until the reveal.

Let's just round up all the good ideas people have in this thread and send them to section 8 or whatever Kojipro's called now for MGSV:Subsistence

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

Just because MGSV's story is lacking, doesn't make MGS2 some masterpiece. I initally liked it when I played it oh-so-many years ago, but replaying it a few weeks ago showcases how dumb a lot of it is. Like the huge info dump towards the end of the game with stuff that was hardly referenced in the story preceding it. Sure, I the character moments with Snake, Otacon and Raiden are good, but as a whole the game was pretty dumb.

People need to replay MGS2 in 2015 context.

I watched Drew play through it recently on Giantbomb and I stand by the stance that it isn't terrible. Is it a masterpiece? Well I wouldn't say it's TLOU quality. But videogame narratives were different back then. In fact, watching it recently, I'd say I have newfound respect for it. Especially in light of MGSV.

Cut out the constant Rose nagging and I'd say MGS2 completely works as a terrorist/conspiracy/metanarrative thriller.

 

[Hands of Stone]

Raiden wasn't born yet, and Solidus was a secret side project that none of the main characters knew about.

He was already a year old. Solidus was off doing missions with the CIA at this point.

 

[Ether_Snake]

I'm rewatching MGS2 cutscenes and codec calls and they have such better and engaging writing than anything in MGSV. The intro alone with the banter between Solid Snake and Otacon is so good. They actually interact with one another and have good chemistry.

Snake: "Russians?"
Otacon: "Are you sure?"
Snake: "No marine barber touched that head of hair."

And after getting over the initial "WTF is going on?" from playing the game for the first time. Hearing explanations of who the Patriots are is super interesting. The entire atmosphere of MGS2 is superb and creates a feeling of surrealism and paranoia. Not knowing who to trust or even who is real.

Yep, one of the best story-telling games made, along with MGS1 (people forget how well directed it was cinematically, this was the PS1 era!). MGS3 was great too. Since then the story hasn't been well structured as it was in those games. Impossible to know why exactly, but I don't care much anymore. Making better stories is easy, making games that are fun to play isn't. Other than MGS4 and maybe PO/PW, MGS games have been fun.

 

[Messypandas]

 

[Guess Who]

I'm rewatching MGS2 cutscenes and codec calls and they have such better and engaging writing than anything in MGSV. The intro alone with the banter between Solid Snake and Otacon is so good. They actually interact with one another and have good chemistry.

Snake: "Russians?"
Otacon: "Are you sure?"
Snake: "No marine barber touched that head of hair."

And after getting over the initial "WTF is going on?" from playing the game for the first time. Hearing explanations of who the Patriots are is super interesting. The entire atmosphere of MGS2 is superb and creates a feeling of surrealism and paranoia. Not knowing who to trust or even who is real.

One thing I really enjoy about Snake and Otacon in MGS2 is how MGS1 has Snake as basically the cool bad-ass action hero character and MGS2 just turns him into half of a goofy buddy-cop duo.

 

[Henkka]

I liked the initial reveal of Paz because it made me feel like I was playing as a character whose mind was clearly breaking down, like I couldn't trust what I saw and heard because of the shrapnel in my skull. But other than Paz, they do nothing with it.

 

[Resilient]

I watched Drew play through it recently on Giantbomb and I stand by the stance that it isn't terrible. Is it a masterpiece? Well I wouldn't say it's TLOU quality. But videogame narratives were different back then. In fact, watching it recently, I'd say I have newfound respect for it. Especially in light of MGSV.

Cut out the constant Rose nagging and I'd say MGS2 completely works as a terrorist/conspiracy/metanarrative thriller.

It's not Rose nagging. It's the Patriots fucking with Raidens head.

 

[MrChowderClams]

Mods like this are why every game should be released on PC. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Resilient]

omfg

 

[Salaadin]

I feel like the kind of ppl who shit on MGS2 and it's dialogue are the same peeps who play games with podcasts playing in their headphones. Like, please show me your definition of God Tier writing that makes MGS2 such a piece of shit for some of you.

I don't have an example because gaming in general is loaded with shit writing.

MGS2 is a game with a lot of good things to say but it says them in the most convoluted, hamfisted, drawn out ways.

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

Script wise? Nah, but the meta commentary and overall narrative structure is a fucking masterpiece when looked as a whole in the marketing campaign.

Game is a stroke of genius when looking at it beyond the game itself, and even in the game the plot works and really makes sense in context of it's goal.

Yup, and because of this, it sits among my personal favorites. The anti-game before Kane & Lynch 2 or Spec Ops: The Line.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

I cared more about Emma Emmerich in the hour that you get to know her than I ever did about Paz in the whole of Peace Walker, GZ, and TPP.

 

[Guess Who]

It's not Rose nagging. It's the Patriots fucking with Raidens head.

Rose is at least partially real in MGS2. I think the general point people theorize real-Rose swaps with AI-Rose is after she tells Jack she's pregnant.

