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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

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Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I said this in my initial post in this thread as well: Kojima applied The Truman Show on the MGS universe. It's bad.

Man.. going with this crazy ass filler 'story' instead of just giving us the rise of Outer Heaven and that MG1 connection at the end is such a tragedy.

It really gets to me, Kojima had one thing to do, one very simple thing, to please all the fans, and it was to be faithful to what he himself presented in the trailers and give us a revenge-filled game showcasing the fall of Big Boss and the rise of Outer Heaven... And yet he managed to do a 180 and do the exact opposite, leaving us with a game that doesn't fill in the gaps and is basically needless filler in the timeline once again.

I guess it doesn't matter anyomre, since he's been fired, but Kojima really needs to listen to fan feedback and actually deliver people the game they want.

After MGS1, everyone wanted to see more of Snake, to see how Foxdie was going to affect him, we all wanted a Snake vs Solidus fight. Kojima sold us on the project by lying to us, showing us the tanker and Big Shell with Solid Snake as a playable character, only to piss us off and introduce raiden, the patriots, needless plot convulsions about AI and simulations and a plot that didn't really make any sense.

For MGS3, most people wanted the game they didn't get with MGS2, a proper game about Solid Snake, but Kojima went back to the past, making us play as Big Boss, with the exact same voice and personality as Snake. It was an odd choice, one that could have been terrible, but for once, it actually worked. Kojima nailed it.

Then, for MGS4, Kojima decided what we wanted out of the final Solid Snake game was to see him as an old geezer. He promised huge, dynamic conflict zones where you could slide with various factions, or "let the world be". I'm not saying it was a pure betrayal, but explaining everything with nanomachines, retconning supernatural events and stuff like vamp / ocelot's arm, and Bringing Back Big boss for an epilogue.. Still, it was probably the MGS game where Kojima actually delievered what he promised and giving fans closure, well asides from clearly depicting Snake as a guy that was going to kill himself and setting him up for the deed for 4 chapters.

Finally, comes MGSV, where Kojima promises us Big Boss becoming a "Demon", a plot about "Revenge", the "Rise of Outer Heaven". The marketing campaign is built on the idea of Big Boss training child soldiers, killing people in cages, covered in blood in burned villages and shooting his own men in his own base. But instead, we get a dumb body double plot where the guy builds a meaningless base that is obsolete anyway since the "real" bases are Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land anyway. It accomplishes nothing in terms of overalll story arc asides from awnsering a question noone asked. How did Big Boss survive MG1 (awnser : He didn't)... Wow, did we really need a whole game to setup a body double just for THAT.... Coudn't he just have been left for dead by Snake due to the detonation sequence being in place and crawl out into a vent leading to an escape route or whatever. It's a MSX game for christ's sake, it's not like we saw a clear boss fight ... He just explodes like all other bosses do and then you climb a ladder out of Outer Heaven.

I'm not talking about Portable Ops and Peace Walker because I consider them as filler episodes, in the sense where they do a small story arc for Big Boss without really having huge repercussions in the lore. Basically, Kojima has perfected by now how to sell us games that seem like they will advance the plot forward, yet end up being side stories when you actually finish them, not really tackling what's actually needed to move the plot fowrward.

I mean, Kojima had like 5 things to do when he decided to make games about Big Boss:

1 - Show us the rise of Outer Heaven... Which he didn't properly do. Sure, you can argue that Diamond Dog's Base perhaps gets retconned into Outer Heaven, or that he'll use the troops and gear to build a land-based base eventually, but really ,how hard would it have been take the existing mother base and paste it into the african tileset instead of being an oilrig base.

2 - Show us the creation of Foxhound and how BIg Boss lead it. Portable Ops hinted at this, since you could recruit freaks of nature like Python, Gene, Null, Ocelot, Eva in your unit... Sad that in the end, it's the closest we'lll ever get to being able to play as Big Boss leading highly skilled, almost supernatural soldiers into battle.

3 - Show us why Big Boss become evil, and why he "played both sides" in regards to the Foxhound vs Outer Heaven situation. We get no awnser about this. Having a body double creating Outer Heaven and taking the fall does not explain the fact Big Boss was the man responsible for that fall. Why is he toppling what his "phantom" built , again ? Because he wants to build Zanzibar Land ? Whatever, at this point I don't care anymore ?

