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[Alienous]

The player-is-Snake twist is absolute tripe. It doesn't work. It isn't me, it's an avatar. And if you're a female gamer it certainly isn't you.

It's garbage execution of a novel idea. I was never the top soldier at MSF. I have no medical expertise. The medic is Big Boss, I'm not. In addition to that Medic Boss has an idea of right and wrong, and a personality, that is in-congruent to my own; for instance I would have seriously fucked Huey up at the very least.

Conceptually it's a neat idea but the execution obfuscates any cleverness.

 

[JackelZXA]

Responding with straw-grasping.

Nothing to suggest this anywhere. Venom being "close" to Big Boss was just a forced detail to implement justification, and it fails. Like I said before, nothing related to the twist makes sense because the twist came first and everything else had to accommodate it at any cost.

Your point being? Big Boss still leaves him to face the same threat, and even bigger threats.

I'm going to do a little rewrite to show what i mean about adding bias into a post.

Nothing to suggest this anywhere. Venom being close to Big Boss was a detail to implement justification. Nothing related to the twist makes sense because the twist came first and everything else accommodated it.

Like...the colorful statements make up most of the meaning of what you're saying, they create a bias. Without them, there's almost nothing left to it. That's what I mean about "You have to go deeper than that". I can't really say anything in response to an emotional response other than bouncing off with my emotional response. "It's bad" "No it's good" just becomes noise.

The player-is-Snake twist is absolute tripe. It doesn't work. It isn't me, it's an avatar. And if you're a female gamer it certainly isn't you.

It's garbage execution of a novel idea. I was never the top soldier at MSF. I have no medical expertise. The medic is Big Boss, I'm not. In addition to that Medic Boss has an idea of right and wrong, and a personality, that is in-congruent to my own; for instance I would have seriously fucked Huey up at the very least.

Conceptually it's a neat idea but the execution obfuscates any cleverness.

Well I mean...it worked in MGS4.

 

[News Bot]

I'm going to do a little rewrite to show what i mean about adding bias into a post.

Like...the colorful statements make up most of the meaning of what you're saying, they create a bias. Without them, there's almost nothing left to it. That's what I mean about "You have to go deeper than that". I can't really say anything in response to an emotional response other than bouncing off with my emotional response. "It's bad" "No it's good" just becomes noise.

The detail is forced. That's a statement of fact. If something needs to damage other things to be inserted, then it's forced in. You're just looking for holes in my posts in the absence of being able to plug up any of this game's.

 

[MikeDown]

i'll just leave this here

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

The quiet humming is so god damned annoying.

 

[JackelZXA]

The detail is forced. That's a statement of fact. If something needs to damage other things to be inserted, then it's forced in. You're just looking for holes in my posts in the absence of being able to plug up any of this game's.

All you said here is the definition of what a retcon is..which isn't inherently bad. Instead of Forcing itself in, you could say "inserted itself in". Force is just a negative way to say that. Why is it Forced instead of Inserted? Why is that bad? I don't see how fixing narrative holes in the MSX game is bad. You have to go deeper than an "is" statement. How do the two states of the canon compare and what is lost, is the loss meaningful? What is the quality of canon after the loss?

tldr: "I think the retcon is good" is an equal statement to saying "I think the retcon is bad"


And I don't see holes in the game's narrative. I feel between the narrative in the cutscenes and on the tapes that we have a story that succeeds in filling in gaps from previous games (some that MGS4 CREATED, such as "Why did the MGS3 team turn evil? What do you mean Zero vs Big Boss? Since when?") The only thing I feel is really missing is the conclusion to Eli's story. I hope we get it as a DLC. It's the glaring problem for me. The things that are there I don't have a problem with. Missing Kingdom of Flies is really the one problem I'd say I actually have.

 

[SomTervo]

Responding with straw-grasping.

Nothing to suggest this anywhere. Venom being "close" to Big Boss was just a forced detail to implement justification, and it fails. Like I said before, nothing related to the twist makes sense because the twist came first and everything else had to accommodate it at any cost.

