I've just accepted the fact that the story is an unfinished mess that just doesn't make much sense at this point.
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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
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I've just accepted the fact that the story is an unfinished mess that just doesn't make much sense at this point.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
I sort of really liked how Chapter 1 one went concluded... and Skull Face in general. The central base camp and then devil's factory scenes were intense, and OKB and the drive to the power facility was great, and I thought how he died, Venom shot his limbs, but then his phantom appears during that final scene at Mother Base was well done... sort of haunting, a lingering effect. Fitting actually for his final rant and then Miller's quote. And that final scene in general at Mother Base, coming off the heli and standing in front of Sahelanthropus... I was riding a Diamond Dogs high.
But in hindsight after Chapter 2, felt that Man on Fire was wasted and Eli was just silly (even by MGS standards), Liquid or not.... Two kids with super powers seemingly hijack 30 missions of resourceful planning and scheming 'just because,' felt like his constant coincidences (just happens to be found, just happens to stow away on the helicopter) and I-Win buttons trivialize Venom Snake's accomplishments and Skull Face's machinations.
But in hindsight after Chapter 2, felt that Man on Fire was wasted and Eli was just silly (even by MGS standards), Liquid or not.... Two kids with super powers seemingly hijack 30 missions of resourceful planning and scheming 'just because,' felt like his constant coincidences (just happens to be found, just happens to stow away on the helicopter) and I-Win buttons trivialize Venom Snake's accomplishments and Skull Face's machinations.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Here's my take, fwiw.
I see where you're coming from, and I don't disagree. It didn't make sense at the time, either. But looking back, maybe it was one of those weird "I'm your shadow and I have a certain relationship with you, so we're going to work this out on our own terms" type of deal. I'm reminded of the villains in just about every Bond movie. It doesn't make practical sense from the villain's standpoint, but for whatever reason it's a trope that keeps coming back.
Like, yeah, Skull Face could've killed Snake just by having Sahelanthropus squeeze him. He didn't need to leave him to the Skulls, but he did. We can only assume that like the various madmen who don't shoot Bond when they have the chance, it's cathartic for Skull Face to deal with his foe in this way.
I think there's a yin and yang factor to Skull Face and Snake (maybe that was the intent of the upside-down scene) where they're diametrically opposed but still understand each other in a way that only people from that walk of life could.
For that reason, while the jeep scene is silly, it still worked for me in a way. I also didn't just stare at the back of the jeep. When that music kicked in, I moved the camera dramatically.
I think both of these things indicate a lot more of you making your own story out of the pieces Metal Gear Solid V leaves than anything else.
Like, not as an insult, whether interpretation is a good thing or not is up to you, but I feel like I just see a bad seen and you see something nonsensical as fitting into the grander tapestry somehow.
Exactly. I really like how this game handled the folly of revenge. Eye for eye, limb for limb... The whole point is there's no satisfaction to be had in it.
If you complete the Paz subplot before Huey's trial and exile, it works nicely since the fifth Paz tape is essentially Venom's heart urging him to be merciful. She says how he can kill Skull Face, Huey and Zero, but it won't bring back the dead, it won't achieve any good.
I like to think that Venom sparing Huey is not simply his more benevolent nature, but him internalizing that message of mercy he realized from his vision of Paz. It's Venom moving toward a truer "peace."
I count Ground Zeroes as being part of Phantom Pain (it was originally intended to be 1 game too)...so if Ground Zeroes is the prequel and then you get around 38 Main Missions that seems pretty big to me...the 'Chapters' title is insignificant...the only 'evidence' I've seen of cut content is the leaked Mission 51 that was part of the PS4 special edition...you do realize that a ton of movie trailers show scenes that never make it into the final cut right?...they are under no obligation to show every scene that was in the trailers in the game...it's called editing...plus no one knows why it was cut...maybe Kojima made the decision because he felt Eli's ending as is was fine...we know he continues on as Liquid Snake so do you really need every moment of his life to be documented in the game?
him flying off with Sahelanthropus was honestly fine for me...Mission 51 looked great but does it really answer any more questions or provide any more closure then the actual ending on Mother Base?...in the end of Mission 51 he still flies off with the Third Child and his whereabouts are unknown...it makes no difference...sometimes it's better to use your imagination to fill in the blanks versus having everything spelled out for you
as far as the Fox Engine...CryEngine was a fantastic engine that barely got used...just because you have a great engine doesn't guarantee anything
Here's my take, fwiw.
