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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

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I been thinking.

Solid Snake > Big Boss as a soldier.

MGS2 made Raiden about equal to Solid Snake. If MGS4 never happened, Raiden would be the best soldier in the world due to his age not being a limited factor.
 
Finally finished this damn game after doing several side ops to unlock mission 46...which was a replay of the god damn opening. I never thought I wasn't going to hate another MGS game after Peace Walker and believed Kojima can make this one alot better than that piece of shit since he isn't restricted to making it for a handheld...but oooooooh boy was I wrong. What a disappointing conclusion to a legendary series.
 
Morts said:
This is how I took it at the time, since The Boss spent the whole game calling him Jack. In the decade since I've learned that Jack is short for John, which is dumb.
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Alienous said:
What?

Big Boss has the final say on everything, Kaz just handles the logistics of managing Diamond Dogs.

It's highlighted several times. Kaz tells the DD soldiers to shoot quiet, but ultimately it's Big Boss' call. Same with Huey's exile. Even the torture is clearly sanctioned by Big Boss, as he oversees them when he can.

Nothing goes down with Big Boss' permission. He's clearly the leader.
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Exactly. Also, the mechanics totally reinforce that. Kaz doesn't decide which platforms to expand. Big Boss (The player) does. Kaz puts guys into teams, but Big Boss (the player) has the authority to tell people to switch teams at any point. Big Boss also decides which projects the development team works on.

I know it's not something we're used to when it comes to Metal Gear, but mechanics can and should tell the story as much as cutscenes do.
 
NeoCross said:
Finally finished this damn game after doing several side ops to unlock mission 46...which was a replay of the god damn opening. I never thought I wasn't going to hate another MGS game after Peace Walker and believed Kojima can make this one alot better than that piece of shit since he isn't restricted to making it for a handheld...but oooooooh boy was I wrong. What a disappointing conclusion to a legendary series.
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You feel it too, don't you?

Welcome to the spoiler thread. It's all sugar and rainbows here.

bjoern_siebert_the_mud_fight.jpg
 
Alienous said:
What?

Big Boss has the final say on everything, Kaz just handles the logistics of managing Diamond Dogs.

It's highlighted several times. Kaz tells the DD soldiers to shoot quiet, but ultimately it's Big Boss' call. Same with Huey's exile. Even the torture is clearly sanctioned by Big Boss, as he oversees them when he can.

Nothing goes down with Big Boss' permission. He's clearly the leader.
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i mean except that the entirety of everything happens whether Venom has input or not. Kaz or Ocelot comes to you and is like "hey now you can do this" but Venom rarely makes an actual choice.

Battle Gear starts happening? That wasn't his call. Sahelanthropus being brought to the base? he had no say. Ocelot and Kaz torture folks all the time and rare is the moment that Venom puts a stop to it. I mean even with Huey, he's left with the metallic archaea needle in his leg at the end of one session.

Like i said, they all condemned Huey to death but Venom did it his own way. Kaz doesn't want Quiet on the base but Ocelot sees the value in having her and so too does Venom so she stays. You think Quiet stays if Ocelot, too, would've been against it?

It's the illusion of choice. Venom doesn't actually make many calls, really, and the few he does aren't really things he chose but things he was allowed to choose.
 
Ishida said:
You feel it too, don't you?

Welcome to the spoiler thread. It's all sugar and rainbows here.

bjoern_siebert_the_mud_fight.jpg
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I'm honestly so disappointed that I want to get rid of this game from my collection because I've already finished it and have no desire to even 100% it like every other Metal Gear....but I want to try MGO3 first.
 
NeoCross said:
Finally finished this damn game after doing several side ops to unlock mission 46...which was a replay of the god damn opening. I never thought I wasn't going to hate another MGS game after Peace Walker and believed Kojima can make this one alot better than that piece of shit since he isn't restricted to making it for a handheld...but oooooooh boy was I wrong. What a disappointing conclusion to a legendary series.
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Ishida said:
You feel it too, don't you?

Welcome to the spoiler thread. It's all sugar and rainbows here.

bjoern_siebert_the_mud_fight.jpg
Click to expand...

oWzSfRQ.png
 
Just watched Super Bunnyhop's breakdown of the game and damn is that spot on. After spending close to 100 hours with it, it's an odd feeling to love playing a game so much but to be so disappointed with it.
 
goomba stomper said:
Just watched Super Bunnyhop's breakdown of the game and damn is that spot on. After spending close to 100 hours with it, it's an odd feeling to love playing a game so much but to be so disappointed with it.
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I completely stopped after 45 and a half hours, which is what took me to get to the Truth ending. I haven't played a single minute since then.
 