Your point being? Big Boss still leaves him to face the same threat, and even bigger threats.

I think the idea behind this was not that Big Boss is close to all of his soldiers - which he is - but that, more importantly, Venom/Ahab was willing to give his life for BB. So when Zero looked for someone to fill in for BB as a double, to give his whole life/existence to the cause, the one guy who really did, who was on the chopper with BB and would literally give his life for BB, would be the only choice.

Basically don't really agree with the person you're replying to (i dont think BB cares substantially about Venom) but I also don't think you're right that it's a forced detail. I think it ties to the idea of MSF as a "professional family" which is perpetuated throughout PW and TPP and that they're all commited to this higher cause.

The higher cause itself has been bullshit in all the games.

 

[razzmahtazz]

I know what the tapes say. They're wholly irrelevant because none of what they mention is ever hinted at in "reality." There's a disconnect within the story that leads to apparent contradictions, even if it's sound on paper. You can't just mention something major and then go out of your way to not only avoid addressing it at any point to make the threat actually seem like a threat, but also going the complete opposite direction and having Venom Snake, as Big Boss, having another heroic adventure where he does nothing bad to even make players think "hey, maybe people are right to want him dead."

Makes me wonder if the FOB system is what you guys are arguing about. It's evolved to a point where BB's enemies are hiring other PMCs to destabilize DD.

No it doesn't. How on earth did you arrive at that wacky roundabout conclusion? There's nothing complex about the legend. It was always straightforward. The man was more complicated, but that's the way it always is and should be. Schneider was Big Boss' enemy before becoming loyal to him, for instance.

The reveal happened in 1995. Without that, the scene makes no sense. Let's not forget that N312 happened before N313, but Big Boss is supposedly all bloody just because. You can hear gunfire in the Outer Heaven scenes, remember. That's because Solid Snake is in the fortress. The scene takes place hours or probably even minutes before Venom Snake dies.

You haven't explained how those interactions are "lessened" by Venom's intrusion though which what I'm trying to get out of you. To me all that matters is both VS and BB are working together towards the same goal. They're both good soldiers as defined by lore. And because he was made a double he can act the part.

There is an implied timejump in that scene though.

 

[Drencrom]

Like I said in a previous post in this topic, it's Breaking Bad all over again and people assuming that a protagonist developing into a bad guy means he's still an admirable person.

The only difference is Breaking Bad didn't try to hide that Walter was turning into the biggest shitheel known to man. Everyone knew it. His closest companions knew it, and regularly called him out for it. Meanwhile MGSV pretends as if everything Big Boss does is totally hunky-dory.

Yeah, I thought of Breaking Bad too. Some fans here seem afraid/reluctant to paint and accept Big Boss as the villain he becomes/is (

Spoiler

just like in Breaking Bad

). Just because a fictional character is evil and flawed doesn't make him a worse or less interesting as a character.

The player-is-Snake twist is absolute tripe. It doesn't work. It isn't me, it's an avatar. And if you're a female gamer it certainly isn't you.

It's garbage execution of a novel idea. I was never the top soldier at MSF. I have no medical expertise. The medic is Big Boss, I'm not. In addition to that Medic Boss has an idea of right and wrong, and a personality, that is in-congruent to my own; for instance I would have seriously fucked Huey up at the very least.

Conceptually it's a neat idea but the execution obfuscates any cleverness.

Exactly, Venom/Medic Boss was never a real extension of yourself or a real avatar. Medic Boss is his own person, a watered down Big Boss that had his own values and so on that doesn't jibe with my own.

A bit unrelated, but I almost thought you would have the choice to either exile or kill Huey at the trial, it really wouldn't matter storywise because leaving him out there on the oceans is basically killing him anyways and it wouldn't mess up any continuity by killing him or letting him live either way.

 

[SomTervo]

A bit unrelated, but I almost thought you would have the choice to either exile or kill Huey at the trial, it really wouldn't matter storywise because leaving him out there on the oceans is basically killing him anyways and it wouldn't mess up any continuity by killing him or letting him live either way.