4 - Show us, at least in some form the Solid Vs Big Boss fight. Playable , cutscene, we didn't care. But it was the key "missing link" in the franchise. The MGSV Launch trailer hinted at this, showcasing a burned Big Boss with no hair and the exposed skeleton teeths, and for the whole duration of the game, I was dying to play the last secret mission as Solid Snake, defeating Big Boss and finishing the series properly... Yet we didn't get that. Instead, we redo mission 1 with the same tutorial prompt , but with a dumb plot twist that doesn't make sense since Ishmael has both eyes, no beard, and the talk between "Real Big Boss" and Ocelot occurs at 6 AM when they left on the whaler ship at 4AM. The game can't even make sense of it's own mess, for christ's sake.

5 - Explain what Big Boss was really trying to accomplsh. Instead, we see him drinking pina coladas in vacation after a nine year break while his body double does all the work, then he comes back to Foxhound for reasons, sends two of his best men to kill Venom Snake, then steals Oilix and build Zanzibar Land... It makes Big Boss seem like an asshole, especially when you consider the fact he's basically okay with his best men being maintained in an artifical coma for years, a man that took the plunge and got most of the Shrapnel to save Big Boss. Instead of being treated like a war hero, he's maintained in an artifical coma for nine years, gets his personality destroyed and replaced by Big Boss's memes, possibly gets his eye volontarily destroyed, then is used to take the heat off the real Big Boss for the next ten years as he does all the heavy lifting. For a guy that left the patriots because he found it ammoral that Zero wanted to make clones of him, he sure doesn't mind the psychological terrorism they do on Venom. Honestly, this kinda makes me want to hate Big Boss as a character. He went from a guy that built nations because he was fed up with soldiers being used to a guy willing to destroy someone's personality just to take the heat off him. The "real" Big Boss would have heard Zero's phantom plan and said "Sorry Ocelot, but that's not what I'm going to do" I'll get back into shape, I'll get my revenge myself and if I die doing so, so be it ! I'm only alive when cheating death on the battlefield anyway !
 
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I said this in my initial post in this thread as well: Kojima applied The Truman Show on the MGS universe. It's bad.

Man.. going with this crazy ass filler 'story' instead of just giving us the rise of Outer Heaven and that MG1 connection at the end is such a tragedy.

By not giving us that story, which btw I don't care either way, it tells me he was too intimidated to tell it. This game has ZERO character development whereas the Outerheaven/ Apocalypse Now storyline requires A LOT of character development.

Yup, definitely feels like Kojima either didn't want to portray Big Boss becoming an evil villain or that he felt that he isn't capable of doing that story and instead took the easy way out by cooking up this contrived twist accompanied with an unimportant, nonsense story.

The most probable reason is that Kojima felt that this phantom switcharoo twist and story is truly much more interesting and better than telling us the full story about Big Boss' downfall and his creation of Outer Heaven, which is even more depressing and demented if it is true.
 
I have reasons to believe the ending conversation happened after Venom Snake awoke.

A Kaz quote from the dialogue:



This confirms they were talking about it quite recently. And as we know, Kaz had been held hostage in Afghanistan. So it had to be after Venom Snake saved him. Why else mention the 9 years? At the end of the conversation, I feel like I can hear Kaz leaving with his cane, too.

We also know Ocelot hypnotized himself shortly after he rescues both Venom Snake and Big Boss. This implies he remembered the true events again. Which is weird. But yeah.

I also feel like Kaz is way too angry (Fuck Big Boss.) for this to happen before the events of MGSV. His hatred seems to be fueled by him aiding Big Boss and listening to all of his orders in MGSV and only afterwards finding out he wasn't being led by the real Big Boss.

In the end, Ocelot says this btw:



To me, this heavily implies Ocelot was the one Liquid sent to kill Kaz.
Yea, it makes sense for Ocelot to Murder Miller instead of Liquid. Perhaps to show Liquid whose side Ocelot is really on he kills his former Diamond Dogs "comrade".
 
It really gets to me, Kojima had one thing to do, one very simple thing, to please all the fans, and it was to be faithful to what he himself presented in the trailers and give us a revenge-filled game showcasing the fall of Big Boss and the rise of Outer Heaven... And yet he managed to do a 360 and do the exact opposite, leaving us with a game that doesn't fill in the gaps and is basically needless filler in the timeline once again.

I guess it doesn't matter anyomre, since he's been fired, but Kojima really needs to listen to fan feedback and actually deliver people the game they want.

After MGS1, everyone wanted to see more of Snake, to see how Foxdie was going to affect him, we all wanted a Snake vs Solidus fight. Kojima sold us on the project by lying to us, showing us the tanker and Big Shell with Solid Snake as a playable character, only to piss us off and introduce raiden, the patriots, needless plot convulsions about AI and simulations and a plot that didn't really make any sense.

