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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

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Wagram said:
I was checking out Amazon JP randomly and noticed they were eating MGSV alive. I wonder if the reception over there is much different than the "average" here.
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Are there any fans in denial that say "the game was supposed to be unfinished and I love how the story devolves into mediocrity and pointlessness as it progreses. This is Kojima's way of thanking us the fans, we're all the duped medic!" on there too?
 
Opto said:
Phone call at the end of game should have been:

"Yes. Yes, sir. Sahelanthropus has been completely destroyed. As well as any knowledge of the archaea. Yes. Yes, it turns out the vocal cord parasites aren't reliable at all. No, sir, he still doesn't really know the truth. Yes I will continue to monitor everything. The second layer of hypnosis was reached not too long ago. This will make him easier to control for the time being. For now, Big Boss is nothing but a phantom of his former self. Yes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Anderson."
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God yes.

Also, I read that in Zimmerman's voice instead of Baker's.
 
Matt said:
You're being way too generous. The fact is Kojima had a lot of money and a lot of time to make a game...and he couldn't finish it.
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There's nothing generous about it.
Konami and Kojima's drama was all over news sites.
Why do you think Silent Hills got cackled and Kojima Productions got the axe.
Why do you think no one of talent is no longer making castlevania, Gradius, Silent Hill, Goemon etc....

Konami's mobile pachinko future is in full effect.
Legacy be damned

Freedom = $1.05 said:
it may not be on the box but boy is it all over the actual game. He overcompensated like a motherfucker
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LOL, boy did he ever.
 
Drencrom said:
Are there any fans in denial that say "the game was supposed to be unfinished and I love how the story devolves into mediocrity and pointlessness as it progreses. This is Kojima's way of thanking us the fans, we're all the duped medic!" on there too?
Click to expand...

Hahaha I love this. Can't believe people are defending anything beyond the basic gameplay systems.
 
FlashbladeGAF said:
There's nothing generous about it.
Konami and Kojima's drama was all over news sites.
Why do you think Silent Hills got cackled and Kojima Productions got the axe.
Why do you think no one of talent is no longer making castlevania, Gradius, Silent Hill, Goemon etc....

Konami's mobile pachinko future is in full effect.
Legacy be damned
Click to expand...
Who knows, maybe if Kojima could deliver a game on time and on budget none of that would have happened.

Or maybe it would have. But the idea that the unfinished state of MGSV can't be laid at Kojima's feet is ridiculous.
 
just saw this on twitter no idea if legit but just showing you all


CPwjVoRWcAAlEM9.jpg
 
Alienous said:
Cut =/= not able to finish.

And if you can only finish half a game in 5 years someone needs to step in.

Regardless, The Phantom Pain doesn't have half of it missing. Chapter 1 is a complete experience, on its own more than enough to be a game. Chapter 2 is a shoddy, hacked together anti-climatic mess that ends the game on a sour note, and that's on Kojima.
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I honestly think chapter 1 is filled with filler missions, just like GZ had those extra ops.
I'd like a shorter game but with a good chunk of story missions (and with story missions I intend missions actually bringing usefull info to the player with cutscenes, like Hellbound was, in example, or Skullface etc) instead of a 100 hours product in which you visit the same outpost 100 times in order to extract a prisoner, find a plan, fultoning a special soldiers.
Even excluding side-ops, a lot of main ops are here just to fill the game. To me, it was clear there should be other location in the game, not only two. But they couldn't achieve it and, in order to create new content, they created those missions because honestly they are very easy to do, you just need to change some variables and that's it (this, of course, excluding intro mission dialogues etc, you actually need to recorder those, but by a gameplay point of view, those missions are very easy to create).

This excluding all side-ops, that also recycled dialogues and they only change the placement of some items (like spawn X tanks in 32.5Y and 89.1x).

Actually if they used a script, they can randomly generate side-ops easily, making an infinite amount of them.

If extra ops were fun and good in GZ, because really we bought a demo, here, but extra ops provided additional hours of gameplay and they were different enough to be worthy to play, in TPP way too many main ops are just "Extract this dude, blow up that thing."

I had (still having) a lot of fun with the game, even if it's literally filled with issue and I honestly don't understand the praise from the press (and this by being a hardcore MGS fan, this is my favourite franchise), but it's clear the game suffered a lot of issue and the final product feels incomplete and its length artificially increased.
 
