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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

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Just reading back a few pages, the more people point out the inconsistencies in the narrative the more heart breaking this is.

Metal Gear should not have gone out like this.
 
Alienous said:
I would have liked some development. The Phantom Pain provides no insight into why he is how he is. He was just always a prick, apparently.

You could have him be a cocky shit but perhaps show him falling out with Big Boss, rather than hating him from the get go.
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I guess I just find it strange because a lot of us share the opinion that Ocelot's character was a bit neutered in this game. We wish that he was more like the Ocelot we'd expect him to be.

All the characters in this game are so serious and gloomy that I start to miss the zaniness of previous entries. I want Liquid yelling "FATHA!" and I want I want Ocelot spinning guns around and spattering brains against the wall. I guess it's just hard for me to imagine wanting any more characters in this game to not act like the characters they're supposed to be just so we can watch them turn into them at the end of the game.
 
Probably experimented with what kind of person both will grow up as. A person is defined by how they were raised. If Liquid was swapped with Solid, he would be a totally different person.
 
So the only missable things to develop are Quiet's 2 uniforms - the XOF one and the Sniper Wolf one?

As soon as I get those, I can do the mission where she leaves, right?
 
The response that a 10/10 "isn't perfect" is really a silly one. Of course it's not perfect. No kidding. No game really is (except for a few like Tetris). I don't think anyone who has talked about reviews has talked about "perfection" in regards to the 10. It's a response to something that hasn't really been said.
 
Neiteio said:
Reviewers vs. story: The way I see it, a 10/10 doesn’t mean a game is “perfect.” Some of the most glowing reviews still acknowledge shortcomings. It just means that for the reviewer, the experience as a whole was more than the sum of its parts. And MGSV is a very complex game with many parts. Some reviewers were able to separate the game from its marketing, any knowledge of cut content and any preconceived notions about how the narrative would play out, and look at it for what it is rather than what they think it was meant to be. And for those people, I can see it scoring high.
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This is the main problem I have with scores. Every persons individual scoring system is different, and this honestly screws certain titles while it favors others. I am of the opinion that 10/10 means perfect, and I can even accept perfect with minor flaws. However, if one is to take an objective viewpoint on MGSV then it is simply impossible to assign it a 10 (from my point of view). There is a laundry list of flaws, and to discard them means one is not objective.

Personally, I don't care how lenient any individual persons scoring system is. There is simply no being objective and scoring MGSV a 10. It's not possible if you actually sit down and examine what exactly is wrong with the game. I can understand a personal score of 10, but not a critical objective thinking score.
 
118 hours and I'm done as far as the main story (not 100% done as far as Chapter 2 remixed missions and Side-Ops)...as far as Mission 46...

was it the best ending...no...but I didn't hate it...one thing that bothered me even when I first played that hospital mission for the first time was why does that other dude who you're not controlling have Kiefer Sutherland's Snake voice?...being that this was my first MGS game I just thought it was a Hideo Kojima thing and moved on...but now it all makes sense

as far as cut content...yes it's been confirmed that content was cut and there was an extra Mission 51...watching the unfinished Mission on YouTube, it looked great and I wished that was in the game but honestly Eli's ending in the actual game was fine as well...I don't need everything tied up neatly with a bow...same with movies, sometimes it's good to leave things a bit open-ended and leave it up to the viewer or player to interpret...Eli's story does continue in the earlier MGS games (which take place chronologically after Phantom Pain)...so we do know what happens after he leaves Mother Base and continues as Liquid Snake

the other things that were somewhat confirmed to be cut from the game were a return to Camp Omega (from Ground Zeroes), using the Battle Gear in the field (which was determined to be over-powered), an 80's filter which gave missions a different look, more backstory to the child soldiers and D-Dog's origin story

I don't believe for a second that there were 30+ new Missions or 5+ new Chapters cut...that's internet crazy talk...overall I'm satisfied with the game overall and I would still give it a 9/10 based on content and time played...I haven't even touched the MP FOB stuff yet...the things I disliked about the game were the Chapter 2 remixed missions with increased difficulty and the repetitive Side-Ops...what doesn't get mentioned enough is how flawless the performance was in the game...it barely moved under 59.9 fps...the only times it did was when Quiet would rush past you and the dust and particle effects would bring down the fps for a brief second...except for the major save game bug (which was patched quickly) there are barely any bugs or performance issues to speak of...and I'll say it again, Mother Base is the most fully realized, realistic operating base in video game history
 
Pretty sure they lied to Liquid about his recessive genes, which probably wasn't too hard when he was the only blonde clone. I was okay with Eli being a prick because it was entertaining at least. The game needed more of him if anything. Yeah some character development would be better, but I was taking what I could get at that point.
 
