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[Eppy Thatcher]

The idea that the legend of Big Boss far surpasses the actual man behind the legend is a central plot point of the entire game that you seem to be missing. All those soldiers (and you) drank the kool aid that made Big Boss out to be super-human in some way, when in "reality" he's just a man with very good / special training (which he got from the boss, and which he taught you -- his best soldier -- as well as the rest of his soldiers) and the right mind-set to lead and excel on the battlefield (which has been hypno-parasite-machined-idevengaf into you)

..... except we play multiple games as Big Boss living up to that legend EXACTLY...

Also - Neit - I respect your opinion as well. You argue it very well and I can see the angle/idea you are taking from the story here. I have to disagree and i kind of reject the idea that i'm missing the point as exploding said of a grand central theme of Legends are Lies and Big Boss is like superman.
I absolute "get" what the game is trying to say in that regard. I also think it's completely fuckin stupid and meaningless given the context of the previous games.

And using Jack/Raiden as an example of someone persisting through "force of will" is kind of off point seeing as he was being trained, by Solidus, since he was a small child to be the perfect soldier. And then MGS2 was engineered to play out in a very specific way (shadow moses). What i reject in some of these interpretations is the idea that it doesn't matter who we play as... that we all become a big boss because our will to be a Big Boss i strong enough.

It's some placating backdoor cheap bs imo and minimizes and detracts from BBs story in a really shitty way.

I'm glad some people liked it because i was convinced after playing it that no one would.

But to say that the Legend of Big Boss ran away from the man and isn't realistic, that the soldiers and we "Drank the kool-aid" is kind of ridiculous.

We played 3. We played PW. We've seen what normal soldiers in this world look/act/fight like. And we've watched BB and his genetic progeny along with a perfectly engineered child soldier dropped into a pre-fabricated win scenerio and seen what THEY as soldiers can do and the disparity between these groups is vast.

But - i'm to swallow that he's not important. Not special. Just a dude like you or me who happens to want it more.

Nevermind child slaves and captured prisoners and revolutionaries and genetic freak assassins with plans for world domination and a viscious crazy streak. These people aren't up to the level of BB because they don't want it enough. They don't believe in themselves.

They aren't clapping hard enough? ...

fyi i love discussing this with you guys.

 

[MMarston]

 

[Neiteio]

it's incredibly cliched in Shonen manga. The underdog always prevail even though he's proven to be weaker. In this case the byline that proves snake is an underdog is that he has the inferior genes. And it works inverse with Liquid-Liquid BELIEVES he has weaker genes despite having the stronger ones(As shown by his 'terminator-esque' rampage at the end of MGS1, only to be stopped by FOXDIE.).

It's so damn silly but that's what the story is built upon. Solid Snake simply has willpower to come out on top. He was never plagued like Liquid-who thought he was inferior since his young age-that made him win.

Exactly.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

big boss got thrown a hundred feet into a raging river, half of his bones broken, was hit by a nuclear shockwave, launched himself into the air with a balloon, then a week later fought through the greatest special forces team in the world, got tortured and mutilated, then went through hell, both figuratively and literally, fought a lightning man made of electricity and bullet punches in a tiny room, then blew up an armored death tank while riding around exposed in a motorcycle sidecar, then fought and defeated the greatest soldier in history in a one on one fight

"yeah but if imagine that you're big boss then you are, he's just a legend" seems a bit laughable in light of all that

 

[aly]

Liquid died because of Foxdie. The guy did survive a crash, a fall, an explosion, and a fight before that.

Good point. Liquid was really durable and had to be taken down by a virus. He also had so much will power that he even came back from the dead.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Same reason Solid Snake beat Big Boss, Solidus, and Liquid Snake despite having the inferior genes. A matter of willpower.

One thing I like about TPP is that it hammers in that the Legend of Big Boss is just that-a legend.

