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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
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Which, you know, is exactly what I was contending about your post. You said that her bodily functions is just her enjoying herself and that her way she breathes is just a theory proposed by the characters. You've basically changed the argument.
And for the record, air isn't something you stop breathing during night time. Her being captive at night has nothing to do with her capabilities so I'm not sure why you're using that as a crux for your argument. It doesn't matter what time of day it was or how long she was out. She couldn't breathe with the clothes on.
Charlouie Jonesman
Banned
The plot of the old games in relation to the MGS titles has always been fairly vague, so this isn't even that much of an issue imo.
The game that actually suffers the most from these retcons is MGS4 and all the revelations of Big Boss's and Zero's history, the entire ending scene with Big Boss etc..
Now whether you hate or tolerate MGS4's story, but it's pretty funny to me that this title gets hit in particular, seeing as it's still one of the more recent titles and the farthest away in the timeline.
I mean sure, it's not like satisfying answers matters at all to Kojima.
All those moments commit to whatever angle they're taking, but the tapes can't decide.
No research was conducted to do so. The medic already had Big Boss' voice at just a slightly lower pitch. And "plastic surgery" is mentioned as a complete throwaway, as if this is what celebrities get in the universe.
Edit: Sorry, fudged my quote tags there for a bit.
Did you read my post? It doesn't sound like it. My point is that the canon doesn't invalidate it. The point is that Fake Big Boss is just as much Big Boss as Big Boss himself. He has the same memories, the same thoughts, and the same abilities. They've obviously adjusted how he speaks, too (this can be done through hypnotism IRL, funnily enough). Edit: although he had the same voice in the GZ cutscene, which is obviously just Kojima trolling.
The Medic is dead. And not just dead, non-existent. His character doesn't exist from the helicopter crash in GZ. The character has been erased. The instant that crash happens, in the canon, they immediately start engineering him to be a non-genetic clone of Big Boss. Basically the same guy. Even with the reveal of who he is, it's clear that he's totally detached from who he was before and isn't that person anymore. Hence why, after the initial realisation, 'nothing is said' beyond that. There's nothing to say.
Actually, I fully concede that it doesn't link up the 'Big Boss is a heinous villain' aspect. I haven't considered that at all until now. That is the only aspect I would admit feels unfinished about the whole thing. I don't think we need to address that the player is a part in Big Boss's downfall. I don't think that's relevant. But I do think they should have displayed how exactly he became such an antagonist.
Although, arguably, he was a villain from Peace Walker when he made it his job to propagate war and war machines and nuclear weapons and shit. That is what we were fighting all along as Solid Snake and that is what Big Boss has embodied since the 70s. So I guess it had already happened, arguably - but that doesn't change the fact that MGSV doesn't mention it at all in its conclusion.
1. I'd argue it's a twist with story ramifications within MGSV's plot. As in, only the plot it truly impacts is MGSV's. It didn't need to impact the whole series' lore or be embedded in it. I think it was brave to create this self-contained idea.
2. It's mainly study of games as a medium and how players interact with games. In a more literal/meta way than MGS2's "the character is the character from the last one and you're still him but he's a different lame guy" etc, which I never bought into. MGSV's approach is not dissimilar to 'Would You Kindly', imo. Very similar, in fact, though WYK is tied closely with the plot, obviously, where MGSV's is intentionally not.
I felt like that! I didn't feel like I wasted my time at all. I appreciated the point the twist was conveying and agreed with it. I agreed with what Snake said. I didn't feel sentimental about it, I just though, "Yep, he's right. If actions are all that matter, I've spent the last 70 hours doing Big Boss's actions. Hence I am Big Boss as much as this guy on the tape."
And it made seeing Snake in the last cutscene at the end of episode 46 feel meaningful and important. It also explained why, even though we seemed to be playing Snake, he never spoke much - which could have been explained by brain damage after the coma (what I thought all along).
Did you read my post? It doesn't sound like it. My point is that the canon doesn't invalidate it. The point is that Fake Big Boss is just as much Big Boss as Big Boss himself. He has the same memories, the same thoughts, and the same abilities. They've obviously adjusted how he speaks, too (this can be done through hypnotism IRL, funnily enough). Edit: although he had the same voice in the GZ cutscene, which is obviously just Kojima trolling.