Do the Metal Gear novels usually get translated? Pretty sure there were suppose to be new ones that came or are going to come out. Maybe they dumped things that make sense in there. Or maybe I'm just desperate.
 
akidnamededdy said:
I mean...we all have the game already and know how many chapters there are so...probably not legit? What is this even supposed to be?
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it's supposed to prove that kojima had a whole lot more mgsv in him before the funding got cut.

It still doesn't prove that he would've made quiet less pervy and that the ending twist would've been more satisfying though
 
ShogunDarius said:
just saw this on twitter no idea if legit but just showing you all


CPwjVoRWcAAlEM9.jpg
Click to expand...

If it is legit I can't imagine that those chapters ever existed as much more than titles or vague ideas. I'd be extremely surprised if they were actually fully planned in terms of narrative and level design.

So in the end I guess it doens't really matter if it was legit or not. Obviously there was a lot more planned for this game than what actually materialized, that much is clear. The details are all hypothetical.
 
akidnamededdy said:
I mean...we all have the game already and know how many chapters there are so...probably not legit? What is this even supposed to be?
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It's supposed to be the fabled cut content of course.

Look, it's no secret that content was cut. You don't structure a narrative like

- Prologue
- Chapter 1
- credits
- Chapter 2
- Credits

There is at least a chapter 3 missing because that's how a basic narrative is structured, as well as an epilogue. You can't just slap the game's finale somewhere in the middle of chapter 2, run credits and call it quits. And add insult to injury by adding the cutscenes to some of the cut content on a collectors edition blu-ray.
 
Drencrom said:
Are there any fans in denial that say "the game was supposed to be unfinished and I love how the story devolves into mediocrity and pointlessness as it progreses. This is Kojima's way of thanking us the fans, we're all the duped medic!" on there too?
Click to expand...

Seeing how MGS2 has a fanbase with a similar train of thought, it wouldn't really surprise me. That said, more power to them if they enjoyed the games/twist. I don't even want to play MGSV after finishing the main stuff. Maybe MGO3 will be good (but I'm on PC anyway).
 
Matt said:
Who knows, maybe if Kojima could deliver a game on time and on budget none of that would have happened.
Click to expand...

The only difference with the budget this time was that Kojima tried to recoup the cost by selling the prologue (Ground Zeroes) and he was looking to invest for the future of the console games within Konami with the Fox Engine.

The Fox Engine that would save time and money to produce next gen games like Silent Hills, The next Castlevania, and PES.

The fall out with the new CEO wanting to go Mobile only with the gaming side of Konami was Konami basically flushing all the money invested down the drain. Kojima's budget may have ton over board but at least he was thinking toward the future.
Makes more sense to use what came out of all that spending to make more money than to just throw it all away.
 
bad said:
I'm going to play a game with myself and figure out which existing missions belonged to these Non existing Chapters.

Explains why the game is such a small file to download
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a game's size doesn't necessarily correlate with its length. I've played longer games that are not even close to 100mbs big for example. I've also played games larger than MGSV that are much much MUCH shorter than MGSV
 
FlashbladeGAF said:
The only difference with the budget this time was that Kojima tried to recoup the cost by selling the prologue (Ground Zeroes) and he was looking to invest for the future of the console games within Konami with the Fox Engine.

The Fox Engine that would save time and money to produce next gen games like Silent Hills, The next Castlevania, and PES.

The fall out with the new CEO wanting to go Mobile only was Konami basically flushing all the money invested down the drain. Kojima's budget may have ton over board but at least he was thinking toward the future.
Makes more sense to use what came out of all that spending to make more money than to just throw it all away.
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Or...use another engine, and finish your damn game?
 
Salaadin said:
Wow. It's so simple.


PS. It's never that simple.
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No, of course not. The point is that making the Fox Engine is another decision that Kojima made, and his decisions all added up to an unfinished product. If the game had been planned out and managed well, it probably would have been finished after 5 years and 80+ million dollars.
 
Opto said:
Phone call at the end of game should have been:

"Yes. Yes, sir. Sahelanthropus has been completely destroyed. As well as any knowledge of the archaea. Yes. Yes, it turns out the vocal cord parasites aren't reliable at all. No, sir, he still doesn't really know the truth. Yes I will continue to monitor everything. The second layer of hypnosis was reached not too long ago. This will make him easier to control for the time being. For now, Big Boss is nothing but a phantom of his former self. Yes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Anderson."
Click to expand...