Grinchy said:
I guess I just find it strange because a lot of us share the opinion that Ocelot's character was a bit neutered in this game. We wish that he was more like the Ocelot we'd expect him to be.

All the characters in this game are so serious and gloomy that I start to miss the zaniness of previous entries. I want Liquid yelling "FATHA!" and I want I want Ocelot spinning guns around and spattering brains against the wall. I guess it's just hard for me to imagine wanting any more characters in this game to not act like the characters they're supposed to be just so we can watch them turn into them at the end of the game.
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The issue with Ocelot is that he's a weak character. I'd take proto-Ocelot if it was interesting. I don't need him reloading guns every 5 seconds.

Eli is the other extreme. There's a story in Liquid's origins that could be interesting to tell that the game forgoes for having the character basically shout "Remember MGS1?" in every scene.
 
Wagram said:
This is the main problem I have with scores. Every persons individual scoring system is different, and this honestly screws certain titles while it favors others. I am of the opinion that 10/10 means perfect, and I can even accept perfect with minor flaws. However, if one is to take an objective viewpoint on MGSV then it is simply impossible to assign it a 10 (from my point of view). There is a laundry list of flaws, and to discard them means one is not objective.

Personally, I don't care how lenient any individual persons scoring system is. There is simply no being objective and scoring MGSV a 10. It's not possible if you actually sit down and examine what exactly is wrong with the game. I can understand a personal score of 10, but not a critical objective thinking score.
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Well thanks a lot for going and disproving my claim I made right above you :P

I think the best way to think of a "10" is as a "Masterpiece." No games are ever really perfect (with the fewest exceptions), so that's the fairest way to approach a 10 in my eyes. Corresponding with 10-1, my scale goes something like:

Masterpiece --> Great --> Very Good --> Good --> Fine --> Average --> Bad --> Very Bad --> Horrible --> Appalling
 
I was really hoping this game would have eli be just a "normal" kid and he becomes the man he does because of how big boss treats him. But no, he doesn't even meet big boss, venom is super nice to him, and he's already liquid even though he should just be Eli.
Remember that monologue he gave to Snake about big boss and how he as "chosen", that big boss treated him like dirt, how he is so mad at snake for killing big boss because he actually had beef to pick. Well that shit didn't even happen. Fuck.

Now liquid just seems like an idiot in mgs1.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
Speaking of Liquid, he was the recessive son, right?

So why did Cipher raise him to be a soldier and send Snake to go do whatever because fuck him? Did they just mix up the results?
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Solid is the inferior one. Ocelot mentions it during his talk with Solidus during the ending to MGS ("The inferior one was the winner after all"). We also hear Naomi in the ending sequence talk about how we shouldn't allow our genes define our future. And Gene was the theme to the original game. You can see in the cutscenes to MGSV that Liquid is actually really talented and skilled even at that young age, but he's to obsessed with other things to really take advantage of it in the way Solid is able to take advantage of the skills he has.
 
Finally finished. What a game. I did not expect it to stick in my head like it has been for the past few hours. Yeah, there are a ton of issues with the story, but I think going on a media blackout really helped, as I had no narrative expectations going in. Only following the MGS series for the past year also probably helped too.

Aside from the missing episode 51 video and the nuke video, is there any other major story content in the game which isn't obvious? Quiet is gone and I've listened to the truth tapes, there's nothing else hidden, right?
 
JayEH said:
I was really hoping this game would have eli be just a "normal" kid and he becomes the man he does because of how big boss treats him. But no, he doesn't even meet big boss, venom is super nice to him, and he's already liquid even though he should just be Eli.
Remember that monologue he gave to Snake about big boss and how he as "chosen", that big boss treated him like dirt, how he is so mad at snake for killing big boss because he actually had beef to pick. Well that shit didn't even happen. Fuck.

Now liquid just seems like an idiot in mgs1.
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K70O12J.jpg
 
SolidSnakex said:
Solid is the inferior one. Ocelot mentions it during his talk with Solidus during the ending to MGS ("The inferior one was the winner after all"). We also hear Naomi in the ending sequence talk about how we shouldn't allow our genes define our future. And Gene was the theme to the original game. You can see in the cutscenes to MGSV that Liquid is actually really talented and skilled even at that young age, but he's to obsessed with other things to really take advantage of it in the way Solid is able to take advantage of the skills he has.
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But that's all skill he worked for, as Big Boss' genes are for shit. It's all about belief, just like the medic, but despite believing himself to be inferior young Liquid is the real OG.
 
brobban said:
So, I've used the butterfly emblem. Am I screwed in regards to getting mission 150?
No way I'm replaying the entire game again.
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It locks you out of the Q side op and mission

I did it too, I saw the cutscene ending im good. No way in hell am I restarting this shit from scratch
 
Gorillaz said:
It locks you out of the Q side op and mission

I did it too, I saw the cutscene ending im good. No way in hell am I restarting this shit from scratch
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Thx, so other than Side Op 150 and the cutscene, is there anything else I've missed?
I heard she leaves after mission 43, is there a different scene for that?
 
brobban said:
So, I've used the butterfly emblem. Am I screwed in regards to getting mission 150?
No way I'm replaying the entire game again.
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Can always take it off your logo. I put the butterfly on mine just to make sure I maxed out everything with quiet and developed all her shit. Then I took it off and did her mission.
 
