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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

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Excellent point. Not sure why I forgot MGS2. MGS2 pretty much establishes the concept of "anyone can be BB, genes or not." MGSV is merely continuing it.


It actually means nothing according to MGS2, as I was just reminded in the post above. :-P

MGSV is just continuing the idea started in MGS2.

Actually I think you guys have this backwards. The message of MGS2 was that you weren't Solid Snake just because you played as him in video games. Raiden begins the game by claiming he's just like Snake because he's played lots of video games, and ends the game by rejecting the notion that he's Snake, and accepts that he needs to be his own person.

MGS2's message is the polar opposite of MGSV.
 
Anyone else getting dinklebot-levels of phoning in from Kiefer when he actually talks? I would have preferred Peace Walker Hayter, at least he was entertaining. I would have preferred that over "Silent Snake".
 
I have no problem believing a medic could be an amazing soldier. There are medics on SEAL teams, Tier1 teams, SAS ect. ect. ... I would hazard a guess and say that many of the most elite soldiers/teams on the planet all HAVE to have some introductory level of first aid/medicine before they are allowed on the team. He could easily have been in med school before joining whatever local para military group that BB yanked him from with a balloon and taught the dude CQC just like all his other soldiers and so on and so forth...

That's realistic enough. That's viable. That is not what people are having trouble swallowing.

What is bullshit - and makes no sense given what we know of BB and even Snake/Liquid/Solidus (given they are genetic clones) is that this rank and file everyday soldier who you at one point knocked the fuck out and hitched a balloon to his pants, could adequately fill the role of Big fucking Boss. The Legendary/Heroic once in multiple life times kind of soldier. He has done AMAZING things, pushed his mind and body beyond what normal men and women could ever dream. There is a reason behind soldiers who have never met the man, are actively working for the other side and don't even speak his language adore the man and fall into his employ without much convincing.

It's because BB is supposed to be the iconic ideal and zenith of what a soldier is capable of. He is legendary. He's Big. Fucking. Boss.

But apparently... so am I and so are you. And so is that jerkass from my high school who never brushed his teeth. And so is this completely un-important and completely unknown soldier.

It's fucking lazy and stupid.

But yes - medics go on missions. You've got that point going for you.

edit:
That was the message of MGS2. Raiden is unrelated to Solid Snake and became his equal. I believe it.

Pump. Those. Brakes. :D
 
Anyone else getting dinklebot-levels of phoning in from Kiefer when he actually talks? I would have preferred Peace Walker Hayter, at least he was entertaining. I would ahve preferred that over "Silent Snake".

Definitely. Kiefer mumbling every line was boring as fuck.
 
Actually I think you guys have this backwards. The message of MGS2 was that you weren't Solid Snake just because you played as him in video games. Raiden begins the game by claiming he's just like Snake because he's played lots of video games, and ends the game by rejecting the notion that he's Snake, and accepts that he needs to be his own person.

MGS2's message is the polar opposite of MGSV.
I feel like this is all semantics from a practical standpoint.

What I mean is, whether it's BB or Solid or Venom or Raiden, they all rise to greatness through force of will. After all, only two of those four characters share any genetic relations, and even then it's only an imperfect match (and yet the imperfect one bests the original).

It seems clear that one of the overarching messages to the series is BB wasn't special because he was born with good genes.

He was special because of his spirit. And so were the heroes who followed, whether they were blood relatives or all.

I think it cheapens BB to say it's just his genes that make him great. His genes are irrelevant at the end of the day. It's the caliber of his character that carries him.
 
In this perilous photo, Skull Face finds one of the downsides of backing up Naked Snake.

NjxqTQO.jpg


After Operation "Skull Eater", Zero included industrial-grade repellent in the loadout of every XOF agent.
 
Actually I think you guys have this backwards. The message of MGS2 was that you weren't Solid Snake just because you played as him in video games. Raiden begins the game by claiming he's just like Snake because he's played lots of video games, and ends the game by rejecting the notion that he's Snake, and accepts that he needs to be his own person.