So my ideal post-credits conversation would have taken place 20 years later in Alaska, with Miller walking into his cabin and Liquid confronting him. Liquid would ask if he knew about Venom, and if he did, why he let Big Boss be killed. Miller would explain that he has spent his life being controlled by someone's orders and was free. Liquid says he will never be free as long as he remains inferior to David and Big Boss. Miller mocks him for not being able to do what Solid Snake did, and for being the recessive twin. Liquid then snaps and kills him, then radios Ocelot to say it's done.
 
Matt said:
Or...use another engine, and finish your damn game?
Click to expand...

When you got a steady job (like Vice President of Konami Digital Entertainment) and your job is to get out the next Koji Pro game while thinking about the future of console gaming development, the last thing you think will happen is that you will get laid off.

Matt said:
No, of course not. The point is that making the Fox Engine is another decision that Kojima made, and his decisions all added up to an unfinished product. If the game had been planned out and managed well, it probably would have been finished after 5 years and 80+ million dollars.
Click to expand...
The Fox engine was used for the new PES so his decision helped them save time and money like it was going to be for Silent Hills, Zone of Enders, Castlevania etc..

The money was an investment that would have paid off if there wasn't a changing of the guard.
 
Matt said:
No, of course not. The point is that making the Fox Engine is another decision that Kojima made, and his decisions all added up to an unfinished product. If the game had been planned out and managed well, it probably would have been finished after 5 years and 80+ million dollars.
Click to expand...
The Fox engine was the best thing to come out in all of this. It's also one of the reasons PES is being reviewed so favorably. It's also why PT was so scary. The money spent on the engine is understandable, the time wasted in production isn't.
 
I could reasonably believe they had another chapter in them, and I could definitely believe they would have finished chapter 2 given another year.

I do not at all think they had five chapters at their development pace. Maybe an outline for that many existed somewhere but was quickly dismissed before actual work on the game began.
 
bad said:
The Fox engine was the best thing to come out in all of this. It's also one of the reasons PES is being reviewed so favorably. It's also why PT was so scary. The money spent on the engine is understandable, the time wasted in production isn't.
Click to expand...

The Fox Engine and game development go hand in hand. But production doesn't hits it stride until the engine is done.
Plus you have to imagine the complexity in making an open world that can be effected differently depending on what you do to take plenty of planning to perfect.
 
bad said:
The Fox engine was the best thing to come out in all of this. It's also one of the reasons PES is being reviewed so favorably. It's also why PT was so scary. The money spent on the engine is understandable, the time wasted in production isn't.
Click to expand...

The engine seems great, that again is not the point. So make the engine...and then properly scope the rest of development so the game can be finished when it needs to be, for what it needs to be.

Kojima failed as a project manager, period.
 
I don't believe that Chapter list is real. Obviously there was at least a Chapter 3, but the amount of content all those chapters would require seems unfeasible to me.
 
Matt said:
The engine seems great, that again is not the point. So make the engine...and then properly scope the rest of development so the game can be finished when it needs to be, for what it needs to be.

Kojima failed as a product manager, period.
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He did. What part of someone stepping in to throw a monkey wrench into the game don't you understand?

Kojima released Ground Zeroes because he said it would be awhile before MGSV would release because it was such a large game. He wasn't the one that said the release day would be Sept 1

He had a plan. But the new direction of Konami half way thru development put an end to it.

Sure Kojima took his sweet ass time, and the story suffered for it, but the core gameplay was finished. All was left was creating scenarios which I'd like to believe wouldn't have taken to long outside of some complex level design work
 
FlashbladeGAF said:
Sure Kojima took his sweet ass time, and the story suffered for it, but the core gameplay was finished. All was left was creating scenarios which Id like to believe wouldn't have taken to long outside of some complex level design work
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This is what takes up most of the time in open world games.

This is why a lot of open world games ship with terrible mission design, because they spent forever making the world and then came up against the date. It's why Assassin's Creed suffers from this specific thing so often.

I have no idea where you're getting the idea that creating scenarios doesn't take long.
 