The Medic is dead. And not just dead, non-existent. His character doesn't exist from the helicopter crash in GZ. The character has been erased. The instant that crash happens, in the canon, they immediately start engineering him to be a non-genetic clone of Big Boss. Basically the same guy. Even with the reveal of who he is, it's clear that he's totally detached from who he was before and isn't that person anymore. Hence why, after the initial realisation, 'nothing is said' beyond that. There's nothing to say.
Actually, I fully concede that it doesn't link up the 'Big Boss is a heinous villain' aspect. I haven't considered that at all until now. That is the only aspect I would admit feels unfinished about the whole thing. I don't think we need to address that the player is a part in Big Boss's downfall. I don't think that's relevant. But I do think they should have displayed how exactly he became such an antagonist.
Although, arguably, he was a villain from Peace Walker when he made it his job to propagate war and war machines and nuclear weapons and shit. That is what we were fighting all along as Solid Snake and that is what Big Boss has embodied since the 70s. So I guess it had already happened, arguably - but that doesn't change the fact that MGSV doesn't mention it at all in its conclusion.
1. I'd argue it's a twist with story ramifications within MGSV's plot. As in, only the plot it truly impacts is MGSV's. It didn't need to impact the whole series' lore or be embedded in it. I think it was brave to create this self-contained idea.
2. It's mainly study of games as a medium and how players interact with games. In a more literal/meta way than MGS2's "the character is the character from the last one and you're still him but he's a different lame guy" etc, which I never bought into. MGSV's approach is not dissimilar to 'Would You Kindly', imo. Very similar, in fact, though WYK is tied closely with the plot, obviously, where MGSV's is intentionally not.
I felt like that! I didn't feel like I wasted my time at all. I appreciated the point the twist was conveying and agreed with it. I agreed with what Snake said. I didn't feel sentimental about it, I just though, "Yep, he's right. If actions are all that matter, I've spent the last 70 hours doing Big Boss's actions. Hence I am Big Boss as much as this guy on the tape."
And it made seeing Snake in the last cutscene at the end of episode 46 feel meaningful and important. It also explained why, even though we seemed to be playing Snake, he never spoke much - which could have been explained by brain damage after the coma (what I thought all along).
BotchPoppaPump
Member
Dude we are just going off into fantasy land now. I don't know, the doctor was a pioneer in such complex complete facial reconstruction surgery and Venom was his first fully realised case. But then he died and all of his techniques, research, papers, whatever were lost in some ancillary room because of Volgin's fire. Consequently, it proved a one off procedure that could never be repeated.
Thus, somewhere in Hollywood, Decoy Octopus breathed a sigh of relief.
It was a bit weird in hindsight. In light of MGSV, Big Boss knows that Zero is a good guy who looked out for him. Then 30 years later, he shoots the guy.
Although I guess the point was that he wanted to close the whole thing off once and for all, and that was his resolution. Regardless of whether Zero was a 'good' or 'bad' guy.
Also absolutely agreed about MGSV getting targeted specifically. Probably due to hype-backlash and it being the Kojima swansong. If people went through MGS4 with the fine-tooth comb they're scraping MGSV with, they'd lose their minds.
I think you're misunderstanding parts of my explanation, so I'm gonna lay it out super cleanly.
1. Quiet only needs to expose any part of her skin to breath, and can breath wearing normal clothes.
2. Quiet can subsist for long periods of time without needing to feed.
3. Quiet is naked because she enjoys the additional senses her body has to their utmost.
4. Before joining big boss she was in cipher's group and would have had living quarters where she could recharge. After joining big boss she still had living quarters to recharge on sunlight and water.
5. She is lost from big boss for a long enough period of time that she runs out of energy. She expends her energy in a harsh environment that she ends up captured when she isn't able to recharge.
6. The only constant to her gaining her ability back is water. She is not unable to breath, she is dried out. Without water the human body has trouble functioning properly. this is what is happening to her in this scene. She's dried out. She needs water, sunlight, and air to live. She lost access to one of those. The water brings her back, which means the water was what she was running low on. (This is reinforced because after the battle she dries out again, having not fully recovered.)
I think that covers it in a consistent manner.