Except for the part where it is not just a legend. Big Boss is Big Boss for a reason, and that is through the shit he pulls off in Snake Eater, Portable Ops and Peacewalker.

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

I think it's more boring to say Liquid failed because his genes, training or talent was somehow lesser. That robs him of agency.

He lost because he was also petty and back-asswards in his beliefs. Will is not simply what you want. Will is how you apply yourself.

I think that this line of thought actually strips more agency away from snake and BB in their respective plots than from the villains.

It's all up to people to believe in themselves. And if you don't believe and force of will properly against the other guy force of willing properly then your genes and memes will be scene outside without your levi jeans and both the peens will be eensy meensy and THEN where will the willpower be???!!!

I've gone cross eyed.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

big boss got thrown a hundred feet into a raging river, half of his bones broken, was hit by a nuclear shockwave, launched himself into the air with a balloon, then a week later fought through the greatest special forces team in the world, got tortured and mutilated, then went through hell, both figuratively and literally, fought a lightning man made of electricity and bullet punches in a tiny room, then blew up an armored death tank while riding around exposed in a motorcycle sidecar, then fought and defeated the greatest soldier in history in a one on one fight

"yeah but if imagine that you're big boss then you are, he's just a legend" seems a bit laughable in light of all that

And behind him, was Skullface all along.

Big Boss: "I...defeated the Cobra unit. I'm half comatose. How?"

...

.....


.......

..........


*From a distance*

Skullface: "Not how, but WHOOOOO. Whoooo. whooooooo"

Big Boss: "Is that an Owl?"

Except for the part where it is not just a legend. Big Boss is Big Boss for a reason, and that is through the shit he pulls off in Snake Eater, Portable Ops and Peacewalker.

One important thing is that during those moments, he had alot of help from his friends. It was retconned that Skullface was helping him out in MGS3-cheapening his legend, but it fits in with Peace Walker in that without Miller, BB wouldn't have been able to build Outer Heaven. Without...Chicos sister and the guerilla fighters, he would've probably died when caught by...that russian dude. Or was it Hot Coldman? I dunno. But during those instances he needed help to do things. He couldn't even stop Peace Walker-it was the AI of the Boss that stopped herself.

 

[JayEH]

Liquid died because of Foxdie. The guy did survive a crash, a fall, an explosion, and a fight before that.

Good point haha.

 

[KOMANI]

Outside of the the first three games, there is no message. The last three games are meant to tell a fairy tale of a soldier, the friends that betray him, and the sons that he never asked for.
These last three games don't have a theme to tie them together, they just tell a story, and badly may I add. There are ups and downs, some unforgettable moments and cringe worthy cutscenes... But there is no message. Not sense, or dissolve. Not becoming demons or being an avatar. It's just the ramblings of a wanna be movie director who could use some help structuring a story.

 

[Berserker976]

..... except we play multiple games as Big Boss living up to that legend EXACTLY...

Also - Neit - I respect your opinion as well. You argue it very well and I can see the angle/idea you are taking from the story here. I have to disagree and i kind of reject the idea that i'm missing the point as exploding said of a grand central theme of Legends are Lies and Big Boss is like superman.
I absolute "get" what the game is trying to say in that regard. I also think it's completely fuckin stupid and meaningless given the context of the previous games.

And using Jack/Raiden as an example of someone persisting through "force of will" is kind of off point seeing as he was being trained, by Solidus, since he was a small child to be the perfect soldier. And then MGS2 was engineered to play out in a very specific way (shadow moses). What i reject in some of these interpretations is the idea that it doesn't matter who we play as... that we all become a big boss because our will to be a Big Boss i strong enough.

It's some placating backdoor cheap bs imo and minimizes and detracts from BBs story in a really shitty way.

I'm glad some people liked it because i was convinced after playing it that no one would.

But to say that the Legend of Big Boss ran away from the man and isn't realistic, that the soldiers and we "Drank the kool-aid" is kind of ridiculous.

