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[SolVanderlyn]

I liked MGS2 because Snake or his variations are not the only amazing soldiers in the world, even if the other games try to tell you that they are. Raiden was a great character.

Metal Gear 2 also had George Kaslar and Gray Fox. I think the series would have benefitted a lot from having more characters like these three. It's also why the Venom twist is not as contrived as people might think, at least not for the reason that he's some random. V was already a top level soldier before he became Boss, and that's why he was chosen as a body double.

 

[Ishida]

Raiden destroyed like 20 Rays, that was insane indeed. Yes those were mass produced, hence weaker, but they are still Metal Gears. 1 of those Rays gave Rex a run for it's money.

Raiden > Solid Snake > Liquid Snake > Big Boss > Solidus.

Yes I put Liquid Snake above Big Boss. He gave Solid the most trouble, he just wouldn't die.

The RAY that Liquid Ocelot used against REX wasn't one of the mass produced models. It was the "main unit" (The prototype), the same we saw in MGS2, but modified (They took out the tail and modified the knees).

The mass produced models are unmanned, and the face looks different (They only have one eye).

The one from the REX VS RAY fight was the real deal.

 

[Durden77]

Raiden destroyed like 20 Rays, that was insane indeed. Yes those were mass produced, hence weaker, but they are still Metal Gears. 1 of those Rays gave Rex a run for it's money.

Raiden > Solid Snake > Liquid Snake > Big Boss > Solidus.

Yes I put Liquid Snake above Big Boss. He gave Solid the most trouble, he just wouldn't die.

He died big time though. Way quicker than Big Boss. The only reason why he remained around was Ocelot's desicions and NANOMACHINES.

Me I think Solid Snake > Big Boss > Raiden Solidus > Liquid Snake > Venom Snake

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Arsenal Gear took out Manhatten by driving into it.

Solidus, even in failure, probably caused more damage than Liquid.

 

[Unknown One]

The RAY that Liquid Ocelot used against REX wasn't one of the mass produced models. It was the "main unit" (The prototype), the same we saw in MGS2, but modified (They took out the tail and modified the knees).

The mass produced models are unmanned, and the face looks different (They only have one eye).

The one from the REX VS RAY fight was the real deal.

It was the mass produced Ray. Mass Produced Ray has a much shorter Tail. Watch the Tanker Scene again and compare it to MGS4 Rex vs Ray.

Big Boss got torched by an unarmed Solid with a lighter. That's enough for me to put him below Liquid. Who survived a Helicopter crash + explosion, a 40 foot fall from the top of Rex, and a high speed Jeep shootout crash.

 

[The Silver]

He died big time though. Way quicker than Big Boss. The only reason why he remained around was Ocelot's desicions and NANOMACHINES.

Me I think Solid Snake > Big Boss > Raiden Solidus > Liquid Snake > Venom Snake

Foxdie killed Liquid, the dude was a terminator who kept coming back for Snake and was about to blow a hole in his head before he dropped dead.

 

[Berserker976]

Raiden destroyed like 20 Rays, that was insane indeed. Yes those were mass produced, hence weaker, but they are still Metal Gears. 1 of those Rays gave Rex a run for it's money.

Raiden > Solid Snake > Liquid Snake > Big Boss > Solidus.

Yes I put Liquid Snake above Big Boss. He gave Solid the most trouble, he just wouldn't die.

I think people are forgetting the time Solidus took down 3 Rays in like 10 seconds with a freaking P90, killed one of them without even looking at it, and didn't even break a sweat.

 

[Henkka]

So I've been wondering if we didn't really fall from grace in TPP.

Like, Skull Face is pure cartoon villain. He's not really sympathetic even with his tragic youth. He's a monster. But he acts as a distraction from the more subtle actions Venom is taking. Mechanically, when you're fultoning soldiers, you likely only picked the ones with the best states. Anyone else is expendable. You're only letting some live because they have worth to you.

You don't use the child soldiers as soldiers, but you still use them for other jobs around Mother Base. "You're not as bad as the other guys" is a pretty poor excuse. You take contract jobs to kill a bunch of Soviets (who if you listen to, fucking hate being there) to assist a group of people that turn into the Taliban and al Qaeda. Then you turn around and fight for the Eastern Bloc in Africa.