For MGS3, most people wanted the game they didn't get with MGS2, a proper game about Solid Snake, but Kojima went back to the past, making us play as Big Boss, with the exact same voice and personality as Snake. It was an odd choice, one that could have been terrible, but for once, it actually worked. Kojima nailed it.

Then, for MGS4, Kojima decided what we wanted out of the final Solid Snake game was to see him as an old geezer. He promised huge, dynamic conflict zones where you could slide with various factions, or "let the world be". I'm not saying it was a pure betrayal, but explaining everything with nanomachines, retconning supernatural events and stuff like vamp / ocelot's arm, and Bringing Back Big boss for an epilogue.. Still, it was probably the MGS game where Kojima actually delievered what he promised, well asides from clearly depicting Snake as a guy that was going to kill himself and setting him up for the deed for 4 chapters.

Finally, comes MGSV, where Kojima promises us Big Boss becoming a "Demon", a plot about "Revenge", the "Rise of Outer Heaven". The marketing campaign is built on the idea of Big Boss training child soldiers, killing people in cages, covered in blood in burned villages and shooting his own men in his own base. But instead, we get a dumb body double plot where the guy builds a meaningless base that is obsolete anyway since the "real" bases are Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land anyway. It accomplishes nothing in terms of overalll story arc asides from awnsering a question noone asked. How did Big Boss survive MG1 (awnser : He didn't)... Wow, did we really need a whole game to setup a body double just for THAT.... Coudn't he just have been left for dead by Snake due to the detonation sequence being in place and crawl out into a vent leading to an escape route or whatever. It's a MSX game for christ's sake, it's not like we saw a clear boss fight ... He just explodes like all other bosses do and then you climb a ladder out of Outer Heaven.

Kojima doesn't do what the fans want, he does what he wants. It has been this way since MGS2.

Your post could literally be lifted from 2002 after MGS2's release. It seems like you haven't learned anything?

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/we-were-all-cheated-mgs2-was-a-marketing-lie.14312734/
 
Yup, definitely feels like Kojima either didn't want to portray Big Boss becoming an evil villain or that he felt that he isn't capable of doing that story and instead took the easy way out by cooking up this contrived twist accompanied with an unimportant, nonsense story.

The most probable reason is that Kojima felt that this phantom switcharoo twist and story is truly much more interesting and better than telling us the full story about Big Boss' downfall and his creation of Outer Heaven, which is even more depressing and demented if it is true.

Big boss is still a villain in Metal Gear 2 though.

The link between naked snake and Metal Gear 1 was made, just not in the way everybody wanted, and probably not in the way kojipro wanted either, but who could have predicted the way Konami imploded back in 2008 when this game started production?
 
Kojima doesn't do what the fans want, he does what he wants. It has been this way since MGS2.

Your post could literally be lifted from 2002 after MGS2's release. It seems like you haven't learned anything?

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/we-were-all-cheated-mgs2-was-a-marketing-lie.14312734/
Kojima has been pandering to ostensible metal gear fans since mgs2. Raiden is a product of that. His taking input from Co writers and kojipro staff like Ryan Payton is a reflection of that.
 
You mean a "180". If he had done a "360", then you would have gotten exactly what you wanted.

Ah, the memories...

05pmoYi.gif
 
The Best is Yet to Come is my favourite followed by Snake Eater, Can't Say Goodbye to Yesterday and Way to Fall.

I used to like Sins of the Father but Skullman's jeep ride ruined it for me.
 
Just finished 46.

Huh.

What a weird ending. I would have appreciated it more if it wasn't spoiled, though. No matter how careful I was I moused over a link about Ishmael and the address said "Big Boss" so fuck that and my brain put it all together.

Fun game overall. Story isn't brilliant, though.
 
I feel like a geriatric old man with back problems and a giant moustache is not what the fans wanted. I may be alone in this.

Which is exactly why there is a completely random and hilariously poorly "justified" Young Snake mask you can equip.

And that one thing doesn't quite account for the crazy amount of pandering present in the rest of the story, which is what ended up destroying it.
 
I haven't finished the full story yet, but I finished Chapter 1. I'm aware by saying this I'm probably gonna take some heat, but whatever I want to talk about it.