MGS2's message is the polar opposite of MGSV.
Exacto-mondo. Anyone can be Big Boss but no one can be Solid Snake,



SS>BB
 
I'd say it's there in the material (Kaz's disillusionment, Venom punching the mirror, etc) but it's light compared to what it should've been. It has huge implications for how BB is changing and what he's willing to do, so it should've received a more direct focus. Ultimately, I'm still OK with the lighter approach, but the way BB misused Venom is the one area I wish received more exploration.
Those are two moments where we see how other characters feel about what BB did, but those don't show us anything about BB's character. The fact is we left the experience not really knowing why he made his single biggest decision in the game. That's poor characterization.
 
Anyone else getting dinklebot-levels of phoning in from Kiefer when he actually talks? I would have preferred Peace Walker Hayter, at least he was entertaining. I would ahve preferred that over "Silent Snake".

Thought he was fantastic. And as far as the silent stuff goes, venom isn't big boss so he isn't going to be chatty. Notice how the real big boss won't shut up in the prologue?

In this perilous photo, Skull Face finds one of the downsides of backing up Naked Snake.

NjxqTQO.jpg


After Operation "Skull Eater", Zero included industrial-grade repellent in the loadout of every XOF agent.

Hahahaha. Best one so far.
 
I'm going back to PhythonSelkan's theory videos.
Good god Hahahahahah they were right. Has every GAFer should eaten crow yet?

Thought he was fantastic. And as far as the silent stuff goes, venom isn't big boss so he isn't going to be chatty. Notice how the real big boss won't shut up in the prologue?
Yeah I just thought about this too. Pretty cool tbh. I guess the silent protag thing worked out well.
 
I have no problem believing a medic could be an amazing soldier. There are medics on SEAL teams, Tier1 teams, SAS ect. ect. ... I would hazard a guess and say that many of the most elite soldiers/teams on the planet all HAVE to have some introductory level of first aid/medicine before they are allowed on the team. He could easily have been in med school before joining whatever local para military group that BB yanked him from with a balloon and taught the dude CQC just like all his other soldiers and so on and so forth...

That's realistic enough. That's viable. That is not what people are having trouble swallowing.

What is bullshit - and makes no sense given what we know of BB and even Snake/Liquid/Solidus (given they are genetic clones) is that this rank and file everyday soldier who you at one point knocked the fuck out and hitched a balloon to his pants, could adequately fill the role of Big fucking Boss. The Legendary/Heroic once in multiple life times kind of soldier. He has done AMAZING things, pushed his mind and body beyond what normal men and women could ever dream. There is a reason behind soldiers who have never met the man, are actively working for the other side and don't even speak his language adore the man and fall into his employ without much convincing.

It's because BB is supposed to be the iconic ideal and zenith of what a soldier is capable of. He is legendary. He's Big. Fucking. Boss.

But apparently... so am I and so are you. And so is that jerkass from my high school who never brushed his teeth. And so is this completely un-important and completely unknown soldier.

It's fucking lazy and stupid.

But yes - medics go on missions. You've got that point going for you.
You can look at it that way, or you can ask, "Well, what's to keep other soldiers from doing what BB does?" Maybe they lack the ability... or maybe they simply think they can't do those things, so they don't. Maybe Kojima's point is they can do those things if they think they can. Hence Raiden and Venom.
 
I feel like this is all semantics from a practical standpoint.

What I mean is, whether it's BB or Solid or Venom or Raiden, they all rise to greatness through force of will. After all, only two of those four characters share any genetic relations, and even then it's only an imperfect match (and yet the imperfect one bests the original).

It seems clear that one of the overarching messages to the series is BB wasn't special because he was born with good genes.

He was special because of his spirit. And so were the heroes who followed, whether they were blood relatives or all.

I think it cheapens BB to say it's just his genes that make him great. His genes are irrelevant at the end of the day. It's the caliber of his character that carries him.