Especially because he's already had his son, so his 'work' in the overall narrative is done already.

 

[Dick Justice]

Yeah, I thought of Breaking Bad too. Some fans here seem afraid/reluctant to paint and accept Big Boss as the villain he becomes/is (

Spoiler

just like in Breaking Bad

). Just because a fictional character is evil and flawed doesn't make him a worse or less interesting as a character.



Exactly, Venom/Medic Boss was never a real extension of yourself or a real avatar. Medic Boss is his own person, a watered down Big Boss that had his own values and so on that doesn't jibe with my own.

A bit unrelated, but I almost thought you would have the choice to either exile or kill Huey at the trial, it really wouldn't matter storywise because leaving him out there on the oceans is basically killing him anyways and it wouldn't mess up any continuity by killing him or letting him live either way.

Apart from the whole "son fucking your wife-induced suicide" thing.

 

[JackelZXA]

Yeah, I thought of Breaking Bad too. Some fans here seem afraid/reluctant to paint and accept Big Boss as the villain he becomes/is (

Spoiler

just like in Breaking Bad

). Just because a fictional character is evil and flawed doesn't make him a worse or less interesting as a character.



Exactly, Venom/Medic Boss was never a real extension of yourself or a real avatar. Medic Boss is his own person, a watered down Big Boss that had his own values and so on that doesn't jibe with my own.

A bit unrelated, but I almost thought you would have the choice to either exile or kill Huey at the trial, it really wouldn't matter storywise because leaving him out there on the oceans is basically killing him anyways and it wouldn't mess up any continuity by killing him or letting him live either way.

Uh dude, Huey reconnects with Hal and remarries. He kills himself after finding out his second wife had sex with his son. This is from MGS2. He can't die in V because of this.

The reveal of what the character creation meant has me committed to trying to pick a "canon" identity and just name him "VENOM" in future playthroughs and make a face close to what the chopper guy had (i always name Raiden's dog tags JACK in mgs2 when I replay it now.)

 

[Drencrom]

Apart from the whole "son fucking your wife-induced suicide" thing.

Uh dude, Huey reconnects with Hal and remarries. He kills himself after finding out his second wife had sex with his son. This is from MGS2. He can't die in V because of this.

Oh my god, completely forgot that from MGS2...

At least I'm happy now, knowing that piece of shit got cucked and killed himself lol

 

[News Bot]

And I don't see holes in the game's narrative.

All I need to hear.

You haven't explained how those interactions are "lessened" by Venom's intrusion though which what I'm trying to get out of you.

Yes I have. For Liquid, not only does a character-defining moment never actually happen, but he never actually met Big Boss. For Solid Snake, killing Big Boss the first time was meant to give him PTSD and he wanted to erase him for good once he heard he was still alive. He doesn't bat an eye that this Big Boss looks nothing like the other one he killed, who already didn't look like the Big Boss that trained him. Gray Fox already knew Big Boss from when he was a child and so had a better idea of what he was like as a man. If we take away that and have it so that it was Venom who rescued him and Naomi, we then have the conundrum where Gray Fox would no doubt notice that this Big Boss wasn't the Big Boss he knew. So on and so forth.

 

[Alienous]

There's no reason why we didn't get the option to pull the trigger on an empty gun pointed towards Huey's forehead.

More than anything I wanted to see him squirm.

 

[rtcn63]

Honestly though, isn't that a more poetic fate than being killed? Surviving the perilous ocean only to get cuckolded by your own son, the guy whose lab is littered with posters of anime waifus?

 

[PensOwl]

Uh dude, Huey reconnects with Hal and remarries. He kills himself after finding out his second wife had sex with his son. This is from MGS2. He can't die in V because of this.

The reveal of what the character creation meant has me committed to trying to pick a "canon" identity and just name him "VENOM" in future playthroughs and make a face close to what the chopper guy had (i always name Raiden's dog tags JACK in mgs2 when I replay it now.)