I see where you're coming from, and I don't disagree. It didn't make sense at the time, either. But looking back, maybe it was one of those weird "I'm your shadow and I have a certain relationship with you, so we're going to work this out on our own terms" type of deal. I'm reminded of the villains in just about every Bond movie. It doesn't make practical sense from the villain's standpoint, but for whatever reason it's a trope that keeps coming back.
Like, yeah, Skull Face could've killed Snake just by having Sahelanthropus squeeze him. He didn't need to leave him to the Skulls, but he did. We can only assume that like the various madmen who don't shoot Bond when they have the chance, it's cathartic for Skull Face to deal with his foe in this way.
I think there's a yin and yang factor to Skull Face and Snake (maybe that was the intent of the upside-down scene) where they're diametrically opposed but still understand each other in a way that only people from that walk of life could.
For that reason, while the jeep scene is silly, it still worked for me in a way. I also didn't just stare at the back of the jeep. When that music kicked in, I moved the camera dramatically.
Yeah I don't really buy that, he planted two bombs in Paz just to be sure to take BB and her out in GZ.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
his wife fucks his son and he commits suicide in his pool....
ocelot and snake were right, and miller would be satisfied
No offense taken. I know you're being honest in your take of what you didn't see in the story. And I'm being honest in what I -did- see, pointing out the dialogue, the events, the framing of the shots, etc.
Really, the whole yin-yang deal seems copped straight from the end of The Dark Knight, where the same upside-down shot was done with Batman and the Joker. Skull Face himself later says he and Snake are two sides of the same coin (using more or less that exact wording). I think it's pretty evident that the idea is there's a certain relationship there, based simply on their background as FOX and XOF, and that's why Skull Face doesn't simply kill him.
It's not an original idea in adventure stories. It's kind of cliche, really.
But why would there be? Skull Face is a ghost of a character. I never felt threatened or angered by him. He's just this sort of pathetic burned man who likes to be dramatic.
I mean, it's nice to have lofty concepts about revenge and phantom limbs, but if there's no emotional content, what's up?
ShockingAlberto
Member
Part of what makes the yin-yang thing feel hollow is Skull Face going "I have been with you through Snake Eater, following you through Peace Walker," etc. But it'd be like if a villain came up in Batman and was like "Yeah I was actually just following you from behind for the last sixty years. Crazy, huh?" and then dies.
Also it feels REAL hollow because a little plastic surgery and he can't tell that's not Boss despite intimately studying him for decades. You are the head of an intelligence unit, man.
Also it feels REAL hollow because a little plastic surgery and he can't tell that's not Boss despite intimately studying him for decades. You are the head of an intelligence unit, man.
Yea that's the real issue I had with it. The game tries to make you feel like the entire drive is based on revenge with Miller saying the word in every other line but I had no burning desire to kill Skull Face. I didn't play Peace Walker, but even still Skull Face doesn't have enough of a presence to engender such strong feelings.
ShockingAlberto
Member
And man, I super do not appreciate how Skull Face's existence diminishes Operation Snake Eater.
LOL
Goes back to the inherent issue of making Venom a body double. He has no actual history with anyone. Not even as the Medic, because the Medic is an extra in the crowd with no life or background of his own. As far as we're concerned, on an emotional level, he zapped into existence inside Morpho.
Hands of Stone
Member
lol, Skully can't catch a break.
WrenchNinja
Member
Funny story, Grant Morrison actually did create a villain like that who followed Batman around in the shadows throughout his exploits through Dr. Hurt. There was this long saga with this character spanning years and years. And he was underwhelming throughout it. He ended up dying by slipping on a banana peel by the Joker.
Scott Snyder did something similar with the Court of Owls a couple of years ago.
Well that does fit with the larger through line of Big Boss being a manufactured legend and Operation Snake Eater was already a sham in the first place. It feels lazy to insert him into it when he clearly never existed when MGS3 was around but Kojima really likes the idea of "truth is but an interpretation man~".