Liquid's so crazy and warped with his inferiority complex he must've saw any act of kindness by Big Medic as condescending, BM was just fucking with him.
 
People need to stop digging up stuff. Just gets me more bummed out.

Edit:

"you're only going to kill a man"

I wish lines like that didn't get cut. I really didn't like how skullface died. He was so helpless and died pathetically. Compare that to the other MGS villains who had more "honorable" deaths. Instead he gets crushed by his metal gear and played with before Huey comes in. It would have been nice to have an epic fight with him (like every other MGS villain). And with a line like the one I posted it would make him seem not human (which is what Kojima built him up as).
 
Oh man, I actually forgot about the man on fire fight when I brought up the boss fights with someone. Looking back on it, it's not surprising that I forgot.

I ran by the pool, blew him into the pool by blowing up that tank next to it, and then just ran out into and out of the tunnel. He never even touched me.

What an amazing boss fight!
 
Shadow_Lord said:
Guys, so what was your overall most favorite vocal song in the series?

"Snake Eater"
"Way to Fall"
"Calling to the Night"
"Heavens Divide"
Quiet's Theme
"A Phantom Pain"
"Sins of the Father"
"The Best is Yet to Come"
"Can't Say Goodbye to Yesterday"
"Victory Song"
Here's To You


Calling to the Night is mine, followed by Way to Fall, but they're all incredible.

Edit: Added a couple of songs I forgot. I'm slacking :P
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The Best is Yet to Come. No question about it.
 
Crypt said:
Can always take it off your logo. I put the butterfly on mine just to make sure I maxed out everything with quiet and developed all her shit. Then I took it off and did her mission.
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Is that so?
So even though I've finished mission 46, I can just remove the butterfly and access side op 150?
 
Alienous said:
"You don't care what I have to say, Big Boss?"

You god damned had the dialogue, Kojima. So why the desperate use of Sins of the Father?

This doesn't sound like it's for MGO, so what gives, Kojima?
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It's kind of mix of maybe's with a boss fight and maybe MGO related. A real damn shame really.
 
orthodoxy1095 said:
Well thanks a lot for going and disproving my claim I made right above you :P

I think the best way to think of a "10" is as a "Masterpiece." No games are ever really perfect (with the fewest exceptions), so that's the fairest way to approach a 10 in my eyes. Corresponding with 10-1, my scale goes something like:

Masterpiece --> Great --> Very Good --> Good --> Fine --> Average --> Bad --> Very Bad --> Horrible --> Appalling
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Even calling it a masterpiece would be too kind. How can a game that only excels at gameplay be called that? Sure, gameplay is important, heck, The most important thing, but a masterpiece should be excellent in several areas, and mgsV just... isn't.

I mean, i guess you could call its graphic design excellent too, if you ignore most of afghanistan and africa.
 
orthodoxy1095 said:
The response that a 10/10 "isn't perfect" is really a silly one. Of course it's not perfect. No kidding. No game really is (except for a few like Tetris). I don't think anyone who has talked about reviews has talked about "perfection" in regards to the 10. It's a response to something that hasn't really been said.
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If you haven't seen it, then you haven't been paying attention. Even super bunny hop begins his video by saying "the best way to fail ad a critic is to imply that something is perfect..." and then goes on to say that reviewers gave the game "perfect 10s". And while he does go on to explain himself more clearly, it's still the use of "perfect 10" by him and by many others on neogaf and elsewhere that is prompting people to respond in such a way.
 
Uh, is there somewhere online with the timeline info text dump at the end of mission 46? It scrolled too fast and I couldn't read half of it and it had more story in that scroll than the entire game.
 
yurinka said:
Being a dev since 10 years ago, regarding 'cut' content that people may found inside the game, I wouldn't point to Konami.

In 100% of the games there are changes during development so a lot of work done goes to the garbage bin, there is prototyped stuff (from entire features or game modes to content such as enemy skins, weapons, stages, missions, etc) that gets rejected and not included in the game, or gets replaced by other candidates.

Many times devs directly cut some 'minor' stuff just because the team is not going to reach the next development milestone on time. Even if they get a time extension for the milestone or if the game gets delayed.

The thing is that in a lot of cases devs forget to properly clean all this unused stuff and sometimes their files are included in the final game even if aren't used.