And such caliber can be inserted via Ocelot's hypnotic gun twirling and some surgery. Why in the holy hell would you not create a literal army of BBs?

because it's not just about wanting something. The world doesn't bend to your will and learn to fear your name because you dream big. You have to have lived a life that tempers you into the weapon BB became. You do - in fact - need the years of training, hardship, insanity and self reflection that BB had to be a legend on the level that he is.
As well as buff as shit. And tough as nails. And oh so gruff sexy for when the super spying needs to start.

The idea that just anyone could reach BB's level of skill and technique and bravery and zen like war murder ability... cheapens him. The game doesn't even need to be MGSV if that's the case. What's the point? Just make it about some random soldier in MSF working for Boss and move on. But no... we had to take a chainsaw to the glory and legend of one of our most loved characters in the series.

Gotcha. Thanks Koj. You fuckin prankster you.

You can look at it that way, or you can ask, "Well, what's to keep other soldiers from doing what BB does?" Maybe they lack the ability... or maybe they simply think they can't do those things, so they don't. Maybe Kojima's point is they can do those things if they think they can. Hence Raiden and Venom.

So if the only thing keeping them back is some NeverEnding story "Be CONFIDENT" bullshit - and almost ANY soldier really can be a Big Boss... again ... why would Big Boss be special in any way whatsoever?

and if that was actually true - Zero, The boss, Volgin, Liquid and every other villain in the game ever would have been hypnotizing soldiers into believing they were invincible godlike war machines a long godamned time ago.

But it's not supposed to be that way. The Boss, BB, Snake... these guys don't just want it.. they live lives dedicated to warfare. It comes across as just weak reasoning. Clap if you believe kind of bullshit. Imagine your better life and it will come to you, send out positive vibes and the universe sends good luck close your eyes and enVision the solution you want and it will come to you!! hippy dippy bullshit.
 
I feel like this is all semantics from a practical standpoint.

What I mean is, whether it's BB or Solid or Venom or Raiden, they all rise to greatness through force of will. After all, only two of those four characters share any genetic relations, and even then it's only an imperfect match (and yet the imperfect one bests the original).

It seems clear that one of the overarching messages to the series is BB wasn't special because he was born with good genes.

He was special because of his spirit. And so were the heroes who followed, whether they were blood relatives or all.

I think it cheapens BB to say it's just his genes that make him great. His genes are irrelevant at the end of the day. It's the caliber of his character that carries him.

I didn't mean to imply that Big Boss' genes were the only thing that made him special, but that they were at the very least an important part of who he was. And I don't agree with your assertion that all of these hero characters rose above due to force of will. Venom didn't. He didn't have a will of his own, they just grafted Big Boss' onto him. At the start of MGS2 Raiden doesn't, it's part of his arc that he recognizes the need to break away from his "programming" and become his own man.

And now that I've thought about this for a bit...

MGSV:

-Cheapens MGS1 by undermining the idea of Big Boss' genetic uniqueness

-Directly contradicts MGS2's message to the player

-Cheapens MGS3 by explaining Skull Face was integral to Naked Snake's success

-Creates a bunch of plot holes that had been paved over in MGS4

-Kills, ignores, or radically changes all the characters from Peace Walker

MGSV is kind of just a giant "fuck you" to the series
 
Those are two moments where we see how other characters feel about what BB did, but those don't show us anything about BB's character. The fact is we left the experience not really knowing why he made his single biggest decision in the game. That's poor characterization.
I agree. The lack of insight into BB's thoughts on this is my main critique of a story I otherwise thought was solid.
 
Thought he was fantastic. And as far as the silent stuff goes, venom isn't big boss so he isn't going to be chatty. Notice how the real big boss won't shut up in the prologue?

Big Boss is completely out of character in the prologue, all of a sudden he turns into Solid Snake. SS was a sarcastic, badass who routinely spouted off cliche' one liners. BB was a very "serious" soldier, he didn't joke around or mouth off one liners. In fact, he showed a lot of respect towards his enemies and never made fun of them. And yet, the first thing he says in the prologue is "I gave her a light, she took the short way down."

