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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
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You feel it too, don't you?
Now you get to go watch the deleted Mission 51 recap on Youtube and experience your very own phantom pain.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I love all the details that this theory points out, but I do think it's wrong in that Venom and Boss were against one another or that Venom was angry about his mission. The way you get the reveal with Boss talking to V with an affectionate parental tone followed by the timeskip implies Boss and V were working together. Then you have V's final speech to Snake where he proudly proclaims to be Big Boss. Everything in MGSV molds Venom to be the perfect loyal soldier, so I think he's on board with BB's plan and that neither of them intended for Snake to succeed.
So at the end of the game, you get a tape explaining that you are not Big Boss, but an exact duplicate created by Zero to protect the real Big Boss from his own organization. This scene is really really good, and I love Kiefer's mocap work when Venom Snake smirks and looks at himself in the mirror with this look of power.
But the last few seconds of this scene are extremely important! When he flips the tape over, there's a time jump to 1995. How do I know this? Be perceptive; in the reflection of the mirror, there is a Diamond Dogs emblem on the bathroom door.
However, when Venom flips the tape over, that emblem becomes an Outer Heaven logo, and outside you can hear gunfire and chaos. What's the other side of that tape labeled?
Operation N313 aka the operation Solid Snake goes on in Metal Gear 1.
...
It can be safely assumed that whatever is on that N313 tape, Venom doesn't like it. He reads the info and immediately destroys a mirror in rage; that does not sound to me like the reaction of a happy man in a healthy partnership. Given the info we have, it can be reasonably assumed that Big Boss and Venom communicate through those cassette tapes; it can also be reasonably assumed that towards the end of Metal Gear 1, Venom Snake becomes aware of the fact that Solid Snake is coming to kill him and tries to sabotage that operation. During the game, your CO is Big Boss. He's basically the Campbell of Metal Gear 1; he gives you hints and suggestions on what to do. But suddenly, towards the end of the game, Big Boss contacts you on a new frequency and begins giving you bogus advice to try and sabotage your mission.
Real Big Boss's frequency: 120.85
Venom Snake's frequency: 120.13
This second Big Boss on the new frequency is Venom Snake trying to stall Solid Snake's mission. Now, what we see in MG1 is that the entire time, Big Boss is helpful in assisting Solid Snake in his mission to destroy Outer Heaven. We also know that Venom Snake contacts Solid and tries to stop the mission. If Big Boss didn't want Solid to kill Venom, he would have also worked to stop the mission, not assisted the whole time.
It isn't clear, and it will never be clear, what Big Boss's grand plan was for Operation Intrude N313.
As it stands in canon now, he expected Solid Snake to fail. Given the new information about Venom Snake, his motivations become even more nebulous. Killing Solid Snake is obviously in Big Boss's favor, but so would killing Venom Snake. Why? Venom Snake is one of the few individuals who knows of Big Boss's double and if he is capture alive would likely raise many uncomfortable questions for Big Boss in regards to his position within FOXHOUND.
The Outer Heaven uprising is intended to be a rebellion against the Patriots, but at some point it may have become obvious that it was going to fail. Venom Snake doesn't get the N313 tape until Snake has spent some time on his mission (you can hear him fighting outside the room Venom is in). At this point, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Big Boss to assume that the uprising was a failure, and that ultimately, the Patriots would destroy Outer Heaven. If Venom was captured, it is possible they could discover Big Boss's involvement in its founding.
So what about the damn MSX tape?
I think the tape contains Venom Snake's final mission: to die for the Big Boss legend. If Venom gives his life and takes responsibility for the uprising, Big Boss will be able to remain undercover and unharmed, ultimately allowing Venom to complete his mission as a lightning rod for Big Boss.
In the end, Venom gets the same mission that the US handed down to the Boss in MGS3: he is to die for his cause and will go down in history as a war criminal. No one will know who he was, no one will know what he sacrificed. His life, his face, his ideology, everything was to be taken by Big Boss and his legend. Big Boss does literally the same thing that the Philosophers/the US did to the Boss, the very thing he swore to stop so many years before.
Venom gets angry and rejects this mission; he punches the mirror and contacts Solid to try and stop the inevitable. In the end, Venom does what the Boss doesn't: he rejects his mission and implicates Big Boss in the whole thing. He tells Solid that he is Big Boss, causing Solid and everyone else to think that Big Boss had double crossed them and was simultaneously the leader of Outer Heaven and the CO of FOXHOUND, thus blowing Big Boss's cover. Solid kills Venom Snake, and Big Boss goes into hiding to build Zanzibar Land. And well, the rest is history.
The frequency change and the note about the OH logo are great, though. Also, the thought of the game ending with Solid Snake in any form, even if it's just audible gunfire or the idea that he's right outside or near the door to the locker room, puts a band-aid on the wound of him not actually being in the game.