I can see why you'd name your character venom, but raidens name being your name is like half the point of the story in mgs2

 

[JackelZXA]

All I need to hear.

Thanks for the meaningful reply. You've played your hand and it's obvious you aren't able to continue engaging in this discussion. You've completely devalued your earlier posts with reducing your participation in the thread to a mere "snarky remark".

I can see why you'd name your character venom, but raidens name being your name is like half the point of the story in mgs2

Yeah I know. I just gravitated to the Jack thing. I got the "my name in the game" reaction in 2 and V, but it's really only effective the one time (still a cool trick, don't get me wrong. After that first time I like to play armchair director sometimes when I replay games sometimes)

 

[Staf]

Wait, i can't keep quiet once i finish the game? Damnit, was going to do the rest of the side ops once done. Not as much fun doing them without her.

 

[Punished_Snake]

Guys I have a question: Why in the real ending Ocelot tells the real Big Boss to change his face? Is it because he looks like Big Boss (better for hiding his identity) or the avatar (to look like Big Boss again)?

 

[News Bot]

Thanks for the meaningful reply. You've played your hand and it's obvious you aren't able to continue engaging in this discussion. You've completely devalued your earlier posts with reducing your participation in the thread to a mere "snarky remark".

No, you just laid out pretty succinctly that you aren't worth debating with. That statement was laughably delusional. Why is it that everyone but you can see them?

Guys I have a question: Why in the real ending Ocelot tells the real Big Boss to change his face? Is it because he looks like Big Boss (better for hiding his identity) or the avatar (to look like Big Boss again)?

He doesn't change his face anyway so it's just another meaningless plot detail that makes no sense.

 

[SomTervo]

Apart from the whole "son fucking your wife-induced suicide" thing.

Uh dude, Huey reconnects with Hal and remarries. He kills himself after finding out his second wife had sex with his son. This is from MGS2. He can't die in V because of this.

Oh shit, yeah. God.

The reveal of what the character creation meant has me committed to trying to pick a "canon" identity and just name him "VENOM" in future playthroughs and make a face close to what the chopper guy had (i always name Raiden's dog tags JACK in mgs2 when I replay it now.)

I loved it. I thought it was ingenious because Kojima has created a double-character. You know the argument that Trevor from GTA V was the only GTA protagonist who makes canonical sense because he is as crazy and schizophrenic as the player really is in GTA? Well I think Kojima has tried to do his own version of that. We play ourselves, under the guise of this anonymous, yet skilled and dedicated, soldier from MSF who saved BB, but we also play BB himself (as phantom) because our avatar has been conditioned to believe he is BB. So MGSV's player-character is both justified as in-game player actions and MGS-canon story actions (which are obviously rarer).

IMO Kojima succeeded.

Also i cannot enpathise with forcing a 'canon' playthrough with Venom as the name. Why bother? The point is that the guy could be anyone. Even you.

 

[Alienous]

Thanks for the meaningful reply. You've played your hand and it's obvious you aren't able to continue engaging in this discussion. You've completely devalued your earlier posts with reducing your participation in the thread to a mere "snarky remark".

You're both getting short with each other.

I'm going to settle this argument by saying that News Bot is correct.

... but seriously, I don't know, maybe you two have a fundamental difference of opinions. Perhaps ask each-other 5 questions that you think make the other person's viewpoint incorrect and we as a thread can make our own judgements on where each of you are coming from.

 

[RK9039]

Wait, i can't keep quiet once i finish the game? Damnit, was going to do the rest of the side ops once done. Not as much fun doing them without her.

So that you feel the Phantom Pain, just like the Phantom Pain over the unsatisfying conclusion. Kojima is genius, he did it again... no, one of his proxies.

 

[whyman]

So any news on this Chapter 3? Was there anything to it or just someone messing with us?

 

[Alienous]

Oh shit, yeah. God.