The fuck? Since when does BB enjoy making light of murder?
 
In this perilous photo, Skull Face finds one of the downsides of backing up Naked Snake.

NjxqTQO.jpg


After Operation "Skull Eater", Zero included industrial-grade repellent in the loadout of every XOF agent.

This is the best one so far. It's the hat that makes it great.
 
Big Boss is completely out of character in the prologue, all of a sudden he turns into Solid Snake. SS was a sarcastic, badass who routinely spouted off cliche' one liners. BB was a very "serious" soldier, he didn't joke around or mouth off one liners. In fact, he showed a lot of respect towards his enemies and never made fun of them. And yet, the first thing he says in the prologue is "I gave her a light, she took the short way down."

The fuck? Since when does BB enjoy making light of murder?

I was just pointing out that there's a reason that venom is near silent and it had nothing to do with kiefer voicing the character.
 
Big Boss is completely out of character in the prologue, all of a sudden he turns into Solid Snake. SS was a sarcastic, badass who routinely spouted off cliche' one liners. BB was a very "serious" soldier, he didn't joke around or mouth off one liners. In fact, he showed a lot of respect towards his enemies and never made fun of them. And yet, the first thing he says in the prologue is "I gave her a light, she took the short way down."

The fuck? Since when does BB enjoy making light of murder?

What...the fuck? I think you're remembering completely different characters here.
 
tbh this is kinda why Kojima needs to move on from MGS. I mean, this body double idea could've been great in a new series, but having it and messing with things in a long running series like MGS...eh.
 
I will say - If Kojima's main goal with this game was to paint BB in the worst possible light then I suppose he kind of accomplished that.

A legendary hero with his own morals and codes who tells the world to piss off and he's gonna do things his way

- Turns into -

a completely normal no-show to his own game who not only isn't unique or special or really singularly talented in any way apart from "Can shoot a gun, also went to boot camp" who sells out and mutilates his "best man" and ditches his best friend to be cut to pieces in the desert so he can smoke cubans and pick up chics on his Indian.

Works i guess. (shuts garage, starts car)
 
And such caliber can be inserted via Ocelot's hypnotic gun twirling and some surgery. Why in the holy hell would you not create a literal army of BBs?

because it's not just about wanting something. The world doesn't bend to your will and learn to fear your name because you dream big. You have to have lived a life that tempers you into the weapon BB became. You do - in fact - need the years of training, hardship, insanity and self reflection that BB had to be a legend on the level that he is.
As well as buff as shit. And tough as nails. And oh so gruff sexy for when the super spying needs to start.

The idea that just anyone could reach BB's level of skill and technique and bravery and zen like war murder ability... cheapens him. The game doesn't even need to be MGSV if that's the case. What's the point? Just make it about some random soldier in MSF working for Boss and move on. But no... we had to take a chainsaw to the glory and legend of one of our most loved characters in the series.

Gotcha. Thanks Koj. You fuckin prankster you.
We don't know what experiences the medic had previously. Only the likelihood that he had skill since he was with BB on his most personal mission. But I think this series has generally sided with the idea that fighting spirit trumps all. Obviously strength and stamina and such plays a role, but an indomitable will is ultimately what makes the man.

I didn't mean to imply that Big Boss' genes were the only thing that made him special, but that they were at the very least an important part of who he was. And I don't agree with your assertion that all of these hero characters rose above due to force of will. Venom didn't. He didn't have a will of his own, they just grafted Big Boss' onto him. At the start of MGS2 Raiden doesn't, it's part of his arc that he recognizes the need to break away from his "programming" and become his own man.
Raiden breaking away from his programming is force of will. The programming is his training, not what makes him "work." And Venom thought he was Big Boss, but he was still, at his core, his own man. I certainly don't think his personality matches 1:1 with the real BB. The difference in tone between Ishmael and Ahab is day and night.

Ultimately, it was Venom out on the field, in life-and-death situations, suffering from injury and the elements, etc. He had to reach down inside himself and pull out what it takes to persevere.