We played 3. We played PW. We've seen what normal soldiers in this world look/act/fight like. And we've watched BB and his genetic progeny along with a perfectly engineered child soldier dropped into a pre-fabricated win scenerio and seen what THEY as soldiers can do and the disparity between these groups is vast.

But - i'm to swallow that he's not important. Not special. Just a dude like you or me who happens to want it more.

Nevermind child slaves and captured prisoners and revolutionaries and genetic freak assassins with plans for world domination and a viscious crazy streak. These people aren't up to the level of BB because they don't want it enough. They don't believe in themselves.

They aren't clapping hard enough? ...

fyi i love discussing this with you guys.

Well said.

I also want to make it clear that I'm enjoying these discussions, it's one of the main reasons I love this series so much, it lends itself to a lot of healthy debate.

Now, back on track. Notice how we've been contextualizing all of this stuff mainly through the previous games? That's because we can't discuss these themes when it comes to Venom because he's such a blank slate. We don't know if he has any will of his own, and if he does, he certainly doesn't express it. He's the odd one out because he's just an avatar, he's not actually a character.

Literally all we know about him is that he was "one of MSF's best soldiers" and that when he found out he wasn't really Big Boss he smirked and punched a mirror.

 

[Scrooged]

If Raiden can be on par with Solid Snake then it shouldn't be much of a leap to accept that Venom could be on par with Big Boss. Hell, it's actually easier to believe. Raiden was just manipulated by the Patriot AI and had VR training. Venom was hypnotized for 9 years to have the memories of BB and had surgery to look just like BB.

Also, the MGS series has focused on things like memes, genes, and how the environment can shape a person, but it never comes to the conclusion that any one of these is completely dominant. It's a mix of all plus a heavy dose of will. Zero thinks it's all about genes of course, but we're not supposed to take it as gospel.

 

[Neiteio]

..... except we play multiple games as Big Boss living up to that legend EXACTLY...

Also - Neit - I respect your opinion as well. You argue it very well and I can see the angle/idea you are taking from the story here. I have to disagree and i kind of reject the idea that i'm missing the point as exploding said of a grand central theme of Legends are Lies and Big Boss is like superman.
I absolute "get" what the game is trying to say in that regard. I also think it's completely fuckin stupid and meaningless given the context of the previous games.

And using Jack/Raiden as an example of someone persisting through "force of will" is kind of off point seeing as he was being trained, by Solidus, since he was a small child to be the perfect soldier. And then MGS2 was engineered to play out in a very specific way (shadow moses). What i reject in some of these interpretations is the idea that it doesn't matter who we play as... that we all become a big boss because our will to be a Big Boss i strong enough.

It's some placating backdoor cheap bs imo and minimizes and detracts from BBs story in a really shitty way.

I'm glad some people liked it because i was convinced after playing it that no one would.

But to say that the Legend of Big Boss ran away from the man and isn't realistic, that the soldiers and we "Drank the kool-aid" is kind of ridiculous.

We played 3. We played PW. We've seen what normal soldiers in this world look/act/fight like. And we've watched BB and his genetic progeny along with a perfectly engineered child soldier dropped into a pre-fabricated win scenerio and seen what THEY as soldiers can do and the disparity between these groups is vast.

But - i'm to swallow that he's not important. Not special. Just a dude like you or me who happens to want it more.

Nevermind child slaves and captured prisoners and revolutionaries and genetic freak assassins with plans for world domination and a viscious crazy streak. These people aren't up to the level of BB because they don't want it enough. They don't believe in themselves.

They aren't clapping hard enough? ...

fyi i love discussing this with you guys.

I think your interpretation is sound, even if it's different from mine. I think it speaks to the complexity of this series that we can all look at the same characters and have different takes on how their lives played out. I think that's really cool.

Again, my personal interpretation is that willpower plays a role, and Snake and friends just happen to be very strong in this regard. But I'm exploring your idea now. Not challenging it. Just seeing if Venom can be reconciled with it.