I loved it. I thought it was ingenious because Konima has created a double-character. You know the argument that Trevor from GTA V was the only GTA protagonist who makes canonical sense because he is as crazy and schizophrenic as the player really is in GTA? Well I think Kojima has tried to do his own version of that. We play ourselves, under the guise of this anonymous, yet skilled and dedicated, soldier from MSF who saved BB, but we also play BB himself (as phantom) because our avatar has been conditioned to believe he is BB. So MGSV's player-character is both justified as in-game player actions and MGS-canon story actions (which are obviously rarer).

IMO Kojima succeeded.

Also i cannot enpathise with forcing a 'canon' playthrough with Venom as the name. Why bother? The point is that the guy could be anyone. Even you.

How would that have changed if Venom Snake was Big Boss?

 

[BotchPoppaPump]

Responding with straw-grasping.

Nothing to suggest this anywhere. Venom being "close" to Big Boss was just a forced detail to implement justification, and it fails. Like I said before, nothing related to the twist makes sense because the twist came first and everything else had to accommodate it at any cost.

Your point being? Big Boss still leaves him to face the same threat, and even bigger threats.

Again, there's a difference between entrusting a soldier who was always 'our best' - or whatever the exact quote is - into the care of Ocelot who will take him back to MB, train him back to form, and ensure that he is equipped to take on those threats, there's a difference between this and leaving him to die in a hospital bed, where he has Zero chance of facing said threats.

You really need to have their closeness stressed? The bonds between you and the soldiers you recruit is an intrinsic part of PW through TPP. The scene in the lab is the culmination of this. It's not even something that needs to be made explicit. It's common sense. Comrades form bonds. It's just basic human behaviour.

 

[Forkball]

Do we ever find out if XOF stands for anything? Why does Zero make an organization that looks exactly the opposite of his original one if they are merely there for support of FOX? That's like Big Boss making Diamond Dogs and then secretly he made an intel group that helps DD called Dog Diamonds.

 

[Palpable]

Do we ever find out if XOF stands for anything? Why does Zero make an organization that looks exactly the opposite of his original one if they are merely there for support of FOX? That's like Big Boss making Diamond Dogs and then secretly he made an intel group that helps DD called Dog Diamonds.

"Kisses, hugs, and a big F you"

 

[Salaadin]

You're both getting short with each other.

Par for the course for this thread

 

[Alienous]

Do we ever find out if XOF stands for anything? Why does Zero make an organization that looks exactly the opposite of his original one if they are merely there for support of FOX? That's like Big Boss making Diamond Dogs and then secretly he made an intel group that helps DD called Dog Diamonds.

"Hugs, kisses and a big F' you"

 

[Lifejumper]

Did venom en snake wake up at the same time?

 

[Finalow]

wait, it was confirmed that they were working on chapter 3 but it wasn't finished in time? Not just mission 51?

 

[Alienous]

Did venom en snake wake up at the same time?

Big Boss woke up before.

It would make more sense if Big Boss was still in a coma when Zero went through with the Venom Snake plan but hey, whatever.

 

[Palpable]

Did venom en snake wake up at the same time?

I'm pretty sure Big Boss wake up weeks/months before Venom & the only reason Venom was in a coma was because it was medically induced.

 

[Jintor]

That's like Big Boss making Diamond Dogs and then secretly he made an intel group that helps DD called Dog Diamonds.

don't give out mgs6 spoilers plz

 

[Alienous]

Real Big Boss has a Diamond Dogs jacket.

Someone explain that shit.

 

[SomTervo]

How would that have changed if Venom Snake was Big Boss?

A) In all honesty, if you want to ask questions like that, i'll be honest: it wouldnt have changed anything. But that question is besides the point. It is the way it is.

B) This way it acts as a set up for the doppleganger BB in MG1.

C) I think the most important point was a thematic one. That, as a player of videogames, we enact these characters and these stories. Without us, they're nothing. Without the player's participation, a game is nothing. Kojima tried to reify that by subverting what we expected of an established character and the idea of the playable character-as-avatar.