Alo the "twist" is so fucking stupid I'm surprised some people actually liked it and did not see it coming. I mean come on from the very beginning it was painfully obvious. The Missing Link my ass. This game doesn't even come close to explaining why Big Boss turned bad....BECAUSE YOU WERE PLAYING SOMEONE ELSE and the real BB was somewhere else doing shit we were supposed to see for ourselves.

Yes, I'm fucking mad.
 
goomba stomper said:
Just watched Super Bunnyhop's breakdown of the game and damn is that spot on. After spending close to 100 hours with it, it's an odd feeling to love playing a game so much but to be so disappointed with it.
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It's almost schizophrenic, isn't it? Which means this was planned by Kojima. He aimed to surprise, enthral and disappoint us as some kind of meta commentary on how the hype machine warps our expectations beyond reason. The man's a genius. #plannedbykojima
 
I agree with those who say that something went wrong with the development of the story. Certain things like skull face didn't bother me. His death was supposed to be anticlimactic and he still had an impact post mortem. There was just so little story in chapter 2 and the resolution was just thrown at us with one cut scene and a bunch of post game exposition relegated to tapes. There was no real foreshadowing or buildup to the ending besides what was in the prologue. It was disappointing. But the game itself the actual parts you play was almost universally brilliant. Not perfect mind you but superior to anything I've played this year by a mile with the possible exception of bloodborne and sins of the first scholar. The open world was amazing in the context of the missions. The mission structure couldn't not have been done without it. This is unquestionable. I guess I can see how people found it uninteresting between missions but that mission design is unquestionably married to the open world. I'm baffled that people can't see that. It's almost like they played a different game.
 
Freedom = $1.05 said:
i mean except that the entirety of everything happens whether Venom has input or not. Kaz or Ocelot comes to you and is like "hey now you can do this" but Venom rarely makes an actual choice.

Battle Gear starts happening? That wasn't his call. Sahelanthropus being brought to the base? he had no say. Ocelot and Kaz torture folks all the time and rare is the moment that Venom puts a stop to it. I mean even with Huey, he's left with the metallic archaea needle in his leg at the end of one session.

Like i said, they all condemned Huey to death but Venom did it his own way. Kaz doesn't want Quiet on the base but Ocelot sees the value in having her and so too does Venom so she stays. You think Quiet stays if Ocelot, too, would've been against it?

It's the illusion of choice. Venom doesn't actually make many calls, really, and the few he does aren't really things he chose but things he was allowed to choose.
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That's sort of how leadership works.

He isn't a dictator, he's a leader. Think of it like being the President of the United States; he has people dealing with the minutiae he can't, but he's in a position to make the final call on certain things.

Big Boss is like that. Think of Ocelot as Diamond Dog's Secretary of Defense, and Miller as its Secretary of the Treasury (I don't know if those are good analogies; I'm not that familiar with the United States government). Their judgement is valued, but Big Boss' is final. Big Boss does make calls, he just makes them based on the information provided to him, like most leaders do.
 
NeoCross said:
Alo the "twist" is so fucking stupid I'm surprised some people actually liked it and did not see it coming. I mean come on from the very beginning it was painfully obvious. The Missing Link my ass. This game doesn't even come close to explaining why Big Boss turned bad....BECAUSE YOU WERE PLAYING SOMEONE ELSE and the real BB was somewhere else doing shit we were supposed to see for ourselves.

Yes, I'm fucking mad.
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It's a missed opportunity in that it would have been really cool to see Big Boss lose his mind and, because of the shrapnel in his head, hallucinate all kinds of crazy shit, which Kojima could have broken the fourth wall and really had some fun with incidentally, and just descend into madness and villainy by the end of the game. Instead, we got to play as The Medic, the greatest soldier who ever lived, because Ocelot read him Big Boss' Book of Bedtime Soldier Stories every night during his coma.

Truth be told, that's the one thing that really surprised me, setting up the shrapnel causing hallucinations and doing nothing of any real interest with it. Apart from fishing out bombs from vaginas, of course.
 
Freedom = $1.05 said:
I wonder if Kojima regretted his choice to go with Kiefer at some point during development. It really seems like he was working around the issue instead of just checking his ego and going back to Hayter, who surely would've cost a ton less and been up for long recording sessions

Man, I'd really like to read a post mortem on what the fuck happened with MGSV. There's a great game underneath this rubble
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http://www.gamespot.com/articles/mgs-5-the-phantom-pain-s-snake-won-t-talk-much-koj/1100-6425687/

I think after knowing the ending and reading this, it was probably the plan all along to not have Keifer speak that much during cutscenes.
 
Alienous said:
That's sort of how leadership works.

He isn't a dictator, he's a leader. Think of it like being the President of the United States; he has people dealing with the minutiae he can't, but he's in a position to make the final call on certain things.