After 170 hours playing, I completed all the main missions (including the 'secret' one) and a lot of secondary missions. The game doesn't feel incomplete. In any case, I'd just have called "Epilogue" to the chapter 2, and would have labeled the repeated missions as secondary missions.


It's quite usual to include a video that explains the idea of the game in trailers or promotional demos that isn't included in the final game. They don't aim to replicate 1:1 the game, is just to get the idea.

Btw, regarding the drones, you can buy them as defense for the multiplayer infiltrations. And there are several cutscenes where you see choppers or airplanes flying over mother base.
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While you are more in the know about the development process, I still have a hard time agreeing.
If this wasn't a KojiPro game, I might feel differently but this level of inconsistency and incompleteness in story just isn't them. Even at their worst, they're better than this.

Pretty much this:

FlashbladeGAF said:
Kojima knows how to tell a complete story too. With a proper beginning, middle and build up to a climatic conclusion. Regardless of quality, we didn't get that this time because reasons.

5 games with proper story arcs out of 6, I think its safe to say he didn't get the chance to be himself with the 6th one.
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And I'm not saying they did nothing wrong either. I think it's safe to say there was some management and budget issues. Just a bad situation all around.
 
Man, fuck this stupid fucking horn and blood.

Ooh, he's covered in blood and his horn is really big. He really is a demon. Wow. So deep, such subtlety. Masterful.

Give me an option to remove this stupid shit, ffs. I guarantee this stupid fucking horn and blood bullshit is going to ruin the MGS3 costume dlc.

Get visually punished by the game for wanting to complete everything. Get visually punished for playing how you want. Get visually punished because Kojima.
 
Neiteio said:
I’m just about finished with the game… And quite frankly, I love nearly everything about it. Here are my thoughts, based on recurring topics I’ve seen on this forum. This includes my take on the unconventional narrative structure, the twist and the themes, as well as other topics like the reviews, Quiet controversy and more.

A huge post for a huge game… I hope you don’t mind!


Reviewers vs. story: The way I see it, a 10/10 doesn’t mean a game is “perfect.” Some of the most glowing reviews still acknowledge shortcomings. It just means that for the reviewer, the experience as a whole was more than the sum of its parts. And MGSV is a very complex game with many parts. Some reviewers were able to separate the game from its marketing, any knowledge of cut content and any preconceived notions about how the narrative would play out, and look at it for what it is rather than what they think it was meant to be. And for those people, I can see it scoring high.

Where story is concerned, a game’s narrative is such a subjective thing. The heavy-handed storytelling in MGS4 actively undermined my enjoyment of that game, so I appreciate the approach here where the performances are more subtle, the cutscenes are more compact, and the bulk of the world-building is handled by cassette tapes you can enjoy at your leisure.

I’ve also come to appreciate the unconventional narrative structure. It’s essentially a standalone adventure in Ch. 1, and a more intimate epilogue in Ch. 2. The main conflict is resolved in the middle of the game — a sharp departure from how games usually handle conflict — and the second half of the game is like extended falling action, the characters wrestling with their lingering “phantom pains” across a series of incidents that are only loosely connected by theme. Ch. 2 is like a short story collection, then, giving us a look at how life at Mother Base went on after Skull Face, and how their peace was poisoned by a lack of fulfillment from their revenge, paranoia over spies and traitors, and the occasional tragedy. It’s a look at the life Venom achieved — a state of unrest — before learning at some point in the future he was living a lie.

I also like how the ending reframes the idea of “Big Boss” as not a man but a myth, and not one man, but two. And I like the tragic quality this lends to the second man, given everything he experienced throughout the game. But I’ll talk more about this in my analysis of the two chapters and the twist.


Gameplay variety: Yes, most missions and side ops can be described as extract/eliminate a target, retrieve resources, and infiltrate/exfiltrate the hot zone. And yes, there are many side ops with a number at the end, i.e. “Prisoner Extraction 05.” On paper, they would seem repetitive… but they never felt repetitive to me, thanks to the tools and tactics available, the many ways to approach each level, and the varied enemy AI. The moment-to-moment gameplay continues to be fresh and fun even after completing the game. And the Mother Base meta-game makes the progression loop incredibly addictive. I’m still amazed at how utterly engrossing this game can be hundreds of hours later. I’ve experienced the story but I’m far from finished with the game.


The open world and ACC: I actually like how focused the open world feels. The lack of filler between checkpoints and installations made me realize how needlessly bloated many open-world games can be. The world in MGSV is “empty,” in a sense, but this works to the game’s advantage because it allows you to freely assess the situation and infiltrate from any direction, even tracking targets from one location to the next without being slowed down or sidetracked along the way. Maybe it’s more accurate to think of the game as a series of interconnected sandboxes… “Open world” might have the wrong connotation for what this game is trying to achieve.