 

[Phenomena]

The Giant Bomb twist of having the horn removed then all of the previous events in the game re-contextualized to portray Big Boss as more evil would have been better.

This is what I thought that the Truth-prologue was going to be when it popped up. Seeing the truth behind hospital escape. Big Boss killing innocents and stuff. Don't know if it would've been executed well but it fitted well with the theme of turning evil that I thought would be present in the story, lol...

 

[razzmahtazz]

Yes I have. For Liquid, not only does a character-defining moment never actually happen, but he never actually met Big Boss. For Solid Snake, killing Big Boss the first time was meant to give him PTSD and he wanted to erase him for good once he heard he was still alive. He doesn't bat an eye that this Big Boss looks nothing like the other one he killed, who already didn't look like the Big Boss that trained him. Gray Fox already knew Big Boss from when he was a child and so had a better idea of what he was like as a man. If we take away that and have it so that it was Venom who rescued him and Naomi, we then have the conundrum where Gray Fox would no doubt notice that this Big Boss wasn't the Big Boss he knew. So on and so forth.

Liquid has already made up his mind by that point. VS acted "positively" towards him and he still resents BB. Solid still fought BB, still developed PTSD from the fight because he doesn't know better, what kind of double are you if you don't play the part. Given that Grey Fox was in on the ruse, as you say, then he plays along, knowing the goal.

 

[RK9039]

Real Big Boss has a Diamond Dogs jacket.

Someone explain that shit.

Not even Kojima could explain that.

 

[Dick Justice]

Real Big Boss has a Diamond Dogs jacket.

Someone explain that shit.

Ocelot is a huge David Bowie fan, and gave BB his own custom jacket, which Miller would then rip off when starting up the new merc company, much like his burger joint.

 

[JackelZXA]

No, you just laid out pretty succinctly that you aren't worth debating with. That statement was laughably delusional. Why is it that everyone but you can see them?



He doesn't change his face anyway so it's just another meaningless plot detail that makes no sense.

Maybe you're just overlooking elements? It's quite possible that you just missed something. I'm not the only set of replies that don't have these problems with the narrative, though and I feel overall the thread's interesting. (I don't get where this "everyone" thing comes from? Peer Pressure isn't something I really care about.)

You're both getting short with each other.

I'm going to settle this argument by saying that News Bot is correct.

... but seriously, I don't know, maybe you two have a fundamental difference of opinions. Perhaps ask each-other 5 questions that you think make the other person's viewpoint incorrect and we as a thread can make our own judgements on where each of you are coming from.

I dunno like...I still like the game's story and I feel like what it did for the lore was great. That's my viewpoint and I'd love to continue actually discussing it.

I don't want to actually cause any actual fights, I don't feel like I'm getting short but if others think it's going far then yeah it's probably good to stop there. I get the sense of instigation with that discussion and...yeah I get what you mean. I'll slow my roll on there. I could probably come up with a list of good questions, but I'm kind of exhausted from the posts so far. Probably not worth continuing that right now, anyways.

 

[News Bot]

Again, there's a difference between entrusting a soldier who was always 'our best' - or whatever the exact quote is - into the care of Ocelot who will take him back to MB, train him back to form, and ensure that he is equipped to take on those threats, there's a difference between this and leaving him to die in a hospital bed, where he has Zero chance of facing said threats.

You really need to have their closeness stressed? The bonds between you and the soldiers you recruit is an intrinsic part of PW through TPP. The scene in the lab is the culmination of this. It's not even something that needs to be made explicit. It's common sense. Comrades form bonds. It's just basic human behaviour.

Their closeness is a forced plot point that was completely non-existent before. Even in GZ there is absolutely no indication of it. He's just a random, faceless, nameless grunt. It's not much better than the "long lost brother" cliché. An explanation isn't automatically good by the virtue that they bothered making one up at all.