I honestly would have loved to play Metal Gear /. The age issue could have been sidestepped with hormone therapy and surgical touchups on top of Solidus' already-accelerated aging - a bit of a contrivance, but the thematic resonance would absolutely be worth it, unlike with the medic - plus, Solidus was intended to be a Big Boss duplicate from the beginning. His desperate grasp for identity, his history as a Patriot pawn, the motivation he had for 'creating' Raiden in the first place, it'd all be enriched by MGSV's scenario rather than working against it. They could even retcon Diamond Dogs into being the same group as the Army of the Devil.
Also, it makes sense for Solidus to vape.
That's an inference. In order to conduct a medical process, a precedent is either set or becomes set. The act of creating venom snake would BECOME research to future generations. It was a proven test of a procedure. Venom Snake is now the first time in MGS history that someone does what Decoy Octopus did in MGS1. At that point, it becomes possible for the player to draw a line between these two points and infer this solution.
Additionally, for the suggestion that all his research was lost in the fire and assassination...keep in mind that this was a cipher deal. Cipher could have very well kept all Venom Snake procedures on file, and perhaps this wound up influencing Decoy Octopus (Keep in mind we're talking about a game where The End's photosynthesis ends up being a key plot point of this story)
Dick Justice
Banned
Worst part about this game is the removal of Snake's machine gun battle cry.
https://youtu.be/wA5K5mUm_Yk?t=8m57s
https://youtu.be/oDCZHDBmhpA?t=2m9s
https://youtu.be/wA5K5mUm_Yk?t=8m57s
https://youtu.be/oDCZHDBmhpA?t=2m9s
That's a good point and does make sense. Presumably Decoy Octopus just becomes really adept at the process Venom Snake/Ahab/Phantom Boss went through (not to mention Revolver Ocelot, with his self-hypnotism junk).
You know this game fucked up when the fans have to fill in all the blanks with nothing but speculation, even things that weren't "blank" before or at least didn't need any kind of explanation. I think we're not really Big Boss like some people seem to think MGSV suggests... I think we're all
. That is the real message behind this game, that MGS can live on without Kojima because "Kojima" will always be there.
KOJIMA YOU GENIUS.
Kojima
KOJIMA YOU GENIUS.
Weird. Since you put it as "actions do matter..."
Maybe the problem I felt was that mgsv's actions are by their nature limited to MGSV. If you look at what venom actually does, most of it is concerned with stopping plans that only take place in MGSV. So even though obviously venom stopping skullface, theoretically eli etc are important, they also don't feel important in the greater sense of the series.
Instead, the real important things that happen in the game in terms of the overall lore, you didn't do (or see do, or experienced as it happened, however you want to phrase it). Turns out they all happened before the game even started, because this other guy or group of guys or whatever set it all up.
I felt like my actions had been for nothing. Like I'd built something only for it to be revealed it was utterly pointless. I'd experienced this journey, only it wasn't a journey for the character I thought it was, and then had the nerve to try and tell me "it all mattered! Really!" when that was the precise opposite of the way I instinctively felt.
False. Quiet tries to murder anyone who puts any sort of clothing on her after Diamond Dogs captures her. The Sniper Wolf and XOF outfits are acanonical bonus items.
Punished_Snake
Member
Then how can you explain Quiet's final mission? She's almost completely dressed/ covered with clothes until the soldier tried to rape her.
Considering how much the game tried hammering in that Quiet stays naked for the sake of breathing and that this was Kojima's ultimate "excuse" for her design (not that she wanted to be naked, but that she HAD to be naked), this is still only a selective way of seeing it. Otherwise there would be no reason to depict her wearing clothes in that sequence and display the rape segment the way it was. Breathing with only her face is equivalent to only breathing in a cramped room. She's still suffocating by not getting enough air.
Point still stands and my original mention of it being an equal combination still rings true, no matter what time of day it was depicted and no matter how much she enjoys rain.
Didn't you look at her? She was purple and frail almost dying!
That's not right. All that says is she hates people trying to put clothes on her. That doesn't mean she needs to be naked to breath, nor does the game ever actually make that specific notion. All it means is that she is simply keeping herself naked when they try to clothe her, and that's all that means. My point still stands as working within the story.
Afterall, we have 2 other characters in the series with her same condition that breath through their face and head in The End and Code Talker. This means that there are two data points that can point to her not needing to be naked to breath. There is nothing that suggests it is a need rather than a desire, but Desire fulfills more of the criteria. Desire doesn't contradict code talker, but Need is a contradiction, which means desire is more likely the right answer.