FlashbladeGAF said:
He did. What part of someone stepping in to throw a monkey wrench into the game don't you understand?

Kojima released Ground Zeroes because he said it would be awhile before MGSV would release because it was such a large game. He wasn't the one that said the release day would be Sept 1
Click to expand...

MGSV blew past internal deadlines for years. Someone finally saying "you can't skip this deadline" doesn't mean it's their fault the game wasn't ready.
 
FlashbladeGAF said:
He did. What part of someone stepping in to throw a monkey wrench into the game don't you understand?

Kojima released Ground Zeroes because he said it would be awhile before MGSV would release because it was such a large game. He wasn't the one that said the release day would be Sept 1

He had a plan. But the new direction of Konami half way thru development put an end to it.

Sure Kojima took his sweet ass time, and the story suffered for it, but the core gameplay was finished. All was left was creating scenarios which I'd like to believe wouldn't have taken to long outside of some complex level design work
Click to expand...

Matt is a dev. I think he knows what he's talking about bro.
 
You can have good intentions and still be a bad project manager.

Kojima very likely wanted to create the best game he could make, but some of his decisions very clearly lead to the way MGS5 shipped.
 
Matt said:
The engine seems great, that again is not the point. So make the engine...and then properly scope the rest of development so the game can be finished when it needs to be, for what it needs to be.

Kojima failed as a project manager, period.
Click to expand...
No, you're right. He mismanaged time and resources. It's always been overlooked because how good he was as a designer for those first three solid games but the well has dried up.
 
Ishida said:
Matt is a dev. I think he knows what he's talking about bro.
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Does he have any insight at all into anything that went on behind the scenes or are his opinions based on the same information that we all have?



Matt isn't incorrect, imo, but if he doesn't have more information than us then his opinion on it is on the same level as us.
 
Kojima has never been a good project manager. He's a good director, though. He obviously thought he'd have a lot more time and resources with this game, and he assumed wrong.
 
If I were a billionaire, I would have thrown them $50M or so to allow more development time. Or maybe even a sequel or DLC that brings us all the way up to Shadow Moses.
 
Timeaisis said:
Kojima has never been a good project manager. He's a good director, though. He obviously thought he'd have a lot more time and resources with this game, and he assumed wrong.
Click to expand...

There is probably a discussion to be had about promoting talented developers to manager positions simply because of their talent at developing games.

Leading a team is an entirely different sport and a lot of the world's most talented developers need someone to say "No, you can't have this, think of how to do it another way."
 
Wesker28 said:
I don't know what you mean exactly, but it seems broken to me. Some people stole a lot of resources from me, and I can't even retaliate.
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You can't retaliate against a player that never set off an alert. Give yourself several platforms and max everything in the basic and advanced option lists. Those numbers are a pretty good deterrent from someone wanting to infiltrate you.
 
I do believe the notion that kojima did fail in time resources and in turn being the project lead. He obviously needs someone to help reign him in a bit. I can see very well how konami could have said "enough" after all the money and resources.
 
Ishida said:
Matt is a dev. I think he knows what he's talking about bro.
Click to expand...

A better response to this V

Salaadin said:
Does he have any insight at all into anything that went on behind the scenes or are his opinions based on the same information that we all have?



Matt isn't incorrect, imo, but if he doesn't have more information than us then his opinion on it is on the same level as us.
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I'm not arguing with you that there are deadlines and budgetary constraints that must be kept... I understand that Kojima answers to Konami, but he also is was the President of Kojima Productions and Vice President of Konami Digital Entertainment. He's got more say than your typical head developer.

The way you make it sound is Kojima just decided to spend money on shit just for MGSV without a care in the world, when in reality he was looking toward the future.
His Fox Engine was going to be used across the board to have Konami's titles compete graphically. Being Vice President, even though he was focused on MGS, he was using the fox engine investment to help future titles.

What he didn't realize was the Japan has a bad track record when it comes to building their own engines and using them effectively. Unlike Square, his engine actually worked. But now it's useless unless the fox engine can run on mobile.

And we are also only getting one side to the story. Who's to say that some part of that 80 million wasn't going to Silent Hills.

Either way the situation sucks for everyone that has followed the series all this time. We got a fun unfinished game and that we are all feeling passionately about the fuck up that happened between Konami and Kojima.
 
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