Liquid has already made up his mind by that point. VS acted "positively" towards him and he still resents BB. Solid still fought BB, still developed PTSD from the fight because he doesn't know better, what kind of double are you if you don't play the part. Given that Grey Fox was in on the ruse, as you say, then he plays along, knowing the goal.

More nonsense excuses. His mind isn't "made up" by that point. He outright references an entire event in MGS1 that never happened. This is a major problem because it's a huge part of Liquid's character.

 

[Punished_Snake]

No, you just laid out pretty succinctly that you aren't worth debating with. That statement was laughably delusional. Why is it that everyone but you can see them?



He doesn't change his face anyway so it's just another meaningless plot detail that makes no sense.

Maybe they showed real big Boss face (instead of the avatar) in the ending so the player can recognize him and point out that he doesn't have a horn and bionic arm?

 

[Jintor]

Real Big Boss has a Diamond Dogs jacket.

Someone explain that shit.

dude likes bowie

 

[Hystzen]

Big Boss is such a Bowie fan he has nerve send a tape to Venom saying "From the Man who sold the world" what a dick

 

[BotchPoppaPump]

Their closeness is a forced plot point that was completely non-existent before. Even in GZ there is absolutely no indication of it. He's just a random, faceless, nameless grunt. It's not much better than the "long lost brother" cliché.

That's the point. And he was willing to give his life for BB. As they all are. This is the legend of BB. You fall in love with it.

 

[SomTervo]

Oh - ive done all 10 wandering MB soldier missions, and have given Paz the pictures, but i'm not getting any cutscene or anything. Am i missing something?

Their closeness is a forced plot point that was completely non-existent before. Even in GZ there is absolutely no indication of it. He's just a random, faceless, nameless grunt. It's not much better than the "long lost brother" cliché.

Did you ignore my post where i address this? It's not a question of closeness. I think the person you're responding to is using the wrong word.

It's the established culture of MSF that everyone tries to protect everyone else. They're a 'family', and this has been developed/reinforced countless times since Peace Walker. In this guy's case he sacrificed himself to save BB, (so Zero knows for a fact he would give up his whole existence for BB - eg being a double) and was the only person known to be on the chopper with BB who could fill in as a double.

You seem to be swapping your argument between the story being 'forced' and the story 'having plot holes'.

The former is facetious because every story ever made is 'forced'. The more you try to scrutiny any story the more you will be aware of this.

The second i disagree with - i cant think of a single plot hole except Quiet needing to be naked so she could breathe.

 

[Alienous]

A) In all honesty, if you want to ask questions like that, i'll be honest: it wouldnt have changed anything. But that question is besides the point. It is the way it is.

B) This way it acts as a set up for the doppleganger BB in MG1.

C) I think the most important point was a thematic one. That, as a player of videogames, we enact these characters and these stories. Without us, they're nothing. Without the player's participation, a game is nothing. Kojima tried to reify that by subverting what we expected of an established character and the idea of the playable character-as-avatar.

Right, but my point is that says everything about the concept and nothing about the execution.

I don't think the people who dislike the twist are opposed to the player-as-protagonist idea. Raiden in MGS2 was that, an avatar for the player, but that wove itself into the narrative; Raiden has expectations of who Solid Snake is, he's a Solid Snake fanboy (like most MGS fans would have been) and it's a game about trying to live up to expectations (like Kojima trying to make a good sequel to MGS1). That's intelligent.

That's far different to an M. Night Shyamalan twist of "look, it was you all along(!)". All that serves to do is convolute the Metal Gear narrative. The twist provides no insight, it's just there. And it's not like it didn't have potential. They could have tried to skilfully execute the twist, perhaps to say "You've wondered why Big Boss became the villain, but it was you, the player, who unquestioningly followed the story and did the bad things that created an image of Big Boss as a bad guy". Like, that would be saying something. That would be interesting. But all it really is in MGSV, is "You weren't Big Boss, gotcha".

It just isn't very good.

(Also, the 'doppelgänger' Big Boss in MG1 needed no set-up, because it clearly wasn't a doppelgänger in that game, originally)