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[Who]

The human species lived for 100s of thousands of years before discovering agriculture, starting civilization etc.

I mean shit, fast forward 12,000 years later and we have fucked up everything. We're killing the earth, we've waged global wars, we've instituted slavery which is still live and well today, were fucking shit up. We're causing humans to suffer on such large scales today that wouldn't even be possible without civilization, technology etc.

Does anyone else feel like the universe would of been better off if we would have just stayed in harmony with nature? I mean fuck, the natural evolutionary process that took us from single cell organisms to the complex and intelligent creatures we are today, we said "fuck you" to that process, decided we could do it better, and here we are today. Disgusting evil and greedy brings that bit the hand that fed us for centuries, and ugh, here we are.

This is absolutely a drunk thread but there's gotta be something worth considering in that mess of words I just typed out on my iPhone 6™

EDIT: Sobered up, everyone should just watch this instead.

http://youtu.be/Yocja_N5s1I

All the points I could have possibly made are expressed much better by this guy.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You think we all lived in peace before that?

Yes, it was a good thing.

 

[Yobalt]

That's a fucking stupid question.

YES.

 

[FrenchToastDisciple]

We'll figure it out this century I figure.

For those of you saying "wtf of course," note that civilization has made billions of people's lives more miserable than they would have been otherwise, through political domination and exploitation of labor. Modern medicine and the like are remarkable achievements, but make no mistake. They've been built on the suffering of the underclasses. I have no doubt that a majority of individuals existing since the dawn of civilization probably would have been better off without the massive suffering caused by inequality caused by civilization. Yeah, lots of people died of relatively trivial ailments during the hunter gatherer phase of human history, but the overall quality of life and happiness for the average human being was almost certainly better under that epoch than under the vast majority of human civilization.

But yeah, I'm no fetishist of the "natural" relationship between humans and nature, so if we could just figure out how to distribute this enormous wealth semi-equitably without making this planet completely unihabitable, then, yeah, civilization will have been worth it in the long run.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

idk i like to think it was

 

[Who]

You think we all lived in peace before that?

Yes, it was a good thing.

Not in peace no, but the scale of human suffering has most certainly increased since then.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I mean fuck, the natural evolutionary process that took us from single cell organisms to the complex and intelligent creatures we are today, we said "fuck you" to that process, decided we could do it better, and here we are today.

We didn't say "fuck you" to anything. We are still part of that process.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

You think we all lived in peace before that?

Yes, it was a good thing.

This

Hunter gatherers had tribe conflicts all the time.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Despite the challenges and some clear negative traits, it was still doubtlessly a good thing. We won't have specialized jobs (Doctors, Artists, Engineers, etc) if not for agriculture and civilization. I hope you enjoy dying from a tooth infection.

 

[Princess Viola]

yes it was good

 

[Who]

This

Hunter gatherers had tribe conflicts all the time.

Indeed they did, but it was limited to small isolated conflicts, not global wars with slavery and all that shit

 

[kirblar]

We all die eventually anyway when the sun blows up on us.

So yes, better quality of life is absolutely worth it.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Not in peace no, but the scale of human suffering has most certainly increased since then.

I don't think so. We just have more people now, so there are more people suffering. But also a lot more people having a reasonably good live.

Indeed they did, but it was limited to small isolated conflicts, not global wars with slavery and all that shit

When you break it out towards the actual percentages involved, we actually live in a pretty peaceful time now.

 

[guek]

Good and evil are constructs if you don't believe in some kind of higher power. So in the grand scheme of things, we're just mold on a dust ball flying through space and none of it matters anyway.

 

[MikeDip]

Right now, at this very moment in time, is the best time any species on earth has ever had it so far. And it's because of those two things in your title.

So yes, they are good.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Indeed they did, but it was limited to small isolated conflicts, not global wars with slavery and all that shit

they had slavery

 

[Who]

they had slavery

There is literally no indication that we had slaves back then, unless you are able to enlighten me otherwise

 

[Calamari41]

Not in peace no, but the scale of human suffering has most certainly increased since then.

The scale of human suffering is way down from the days of WWI through WWII.

 

[patapuf]

Indeed they did, but it was limited to small isolated conflicts, not global wars with slavery and all that shit

Slavery dates back to before agriculture.

The scale was smaller then, because there were less people. If you look how animals treat each other in the fight for survival, humans did the same. It was a different kind of suffering, but suffer we did.

"in harmony with nature" is a romantisation. Life back then could suck even more than it does today.

 

[hipbabboom]

Lets get one of many things straight. We are not killing the Earth by any stretch of the imagination. The earth will be just fine. Life will be just fine. At the most extreme, we will just wipe ourselves out. The hubris to think of ourselves as so significant is fantastic.... my god!

 

[Switch Back 9]

The scale of human suffering is way down from the days of WWI through WWII.

I think we kind of peaked with the Holocaust, Chinese Revolution and Stalinism.

We're on the downslope of evil and suffering, things have factually never been better.

Also, OP, if you think things were better back then you need to read more.

 

[jchap]

Yes lets go back to 30 year lifespans

 

[Who]

Lets get one of many things straight. We are not killing the Earth by any stretch of the imagination. The earth will be just fine. Life will be just fine. At the most extreme, we will just wipe ourselves out. The hubris to think of ourselves as so significant is fantastic.... my god!

Right right, pollution and global warming doesn't exist, my bad

 

[Kabouter]

No time in humanity's history was so violent as when we were hunter/gatherers. Civilization was absolutely a good thing.

 

[Who]

I think we kind of peaked with the Holocaust, Chinese Revolution and Stalinism.

We're on the downslope of evil and suffering, things have factually never been better.