And I think he can. I mean, in your view, the training plays a key role, and the genes help a lot. Venom doesn't have the genes, but it's quite possible he has the training. The physical and mental training from Big Boss, much like how Big Boss learned from The Boss. Would it have been more satisfying for us fans to see more of that relationship? Maybe. I understand Kojima going for the "blank slate" angle so we can insert our own stories, however.

Either way, the idea seems to be that the medic trained under Big Boss, much like how Big Boss trained under The Boss. I mean, all of BB's soldiers train under him, and this one was with him on his missions. So maybe he does have a good amount of experience out on the battlefield. Maybe he's learned a lot from watching Big Boss. Maybe at some point Big Boss saw the same sort of personality traits and physical ability in the medic that he has in himself. At least the potential. Enough to make an approximation of the legend.

And from there those gifts and that training experience and those insights are bolstered by Venom's brainwashed conviction that he -is- Big Boss, and that's enough to unshackle anything that was inhibiting his potential, allowing him to exceed everyone's expectations.

At the end of the day, we don't know who'd win in a fight between Venom and Big Boss, or who would lead a more effective campaign, or whatever. He clearly ends up on the losing side of MG1, so BB came out ahead there. So in that sense, BB remains superior in terms of ability, it would seem, and lives up to his legend.

I guess what I'm saying is, there is room for interpretation and I think your viewpoint is as valid as anyone else. I prefer the willpower take, but even if we go with your view, I don't think Venom is incompatible with it.

Just some thoughts.

 

[JayEH]

If Raiden can be on par with Solid Snake then it shouldn't be much of a leap to accept that Venom could be on par with Big Boss. Hell, it's actually easier to believe. Raiden was just manipulated by the Patriot AI and had VR training. Venom was hypnotized for 9 years to have the memories of BB and had surgery to look just like BB.

Also, the MGS series has focused on things like memes, genes, and how the environment can shape a person, but it never comes to the conclusion that any one of these is completely dominant. It's a mix of all plus a heavy dose of will. Zero thinks it's all about genes of course, but we're not supposed to take it as gospel.

I don't see how being hypnotized is more believable.

 

[Soriku]

big boss got thrown a hundred feet into a raging river, half of his bones broken, was hit by a nuclear shockwave, launched himself into the air with a balloon, then a week later fought through the greatest special forces team in the world, got tortured and mutilated, then went through hell, both figuratively and literally, fought a lightning man made of electricity and bullet punches in a tiny room, then blew up an armored death tank while riding around exposed in a motorcycle sidecar, then fought and defeated the greatest soldier in history in a one on one fight

"yeah but if imagine that you're big boss then you are, he's just a legend" seems a bit laughable in light of all that

He was also forced to fight off Ocelot right after beating The Boss.

Big Boss don't stop.

Liquid died because of Foxdie. The guy did survive a crash, a fall, an explosion, and a fight before that.

Hell he survived two explosions.

 

[Spaghetti]

loving the skullface shops.

 

[Scrooged]

.

But - i'm to swallow that he's not important. Not special. Just a dude like you or me who happens to want it more.

Nevermind child slaves and captured prisoners and revolutionaries and genetic freak assassins with plans for world domination and a viscious crazy streak. These people aren't up to the level of BB because they don't want it enough. They don't believe in themselves.

They aren't clapping hard enough? ...

fyi i love discussing this with you guys.

What do you mean by special though? Just because people can theoretically be as good as Big Boss doesn't mean he's not special. I mean, nobody is saying it's easy.

 

[WrenchNinja]

One important thing is that during those moments, he had alot of help from his friends. It was retconned that Skullface was helping him out in MGS3-cheapening his legend, but it fits in with Peace Walker in that without Miller, BB wouldn't have been able to build Outer Heaven. Without...Chicos sister and the guerilla fighters, he would've probably died when caught by...that russian dude. Or was it Hot Coldman? I dunno. But during those instances he needed help to do things. He couldn't even stop Peace Walker-it was the AI of the Boss that stopped herself.