The only downside is there are times when the lay of the land forces you to take “the long way” around mountains and valleys, and taking the chopper comes with the caveat of its arrival and departure time. You could boot straight back to the ACC, but I’m not sure if it saves your progress when you do this. There should be more fast-travel options. I doubt the game is masking much of a load time if the box travel exists. I think they were aiming for immersion, but sometimes it just inconveniences the player.


The bosses: Some people were disappointed in them, but I think they delivered. Both encounters with Sahelanthropus (hiding in Mission 12, and fighting in Mission 31) had an incredible sense of scale and felt like something out of Pacific Rim. With the other bosses, I like how there are alternate ways of dealing with them. You can sneak past the Skulls or run away, which made good use of the open levels. You can slow down the Man on Fire and escape, or OHKO him by running him off the cliff with the jeep, knocking him into the pool, etc. You can beat Eli without him even noticing you by sneaking up on him to bypass the cutscene and tranquilizing him when his back is turned. You can knock out Quiet in two hits by calling down supply drops.

The Skulls are especially cool. When you fight the armor Skulls and they’re ninja-dashing everywhere, it feels like something out of an anime. I like the concept of a boss that functions as a team. The sniper Skulls trying to sneak up on you and gut you with their machete is a nice touch. The Man on Fire battle was clever in how you have to turn the environment against him since he can repel any direct hits. And the Eli battle is like the opposite of the first Sahelanthropus battle — now it’s Venom who is the hunter. It’s a good number of fights spanning a variety of styles. They lack only the never-ending speeches of past MGS titles.


Progression: No grinding in my experience. For Chapter 2, I just did the new story missions and the important side ops (listed in yellow, under their own tab in the side ops menu) and returned to Mother Base on a regular basis, advancing the story without trouble. Sometimes I’d do a couple regular side ops first, like the Wandering Soldier side ops to advance the Paz subplot. There was no need to do any of the “challenge missions.” (Although I look forward to trying them!)


Quiet controversy: Yeah, the camera’s lust for her feels inappropriate. However, I had a harder time sympathizing with her because little is said to contextualize her life as a killer. She brutally murders the doctor and nurse at the beginning of the game and doesn’t appear remorseful for it. Maybe the idea is she’s a monster and for the first time she feels something akin to love when the man she tried to kill spares her multiple times. I don’t know, but it was hard to ever see her as “sweet.” Retrieving a necklace for the kids is nice and all, but driving a knife through someone’s teeth, choking them with wire, etc., is a bit much! At least give me a tragic backstory that explains why she became an assassin (but nothing like Drebin’s explanation of the B&B Corp in MGS4, please). Still, she has her moments and is one of the more compelling characters.

On a side note, I find it funny how Kaz is the only voice of reason regarding Quiet. She has direct ties to Cipher and tried to kill Big Boss twice. That would give pause to any reasonable person, but Big Boss and Ocelot just shrug it off and ignore him. “But Kaz… She’s hot!”


THE STORY — Chapter 1: A simple and straightforward tale of revenge… and I think it’s stronger for it. Big Boss returns to the world to rebuild his army, his home and his legend, while trying to get leads on Cipher. Along the way he uncovers an ethnic cleansing operation and plans to escalate the Cold War. Skull Face is a villain’s villain — theatrical and verbose — who wants to end Western cultural imperialism by eliminating the English language. It’s an excuse to touch on how words shape our lives and the world around us. There’s also a bit of intrigue as you try to piece together discoveries like the invalids and the yellowcake — all part of a larger scheme that involves the Third Child and Man on Fire, Sahelanthropus, the Walker Gears, homegrown nukes, vocal cord parasites, and bacteria that can corrode metal and metabolize uranium… It’s so outlandishly convoluted that I can’t help but love it, lol.

The way I see it, Ch. 1 is the main narrative and a solid standalone story. Everything after Ch. 1 is a bonus rewarding fans with more character development and links to the rest of the mythos. An epilogue. Perhaps it was done this way to make the game more accessible to newcomers. I don’t think you need an intricate understanding of the entire series to enjoy this game.

I also think that Ch. 1 could be divided into three acts and this would help the pacing. This is based on the story beats and boss battles. Act 1 would be Missions 1-12, ending with the first Sahelanthropus encounter and the rumor of “a weapon to surpass Metal Gear.” Act 2 would be Missions 13-20, beginning with the discovery of the parasite victims at the oilfield and ending with the discovery of more victims at the Devil’s House where you fight the Man on Fire. This stretch is where multiple schemes come to light and the plot is thickening. And Act 3 would be Missions 21-31, where the danger is clear and the villain must be defeated.