Big Boss is like that. Think of Ocelot as Diamond Dog's Secretary of Defense, and Miller as its Secretary of the Treasury (I don't know if those are good analogies; I'm not that familiar with the United States government). Their judgement is valued, but Big Boss' is final. Big Boss does make calls, he just makes them based on the information provided to him, like most leaders do.
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well the argument stemmed from whether Miller knew it was always Venom Snake or if he found out after. The point against him knowing before is that Miller wouldn't let VS make any major decisions if he didn't think VS was BB. My argument is that VS actually doesn't make any significant decisions, that the biggest call he makes was not killing quiet and even that one was backed by Ocelot. So never is there a major choice that isn't either presented to VS by the two or already approved by one of the two.

So he isn't making any major choices, really. So it could be that Kaz knew he was VS all along, which kinda makes sense being that he's the one most vocally against many of VS's moves and he is pissed the fuck off all game.

infinityBCRT said:
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/mgs-5-the-phantom-pain-s-snake-won-t-talk-much-koj/1100-6425687/

I think after knowing the ending and reading this, it was probably the plan all along to not have Keifer speak that much during cutscenes.
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I remember that and i always chalked it up as some preemptive damage control over issues with having access to Keifer.
 
Instead of getting angry about V, let's look back at the series and things that pissed us off about it.

Genuinely, apart from the bullshit boss fights in PEACE WALKER, I cannot think of anything in the series as annoying or frustrating as MGSV's entire narrative.

It's painfully annoying and not in some "meta narrative" where I am experiencing THE PHANTOM PAIN, but because this game just isn't finished.

And the MGS Vocal Soundtrack doesn't have A Phantom Pain on it.
 
leatherhat said:
does the nuke seriously take 72 hours to build? I guess I should prioritize that over base expansions for the plat. Damn fuel bottleneck.
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I'm at the stage now where it's not even just fuel, it's everything. I would go online to do some FOB and expand my FOBs to house more men to allow faster material processing, but the last time I went online I lost so much shit I will never go online again.
 
infinityBCRT said:
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/mgs-5-the-phantom-pain-s-snake-won-t-talk-much-koj/1100-6425687/

I think after knowing the ending and reading this, it was probably the plan all along to not have Keifer speak that much during cutscenes.
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"I've said it many times, but I understand why people feel Snake is cool and admire him," Kojima told IGN. "In realty, though, Snake is and always has been nothing more than an extension of the player. He's your alter ego. Therefore, I made a very conscious effort this time to bring Snake closer to the player's perspective. As much as possible, Snake will act based on the player rather than doing things like making spontaneous comments or flirting with women."

I don't give a shit if he's the author of the series. This is 100% bullshit and goes against what Metal Gear has been for almost 30 years. Snake was never an extension of the player. He was his own character. MGS2's meta-narrative even plays with this, straight telling the player that he is NOT Snake.

But suddenly Kojima hits brake and backtracks on 3 decades of lore. "It was always you! You are Snake!"

BULL
CRAP.
 
Ishida said:
"I've said it many times, but I understand why people feel Snake is cool and admire him," Kojima told IGN. "In realty, though, Snake is and always has been nothing more than an extension of the player. He's your alter ego. Therefore, I made a very conscious effort this time to bring Snake closer to the player's perspective. As much as possible, Snake will act based on the player rather than doing things like making spontaneous comments or flirting with women."

I don't give a shit if he's the author of the series. This is 100% bullshit and goes against what Metal Gear has been for almost 30 years. Snake was never an extension of the player. He was his own character. MGS2's meta-narrative even plays with this, straight telling the player that he is NOT Snake.

But suddenly Kojima hits brake and backtracks on 3 decades of lore. "It was always you! You are Snake!"

BULL
CRAP.
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Yea it's bullshit for sure
 
Ishida said:
"I've said it many times, but I understand why people feel Snake is cool and admire him," Kojima told IGN. "In realty, though, Snake is and always has been nothing more than an extension of the player. He's your alter ego. Therefore, I made a very conscious effort this time to bring Snake closer to the player's perspective. As much as possible, Snake will act based on the player rather than doing things like making spontaneous comments or flirting with women."

I don't give a shit if he's the author of the series. This is 100% bullshit and goes against what Metal Gear has been for almost 30 years. Snake was never an extension of the player. He was his own character. MGS2's meta-narrative even plays with this, straight telling the player that he is NOT Snake.

But suddenly Kojima hits brake and backtracks on 3 decades of lore. "It was always you! You are Snake!"

BULL
CRAP.
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IT'S ME KOJIMA!
 
I don't mind a more silent Snake, it's just that it's another "I want to do X, but only for Y" contradiction that MGSV falls for. You can't say you want Snake mute in cutscenes to be an extension of the player, then have him talk through tapes. It simply doesn't work.
 
bad said:
Where do yoy find how many hours you've put in the game?
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After you complete a mission it gives you mission complete time and total play time in the score breakdown screen.