We don't even know what Skull Face actually did. I know what I did as Big Boss, and I sure as hell know that he was doing the impossible in Snake Eater. Without Big Boss, Miller wouldn't have accomplished jack, Amanda wouldn't have gotten her country back, the Mammal Pod wouldn't have been crippled enough to wake up from what was going to happen. Everyone needs help and they can't do literally everything, but to just brush away what Big Boss accomplished is just silly.

This whole "the legend is a lie" thing is a load of crap and is not supported in the games at all.

 

[A-V-B]

The second Field Photographer captures this horrifying moment as Skull Face is unable to help Naked Snake in a time of crisis.

 

[LurkerPrime]

The image above reminds me, why does Skull Face wear the mask? What exactly does he think he's hiding?

"Vocal chord paras-"

"He's coming too?"

"...mating pairs..."

"Fulton recovery subject confirmed on board helicopter"

"...the Wolbachia"

"ANALYSIS COMPLETE. ANALYSIS COMP-MARKER PLACED. ANALYSIS COMPLETE"

"...Archaea..."

"Boss, that's an enemy gunship!"

This post has perfectly captured my cassette experience. And summed up everything Code Talker says.

Amazing.

 

[Neiteio]

big boss got thrown a hundred feet into a raging river, half of his bones broken, was hit by a nuclear shockwave, launched himself into the air with a balloon, then a week later fought through the greatest special forces team in the world, got tortured and mutilated, then went through hell, both figuratively and literally, fought a lightning man made of electricity and bullet punches in a tiny room, then blew up an armored death tank while riding around exposed in a motorcycle sidecar, then fought and defeated the greatest soldier in history in a one on one fight

"yeah but if imagine that you're big boss then you are, he's just a legend" seems a bit laughable in light of all that

I don't think anyone's saying that. Just that it's not purely his genetic gifts that enable what he does. Character plays a large part, and the will to apply oneself.

Well said.

I also want to make it clear that I'm enjoying these discussions, it's one of the main reasons I love this series so much, it lends itself to a lot of healthy debate.

Now, back on track. Notice how we've been contextualizing all of this stuff mainly through the previous games? That's because we can't discuss these themes when it comes to Venom because he's such a blank slate. We don't know if he has any will of his own, and if he does, he certainly doesn't express it. He's the odd one out because he's just an avatar, he's not actually a character.

Literally all we know about him is that he was "one of MSF's best soldiers" and that when he found out he wasn't really Big Boss he smirked and punched a mirror.

Yeah, you hit on what makes Venom such a complicated character: namely, we don't know anything about his character. We can see the edges of a character, but much is purposely left undefined. In terms of discussion, I think this is interesting since it creates a certain ambiguity in terms of theme. More than ever, our discussions interpreting MGS and what it means will reflect a bit of ourselves.

 

[Scrooged]

I don't see how being hypnotized is more believable.

Why not? Raiden was manipulated in order to replicate Snake. Hypnosis is the ultimate type of manipulation.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

We don't even know what Skull Face actually did. I know what I did as Big Boss, and I sure as hell know that he was doing the impossible in Snake Eater. Without Big Boss, Miller wouldn't have accomplished jack, Amanda wouldn't have gotten her country back, the Mammal Pod wouldn't have been crippled enough to wake up from what was going to happen. Everyone needs help and they can't do literally everything, but to just brush away what Big Boss accomplished is just silly.

This whole "the legend is a lie" thing is a load of crap and is not supported in the games at all.

Now that you mention it, EVA helped BB alot in taking out Volgin and Shagohad. What BB was accomplished is, killing the Cobra unit. What he accomplished with help, was taking out the Shagohad.