I think dividing Ch. 1 into three acts would’ve made for a stronger sense of forward momentum. Each act would also have a number of boss battles. Act 1 focuses on Afghanistan, Act 2 focuses on Africa, and Act 3 is a mix of both Africa and Afghanistan. The first two acts also introduce buddies — D-Horse and D-Dog in Act 1, and Quiet and D-Walker in Act 2. The third act has the outbreak and FOBs. Note that this changes none of the content — just the way the chapters are divided. Good variety overall, with a sense of progress when you realize, “Oh, now I’m on Act [X]!” It would help people to trace the shape of the story in their minds, making it feel more consistent. In its current state, Ch. 1 is a bit unwieldy.


THE STORY — Chapter 2: In some ways, Ch. 2 should be called “Epilogue.” That’s how I saw it — post-story content that completes the arcs of several characters (notably Huey and Quiet) while providing clarification on concepts like the parasites and Third Child (explained by Code Talker and Ocelot), with a bit of levity (Kaz’s burgers) and several gut punches, I.E. the massacre at Mother Base, Strangelove’s fate, Huey’s trial and exile, Quiet’s sacrifice — and the way I played it, the payoff to the Paz subplot. All of which add to the loss Venom experiences and perhaps explains why he began to change in the time between this game and MG1, a time where he struggled to come to terms with his role as a body double. I mean, if you learned “The Truth” after losing everything he lost, you’d rethink things, too!

If you rename Ch. 2 “Epilogue” and rename the new story missions “Epilogue 01,” “Epilogue 02,” etc., and if you include among them the side ops involving the AI pod and Man on Fire, you’d have a structure that feels more balanced and doesn’t over-promise. After all, when people see “Ch. 2,” they expect something to match “Ch. 1,” whereas if they call it “Epilogue,” it feels like they went above and beyond. It’s about managing people’s expectations. Still, both chapters are substantial. Ch. 1 favors gameplay over story, and Ch. 2 favors story over gameplay.


Themes: Thematically, I like how MGSV deals with the folly of revenge: How an eye for an eye (or a limb for a limb) does nothing to heal the soul. The loss of language and culture… The lack of closure for those who have been wronged… The restlessness you feel when your enemy is gone and your hate has nowhere to go… These are the lingering “phantom pains” the characters experience.

The game also grapples with the “parasitization” of war — mercenaries, arms dealers, child soldiers — but it only skims the surface. Likewise, it dances around the elephant in the room that is the cult at Mother Base. If you read between the lines, you can see the game hinting at the problematic nature of torture (Ocelot comes off reasonable but Kaz is skeptical of his “art”) and the brainwashing of new recruits. It’s something that could’ve been examined in-depth, but serves to merely season the dish.

But that’s fine. The concept of “phantom pain” is the main thrust for Ch. 2, and I think the game handles it well. Phantom pain is not an enemy with a name and a face, but a lack of fulfillment that is hard to pinpoint and harder to overcome. In this sense, the “vignette” approach of Ch. 2 works well, with its series of loosely connected incidents and a general drive to find a sense of peace amid the vacuum left by the villain. With Skull Face gone, they have peace in one sense — but in another sense, they do not.

For this reason, I actually think the Ch. 3 title, “Peace,” would work well with the Ch. 2 we got. Not sure why Ch. 2 is still named “Race” with the final form that the story took. The story was no doubt altered along the way, but changing the title card for Ch. 2 should’ve been simple to do. “Peace” — or rather the inability to find it, on a personal level — would’ve framed Ch. 2 with proper focus.


The twist: I think it’s great, if a bit out of nowhere. The more subdued nature of Big Boss at first seems like the after-effect of a nine-year coma, but then you learn he’s the medic made into a body double for Big Boss and realize that’s the reason for his gentler, more benevolent spirit. It contrasts well with the “Type A” personality seen in Ishmael, a.k.a. the original Big Boss. And I think that Kiefer Sutherland did a good job differentiating the two characters with his tone. I really like the “broken” quality he brought to Venom. Venom tries to sound authoritative and hide his feelings, but I think the suffering of the world wears more on him than it ever did Big Boss.

Back to the twist… After the events of Ground Zeroes, where Skull Face destroyed Mother Base and nearly killed Big Boss, it was clear that the seemingly ubiquitous Cipher/XOF could strike from anywhere in the world. It left the real Big Boss “legit shook” and prompted the need for a decoy to draw out his enemies while continuing to build his legend around the world. He was no longer taking any chances.

I like how in “The Truth” scene, there’s a smirk that seems to suggest Venom likes hearing he’s one-half of the Big Boss legend — you can tell it’s important to his ego, to his sense of self. He’s in love with his own cult of personality. But fast-forward to MG1 (the time lapse when he turns the tape, and the Diamond Dogs logo in the background turns into Outer Heaven) and he now realizes he’s going to lose to an inexperienced rookie that neither he nor the real Big Boss expected to survive.