Would have loved to have actually seen him - posting the MG1 era Solid Snake mod again because it's so good:
But we got the next best thing.
Haunted
Member
Zombie James
Banned
YongYea posted his review and... yeah, expected and I completely disagree (from what I've watched so far): https://youtu.be/uvnhJ-xSySQ
Deckard Chapel
Banned
Has anyone tried asking Ken, or anyone else at KojiPro about all this cut content being patched back in?
Are there any plans for this?!?
Are there any plans for this?!?
ShockingAlberto
Member
So, there's two things at play here.
- No matter how you make it fit, even if it fits perfectly, Kojima has not had this planned for 30 years. I promise you this. You can choose to believe this idea, but you are wrong, and are deluding yourself. He may have made it fit in weirdly well (which, in this case, is not true), but he made this twist up for this game.
- I do believe Big Boss did not care if Venom lived or died there. He would have preferred he trap Solid Snake, but once it's revealed Big Boss is there, it was better for Solid Snake to kill him and let Big Boss hide in Zanzibarland than for Snake to escape from there. In that sense, yeah, he totally Boss'd his most loyal soldier. That is the fall of Big Boss.
- No matter how you make it fit, even if it fits perfectly, Kojima has not had this planned for 30 years. I promise you this. You can choose to believe this idea, but you are wrong, and are deluding yourself. He may have made it fit in weirdly well (which, in this case, is not true), but he made this twist up for this game.
- I do believe Big Boss did not care if Venom lived or died there. He would have preferred he trap Solid Snake, but once it's revealed Big Boss is there, it was better for Solid Snake to kill him and let Big Boss hide in Zanzibarland than for Snake to escape from there. In that sense, yeah, he totally Boss'd his most loyal soldier. That is the fall of Big Boss.
GreyOcelot
Member
So at the end of the game, you get a tape explaining that you are not Big Boss, but an exact duplicate created by Zero to protect the real Big Boss from his own organization. This scene is really really good, and I love Kiefer's mocap work when Venom Snake smirks and looks at himself in the mirror with this look of power.
But the last few seconds of this scene are extremely important! When he flips the tape over, there's a time jump to 1995. How do I know this? Be perceptive; in the reflection of the mirror, there is a Diamond Dogs emblem on the bathroom door.
However, when Venom flips the tape over, that emblem becomes an Outer Heaven logo, and outside you can hear gunfire and chaos. What's the other side of that tape labeled?
Operation N313 aka the operation Solid Snake goes on in Metal Gear 1.
...
It can be safely assumed that whatever is on that N313 tape, Venom doesn't like it. He reads the info and immediately destroys a mirror in rage; that does not sound to me like the reaction of a happy man in a healthy partnership. Given the info we have, it can be reasonably assumed that Big Boss and Venom communicate through those cassette tapes; it can also be reasonably assumed that towards the end of Metal Gear 1, Venom Snake becomes aware of the fact that Solid Snake is coming to kill him and tries to sabotage that operation. During the game, your CO is Big Boss. He's basically the Campbell of Metal Gear 1; he gives you hints and suggestions on what to do. But suddenly, towards the end of the game, Big Boss contacts you on a new frequency and begins giving you bogus advice to try and sabotage your mission.
Real Big Boss's frequency: 120.85
Venom Snake's frequency: 120.13
This second Big Boss on the new frequency is Venom Snake trying to stall Solid Snake's mission. Now, what we see in MG1 is that the entire time, Big Boss is helpful in assisting Solid Snake in his mission to destroy Outer Heaven. We also know that Venom Snake contacts Solid and tries to stop the mission. If Big Boss didn't want Solid to kill Venom, he would have also worked to stop the mission, not assisted the whole time.
It isn't clear, and it will never be clear, what Big Boss's grand plan was for Operation Intrude N313.
As it stands in canon now, he expected Solid Snake to fail. Given the new information about Venom Snake, his motivations become even more nebulous. Killing Solid Snake is obviously in Big Boss's favor, but so would killing Venom Snake. Why? Venom Snake is one of the few individuals who knows of Big Boss's double and if he is capture alive would likely raise many uncomfortable questions for Big Boss in regards to his position within FOXHOUND.
The Outer Heaven uprising is intended to be a rebellion against the Patriots, but at some point it may have become obvious that it was going to fail. Venom Snake doesn't get the N313 tape until Snake has spent some time on his mission (you can hear him fighting outside the room Venom is in). At this point, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Big Boss to assume that the uprising was a failure, and that ultimately, the Patriots would destroy Outer Heaven. If Venom was captured, it is possible they could discover Big Boss's involvement in its founding.
So what about the damn MSX tape?