Sure you're trying to prevent Skull Face from unleashed hell on earth, but the means you get to that point are often not related to that goal. Solid Snake never did wetwork to support Philanthropy.

Yeah, Venom isn't a very good person. Not a genocidal maniac, but still.

I know it's a lame excuse, but in a way BB's fall happens during gameplay, not story beats. It's a game about player freedom and agency, and treats the things that happen during play as equally canon as cutscenes.

 

[Unknown One]

I think people are forgetting the time Solidus took down 3 Rays in like 10 seconds with a freaking P90, killed one of them without even looking at it, and didn't even break a sweat.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Solidus and his ultimate P90.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Was Solidus really aging THAT fast or was he surgically altered to look old enough for the presidency? I've heard both things and his appearance was never commented on in any of the games as far as I know.

 

[Berserker976]

MGS4 mass produced ray with shorter tail.
https://youtu.be/V5FKikyujcI?t=2m44s

MGS2 prototype Ray with longer tail.
https://youtu.be/c19pYo4wHXM



Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Solidus and his ultimate P90.

Seriously, screw the Patriot, give me Solidus Snake's P90 as an unlockable weapon.

 

[mgs2master2]

I think people are forgetting the time Solidus took down 3 Rays in like 10 seconds with a freaking P90, killed one of them without even looking at it, and didn't even break a sweat.

Solidus is above the petty rating system. He literally was the closest one coming close to BB's Vision.

that's forgotten to.

 

[akidnamededdy]

I just realized Zero's name is David Oh and Solid Snake's name is also David and I'm wondering if Zero chose to name his ill gotten BB clone after himself because like everyone else in the series he's in love with the guy and expresses it in weird ways.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

 

[The Silver]

Solidus had an exoskeleten and that P90 was clearly gimmicked with cheat codes or something.


Normal human ass Raiden taking down all those Rays is still the biggest feat in the series.

 

[Reebot]

I know it's a lame excuse, but in a way BB's fall happens during gameplay, not story beats. It's a game about player freedom and agency, and treats the things that happen during play as equally canon as cutscenes.

Not at all. That's a pretty big stretch. Borderline distortion.

In fact, there has literally never been more non-lethal options and incentives for using those options.

So, at best, the player kills a bunch of dudes and that's Venom's fall. Not only is that still not a tragic fall, since his actions in story beats are fully heroic, but it simply makes him no worse than every other character that player has ever controlled.

 

[hal9001]

Nvm

 

[Durden77]

Foxdie killed Liquid, the dude was a terminator who kept coming back for Snake and was about to blow a hole in his head before he dropped dead.

Yeah but Big Boss survived the raid of Mother Base, being burned alive by Solid Snake, and not to mention all the other shit in his wacky adventures. Liquid was just a motherfucker for a bit.

 

[Reebot]

Yeah but Big Boss survived the raid of Mother Base, being burned alive by Solid Snake, and not to mention all the other shit in his wacky adventures. Liquid was just a motherfucker for a bit.

Also Liquid was apparently too stupid to realize Mantis could just control Metal Gear.

MGS 1 has become the story of Mantis just kind of fucking around for a bit.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Yeah but Big Boss survived the raid of Mother Base, being burned alive by Solid Snake, and not to mention all the other shit in his wacky adventures. Liquid was just a motherfucker for a bit.

Just gonna point out that Liquid was also in a helicopter crash and he didn't lay around for nine years before getting back in action.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Liquid was a monster. Survived a Hind D explosion, a Rex explosion, a fistfight where he fell a very long distance to the ground, and a car explosion. Oh, and he took out two fighter jets with a Hind D. The way he died says nothing about his strength at all, because a heart attack can kill anybody.

I just realized Zero's name is David Oh and Solid Snake's name is also David and I'm wondering if Zero chose to name his ill gotten BB clone after himself because like everyone else in the series he's in love with the guy and expresses it in weird ways.

That's an interesting way to think about it. I also wonder if Zero acted as a foster parent to Eli until he went to Africa for whatever reason.

Edit: Oh wait, Zero was in the states when Eli was born. Durrrr

 

[Jangowuzhere]

Just gonna point out that Liquid was also in a helicopter crash and he didn't lay around for nine years before getting back in action.

Well, it's a little bit harder when you crash over the ocean with no parachute.