He’s covered in blood and his shrapnel horn has grown, a symbol of bad karma, suggesting the gradual unraveling that started in Ch. 2 has continued to erode him over 10 years, unleashing his inner demon. He realizes the hypocrisy of Big Boss, who swore to disavow governments that chewed up soldiers and spit them out, only to use Venom in precisely the same way. Perhaps Venom realizes that he himself is not much better than the man he once idolized. Venom’s men, after all, followed him to their deaths.

In its simplest form, it’s a way to explain how “Big Boss” cheated death so many times, but it also reinforces certain themes, like the use and abuse of soldiers by well-meaning people in power… and how anyone can rise to greatness through sheer force of will, regardless of origins… and how normal men can become legends but still fall from grace given the right set of circumstances. I think the repetition of such themes across the entire series is a theme in itself — how certain beliefs and behaviors are cyclical and transmit from one generation to the next.

I also like the subtle humanization of Venom that you only realize in hindsight, like the guilt he must’ve felt being unable to save Paz. Perhaps he still felt affection for her, despite her betrayal. A lot of people loved her back on Mother Base. If nothing else, it shows the medic was someone who cared about the people he tried to save. I thought the entire Paz subplot (spanning three cutscenes, 10 in-game scenes, and five cassettes) was incredible. Her last tape gave me goosebumps and made me tear up. It struck a similar note to Big Boss’ final words in MGS4. It’s his heart talking, pushing him toward a truer peace.

All in all, Venom is a character I just want to hug. I feel like he’s a gentle soul who was misled by the person he trusted most. He is given a great burden and put in extreme danger, but he still manages to save the world from Skull Face, grow the legend of Big Boss, and exercise mercy and compassion when everyone else is crying for blood. There’s a tragic element to how, even in the world of black ops, the true story of Venom is veiled in shadow. His tale is lost to history. Now when I see him in the ACC, lost in thought, I wonder what he’s feeling. A certain loneliness, perhaps… His body language and broken tone conveys a vulnerable spirit — someone who is searching for something.

Also: I don’t have a problem with the medic being a blank slate. The whole point is he’s a stand-in for the player and a fourth-wall-breaking way to say you contributed to the legend (with the caveat that he’s a male even if the player is female, to make the transformation more plausible — changing skin pigment from head to toe was already pushing it!). It’s a touching sendoff from Kojima to the fans. And someone can specialize as a medic and still be a soldier adept in combat, stealth, etc. The fact that he accompanied Big Boss on Ground Zeroes suggests to me he was a star soldier who learned from the best and had all the makings of a talented tactician, warrior and spy. Venom was to Big Boss as Big Boss was to The Boss, in other words.


Cut content and completeness: Every game has cut content. We just happen to know some of what was cut in this game. It’s true the story about Eli and the Third Child is left unresolved. They ran off with Sahelanthropus and the third English-language mating pair, and nothing came of it. Along with the underutilized Battle Gear and missing Camp Omega, it’s a striking omission. I don’t think it fundamentally changes the overall story — you can simply brush it off as “they dealt with it later” — but it’s missing all the same. As for Ch. 3, “Peace,” we don’t know what it would’ve entailed, or how early it was dropped in development. We can only trust the game was altered so it was no longer necessary.

That being said, if Konami wanted to contract Kojima and company for a “Director’s Cut,” I’d be all for it! Alternatively, I’ll gladly pay for DLC, although I don’t know who they still have on hand to develop it.


Final thoughts: This game is simply incredible. Consider the enormous complexity of its mechanics and systems, yet the elegance with which they’re executed. The balance of stance, cover, camouflage, proximity, movement speed, light and shadow… The variety of ways to infiltrate each area — in and out, over and under, thanks in part to the open world… The back and forth between combat and stealth, fight and flight… The meta-game at Mother Base and the loop it creates… The “friction” and “game feel” of every action, something that is so good I think it merits its own discussion… The gameplay is peerless for this genre (stealth) and it’s probably the most fun I’ve had in the campaign of an open-world game.

And the narrative, while lean in some respects, was still realized with a lavish attention to detail in the world-building and lore, in the subtle performances and themes. It’s more of a side story in the grand scheme of things, but I don’t think it needed to be anything else. Is there a compelling tale that could be told about what the real Big Boss was doing during this time? Probably. I’d still like to know everything leading up to the founding of Zanzibarland. But looking at what we got, I’m still satisfied with the overall tale. I would’ve preferred more character development with the supporting cast (Ocelot especially), and I would’ve liked to play Mission 51. But it’s nothing that diminishes my enjoyment of the game.

It might be better to think of this as “MGSV” rather than “MGS5.” It is Metal Gear Solid — Venom. It’s about phantom pain in the figurative sense, but also about the pain of a man who -is- a phantom. And Ch. 2 reinforces this with its vignette-based structure, where the characters continue to live out their life, searching for something, but with no fixed point like Skull Face to give them focus. The villain’s death, ironically, deprives the characters of closure. But life goes on.