I think the tape contains Venom Snake's final mission: to die for the Big Boss legend. If Venom gives his life and takes responsibility for the uprising, Big Boss will be able to remain undercover and unharmed, ultimately allowing Venom to complete his mission as a lightning rod for Big Boss.
In the end, Venom gets the same mission that the US handed down to the Boss in MGS3: he is to die for his cause and will go down in history as a war criminal. No one will know who he was, no one will know what he sacrificed. His life, his face, his ideology, everything was to be taken by Big Boss and his legend. Big Boss does literally the same thing that the Philosophers/the US did to the Boss, the very thing he swore to stop so many years before.
Venom gets angry and rejects this mission; he punches the mirror and contacts Solid to try and stop the inevitable. In the end, Venom does what the Boss doesn't: he rejects his mission and implicates Big Boss in the whole thing. He tells Solid that he is Big Boss, causing Solid and everyone else to think that Big Boss had double crossed them and was simultaneously the leader of Outer Heaven and the CO of FOXHOUND, thus blowing Big Boss's cover. Solid kills Venom Snake, and Big Boss goes into hiding to build Zanzibar Land. And well, the rest is history.
Well done. I love this tie in with MG1. It's really silly and classicly messy kojima shit, but it's awesome. I'm sure kojima wanted to do more with this but ran out of time.
Welcome to hell.
Would have been great to have some hallucination angle with Ishmael or Man on Fire, or even Skull face himself. The whole opening led me to believe that at least some of what happened in the beginning of the game wasn't real.
Edit.
I don't say this often, but I'm really hoping for some meaty DLC. Would love more story
Marty-esque
Member
Specifically?
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
it hurts that we'll probably never get a remake of Solid Snake's greatest adventures. Seriously Outer Heaven and Zanzibar deserved more.
ShockingAlberto
Member
They implant the idea, but they don't do it super well.
Nearly every part of Ishmael's interactions can be interpreted as him not really being there as equally as him actually being a real person, except the part where he shoots some XOF soldiers and dives into a corner and disappears.
That part makes no sense and you're given control immediately after. If someone were sneaking away, you'd be able to see it. Unless Big Boss had wormhole technology already, that part doesn't fit.
GreyOcelot
Member
No one actually believes he had this planned. He's never planned for any mgs sequels or prequels
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
But Metal Gear Solid is already a remake of Metal Gear 2. :kappa
ShockingAlberto
Member
We might. They just won't be Kojima games.
Quite frankly, remaking Metal Gear 1 and 2 might be the easiest things Konami can do with the series now.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
There is absolutely no way it was planned in advance, lol. Kojima is the retcon king, so if it fits in it has done so retroactively.
Retcons aren't inherently flawed and I'd even argue that smaller ones are needed or welcome with prequels from a creative standpoint.
I still think the biggest retcon in any game, not just the Metal Gear series, is actually in MGS1, which said Big Boss was Snake's father. That never happened
GreyOcelot
Member
Hmmm possibly. But the logistics of this is quite difficult if they are going to make an open world TPP sequel. A solo infiltration of one facility doesn't allow much in the way of basebuilding. Which for konami will probably be very microtransaction heavy even in single player
ShockingAlberto
Member
I was real, real ready to angry about the Paz thing in TPP. That's probably my biggest turnaround of "Man Kojima is terrible" to "Nah, this is pretty alright."
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
Doing a 3D remake of those without any talent except mobile game devs sounds like a scary thought.
ZeroMaverick
Member
Yeah, I didn't really like the Peace Walker voice but he still has the young Snake voice still in him.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Haha, same. Retcons between games are one thing but GZ is essentially the tanker mission of TPP. You don't retcon something from the same game. Even then it was dumb to begin with. What it actually turned out being ended up being the only good use of Venom's hallucinations in-game (and even tied into his former identity as a combat medic)
GreyOcelot
Member
And dat music
ShockingAlberto
Member
Snake: It appears the enemy has an enemy mech.
Big Boss: Wait, you're extracting him?
Snake: What? No, they have a bipedal mech. What do I do?
Kyle: Snake, get on back to base, we have a problem. Some of the men have started fighting with each other.
Snake: Base? What? You don't even work for us. Which men are fighting?
*Snake checks his transceiver*
Transceiver: Please spend Outer Heaven Coins to purchase toys for your soldiers.
Berserker976
Member
Interesting. I had an opposite reaction. Paz being alive caused me to question everything in Ground Zeroes. The doctor even says when you wake up that you might have some sort of false memories about what happened before your coma. The idea that Ground Zeroes was just some sort of weird, twisted memory was really intriguing.
But then, nope. She was just dead all along. Boring.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Marty-esque
Member
The Soviet base in Afghanistan is a good place. So is the airport in Africa. They both have a few containers that you can farm.
GreyOcelot
Member
Ha! It will be a disaster of epic proportions.