 

[Unknown One]

Ok I looked up further on the MGS4 Ray. Looks like it has the cockpit of the Prototype ray since it has two eyes, but has the rounded legs of the mass produced. The Prototype has sharp knees.

It's a mixture of the two Rays.

 

[Reebot]

Liquid was a monster. Survived a Hind D explosion, a Rex explosion, a fistfight where he fell a very long distance to the ground, and a car explosion. Oh, and he took out two fighter jets with a Hind D. The way he died says nothing about his strength at all, because a heart attack can kill anybody.

Well he is canonically the physically superior clone.

The Prototype has sharp knees.

0/10 would not pilot

 

[Unknown One]

Liquid Snake survived all that in less than a day, sadly he died due to a virus that nobody could survive from.

 

[Durden77]

Also Liquid was apparently too stupid to realize Mantis could just control Metal Gear.

MGS 1 has become the story of Mantis just kind of fucking around for a bit.

After seeing Mantis is this game yeah. Almost makes me wonder it it really is Mantis....but I probably shouldn't do that.

Just gonna point out that Liquid was also in a helicopter crash and he didn't lay around for nine years before getting back in action.

Hahah this is true. But there's no telling how quick Big Boss actually got up. In the tapes Ocelot asks him how he got up on his feet so quickly.

 

[Unknown One]

Ray looks so damn cool. It's no wonder there isn't another Metal Gear after it (Arsenal doesn't count for me). It's hard to top that design.

 

[Jintor]

So I've been wondering if we didn't really fall from grace in TPP.

Like, Skull Face is pure cartoon villain. He's not really sympathetic even with his tragic youth. He's a monster. But he acts as a distraction from the more subtle actions Venom is taking. Mechanically, when you're fultoning soldiers, you likely only picked the ones with the best states. Anyone else is expendable. You're only letting some live because they have worth to you.

You don't use the child soldiers as soldiers, but you still use them for other jobs around Mother Base. "You're not as bad as the other guys" is a pretty poor excuse. You take contract jobs to kill a bunch of Soviets (who if you listen to, fucking hate being there) to assist a group of people that turn into the Taliban and al Qaeda. Then you turn around and fight for the Eastern Bloc in Africa.

Sure you're trying to prevent Skull Face from unleashed hell on earth, but the means you get to that point are often not related to that goal. Solid Snake never did wetwork to support Philanthropy.

if it's only fridge logic true then the game has failed to show what the trailers promised. When you make a revenge journey but at what cost, it shouldn't be up to the viewer to conclude later based on "hey wait a minute..." that there was a cost paid. As it is the game mostly glosses over all of that or relegates it to the background.

I'm not saying a viewer needs to be beaten over the head with it, and it's fine if it's called out later despite not being drawn attention to originally (say if Huey were to rant about it instead of whether or not a fucking dog is a wolf or whatever), but it's really not addressed at all.

 

[Reebot]

if it's only fridge logic true then the game has failed to show what the trailers promised. When you make a revenge journey but at what cost, it shouldn't be up to the viewer to conclude later based on "hey wait a minute..." that there was a cost paid. As it is the game mostly glosses over all of that or relegates it to the background.

Great point.

And really, why didn't this game have a revenge plot? The major developments are actually about making amends.

 

[Arnie7]

The theme of the next generation cleaning up the sins of their forefathers and mothers really comes full circle.

Solid Snake and Otacan clean up Big Boss's an Huey's mess of a legacy.

Raiden cleaned up his adoptive father Solidus mess.

And finally the perhaps the true hero of the game, Ocelot, (The Boss son) is the one to truly finish her will and give hope for the future starting culminating in MGS4.

 

[Opto]

I just realized Zero's name is David Oh and Solid Snake's name is also David and I'm wondering if Zero chose to name his ill gotten BB clone after himself because like everyone else in the series he's in love with the guy and expresses it in weird ways.

Weird he picks the supposed "worst" clone to name after himself.

 

[Reebot]

Weird he picks the supposed "worst" clone to name after himself.

Zero knew Solid would be the best because he has the coolest codename.

 

[eso76]

Ocelot hypnotised himself to think that Venom was the real Big Boss so he carried out the test to confirm that this random white kid with a British accent they found in Africa was in fact a terrible infant and not just any of the other hundreds of random white, blond, British kids running around Africa. It coming up negative should have been a surprise to Ocelot and he theorises that maybe Eli did something to the sample because he's a crafty little shit (but Eli does call Venom Father implying he knows he's a clone of Big Boss).