But it's water that brings her back. less clothes is irrelevant. Code Talker proves this.
Punished_Snake
Member
Yes, she can barely breath. Less clothes is better for her.
It also didn't matter, canonically. The nature of the events of The Phantom Pain mean that you didn't even contribute to Big Boss' legacy.
Chakra_Khan
Member
I also think it was asenine of kojima to demistify the the cobra unit with parasites, the midiclorians of mgs universe.
Also, Hal being put in sahelanthropus was stupid as well.
Also, " Cunt bumping in heaven" is the title of a new song I'm working after listening to that strangelove suffocation tape.
Also, Hal being put in sahelanthropus was stupid as well.
Also, " Cunt bumping in heaven" is the title of a new song I'm working after listening to that strangelove suffocation tape.
What? I thought The End and Code Talker had the ability to replenish energy through photosynthesis, where is there stated that they can survive without breathing through their lungs?
Dick Justice
Banned
The End used the sun for energy. He doesn't breathe through his skin, he also snores when he sleeps.
Quiet breathes with her are because her lungs are charred (though that doesn't make her unable to speak, for some reason), her skin breathing is nothing more than an excuse to put her in a bikini.
She obviously isn't opposed to wearing clothes in the Prologue, so it is portrayed that she operates better without clothing, not that she chooses not to wear clothing.
I wouldn't know off-hand. It's only my first time beating the game, but I'm pretty sure there's a line about Code Talker and Quiet having the same abilities/parasites and that they all came from The End. (I know there's a part where Code Talker laments not being able to study the rest of the cobra unit to implement their abilities into parasites as well)
Punished_Snake
Member
Really?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOQSt8LzsPI
Ocelot : "showers are okay, but she can't be submerged".
Lostconfused
Member
Not everyone can be a jaded young man forever.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Ok so you don't know what you're talking about. Ocelot clearly says that clothes would suffocate her. So it's a need to be partially naked in order to breathe fine.
I'm pretty sure that there's a point in the game where you find out Code Talker has the same parasites as Quiet. There's nothing in the game that says that she needs to be naked to breath, just that she breaths through her skin. That's an inference, and cannot wholly be cast against the game, as the narrative does not supplement it. Conflicting elements of the story would cast the need aspect of her nakedness as not being true.
tldr: In order for need to be true, it has to be inferred by the game AND not conflict with anything. Because it creates conflicts, while desire does not create a conflict, desire would be the more true option.
No, I know what I'm talking about, I just don't know where you can go to find it. There's so much data from codetalker I'd have to actually put research time into finding an exact quote.
She isn't submerged. She is waterboarded. But if you check the scene, her head is left above water after the soldier thinks she's passed out.
Dick Justice
Banned
The part after capturing her, where she's in her cell and Ocelot's talking about her, he says right there that clothing would suffocate her.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
You know I'm replaying MG1 and MG2 and this game kind of has more story than either of those games (separately, not put together)
Not saying this is making MGSV's lack of story ok, but, it's interesting
Not saying this is making MGSV's lack of story ok, but, it's interesting
Dick Justice
Banned
Well no shit, they're games from 25 years ago on much more primitive machines.
Dude if you are not certain of something just don't talk about it like you know it's a fact. Here see this video and get your facts straight. Such a pointless discussion.
And when she is almost raped she comes back to life because the soldier drops her pants exposing her skin so she can breathe better, while she is only partially submerged.
Charlouie Jonesman
Banned
To be fair about the whole Vamp=Nanomachines thing: Metal Gear fans kinda brought that upon themselves.
During the MGS2/3 years he was a thorn in the sides of many fans actually. "What is a vampire doing in my Metal Gear, Kojima!? I want a rational explanation!", nevermind that the first game had Psycho Mantis and everything.
So yeah, people definitly were demanding answers for his vampiery and invincibility in MGS4, and if "He's a supernatural vampire, because it makes for a cool boss.", is not good enough, there's not much else you can do, other than "Okay, it's sci-fi stuff then.".
Kojima caved in a little too much with MGS4 as far as fan service goes and it blew back hard. I'm pretty sure that's also the main reason for the fake Liquid-arm revelation.