Makes me wonder how much of MGS3 he actually wrote. You'd think when an artist of his kind writes a masterpiece, he'd have some level of respect for it.
It's like.. maybe he was just responsible for the concepts, the general story, and someone else breathed life into it.
It's not even clear wtf he was doing during Operation Snake Eater either.
Skullface was a wasted opportunity, like every other character in this game really. He basically just comes out of nowhere in GZ and then you see him once in that honeybee mission and then he abruptly dies in a incredible lackluster way right after you actually meet and confront him (not really confront, sit and listen to him while he talks in the jeep).
That's true. But it's been nine years. Zero had a change of heart in that time. Not saying Skull Face did, too. I agree Skull Face's motivations in sparing Snake in Ch. 6 should've been made more clear.
Then it didn't work for you.A-V-B said:
Me personally, I'm somewhere in the middle when it comes to how the game conveyed the thirst for revenge.
I started out really despising Skull Face, based on what he made Paz and Chico do in Ground Zeroes. I was horrified by what he was doing with the invalids in Africa, but the effect was neutered somewhat since he only appears briefly in that scene. I think an extra beat showing his coldness would've made him feel more "evil."
By the end, I found Skull Face more "endearing" than "loathsome." I say this based on his theatricality -- his manner of speaking, his hand gestures. His deeds are reprehensible of course, but the tone is dampened by how silly he can be.
That being said, I didn't lose sight of why Venom and Kaz were mad. I still remembered the sight of Mother Base sinking into the sea. I could understand why they were chomping at the bit for revenge.
Yet when you see how pathetic and helpless Skull Face looks in his final moments... You could tell it sucked the wind out of Venom's sails. Kaz still went in and blew off some limbs, but it was a bitter pill for him to swallow. Not the feel-good moment he had imagined...
And ultimately, I like that point. Like you, I didn't necessarily feel the burning desire for revenge that the characters had. The game could've done better in that respect. But I like the idea of how revenge is an exercise in futility. It adds another body to the pile. Brings no one back. Provides no real closure.
Berserker976
Member
I might be missing something in the truth tapes or some such, but I have a question:
Why did the hospital get raided when Venom woke up? I mean, Big Boss and Venom had been in that hospital for 9 years in a coma, why is it that it only gets raided after they wake up?
Why does it get raided at all? Was it a controlled leak? If so, who leaked that information to XOF, and why?
I just don't get why XOF was there.
Why did the hospital get raided when Venom woke up? I mean, Big Boss and Venom had been in that hospital for 9 years in a coma, why is it that it only gets raided after they wake up?
Why does it get raided at all? Was it a controlled leak? If so, who leaked that information to XOF, and why?
I just don't get why XOF was there.
Plot device so you could be fooled into thinking Boss was your imaginary buddy.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
XOF was there *because* BB/venom woke up, Skullface couldn't give a lesser shit when he was in a coma, probably thought of him as a non-threat during that time.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Regarding Sahelanthropus coming from out of nowhere without being seen, Kid Mantis can make it fly and drop down from orbit. Like when you were extracting Huey and there was a sparkle in the sky above Pequod which turned out to be Sahelanthropus doing a halo jump. Kid Mantis is the most ridiculously overpowered character in the entire MGS universe and he might just be the one thing I hate the most about MGSV.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I guess it is to explain how Code Talker got the bodies of The End, The Pain, and The Fear.
Which, now that I think about it, also does not make much sense because the Cobra Unit all had bombs inside them. You can look around all you want, their bodies are gone after defeat.
Zero: "Your codename will be Naked Snake because you'll be all on your own under your mission in Russia. No back-up, no nothing. If you or any other american operator is spotted we'll have a major political crisis on our hands."
20 years later
Skullface: "Oh btw, I was actually part of the XOF force. Y'know, the guys that cleaned up after you in Operation Snake Eater! Not sure why Zero never told you about that, don't see how that information was needed to be classified to you as you were the 'sole' operator on that mission... oh well!"
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
He's scraping their parts off the jungle floor.
Berserker976
Member
I dunno, that doesn't make any sense. Are you saying XOF/Skull Face knew exactly where he was the whole time and only decided to kill him after he woke up and was a threat? Why? What possible reason would have have for not killing him while he was in the coma?