The entire body double thing falls apart if you give it any amount of thought. Big Boss actually woke up before Venom and had plenty of time to leave the hospital safely while people still thought he was dead or in a coma. Venom dying in the Hospital while looking like Big Boss wouldn't really work because XOF would likely get DNA confirmation BUT you don't need a double if people think you are dead or know you are in a coma but don't know where (so they are looking for something they will never find). Big Boss made Venom to get the heat off himself when there wasn't really any heat on him.

Nothing triggers Venom knowing. Well, the tape he gets during operation intrude N313 triggers it (because Big Boss explains). Nothing triggers the mission in the story, it's just a stupid and clumsy way of revealing the twist.

I was under the impression Ocelot always knew, I must have missed the part where it is said he was hypnotised. So he genuinely thought V was BB.
And when does he snap out of it (for that final conversation with Miller) ?

So V is supposed to look like BB and act like BB so John can get himself busy building his nation while the world tries to kill V.
Can't say that really makes a lot of sense when BB doesn't get his face changed (which Ocelot suggests, meaning Kojima aknowledges as much...)


Yeah I meant when does V receive that tape, when does that scene take place ? Him looking in the mirror, battle sounds outside.. It doesn't seem tied to anything else in the game ?

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Weird he picks the supposed "worst" clone to name after himself.

He sent the good one to his home country, so there is that.

 

[Reebot]

I was under the impression Ocelot always knew, I must have missed the part where it is said he was hypnotised. So he genuinely thought V was BB.
And when does he snap out of it (for that final conversation with Miller) ?

In the truth tapes, he says he will hypnotize himself. This is also the moment i had to make sure I wasn't having some kind of auditory hallucination.

Its a bit of a plot hole as to when he "snaps out" of it. He talks to Miller about it, and Miller says "nine years ago," putting this conversation sometime during or very shortly after the game. But, he says his snapping out will be triggered by seeing the real Big Boss, who's supposedly gone dark.

So yeah, an oversight or plot hole.

 

[Grinchy]

It's also why the Venom twist is not as contrived as people might think, at least not for the reason that he's some random. V was already a top level soldier before he became Boss, and that's why he was chosen as a body double.

Having the exact same voice doesn't hurt, either.

 

[Reebot]

It's also why the Venom twist is not as contrived as people might think, at least not for the reason that he's some random. V was already a top level soldier before he became Boss, and that's why he was chosen as a body double.

But the "he's our best" is entirely contrived to begin with given that we've never seen nor heard of this guy before.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Weird he picks the supposed "worst" clone to name after himself.

Well hell, apparently Strangelove buried some super secret "Protect Hal" routine in the code of the AI that would eventually lead to/become part of the Patriots AI network. Following the Kojima School of Plotting we can only conclude that Zero gave David some super secret Davids Are Awesome injections or hypnosis or parasites.

Zero knew Solid would be the best because he has the coolest codename.

Also this.

 

[Opto]

if it's only fridge logic true then the game has failed to show what the trailers promised. When you make a revenge journey but at what cost, it shouldn't be up to the viewer to conclude later based on "hey wait a minute..." that there was a cost paid. As it is the game mostly glosses over all of that or relegates it to the background.

I'm not saying a viewer needs to be beaten over the head with it, and it's fine if it's called out later despite not being drawn attention to originally (say if Huey were to rant about it instead of whether or not a fucking dog is a wolf or whatever), but it's really not addressed at all.

I dunno. Mechanics are the means of expression that are unique to games. It's true we didn't get a crafted story like other games, and maybe I'm reaching with my theory. But we may need a few years of deciphering everything about this game before we know its true intentions.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Having the exact same voice doesn't hurt, either.

But the "he's our best" is entirely contrived to begin with given that we've never seen nor heard of this guy before.

Ok, you've got me there. What I was really referring to was the possibility that other soldiers at Boss's level existed, perhaps even in MSF. That part isn't contrived. V's sudden introduction to the story and his unexplained voice and his exact height and other things are, but not the premise of Boss having an underling he thinks can equal his own skill.

 

[The Silver]

Yeah but Big Boss survived the raid of Mother Base, being burned alive by Solid Snake, and not to mention all the other shit in his wacky adventures. Liquid was just a motherfucker for a bit.

hey if Liquid by all rights had Solid beat if not for Foxdie, then wouldn't he be above BB since you have Solid above BB?