Which again, is the whole point: Force of will. Not genes.

Beserker976 said:
And now that I've thought about this for a bit...

MGSV:

-Cheapens MGS1 by undermining the idea of Big Boss' genetic uniqueness

-Directly contradicts MGS2's message to the player

-Cheapens MGS3 by explaining Skull Face was integral to Naked Snake's success

-Creates a bunch of plot holes that had been paved over in MGS4

-Kills, ignores, or radically changes all the characters from Peace Walker

MGSV is kind of just a giant "fuck you" to the series
I agree with you on PW (although I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing). Not sure what you're thinking about MGS4.

With MGS3, I think it just makes BB a bit more human. What he did is still incredible -- but it turns out there was more to the legend. As is always the case in real life. I can understand your disappointment if you prefer BB the Superman. It seems many people do.

As for origins, as explored in MGS1 and MGS2... I don't know. Seems consistent to me. All three characters (Solid, Raiden, Venom) have some background that gives them a baseline of skill. But at the end of the day they carve their own paths with their own wills. Even Venom, who starts in service to BB, goes his own way at the end, and since he thinks he can, he proves himself an equally capable "Big Boss."
 
Anyone else incredibly sad not only at the lost potential of this game, but a future current gen only stealth game running on this engine? Imagine how many more gameplay systems they could realize if they had more computing power to work with.
 
Okay, so I just finally found the last photo for Paz in the medical bay hallway before getting to her room. So she wasn't really alive then? I mean I would be fine with that, but Ocelot and Miller walk into the room the first time you see Paz so that wouldn't make any sense. Unless they were also imagined to be there so you felt better about her death in GZ.
 
Unable to secure a second landing drone for the drop into Russian territory, Zero makes due. This photo, made possible by a jet fighter camera, shows Skull Face's bravery.

wdkNqMs.png
 
It's not even clear wtf he was doing during Operation Snake Eater either.

I don't get this . all we really know was that he was part of some kind of cleanup crew. Naked snake still killed all those super powered villains, defeated volgin, defeated joy etc single handedly. There's no evidence to think that skullface did anything more than CIA scrub jobs, removing evidence or something. Not sure why people are so upset about this. also not sure about how Venom snake supposedly cheapens big boss as a perfect genetic specimen or whatever. Especially since people are complaining that venom didn't do anything in V, have any agency or make any decisions or really do anything spectacular or legendary. Like....you can't have it both ways. Either he was an amazing double who did crazy significant things or he was a nobody that ran around afghanistan ballooning sheep. it can't be both.
 
Okay, so I just finally found the last photo for Paz in the medical bay hallway before getting to her room. So she wasn't really alive then? I mean I would be fine with that, but Ocelot and Miller walk into the room the first time you see Paz so that wouldn't make any sense. Unless they were also imagined to be there so you felt better about her death in GZ.
He hallucinated Paz, Ocelot, Kaz, the butterfly, even the room. If you rewatch the first Paz cutscene, Ocelot and Kaz show up immediately, which seems too convenient until you realize they were just figments of Venom's imagination.

It's ultimately his PTSD and guilt over Ground Zeroes, his memories of Paz and what she meant to him (the way he knew her), and him doing some soul-searching. The hallucination itself is the result of his horn pressing on his cerebrum.

One of my favorite parts in the game. Very well-done. The last Paz tape made me tear up in a way I haven't since BB's final words in MGS4.
 
Really? Please point out to me those times when Big Boss spouted one liners against enemy bosses and spoke sarcastically in 70% of his conversations.

The entire description is completely off about them. It's like I'm reading a summary about some other protagonist from a completely different franchise.
 
Okay, so I just finally found the last photo for Paz in the medical bay hallway before getting to her room. So she wasn't really alive then? I mean I would be fine with that, but Ocelot and Miller walk into the room the first time you see Paz so that wouldn't make any sense. Unless they were also imagined to be there so you felt better about her death in GZ.