Did anyone else just laugh hysterically when they finished Mission 31 (I think, the one where you beat Metal Gear and "end the game")? Like, was the game trying to make me feel guilty about speaking English...or what exactly was the message they were trying to convey to me? Regardless, the game's plot is so poorly paced and all over the place, what on earth were they thinking trying to get preachy at the end? I spent that whole game abducting people, building a private military, doing questionable things for the highest bidder, and murdering people in the name of revenge, and then you want to get deep and philosophical with me about what exactly?

Also, nukes are bad, and Metal Gear is dangerous, but after we break yours we're gonna build our own.

Post-note; I love Metal Gear Solid V. I think it's the best stealth action game I have ever played, the lack of a story getting in your way only made this game better. However, the story that was there, especially what tried to creep in at the end, isn't just barely existent or poorly paced, it's just bad. Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing how it wraps up in Chapter 2.
 
Guys, so what was your overall most favorite vocal song in the series?

"Snake Eater"
"Way to Fall"
"Calling to the Night"
"Heavens Divide"
"A Phantom Pain"
"Sins of the Father"
"The Best is Yet to Come"
"Can't Say Goodbye to Yesterday"
"Victory Song"


Calling to the Night is mine, followed by Way to Fall, but they're all incredible.

The best is yet to come for me. This live version of Calling to the Night is incredible.

I feel like a geriatric old man with back problems and a giant moustache is not what the fans wanted. I may be alone in this.

Old snake is the best iteration of SS, imo. A broken down guy who's still fighting the good fight no matter what.
 
Big Boss killing the kids in cages was really obvious misdirection from the moment that trailer came out. Multiple people concluded as such.
 
Guys, so what was your overall most favorite vocal song in the series?

"Snake Eater"
"Way to Fall"
"Calling to the Night"
"Heavens Divide"
Quiet's Theme
"A Phantom Pain"
"Sins of the Father"
"The Best is Yet to Come"
"Can't Say Goodbye to Yesterday"
"Victory Song"
Here's To You


Calling to the Night is mine, followed by Way to Fall, but they're all incredible.

Edit: Added a couple of songs I forgot. I'm slacking :P

Don't forget Love Theme from Metal Gear Solid 4. Also, I think Way to Fall was licensed.
 
It seems obvious to me that 6 missions in Kojima realized that the main villain of the game hadn't been introduced yet, so shoehorned him in where they could.

There is no reason for Skull Face to show up there. Antagonizing Big Boss serves no purpose. Nothing about that scene makes sense, really.

I thought it was just skull face trying to kill big boss.
 
Big boss is still a villain in Metal Gear 2 though.

My point was that people wanted the story to be about how he became the villain and the events surrounding how he built Zanizibarland/Outer Heaven. We already know the guy is evil in the MSX games.

The link between naked snake and Metal Gear 1 was made, just not in the way everybody wanted, and probably not in the way kojipro wanted either, but who could have predicted the way Konami imploded back in 2008 when this game started production?

This excuse that the story got altered and made worse because of Konami these maybe last 2 years doesn't hold up. Kojima most likely made up his mind what this game would be about and the whole Big Boss phantom twist in pre-production and early development of the game. Maybe he wanted us to play as his phantom for half the game and the latter half as the real Big Boss, but if that's the case he's a horrible production manager and was taking way too long to get the game finished.
 
Guys, so what was your overall most favorite vocal song in the series?

"Snake Eater"
"Way to Fall"
"Calling to the Night"
"Heavens Divide"
Quiet's Theme
"A Phantom Pain"
"Sins of the Father"
"The Best is Yet to Come"
"Can't Say Goodbye to Yesterday"
"Victory Song"
Here's To You


Calling to the Night is mine, followed by Way to Fall, but they're all incredible.

Edit: Added a couple of songs I forgot. I'm slacking :P
I freaking love A Phantom Pain. Can't believe it doesn't appear in-game outside of it's collected tape.
 
Kojima doesn't do what the fans want, he does what he wants. It has been this way since MGS2.
At thus point, I don't think even Kojima knows what Kojima wants in regards to videogames.

I know he wants to be a movie director, hence the Kiefer casting, the 'single shot' camera of MGSV.

The irony being, V proves Kojima is not a good, I'd say terrible movie director. From inept casting choices (Kiefer, Troy Baker doesn't suit Ocelot) to the story pacing, even as a film, V is neither a fun movie nor well-directed one.
 
What I think at the moment about the plot of this game is what Paz says each time you give her a photo.

"My head...I'm so confused...It hurts".
 
I freaking love A Phantom Pain. Can't believe it doesn't appear in-game outside of it's collected tape.

My belief is that there was supposed to be an intro with it playing, ala MGS3, but it got cut.