And yeah, thats how the legend is extinguished. That BB did things with the help of others. That the Legendary Soldier needed help to accomplish his greatest feats. Thats what Solid Snake knew, that helping others in order to accomplish his goal was better than believing in only yourself.

BB abandoned that. He left Miller and the soldiers that believed in him to dry. He went off to build his own nation whilst his phantom picked up the dregs and left him to be the worlds target. Big Boss abandoned Eva despite her bearing his children. He left Zero and the founding members because he wanted to carve his own path.He abandoned Miller and MSF. He used Ocelot to train his Phantom. And by himself? He got wrecked by Solid Snake. By himself? He may have built a nation, but it was unfurled by one person. The one with the inferior genes. Everything unraveled, the legend falling to pieces. Maybe BB brought into his own legend that made him take this course of action, going out by himself. Either way....the legend of Big Boss is bigger than him.

 

[Neiteio]

The legend of BB doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. I think he can be an incredible person who accomplished incredible things, and at the same time his legend may have been exaggerated or distorted in some capacity. In other words, I think it's a mix of the two.

 

[KOMANI]

We're not supposed to know anything about the Medic because that would taint the fantasy of interjecting our own personalities within the character. Hence the hero/demon points.
I think it's not even worth dissecting its story because there aren't any revelations hidden within the core of the story. You can't and won't find anything meaningful in a game that went through development hell.

 

[Neiteio]

BB abandoned that. He left Miller and the soldiers that believed in him to dry. He went off to build his own nation whilst his phantom picked up the dregs and left him to be the worlds target. Big Boss abandoned Eva despite her bearing his children. He left Zero and the founding members because he wanted to carve his own path.He abandoned Miller and MSF. He used Ocelot to train his Phantom. And by himself? He got wrecked by Solid Snake. By himself? He may have built a nation, but it was unfurled by one person. The one with the inferior genes. Everything unraveled, the legend falling to pieces. Maybe BB brought into his own legend that made him take this course of action, going out by himself. Either way....the legend of Big Boss is bigger than him.

I like your interpretation of the BB character arc and the man vs. the myth. I think it's really interesting and shows that MGSV did accomplish some measure of growth there, even if it was largely offscreen and through us seeing the fruits of BB's labor (Venom) rather than the man himself. BB's work with Venom shows he's forging a new path.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The legend of BB doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. I think he can be an incredible person who accomplished incredible things, and at the same time his legend may have been exaggerated or distorted in some capacity. In other words, I think it's a mix of the two.

The legend is the legend. The legend is BB fighting to create a nation of soldiers, taking out the cobra unit, the shagohad, and MGS1/2/4 help to construct that legend, as the thing that people want to aspire to. At the same time, they, along with TPP and PW help deconstruct the legend as well. Arguments can be made for both and it's wonderful, the discussion that it can make.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Why not? Raiden was manipulated in order to replicate Snake. Hypnosis is the ultimate type of manipulation.

Raiden's manipulation was just analogous for real world social context and media. Video games:VR, legends about Shadow Moses and Snake:Metal Gear fanboyism. It also didn't hurt that Raiden actually had real world combat experience... and though he was manipulated into following orders, by the end it was more due to force and the threat of loved ones being hurt because he had had the truth exposed and abandoned the futile fantasy of becoming Snake.

Venom gets magical superhypnosis we never see or learn about while he's taking a snooze with a rock in his brain.

 

[KOMANI]

Now that you mention it, EVA helped BB alot in taking out Volgin and Shagohad. What BB was accomplished is, killing the Cobra unit. What he accomplished with help, was taking out the Shagohad.

And yeah, thats how the legend is extinguished. That BB did things with the help of others. That the Legendary Soldier needed help to accomplish his greatest feats. Thats what Solid Snake knew, that helping others in order to accomplish his goal was better than believing in only yourself.