Ishida said:
I completely stopped after 45 and a half hours, which is what took me to get to the Truth ending. I haven't played a single minute since then.
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Yeah I'm glad I decided to do all side ops available and harder versions of missions before completing chapters 45 and 46. I've gone back to it to finish the side ops and get a few more S ranks but I don't feel IT anymore. My most recent game load up; I loaded it, looked at some menus, then turned it off. I don't have a drive to play anymore.

PedroPanache said:
It's almost schizophrenic, isn't it? Which means this was planned by Kojima. He aimed to surprise, enthral and disappoint us as some kind of meta commentary on how the hype machine warps our expectations beyond reason. The man's a genius. #plannedbykojima
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He truly is the world's senpai.
 
MGS2 Solid Snake and MGS4 Old Snake is the extension of Kojima, not the player. We as players role play as the characters, they are not extensions of us. That's what I believe.
 
MGS2 Snake at the end when he's speaking to Raiden was so obviously Kojima breaking the fourth wall speaking to the player (Raiden). To turn around on that stance now just goes to show how much Kojima changes his mind on things.
 
Freedom = $1.05 said:
So he isn't making any major choices, really. So it could be that Kaz knew he was VS all along, which kinda makes sense being that he's the one most vocally against many of VS's moves and he is pissed the fuck off all game.
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Well the events of mission 43 is kind of a major choice and set of events that were directly controlled by Venom.

He murders a bunch of Diamond Dog soldiers and then goes with the whole "Make them into Diamonds". This set of events evokes or should evoke the biggest emotional response from Kaz and Venom was the only one that really made any choices there even if the situation didn't leave him with any options.
 
EatChildren said:
I don't mind a more silent Snake, it's just that it's another "I want to do X, but only for Y" contradiction that MGSV falls for. You can't say you want Snake mute in cutscenes to be an extension of the player, then have him talk through tapes. It simply doesn't work.
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Exactly.

How can "the player be Snake", when 99% of the players out there wanted Snake to become an absolute monster in this game? If Snake is supposed to be the player, then it fails miserably in delivering what players truly wanted. Venom Snake does not react how I want him to react.

In fact, Venom Snake, the "player's avatar" does and acts pretty much the opposite of what players want from him.

So, Kojima's excuse is nonsense.
 
Ishida said:
Exactly.

How can "the player be Snake", when 99% of the players out there wanted Snake to become an absolute monster in this game? If Snake is supposed to be the player, then it fails miserably in delivering what players truly wanted. Venom Snake does not react how I want him to react.

In fact, Venom Snake, the "player's avatar" does and acts pretty much the opposite of what players want from him.

So, Kojima's excuse is nonsense.
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The way he just stares at characters during certain cutscenes is not natural at all.
 
PedroPanache said:
It's a missed opportunity in that it would have been really cool to see Big Boss lose his mind and, because of the shrapnel in his head, hallucinate all kinds of crazy shit, which Kojima could have broken the fourth wall and really had some fun with incidentally, and just descend into madness and villainy by the end of the game. Instead, we got to play as The Medic, the greatest soldier who ever lived, because Ocelot read him Big Boss' Book of Bedtime Soldier Stories every night during his coma.

Truth be told, that's the one thing that really surprised me, setting up the shrapnel causing hallucinations and doing nothing of any real interest with it. Apart from fishing out bombs from vaginas, of course.
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That is also one of the things that's so upsettig with this game. Hell even Ocelot explains it in the tape that you might get hallucinations....then you get none. Nada. Nothing. In MGS4 your psych meter really affects Snake. Here the big fucking horn stuck in your head does nothing, lel.
 
NeoCross said:
That is also one of the things that's so upsettig with this game. Hell even Ocelot explains it in the tape that you might get hallucinations....then you get none. Nada. Nothing. In MGS4 your psych meter really affects Snake. Here the big fucking horn stuck in your head does nothing, lel.
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This was a huge opportunity they missed. All you got was Paz. Arkham Knight did some amazing things with hallucinations.
 
Sumio Mondo said:
MGS2 Snake at the end when he's speaking to Raiden was so obviously Kojima breaking the fourth wall speaking to the player (Raiden). To turn around on that stance now just goes to show how much Kojima changes his mind on things.
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Yeah but he is doing it through Big Boss. So what he is really saying is that he is the real Big Boss, thanks for playing along though.
 
Unknown One said:
MGS2 Solid Snake and MGS4 Old Snake is the extension of Kojima, not the player. We as players role play as the characters, they are not extensions of us. That's what I believe.
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I think it's Lucas Syndrome in that he lacks any real insight into the ideas and themes he creates. That's not to say those themes and ideas are any lesser because of that, just that he's not skilled enough to fully dissect the authorial intent of his works.
 
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