It's all venom's hallucination. Ocelot and miller being there are part of that hallucination. That's the reason no one ever mentions that room or Paz outside of that one cutscene.
 
was he really that involved in snake eater?

i thought he was just sort of behind the scenes to "clean up" loose ends, a support role no different than sigint or para-medic... like, making anyone that may of saw too much/the wrong thin of the cobra unit or snake disappeared after that fact, making sure the right news story came out of the field, etc.. i'll have to listen to the tapes again but during mission 30 it seems pretty vague.
 
in the beginning of the game when you are given the choice of customizing your face, we are led to believe story-wise, this is the face you want to be after the plastic surgery?...and the doctor/nurse get killed before the surgery starts correct?...and at the end of the game we find out that this scene is happening after the plastic surgery already took place?

The surgery actually happened years before the game even begins; when Zero visits Big Boss two years after GZ, its already been done.
 
Honestly, the Medic twist might been better had the game owned it from the start. Even with all the hints and nudge nudges the game has towards it, the twist still manages to just be there at the end. You're suddenly revealed to not be Big Boss, but the game also doesn't want to take your accomplishments away so you're also Big Boss. Then it kind of just ends.

Have the player and Miller become in on it soon after rescuing him, but otherwise, Venom is still impersonating Big Boss throughout the game. Have the game actually end in Outer Heaven instead, with Venom and Big Boss reconciling before Operation N313 or something.

As for Skullface and MGS3, wasn't like the entire point of the operation to not be deniable? It's been a while.
 
It's all venom's hallucination. Ocelot and miller being there are part of that hallucination. That's the reason no one ever mentions that room or Paz outside of that one cutscene.
Putting Miller and Ocelot in really cheapens that reveal.

It's one thing to give it a twist, it's another to show evidence there's no twist and then put the twist in.

I like the sidequest overall, but that one part kind of sucks.
 
We don't know what experiences the medic had previously. Only the likelihood that he had skill since he was with BB on his most personal mission. But I think this series has generally sided with the idea that fighting spirit trumps all. Obviously strength and stamina and such plays a role, but an indomitable will is ultimately what makes the man.

This line of thought is i think where a lot of people like me have trouble following. Certainly an interpretation and if the legend of "SoldierX - Could be you or anyone!" is more interesting and such to you than "The story of Big Boss" i can see why you would enjoy the game a lot.

But - "an indomitable will" can certainly make a boy a man, a man a soldier and a soldier a legend.

But it shouldn't make you into a perfect stand in for Big Boss. The pinnacle. The peak. It simply shouldn't. When it does? when all you need is some training and some gumption? it means - as you say - literally anybody could become Big Boss. And if that were true.. cloning the man would be completely useless/pointless and making weird nanotech/parasite/mechanical soldiers to try and slow these Legends down would also be pointless.

Any special forces unit on the planet would simply brainwash their elite teams to feel no fear, be insanely confident in themselves and believe in the mission above all else.

In this world that MGSV has made... there should be Big Boss caliber soldiers EVERYWHERE. Every country. Every army. Ocelot should barely give two fucks about BB or Snake or Venom or whoever. Such a soldier is easy to make and point like a gun. Or a bullet.

Cheap.
 
He hallucinated Paz, Ocelot, Kaz, the butterfly, even the room. If you rewatch the first Paz cutscene, Ocelot and Kaz show up immediately, which seems too convenient until you realize they were just figments of Venom's imagination.

It's ultimately his PTSD and guilt over Ground Zeroes, his memories of Paz and what she meant to him (the way he knew her), and him doing some soul-searching. The hallucination itself is the result of his horn pressing on his cerebrum.

One of my favorite parts in the game. Very well-done. The last Paz tape made me tear up in a way I haven't since BB's final words in MGS4.

That's the first thing that came to mind. Just finished listening to the tape as well. Man, I wish the game had more moments like that. It was so well done.
 
It cheapens it because apparently Big Boss was nothing special, and his genetic legacy means absolutely nothing. You can just hypnotize any old schmuck to be the exact same thing.