I also have a theory on the song. There are two distinctive voices singing in it. I believe the first voice that sings, the deep one, represents Big Boss, as the lyrics correspond to him, in a way. The lighter voice that sings the chorus (As I become more present now...) represents Venom Snake.
 
Big Boss killing the kids in cages was really obvious misdirection from the moment that trailer came out. Multiple people concluded as such.

It's framed in such a way though, with the miller dialogue about "No greater good", the "Punished Snake : A Fallen Legend" moinker, the "Cypher Sent us trough hell, but we're going even deeper "Kaz, i'm already a demon".

And the in-game explaination is extremely dumb too, with Big Boss basically shooting in the cave and recording the audio for the client... Stupid.... Then again, after seeing him strangling chico in a cage, what did we except ?

I especially hate how Kojima removed the mask from Big Boss, any signs of the DD troops being infested by vocal cord parasites, gave the scene regular lighting in the base and used the footage to hint that Big Boss would turn on his own men and shoot them point blank as part of the story... Not since MGS2 has he done so much manipulative editing.

... "No greater goo
 
The game gives absolutely no indication that he lost sight of anything at any point. He was in a coma for nine years until roughly the beginning of the game and merely goes along with the doppleganger plan-- after the plan was already fully in motion and he couldn't do anything about it besides kill Venom Snake, which he was reluctant to do considering he was his best buddy next to Kaz (bullshit excuse that came out of nowhere).

Venom is Big Boss too. And since Venom is the representation of Big Boss in this game, it's his actions that I'm basing my conclusions on. And since Venom has all of Big Boss' memories and believes himself to be him, we can assume that BB would have made the same decisions that Venom did. In Peace Walker, Big Boss created an army to fight for the victims of war, without any allegiance to any nation. They offered soldiers a home where they wouldn't be manipulated to fight in wars that were waged based on an ideology that only served those in power. In The Phantom Pain, Diamond Dogs was strictly a mercenary group looking for revenge against Skullface who was to blame for the destruction of MSF. They wen't so far as to harbor known traitors, putting their own men at risk, just to get closer to Skullface. How is that anything but a loss of ideals?

I know some people are upset about the "twist" and to be honest I don't understand the reason it was necessary to begin with. Lazy writing, bad plot, blah blah blah. None of that matters to me. I enjoyed the game despite its flaws and I'm not gonna waste my time or anyone else's complaining about shit that can't be changed. I don't care if a story isn't all tied up and nicely packaged by the end. I'm only interested in the ideas that are presented. And now that we're all but certain William S. Burroughs is an influence on Kojima's writing style, I can believe that it was, to some degree, intentional. Call it the Kojima Cut-up Technique.
 
Apparently Pequod is the pilot of the XOF chopper Skull Face comes out of at OKB Zero.

See here

Source of who found it

What could it mean??? And apparently all the other pilots (for other choppers) in the game are a different model so it's definitely not them cutting corners.

Just thought I'd post it here, it seemed interesting to me.
 
Apparently Pequod is the pilot of the XOF chopper Skull Face comes out of at OKB Zero.

See here

Source of who found it

What could it mean??? And apparently all the other pilots (for other choppers) in the game are a different model so it's definitely not them cutting corners.

Just thought I'd post it here, it seemed interesting to me.

Who's the pilot of the helicopter that takes the child soldiers away from Mother Base?

Chapter 3 should have been about hunting that disloyal fuck down.
 
It's framed in such a way though, with the miller dialogue about "No greater good", the "Punished Snake : A Fallen Legend" moinker, the "Cypher Sent us trough hell, but we're going even deeper "Kaz, i'm already a demon".

And the in-game explaination is extremely dumb too, with Big Boss basically shooting in the cave and recording the audio for the client... Stupid.... Then again, after seeing him strangling chico in a cage, what did we except ?

I especially hate how Kojima removed the mask from Big Boss, any signs of the DD troops being infested by vocal cord parasites, gave the scene regular lighting in the base and used the footage to hint that Big Boss would turn on his own men and shoot them point blank as part of the story... Not since MGS2 has he done so much manipulative editing.

... "No greater goo

There is no truth. Only interpretations. It is intentional. A huge chunk of the story thematically is the idea of legends. How. Big Boss as an icon was riddled with lies. Naturally that would extend to the nature of his character.

I'm not arguing the story is good lol. I was not a fan. And a lot of this falls apart when you realize Big Boss' evilness comes straight from the horse's mouth in MG2. But MGSV is legit classic MGS layered storytelling. As you say, it is manipulative. From the trailers to the final product.
 
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