BB abandoned that. He left Miller and the soldiers that believed in him to dry. He went off to build his own nation whilst his phantom picked up the dregs and left him to be the worlds target. Big Boss abandoned Eva despite her bearing his children. He left Zero and the founding members because he wanted to carve his own path.He abandoned Miller and MSF. He used Ocelot to train his Phantom. And by himself? He got wrecked by Solid Snake. By himself? He may have built a nation, but it was unfurled by one person. The one with the inferior genes. Everything unraveled, the legend falling to pieces. Maybe BB brought into his own legend that made him take this course of action, going out by himself. Either way....the legend of Big Boss is bigger than him.

He did have Gray Fox.

 

[The Silver]

The fact you could play with any soldier and go through all the missions that BB in PW was all that was needed to be said about BB not being some super special snowflake, the game even had soldiers that had better stats than BB. The game was directly telling you Big Boss is not some supernaturally skilled genetic freak of nature.

What made Big Boss "Big Boss" was that he was the right man, in the right place, at the right time. Who is Big Boss without Operation Snake Eater? He would be another "Medic", just some unknown skilled soldier, never getting the chance to live up to his true potential.

MGSV is Venom's Snake Eater moment.(though tainted because of BB and Zero stealing his old identity) Outer Heaven/Shadow Moses was Solid Snake's, The Big Shell was an attempt to manufacture this(to prove an even greater concept) with Raiden and they succeeded.

God I just wish they had at least delved into Venom's parallel with how The Boss was used, the twist is so fucking empty as it it.

 

[Reebot]

The image above reminds me, why does Skull Face wear the mask? What exactly does he think he's hiding?

Tell me about Skull Face! Why does he wear that mask?

The second Field Photographer captures this horrifying moment as Skull Face is unable to help Naked Snake in a time of crisis.

These are legit amazing.

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

What do you mean by special though? Just because people can theoretically be as good as Big Boss doesn't mean he's not special. I mean, nobody is saying it's easy.

No doubt. It's not easy. The Boss even shows (quite handily might i add) that it's possible to be better than Big Boss in the pure soldier aspect of things. But by making this literally no-named soldier step in and fool the world by being just as capable and deadly and precise a soldier as BB the game clearly demonstrates that Big Boss isn't really that unique. Even the title of Big Boss brings with it the prestige of there being only one in the world at any given time - and yet here we are being called Big Boss and living up to that name while the real deal is out there doing his own thing.

It's not portrayed as easy but it's also not really valued in the way you'd think it should be. I mean... at some point shouldn't Kaz or Ocelot or anyone else in DD who is in on the joke kind of step back and be like
"Well... fuck! We don't even need the real Big Boss anymore. This dude is all that and a bag of chips! We should make more!"

Because while it's not easy - they managed it. And with a soldier who by all rights was not a Big Boss level soldier before the wreck.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

He did have Gray Fox.

In a way, even Gray Fox denounces BB, by announcing that him and Snake aren't tools to be used by anyone else in his deathrattle.

So he definitely used Fox in the way only BB would know how to.

 

[Alienous]

Venom Snake goes from limp to Big Boss in about 10 days.

Dat will.

The second Field Photographer captures this horrifying moment as Skull Face is unable to help Naked Snake in a time of crisis.

Haha.

That's the expression of someone who didn't realise Big Boss was pretending to be Raikov. Pure "oh no".

 

[Neiteio]

Raiden's manipulation was just analogous for real world social context and media. Video games:VR, legends about Shadow Moses and Snake:Metal Gear fanboyism. It also didn't hurt that Raiden actually had real world combat experience... and though he was manipulated into following orders, by the end it was more due to force and the threat of loved ones being hurt because he had had the truth exposed and abandoned the futile fantasy of becoming Snake.

Venom gets magical superhypnosis we never see or learn about while he's taking a snooze with a rock in his brain.