 

[Resilient]

Rose is at least partially real in MGS2. I think the general point people theorize real-Rose swaps with AI-Rose is after she tells Jack she's pregnant.

yeah, but people complain about her general dialogue being horrible when 95% of it is the Patriots, and it's done for a reason.

 

[Sub_Level]

Any mention of Solidus in this game?

Or even Raiden?

Solidus and Sons of Liberty can be put on your Emblem

No story mentions of either character.

 

[Griss]

Script wise? Nah, but the meta commentary and overall narrative structure is a fucking masterpiece when looked as a whole in the marketing campaign.

Game is a stroke of genius when looking at it beyond the game itself, and even in the game the plot works and really makes sense in context of it's goal.

This is always my criticism of MGS2. Sure, the meta-elements outside of the game are incredible. The game makes an amazing study, and has inspired so many interesting discussions.

But the actual in-game narrative? As an action story? It's terrible, and the game needs to be judged on that.

 

[Ghostmaster]

It's not Rose nagging. It's the Patriots fucking with Raidens head.

This is like the weakest defense that every MGS 2 fan pulls. So I guess if at the end of Episode 1 Jar Jar binks turned out to be a faulty droid, than that would excuse all his annoyances throughout the movie/game.

But, here no Rose. Masterpiece of writing.

"Solid Snake: We don't use guns to take people down, and we're not here to help some politician either.
Raiden: What are you and Otacon fighting for?
Solid Snake: A future." (Every Cliche Ever)

"Raiden: People will remember only the good part, the right part about what you did.
Solid Snake: There's nothing right part in murder, not ever." (I'm Batman)

"Solid Snake: Find something to believe in, and find it for yourself. When you do, pass it on to the future.
Raiden: Believe in what?
Solid Snake: That's your problem." (Snake the self help-book guide)

Life is strange, The Last of us and The Walking Dead all have better written and more believable pieces than MGS2.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I cared more about Emma Emmerich in the hour that you get to know her than I ever did about Paz in the whole of Peace Walker, GZ, and TPP.

Yup. I still feel bad about her dying. Couldn't give less of a shit about Paz.

 

[robotoboy20]

I feel like the kind of ppl who shit on MGS2 and it's dialogue are the same peeps who play games with podcasts playing in their headphones. Like, please show me your definition of God Tier writing that makes MGS2 such a piece of shit for some of you.

Well honestly many people talk about The Last of Us as some kind of narrative masterpiece, when we all know in actuality that it's not. It was also held as feminist which was hilarious because it was as much a male power fantasy as any action-dad media. Not to mention the whole implication of that one guy wanting to rape Ellie, she's constantly undermined by Joel, the other women in the game all die, including Joel's daughter which is his driving force plot wise. and it's seen as a narrative/feminist masterpiece... That game is toted as a some kind of return to form for storytelling in games, but it's TOTALLY not. The DLC was pretty well written though.

TLoU is a really bad game that got hyped to hell and back and then the hype never died... also the ending is beloved by many even though it makes pretty much no sense at ALL. Joel just goes all G.I. Joe and kills a paramilitary force all by himself, kills a doctor and then kills the woman who was a complete dick head in the first place. She didn't even let him say goodbye... She's just like - "Thanks man, we're killing her right now so we can make a cure." and expects him to just be okay with that. Anyways MGS isn't great, but a lot of people don't seem to understand what is. I love Bioshock Infinite for instance, not the DLC, but the core game. I love it's story, and I loved it's characters. It's ending was even better. MGSV isn't awful, but it's not the epitome of writing.

 

[Gator86]

 

[Zabant]

YOU DESTROYED THEIR ANTI-AIR?!

Why are you so surprised miller? this is like the tenth time.

Also, what are you talking about 'it wasn't an objective?' I'm and adult I can set my own god damn objectives, hell I am in free roam so you have no reason to even question it.

 

[Reebot]

Chapter 2 is not a continuation of the events of Chapter 1, but rather an embellishment based on the fundamental premise that the real story of MGSV is that of the player building/staffing-up mother-base and doing missions.

You may not like it, but its a legitimate approach because MGSV is not a book, or a movie, it's a game.

That you keep arguing against things I've never said is exactly why I'm not inclined to give you a full response.

 

[jwhit28]

I can understand the feeling of the game being incomplete from the lack of closure on the Eli/Sahelanthropous story just fucking right off, but the rest is pretty solid and well wrapped up when you realize TPP is just a tool to set up the time line as understood in MGS4.

It explains Grey Fox's absence, why he would go to Outter Heaven, and why he would be on Big Boss's side in Zanzibar Land.

It explains why miller would suddenly be present in MG2 instead of being part of Intrude N313, and makes a lot of sense on how Liquid and Ocelot would know about miller and want to kill him for MGS.

It shows how Big Boss descended into madness while also staying the greatest fucking saint in the world. Phantom Big Boss went renegade after that PTSD from the Quarantine chamber, while real Big Boss kept working in the background to oppose Donald Anderson's new Patriots.