I was under the impression that XOF only found out about where BB/Venom was when they woke up.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
The way that doctor makes it sound "you shouldn't even be awake" and "people are coming to kill you" makes it sound like it got a lot of people's attention WHEN he woke up.
There's multiple ways to read it I guess.
Everything starts to blur together with this sort of thing but IIRC, BB waking up also (with the help of Mantis) awoke Volgin who started moving toward BB because of revenge. Skull Face notices this and figures out where BB from Volgin's path.
I wish real human motivations drove this story sometimes.
Like I said, I don't think a forced boss fight would have made his death any less lame. He would have died just the same way somehow, just like how Volgin in MGS3 dies by a lightning bolt and nothing the player does directly (other than, like I said before, the damage to get him to that point).
What would have fixed him is more appearances (even though he gets about as many cutscenes as Volgin does in MGS3 if you count Ground Zeroes) and then his ultimate demise wouldn't have felt as awful because you at least had more than 2-3 interactions with him. His death just happens with the way it's structured in the game and if he had one or two more scenes then it would have been fine.
I think has something to do with the complicated sequence of events that I'll probably get wrong if I try to recount them, but something to this effect:
The Third Child was flying over Cyprus and caused the plane to crash. Skull Face looked into this incident and learned about the Soviet experiments and how the Third Child responded to negativity. This made him search the area near the plane crash, only to find the boy had responded to the negativity of a waking Big Boss. This is how he discovered Big Boss. Remember there were several weeks between his waking and the attack.
Unfortunately for Skull Face and his XOF strike force, the Third Child (not yet in his command) came into close proximity with the Man on Fire, and as they explain in the tapes, the Third Child likes bringing two sources of animosity together. So while the XOF team was invading, the Third Child -also- showed up with the Man on Fire, looking to bring him near Big Boss (since Volgin hates Big Boss). This ends up killing the XOF team, of course. At some point later, Skull Face tracks down the Third Child and Man on Fire and exerts his -own- will over them, taking control with his own negativity toward Big Boss, Zero, and Western cultural imperialism.
...phew. Did I get it right?
SuperStiltzkin
Member
He was also supposed to continue Operation Snake Eater should Snake die. It's utterly stupid. With 3 games (if we're counting PO) between MGS3 and MGSV, this retcon feels unnecessary. Because Skull Face, despite saying how much he knows Snake from shadowing him through Snake Eater, seems to know absolutely nothing about Snake. Everything he says about Big Boss doesn't seem to match up at all with what we've seen of him. You're Big Boss' other half how exactly? Everything everyone says about Snake (both venom and naked) doesn't seem to match their characters. Kaz keeps telling Snake that he can tell that he wants revenge just as much as he does because he can feel immense Phantom Pain as well. And then Snake just stands there with blank expression completely vacant of any emotion and says "Kaz......let's go save some more kids and puppies." Venom never at any point comes off as angry or vengeful or anything. He doesn't seem to care that he lost an arm and a chunk of brain got displaced by devil shrapnel. He's just chill and completely detached from any situation going on around him.
Yeah but the player doesn't even do it. It's the metal gear stepping on him controlled by Mantis fueled by Eli's rage. The player just tortures him.
All the other mgs villains were bad but that doesn't mean I wanted liquid accidentally stepped on by Rex or the shagohod running over Volgin. This is the first metal gear game where we don't get a 1 on 1 fight with the villain.
I guess my real disappointment just comes at the lack of a boss fight (or any really final boss).
KyanMehwulfe
Member
I thought it was not Mantis waking up Big Boss, but vice versa... Big Boss (or was it Venom lol I'm not sure which caused it) waking up (and that sudden surge of rage) is what triggered Mantis' to cause the explosion in his airliner... remember, Mantis doesn't actually act on his own, he never does anything himself. He's just a conduit for things near him. Everything he does is just a sort of embodiment of someone else's rage. So, that's why he's drawn to Skull Face and Skull Face makes him operate Sahelanthropus the first time. Or, he doesn't bring Eli to Sahelanthropus -- that's just a coincidence. It's just once he senses him, Eli's rage is stronger then Volgin's, so Mantis is drawn like a moth or something to Eli and abandons Volgin.
I've been recently reading some of this thread and this is what seems to me.