"Liquid taking over Ocelot's body through his arm didn't go over that well. Uh, okay, it's just a ruse then.".
Nevermind that both was true according to the database. That was probably just to appease both camps.
That being said, I don't think anyone seriously demanded an explanation about the Cobras at this point, so I blame this all on Kojima.
During the MGS2/3 years he was a thorn in the sides of many fans actually. "What is a vampire doing in my Metal Gear, Kojima!? I want a rational explanation!", nevermind that the first game had Psycho Mantis and everything.
So yeah, people definitly were demanding answers for his vampiery and invincibility in MGS4, and if "He's a supernatural vampire, because it makes for a cool boss.", is not good enough, there's not much else you can do, other than "Okay, it's sci-fi stuff then.".
Kojima caved in a little too much with MGS4 as far as fan service goes and it blew back hard. I'm pretty sure that's also the main reason for the fake Liquid-arm revelation.
"Liquid taking over Ocelot's body through his arm didn't go over that well. Uh, okay, it's just a ruse then.".
Nevermind that both was true according to the database. That was probably just to appease both camps.
That being said, I don't think anyone seriously demanded an explanation about the Cobras at this point, so I blame this all on Kojima.
At this point it's a discussion of how much clothing it would take. Would shaving her head allow her to breath easier while covering her upper body? What if she wore a vest, shorts? It gets muddy because there are no specifics that dictate what she needs to breathe properly. The vest is an easter egg, but it also is given as a mandatory unlock for progressing the story (you get her torture scene before you're able to get her run-away mission) and it displays in cutscenes that don't use the high articulation model (in mgs4, old snake would lose his face mask when switching to the high articulation model) There's not enough to form a total conclusion on the matter, and there are conflicting elements that make it difficult to nail down. Because of that, I cannot accept the current popular interpretation as faultless.
I was referring to the code talker connection. Do you remember how slow that guy talks?
She's not partially submerged. Her head from ear level forward is above water. Only the back of her scalp is resting in the water. She gets waterboarded, and isn't left submerged after she passes out. Exposing her legs could have something to do with it, but again, the mechanics of how she works are not clear enough to form a conclusion. She's said to run dry after the mission, and the mission can take place at night. This means that it can't be sun, it could be air, but water is emphasized.
I'm actually referring to the scene in mission 45, not the scene in her cell.
Punished_Snake
Member
Yes, because she is taking a shower, if she submerges underwater, she wouldn't be able to breath.
It isn't the fault of the fans. Kojima asked questions that didn't have satisfying answers and the fans couldn't have known that. So of course you want to know where the vampire came from, or who the Patriots are, but that's before you know that the answer is going to be pulled out of someone's ass.
Dude accept that Kojima is a faultless being whose every flaw truly rests with the fans.
Punished_Snake
Member
If Kojima didn't explain the cobras, fans will say " He explained Quiet and why she is naked, but didn't explain what's up with the cobras." Kojima answered possible questions from the fans.
Charlouie Jonesman
Banned
The Patriots reveal is bullshit and Kojima could've come up with thousands of better answers, but no, it had to be your wacky comic relief support team from MGS3.
But regarding Vamp, I'm really not sure there's really a much better answer than "Sci-fi stuff", if fans are demanding an explanation and, "He's a vampire, deal with it", is not acceptable.
In the end, the nanomachines explanation for him isn't even that bad. The problem is that they're used for almost EVERYTHING.
But regarding Vamp, I'm really not sure there's really a much better answer than "Sci-fi stuff", if fans are demanding an explanation and, "He's a vampire, deal with it", is not acceptable.
In the end, the nanomachines explanation for him isn't even that bad. The problem is that they're used for almost EVERYTHING.
Exactly zero fans wanted to know how The Cobras got infected with parasites.
Try to keep track of what you're talking about because you are all over the place.
SHE NEEDS TO BE NAKED TO BREATH, FACT.
Nah, following the MGSV hype cycle you'd be surprised how little "Hey, I want to know how The Pain controls bees" there was. I don't think I spotted any.
People don't want any old answers, they want satisfying ones, and Kojima doesn't seem to know the difference. People can tell when you pull a solution out of your ass. So it's best to leave it as a mystery if you can't give people an answer that they can be excited about.
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