In a way, MGSV is a character piece that errs heavily on “less is more,” saying more with what it doesn't say and leaving much to the viewer’s interpretation and self-insertion, which given the fourth wall break at the end, is all too fitting. And I think that’s a proper sendoff for a narrative told through the interactive medium of videogames.


A definite GOTY contender, and a once-in-a-generation sort of title. Picking between this and Bloodborne will be tough… I guess Metal Gear Online and The Old Hunters will be deciding factors.


- N Has Come To


P.S. Mission 28 (“Code Talker”) is probably one of my favorite levels in videogames. Perfect trifecta of boss battle, infiltration and extraction, with a nice exposition dump in the middle. The sniper Skulls are awesome and the level design is inspired. Very replayable. Love this level! I also keep replaying OKB Zero, attempting a perfect run, something I never felt compelled to do before in MGS.

P.P.S. The vocal cord parasites. Metallic archaea. Wolbachia. Copulation. Infertile. The Diné. Bilagáana. An ethnic liberator... burger?

P.P.P.S. Boss, get down! The enemy sniper...

P.P.P.P.S. You gonna extract him?

P.P.P.P.P.S. WHOOOOOOOOO?!
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Absolutely agree with you about everything here.
 
JayEH said:
"you're only going to kill a man"

I wish lines like that didn't get cut. I really didn't like how skullface died. He was so helpless and died pathetically. Compare that to the other MGS villains who had more "honorable" deaths. Instead he gets crushed by his metal gear and played with before Huey comes in. It would have been nice to have an epic fight with him (like every other MGS villain). And with a line like the one I posted it would make him seem not human (which is what Kojima built him up as).
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Skull Face's ending is perfect, IMO. A recurring theme in the game is the restlessness you feel when you've had your revenge but you still feel unfulfilled. It's one of the many forms that "phantom pain" takes in the game. Skull Face's unceremonious death lacks a certain drama and works better for it. They quietly leave him to suffer, since that's how they want to imagine him — forever suffering. They don't even give him the decency of a mercy killing. But then Huey steps in and, being the spineless lil' shit he is, kicks a man while he's down. If it had been Big Boss trapped under the girder, Huey would've done the same thing.

Either way, the end result is the same for the Diamond Dogs. They've achieved peace in the sense that the threat is gone, but they have not achieved personal peace. Far from it. Instead they have a perpetual state of unease, with paranoia and witch-hunts, punctuated by the occasional tragedy. I see Ch. 2 as a short story collection of life at Mother Base after Skull Face is gone and they no longer have a "face" to focus their anger. Ch. 2 is the life Venom achieved for himself after Skull Face and prior to learning the "truth" and the folly of his entire struggle.
 
There are moments where the game's story seemingly overcomes some of the issues of the writing, and manages to almost invoke some genuine emotion.

Quiet may be a terribly written character, but her departure was somewhat moving thanks to the strong music.

The scene where you give the war children their friends dying memento was another. Watching them just silently accept his fate was one of the few moments that really tied into the theme of losing one's voice/words well. Though it was somewhat undermined by Venom taking out a cigar to smoke afterwards. Seriously, what the hell Venom?

Conversely, some people have told me the scene where you have put down your infected troops got to them. Personally, they weren't characters, so I felt nothing. I knew I could go out and replace them as easily as I got them, so what difference did it make?
 
Eppy Thatcher said:
"Diva Bitch detected."

slayed me.

Goin for a 2nd playthrough now on my daughters PS4 account and i'm gonna keep that butterfly emblem on just for the access to quiets outpost lullaby abilities.
Totally going for all of the Quiet batshit crazy cutscenes though. And a pretty pink emblem for my little girl.
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Yeah, I can't hear the iDroid now without seeing/hearing "diva bitch detected/woman with enormous breasts detected/inappropriate question detected/you have been removed" etc

I did the same thing you're doing for the same reasons. It's all bliss now.
 
Apparently Skull Face's fight was cut for a reason (per Metal Gear Wiki):

According to Hideo Kojima's notes in the Piggyback Collector's Edition Guide's art gallery, Skull Face's role is that, while he is indeed the story's villain and antagonist, his character is not simply about Good and Evil: He has lost something, which results in him suffering from the phantom pain. He also states that his absence will leave the player with a sense of lasting phantom pain. He also explains in the same source that the reason he doesn't have a standard boss battle is to further promote the theme of a chain of revenge, a phantom pain, the continuous chain that one experiences when a target of vengeance is gone, something that would not have been possible via a standard boss fight, unlike most stories where good vs. evil encounters are given in Hollywood movies to satisfy the audience.
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