That, and also the lack of a central real enemy, since skull face doesn't quite live up to the gratest and baddest villain.
For me, the the real enemy this whole time was the amount of revenge built up around those close to Ahab, that's all..
FlashbladeGAF
Member
They used the engine for PES before MGSV's release as well as for PT (Silent Hills reveal demo). They were using it for the present and the future. Kojima was VP of Konami Digital. He invested for the future and it was just beginning to payoff.
I also count Ground Zeroes
No one is saying Mission 51 would wrap up every thread in the story. It's the only cut content we were given that proves how important the cut content was to the story and not some trivial thing to be left on the cutting room floor.
In your mind, Eli gets away and becomes Liquid. But he has the English strain and Sahlantropus sitting in his garage. This man who is so angry about his birth goes out of his way to steal a nuculear weapon and a Metal Gear when he has a better more advance Metal Gear sitting in his garage that Psycho Mantis can control (because it won't work otherwise) and a bio weapon that could take out the western world. That doesn't seem like a major plot hole to you?
I don't know how much more cut content is out there, but going off of how important the cut content we did find is, Kojima's own words, Peace Walker's identical story structure and Kojima's track record of releasing a complete story arc in every single Metal Gear Solid title... The fact that he wasn't able to deliver a complete story arc now (when every game he's made had a proper beginning middle and ending) tells me that he had more to give us.
Even if we might not have thought it was perfect.
Berserker976
Member
Impressive effort, but... the bolded is still pretty important missing information. Also, this explanation really brings home how absurd it is that Skull Face used Mantis to control Sahelanthropus, even understanding that if someone nearby had a more powerful Lust For Revenge than him he'd instantly lose control. He made an unstable psychic child he just met a key piece of his plan. Way to think things through, Skull Face...
Well that's why he's so shocked, he underestimated pre-teen angst. That infamous scene is because he simply could not believe there is someone else more angsty than him.
And Skull Face's whole deal is that he was consumed by revenge to the point he was willing to kill everyone who spoke English just to get back at Zero and the people who took him. He was always pretty crazy.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
It was Big Boss waking up that triggered Volgin's rage to wake him up which caused Kid Mantis' plane. which happened to by flying overhead. to crash. Everything regarding Kid Mantis is all one big coincidence.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
It was the only way to control the Metal Gear. Sahelanthropus was way too advanced for it's time which is why Huey didn't understand how they could complete it (standing and moving around on 2 legs) without him (considering he himself couldn't figure out how to get it to work.
Skull Face also didn't know that child rage was stronger than man rage.
I guess kids have a closer connection to the spiritual, which is why kids are always seeing ghosts and shit.
Mantis was being controlled.
He wasn't necessarily saying Yes sir and No sir.
But Snake was on a motorcycle by the time Venom got out of the car.
It's not that farfetched that someone like Zero would've had more agents working on Operation Snake Eater than just Snake and the radio team. There was a lot at stake. (Like a bajillion dollars!) For that same reason, he kept some units classified. A trump card he could whip out if someone went rogue, etc.
And like others have said, I think the thematic point is, once again, Big Boss "the man" does not measure up to Big Boss "the myth." The myth, the legend, is manufactured. Many people contributed to his success; many people propagated (and exaggerated, and distorted) his legend, through word of mouth and indoctrination.
Big Boss' hard work and determination is still the lynchpin that ties it all together, but his success is still a product of circumstance, timing, etc.
All of that aside, I think the whole point of Skull Face's history is just to explain how he knows Zero and how he's cut from a similar cloth as Snake and the others. It's not essential, but I don't see how it's offensive, either.
And like others have said, I think the thematic point is, once again, Big Boss "the man" does not measure up to Big Boss "the myth." The myth, the legend, is manufactured. Many people contributed to his success; many people propagated (and exaggerated, and distorted) his legend, through word of mouth and indoctrination.
Big Boss' hard work and determination is still the lynchpin that ties it all together, but his success is still a product of circumstance, timing, etc.
All of that aside, I think the whole point of Skull Face's history is just to explain how he knows Zero and how he's cut from a similar cloth as Snake and the others. It's not essential, but I don't see how it's offensive, either.
So did both Bosses wake up around the same time after 9 years? Talk about a coincidence.
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