How in the hell does MGSV not cheapen it?
That's literally one of the points of MGS2. The S3 program creates super soldiers out of specific conditioning.

MGS1 is about genetics being irrelevant to performance, and MGS2 is about mentality being all you need to reach that performance. Venom fits right into these themes.

Edit - Furthermore, the story of Big Boss as the greatest soldier is just that, a story. MGS4 had a line in act 3 by Eva that mentions how Big Boss's legend grew and was stretched beyond reality. MGSV is an example of how the legend was a farse. Big Boss is just a great soldier who defeated another great soldier, and got caught up in a ridiculous ideology feud with his commanding officer, and they ended up controlling the world for the next 60 years.
 
I don't get this . all we really know was that he was part of some kind of cleanup crew. Naked snake still killed all those super powered villains, defeated volgin, defeated joy etc single handedly. There's no evidence to think that skullface did anything more than CIA scrub jobs, removing evidence or something. Not sure why people are so upset about this.

Skullface being a part of Snake Eater is just plain stupid. For one, we saw how hard it was both times to insert just one man into Russia but now we're told Skullface, and presumably his team, managed to get in no problem? Second, only the Virtuous Mission would have needed a "cleanup" crew. That mission required the utmost secrecy and required that no evidence of an American presence be left behind. Which I think that Snake, a goddamn spy, was capable of doing on his own. Operation Snake Eater on the other hand required no such secrecy, in fact, we are actively encouraged to make our presence known to an extent to the Khrushev government. Again, the whole point of Snake Eater was to prove America's innocence by killing The Boss.
 
http://i.imgur.com/j694uRO.jpg

Really want this to have it's own thread; Where in the world was Skull Face during MGS3?

About a mile or two back with binoc of his own. Thereby we don't see him framed in the shot.

BOOM. Thread over.

I found him being back-up in MGS3 pretty stupid myself. Though him being like "well who do you think cleaned up after you" is pretty amusing in an explaining the game-logic of disappearing bodies way.
 
Okay, so I just finally found the last photo for Paz in the medical bay hallway before getting to her room. So she wasn't really alive then? I mean I would be fine with that, but Ocelot and Miller walk into the room the first time you see Paz so that wouldn't make any sense. Unless they were also imagined to be there so you felt better about her death in GZ.

The whole thing's a hallucination. The hospital room doesn't even exist. If you look at the geometry of the building from outside, you can see that every time Venom went through the door into Paz's room, he would have been walking out onto that balcony thing where he ends up after the last photo reveal. Basically, he was wigging out in the open air, in full view of every soldier on the Medical Platform, and nobody mentioned it :P
 
Putting Miller and Ocelot in really cheapens that reveal.

It's one thing to give it a twist, it's another to show evidence there's no twist and then put the twist in.

I like the sidequest overall, but that one part kind of sucks.

I thought of it as a necessary deception. It just shows how entrenched snake is in the fantasy and it's not too far fetched really. People have made themselves believe crazier things.
 
The surgery actually happened years before the game even begins; when Zero visits Big Boss two years after GZ, its already been done.

They said that during the tapes but then they talk about how "he's in no condition for plastic surgery" in mission 46.
 
Have the player and Miller become in on it soon after rescuing him, but otherwise, Venom is still impersonating Big Boss throughout the game. Have the game actually end in Outer Heaven instead, with Venom and Big Boss reconciling before Operation N313 or something.
I think Miller knows the entire time.. the tape between Ocelot and Miller must be before or shortly after the Prologue because Ocelot says he's going to self-hypnosis to forget about the Truth shortly after the Prologue... so he couldn't have that conversation with Miller later on. He also says that the first MB attack was 9 years ago so it couldn't have been much later than before/during the events of V, too (e.g. when Venom listens to the tape in Outer Heaven).

It would also explain why Miller is so extra vengeful and also intense toward Venom's success.... because he wants Big Boss, not just Skull Face, to go to hell. And why he wants Venom to succeed so much: to surpass Big Boss.
 
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