Anyway I don't think anything is as simple as A > B. In a completely 100% fair fight, put both in the octagon, yeah Solid will likely more often than not beat Liquid. Despite that, Liquid was going to be the one who walked away if not for some super timely Foxdie. I think all the Snakes are roughly equal, Solidus is a cheater so I don't know about him.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Big Boss got torched by an unarmed Solid with a lighter. That's enough for me to put him below Liquid. Who survived a Helicopter crash + explosion, a 40 foot fall from the top of Rex, and a high speed Jeep shootout crash.

Eh, to be fair, Big Boss was like 60 when that happened.

 

[killertofu]

But the "he's our best" is entirely contrived to begin with given that we've never seen nor heard of this guy before.

I think that's what got to me the most.

Big Boss is supposed to be LEGENDARY. And some no name medic scrub can impersonate him?

bull
shit.

 

[Unknown One]

Eh, to be fair, Big Boss was like 60 when that happened.

With an Assault Rifle chasing down an unarmed man.

 

[Berserker976]

Well hell, apparently Strangelove buried some super secret "Protect Hal" routine in the code of the AI that would eventually lead to/become part of the Patriots AI network. Following the Kojima School of Plotting we can only conclude that Zero gave David some super secret Davids Are Awesome injections or hypnosis or parasites.



Also this.

Oh yeah, was Stranglelove's secret buried code thing ever followed up on? I honestly had no idea what that was implying.

 

[Regulus Tera]

With an Assault Rifle chasing down an unarmed man.

Reflexes are the first thing to wear down when growing old. And he didn't have an exoskeleton like Solidus.

 

[Jintor]

I think there's two prongs to my argument here. Obviously mechanics are a unique method of expression to videogames, but just because they're used doesn't mean that there is necessarily any authorial expression tied to either their use or to the narrative context around their use. Fultoning for instance is, narratively speaking, basically kidnapping; but the game never really mentions or talks about it in that way at all. So while you might feel like a monster or whatever for only kidnapping (saving?) high level soldiers and eliminating the others, the fact that the game never really expresses an opinion either way on what you're doing means, to me, there's really no authorial intent tied to the use of fultoning as a mechanic.

The other thing, I think - this is less about the intent or lack thereof, and more about its effectiveness - is that I don't really think much of a game crapping on you for playing it is much of an expression via its mechanics. I also think anything involving mechanics inherently becomes more of a criticism/examination of the player rather than the character. It's like playing a game where you only have the option to press X to do horrible thing, and then characters giving you crap for pressing X. Like, when there's only the choice to keep playing the game, or not play the game, I don't see that as very insightful or valuable.

 

[Grinchy]

Ok, you've got me there. What I was really referring to was the possibility that other soldiers at Boss's level existed, perhaps even in MSF. That part isn't contrived. V's sudden introduction to the story and his unexplained voice and his exact height and other things are, but not the premise of Boss having an underling he thinks can equal his own skill.

TBH I'm always ready to buy into the story in these games. I don't even have a problem with the twist.

I think the trailers had me convinced a long time ago that you were big boss and you were just seeing Ishmael in your mind. Like a Fight Club kinda deal where you're performing those actions despite thinking that you're cowering on the floor. So the ending was at least surprising to me.

I'm ready to accept that a really awesome soldier happened to have a "very similar" voice.

 

[akidnamededdy]

Oh yeah, was Stranglelove's secret buried code thing ever followed up on? I honestly had no idea what that was implying.

Like a lot of stuff in this game, it sure wasn't. I took it to mean that the system would ensure he like...ended up in a good college or something dumb like that. I mean, the full blown Patriot AI network wasn't really operational until MGS2, was if? Can't imagine it could've done much else.

Who knows...

 

[Gr1mLock]

Ok, you've got me there. What I was really referring to was the possibility that other soldiers at Boss's level existed, perhaps even in MSF. That part isn't contrived. V's sudden introduction to the story and his unexplained voice and his exact height and other things are, but not the premise of Boss having an underling he thinks can equal his own skill.

Well there was that one thing Ocelot said early in the game about how most PMC's and Mercs dont really know what Big Boss looks like. It's a flimsy excuse but its there.