In civilized society sure, not in the third world. Then you consider things like Foxconn and blood diamonds etc etc

 

[patapuf]

Right right, pollution and global warming doesn't exist, my bad

The earth actually doesn't give a shit how hot it is, and climate change isn't the end of all life. New species will arise.

 

[Zeppu]

Right right, pollution and global warming doesn't exist, my bad

Doesn't mean it will destroy the planet or life. Just the current iteration of life tops, but the plant will survive just fine.

 

[TheXbox]

In the long run, yeah. But some thousand years ago, if I had the choice between living in a stank ass city in Mesopotamia or living in a hunter-gatherer tribe, I'd go with the latter. Early civilizations were shit unless you were rich.

 

[liliththepale]

If you think civilization is so bad, go fid some wild landscape to live in. Most of us love civilization!

 

[MjFrancis]

Humans are a distinct part of nature, and any morality that that considers civilization and agriculture "bad" as opposed to "good" isn't a system worth pursuing, given the plausible alternatives.

 

[Saucy_XL]

Harmony with nature? No


One thing is that pre-agriculture we "worked" only 15-20 hours a week and had fewer diseases like cavities and arthritis.

 

[Switch Back 9]

In civilized society sure, not in the third world. Then you consider things like Foxconn and blood diamonds etc etc

K, so imagine the third world being way worse, and everywhere. Because that's how it used to be.

Harmony with nature? No


One thing is that pre-agriculture we "worked" only 15-20 hours a week and had fewer diseases like cavities and arthritis.

Cavities aren't a disease and I'd take that over a common cold killing everyone in my tribe and the cave elder being 32-years-old.

 

[Who]

In the long run, yeah. But some thousand years ago, if I had the choice between living in a stank ass city in Mesopotamia or living in a hunter-gatherer tribe, I'd go with the latter. Early civilizations were shit unless you were rich.

I think the same applies today unfortunately

 

[MikeDip]

I absolutely hate that "we aren't in harmony with nature now" thing

No we aren't. Why do you think that? I see it a lot and it never makes sense.

 

[Fusion Pizza]

You fucking serious, without Civilization you wouldn't even be able to complain, you would be too busy trying you're best not to be dinner for a crocodile or a lion or some other predator.

 

[EBE]

By your own admission this is a drunk thread, so I won't waste any time telling you how absolutely fucking stupid your question is.
I respond simply, yes.

 

[commedieu]

There is literally no indication that we had slaves back then, unless you are able to enlighten me otherwise

Yes there is, the worlds oldest society -- Sumerians, had slavery.

The Sumerian Code of Ur-Nammu includes laws relating to slaves, written circa 2100 – 2050 BCE; it is the oldest known tablet containing a law code surviving today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

Your problems are with Capitalism/Greed. Agriculture comes naturally when you get enough people that don't want to keep traveling long distances to eat.

 

[Calamari41]

In civilized society sure, not in the third world. Then you consider things like Foxconn and blood diamonds etc etc

I'm pretty sure the Chinese and Indians who built the railroads during the 19th century would have much preferred to work at a Foxconn facility instead.

 

[mrdeiz]

Sounds like new "alternative media" adept's bold statements.

You better quit watching that bs

 

[umop_3pisdn]

More time for endeavours that don't centre entirely around survival. That's a pretty big plus.

 

[Who]

Yes there is, the worlds oldest society -- Sumerians, had slavery.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

Your problems are with Capitalism/Greed. Agriculture comes naturally when you get enough people that don't want to keep traveling long distances to eat.

The Sumerians and Mesopotamians would qualify as civilizations

 

[DiipuSurotu]

The only thing that was better back then is people didn't have acne, lol.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I dont know about you OP, but I like existing. Especially with all the things sedentary civilisation has brought us.

 

[FrenchToastDisciple]

No time in humanity's history was so violent as when we were hunter/gatherers. Civilization was absolutely a good thing.

If this is actually true, then I guess I take back my post. It's possible my view of hunter gatherer society is skewed by reactionary anthropological thought challenging the inherent goodness of civilization (of which I remember no actual details) I read while I was an undergraduate.

Regardless, I still think it's still important to mostly focus on the suffering civilization has wrought in conversations like this because the benefits are much more obvious and taken for granted.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

[POSTMODERNISM INTENSIFIES]

But lol seriously? I'd rather not have to run down megafauna with my tribal bands just to not die.

 

[John Dunbar]

lol did they even have dank memes before agriculture?

 

[Pete Rock]

Everyone wants to convince themselves it is because nobody wants to live a lie

However, believing that you own anything is the biggest lie of all

It is the gift of life. You have nothing to defend. You are already alive. You don't need to "earn a living".

Ownership is a result of the need to protect excess stock. Excess stock is only produced through agriculture and permanent settlement.

Fire for the man who build the first fence
And him friend who signed paper as evidence

But but but but the world was a violent place before civilization and all this progress you say. The universe is a cold violent machine of brutal indifferent violence you say!!!

Look around and tell me what you see ??? violence and hatred everywhere

It's like we never learn ...

 

[Who]

I dont know about you OP, but I like existing. Especially with all the things sedentary civilisation has brought us.

First world luxuries come at the cost of millions of others suffering in slavery though

 

[Kabouter]

If this is actually true, then I guess I take back my post. It's possible my view of hunter gatherer society is skewed by reactionary anthropological thought challenging the inherent goodness of civilization (of which I remember no actual details) I read while I was an undergraduate.

Regardless, I still think it's still important to mostly focus on the suffering civilization has wrought in conversations like this because the benefits are much more obvious and taken for granted.

We've actually even observed it amongst other hominidae.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I think the same applies today unfortunately

If you live in a first world country, that is absolutely not true.