Unless they just copy the tpp formula and reboot the series
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
Who was that team that made Volume? They have the talent.
Wow...
As a big fan of MGS, I'm completely gutted.
This is how they end the series? The whole story of the game is basically just to set up some bullshit Shamalyan twist?
All I fucking wanted was to see Big Boss turn insane with his twisted vision of what The Boss wanted, build other heaven and have the game bridge together the events of the first Metal Gear. Going into why he turned into a mass murderer that recruits child soldiers and builds his own nation etc. Maybe have the last chapter reenact the Metal Gear with a final boss fight between BB and Solid Snake.
Instead we got this unfinished, disjointed, wreck of a story of some guy that were hypnotized to believe he's BB? The overall story had some moments, sure, but they were few and far between. Did Kojima just pull this doppelganger thing instead of making an actual story or what? Was this his vision?
Fucking hell...
Just looked it up... https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=391&v=-B4JIHh5Jqk
The fuck? Is this some leak or datamining thing?
Mr. Smiley
Member
It's pretty interesting how varied people react to Paz hallucination. I kinda thought people would know from the get go that something wasn't right, but many thought it was retcon in the making already.
Not saying anyone is superior for thinking the former, but it was neat seeing all the reactions and made me wish we had more like that in this game.
Not saying anyone is superior for thinking the former, but it was neat seeing all the reactions and made me wish we had more like that in this game.
That scene is in the Blu Ray that comes in the PS4 Special edition or something.
SJRB
Gold Member
It was released on a special Blu-Ray that came with the collector's edition, strangely enough.
And Venom is actually a pretty cool dude, all the demon talk is not correlated with his doings. Stops an epidemic, rescues puppies, teaches children how to read.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I think there's two factors with how misused Volgin was. One was that they wanted you to think he was a hallucination at first, but that goes out the window roughly five minutes after he is introduced. They also want you to think he is just Mantis pulling from your mind, which they manage to hold on to for a long time but mostly through a lack of compelling information than trickery.
The other factor is I think they just straight up ran out of time or resources to do everything they wanted. I think Volgin was supposed to be used more, but he just wasn't. He was the first person they brought is for facial capture, he was the first boss shown with them specifically saying "Yo he's a boss," and all he really amounted to was a 30 second fight where he might as well have been an overheating electric blanket with legs.
Real Big Boss's frequency: 120.85
Venom Snake's frequency: 120.13
Lol, after some days that i've finished MGSV, i dreamed about Big Boss who during the "Saladin's years" became a nuisance for Zero's IA(with whom he spoke through the radio, like MGS2) and for this reason it made Big Boss a public enemy. So a task force goes to destroy the DD and Venom Snake blames Big Boss for the new fall, and for that he steal his OH.
In that way Big Boss has not other options that to make amends publicly for his crime and return in US but in reality just to return as commander of Foxhound and take down his old OH, just to make a new OH in the future(ZL). And strangely i dreamed even about that part, when Solid Snake lose contact with the real Big Boss and then(in my dream) he starts to talk with the fake one that has taken over the radio, like Saddler in Resident Evil 4. What if is a premonitory dream?._.
GreyOcelot
Member
I'm actually really surprised they didn't just offload most of the kingdom of the flies shit to the tapes and just end the game with a eli/sehlathrodjjpus battle in some random area of africa. Just clone mission 31. Would have been a happy medium instead of straight up cutting out the mission and leaving that plot thread open
Can't stand what they did with ocelot in MGS V, made him the most nothing character in the whole game.
Zomba13
Member
Some more MG1 frequency clones:
Real Resistance Leader Kyle Schneider 120.79
Venom Resistance Leader Kyle Schneider 120.26
Real Resistance Member Diane 120.33
Venom Resistance Member Diane 120.91
Metal Gear 2 phantom frequencies:
Roy Campbell 140.85
Liquid Roy Campbell 140.66
Solid Roy Campbell 140.24
Real Resistance Leader Kyle Schneider 120.79
Venom Resistance Leader Kyle Schneider 120.26
Real Resistance Member Diane 120.33
Venom Resistance Member Diane 120.91
Metal Gear 2 phantom frequencies:
Roy Campbell 140.85
Liquid Roy Campbell 140.66
Solid Roy Campbell 140.24
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
What the fuck?
Why would they put this shit out unfinished on a making of disc instead of actually finishing it and having it in game?
Having it officially released in an unfinished and unplayable state makes no fucking sense. Is this canon or what?
What a clusterfuck this is...
Dick Justice
Banned
Clearly foreshadowing the remake of MG1+2 where everyone is clones.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
X
Xpike
Unconfirmed Member
they probably got a memo one random day to stop production so they couldn't do even that
Jesus... That's one of my favorite moments of the game. I can't stop laughing!
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