Throughout all of this, it managed to do the twist reveal extremely well, the only shitty part was plying through that entire mssion again instead of breezing through or just doing the important bits. The signs were all there if you were looking for them: Ishmael's voice, abilities, and comments, Snake not knowing Russian which he was extremely fluent in (Which Ocelot tries to cover it up with a lie?), Phantom Big Boss had no real reaction to the Boss's voice, while real Big Boss would have had a PTSD attack, Volgin suddenly backs off when getting up close and personal with Phantom Big Boss because he realizes it's not his enemy, the DNA test was a 0% match for someone we knew was obviously Big Boss's clone.

Also, Quiet knew the whole time that she was dealing with Phantom Big Boss. She knew it wasn't Big Boss when she was sent to assassinate the real one, claiming the guy next to the real one saw her face and then proceeded to strangle him face to facel, getting a good look at the fact Phantom Big Boss had a damn horn. Years later, she'd fail to kill him again. He spared her, stopped her from committing suicide, abducted her, and was literally the only person to treat her like a human being on all of Mother Base. You have Lima and Stockholm Syndrome at work here, on top of Phantom Big Boss being a pretty decent guy all around, rich, powerful, charismatic, and supremely confident. They even work together a lot on the field sharing foxholes together so to speak. Hell, with all that I'd want to fuck the man too.

Overall, it's a great story that's true to the MGS themes. It's disjointed in its presentation, and left a little incomplete following the shitstorm at Konami. Just because it was told poorly, which was possibly out of Kojia's hands due to working conditions, doesn't mean you can't step away and appreciate how well constructed it is. TPP sets a rock solid foundation for future events, and had an ending that will stick with most of us forever.

My biggest question mark left from the game is why would Liquid trust Ocelot? Ocelot is at least as much responsible for Liquid's ill-fated creation as the other Patriots, and treats Liquid the same as Kaz and Venom Snake at MB.

 

[brianmcdoogle]

Script wise? Nah, but the meta commentary and overall narrative structure is a fucking masterpiece when looked as a whole in the marketing campaign.

Game is a stroke of genius when looking at it beyond the game itself, and even in the game the plot works and really makes sense in context of it's goal.

Absolutely, and this is why I'm one of those crazy idiots who thinks MGS2 as a sequel is on par with the greatest sequels of all time, not just gaming, but with The Empire Strikes Back and The Godfather, Part II.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

"Solid Snake: Find something to believe in, and find it for yourself. When you do, pass it on to the future.
Raiden: Believe in what?
Solid Snake: That's your problem." (Snake the self help-book guide)

I actually love this particular segment of dialogue, because it shows that while Snake has gone into Obi-wan mentor mode he's still Solid Snake and he's still got that sense of callousness to him. It shows how he's grown and how he hasn't at the same time.

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

This is like the weakest defense that every MGS 2 fan pulls. So I guess if at the end of Episode 1 Jar Jar binks turned out to be a faulty droid, than that would excuse all his annoyances throughout the movie/game.

But, here no Rose. Masterpiece of writing.

"Solid Snake: We don't use guns to take people down, and we're not here to help some politician either.
Raiden: What are you and Otacon fighting for?
Solid Snake: A future." (Every Cliche Ever)

"Raiden: People will remember only the good part, the right part about what you did.
Solid Snake: There's nothing right part in murder, not ever." (I'm Batman)

"Solid Snake: Find something to believe in, and find it for yourself. When you do, pass it on to the future.
Raiden: Believe in what?
Solid Snake: That's your problem." (Snake the self help-book guide)

Life is strange, The Last of us and The Walking Dead all have better written and more believable pieces than MGS2.

It's almost as if framing can change the entire perception and understanding of characters and situation.

 

[Messypandas]

 

[Finalow]

Chapter 2 is not a continuation of the events of Chapter 1, but rather an embellishment based on the fundamental premise that the real story of MGSV is that of the player building/staffing-up mother-base and doing missions.

You may not like it, but its a legitimate approach because MGSV is not a book, or a movie, it's a game.

uhwhat
the story isn't incomplete, the whole game is.

and chapter 2 tries to be exactly that. you know, the parasite stuff, eli, Quiet etc., and guess what, an ending is even missing from the game. if that doesn't mean "incomplete" I don't know what does.

that ''embellishment'' you speak of is nothing more than a tedious do the same mission 15 times in the same location, then do it again 5 more times and then grind some more materials for mother base, because it's fun right. in a way, it truly is a phantom pain, for the player. kojima is a genius confirmed

edit/ nvm I read your tag

 

[Smooth Operator]

Life is strange, The Last of us and The Walking Dead all have better written and more believable pieces than MGS2.

Kinda off-topic, but what is so good about TLOU writing ? I think it's really "basic", i've seen way, way better stuff in various movies / tv shows / books.

The DLC is okay tho'.