I think we can safely assume Venom trained under BB in his army, so the baseline of skill and experience might be more comparable to Raiden than we think. All heroes start somewhere. We don't know much about Venom and we know virtually nothing about how he was tricked into thinking he's BB, but maybe him thinking he's BB doesn't matter much in the end. Maybe he's just the type of thinker and doer who had the right toolset of skills and would've rose to greatness regardless.

Snake had an army of hundreds or thousands. There had to be someone exceptional in there somewhere.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

These shops are the best thing ever

 

[WrenchNinja]

Now that you mention it, EVA helped BB alot in taking out Volgin and Shagohad. What BB was accomplished is, killing the Cobra unit. What he accomplished with help, was taking out the Shagohad.

And yeah, thats how the legend is extinguished. That BB did things with the help of others. That the Legendary Soldier needed help to accomplish his greatest feats. Thats what Solid Snake knew, that helping others in order to accomplish his goal was better than believing in only yourself.

BB abandoned that. He left Miller and the soldiers that believed in him to dry. He went off to build his own nation whilst his phantom picked up the dregs and left him to be the worlds target. Big Boss abandoned Eva despite her bearing his children. He left Zero and the founding members because he wanted to carve his own path.He abandoned Miller and MSF. He used Ocelot to train his Phantom. And by himself? He got wrecked by Solid Snake. By himself? He may have built a nation, but it was unfurled by one person. The one with the inferior genes. Everything unraveled, the legend falling to pieces. Maybe BB brought into his own legend that made him take this course of action, going out by himself. Either way....the legend of Big Boss is bigger than him.

Just making a nation by itself is doing something with others though.

The legend of BB doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. I think he can be an incredible person who accomplished incredible things, and at the same time his legend may have been exaggerated or distorted in some capacity. In other words, I think it's a mix of the two.

What part has been exaggerated and distorted?

 

[foxtrot3d]

I can't believe you people are arguing about BB's genes and how some Medic is able to be just as effective as the Legend. Again, like I said in the video the twist is completely Meta the reason Venom can do everything is because he is YOU. YOU are the one that defeated the Cobras, blew up the Shagohad, and took down Peace Walker. YOU also did everything in MGSV. YOU are as much Big Boss as he is.

The problem with the twist is when the meta-levelness of it attempts to work within the fiction of the universe by establishing Venom as a character that exists after the events of MGSV. Venom is not a character, he is a pure avatar for the player. Accordingly, asking questions about what he did or didn't do before or after the events of MGSV is pointless, he's not a true character that can be analyzed.

 

[wiibomb]

I just finished the Paz Arc but I still don't get it... was it all imagined by Phatom Boss or what happened?

 

[Reebot]

I can't believe you people are arguing about BB's genes and how some Medic is able to be just as effective as the Legend. Again, like I said in the video the twist is completely Meta the reason Venom can do everything is because he is YOU. YOU are the one that defeated the Cobras, blew up the Shagohad, and took down Peace Walker. YOU also did everything in MGSV. YOU are as much Big Boss as he is

No that was Skull Face.

 

[Opto]

I just finished the Paz Arc but I still don't get it... was it all imagined by Phatom Boss or what happened?

Venom/Medic didn't find the second bomb. Paz is dead, but the guilt lives on.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The legacy of Metal Gear Solid V is a thousand maybes.

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

Just some thoughts.

Good stuff!

I think - for me at least - what would have really helped me swallow the pill here would have been something/anything within either GZ or a different opening of TPP that showed Big Boss and Medic together. We wouldn't have our twist perhaps and so i know why they didn't go that way. It was probably never on the drawing board to illustrate who this soldier was in any fashion that we as the player could more properly transplant ourselves onto this blank canvas but if they had shown a few missions where Medic was your buddy and he was gawdamned good in the field we could put aside some of this vitrol about how the story just dropped that ball completely and perhaps understand BBs and Ocelots decision to brainwash this particular soldier.

And i'm forcing myself to realize that a big part of my problem with the game is actually just that. My problem. I don't really enjoy silent protag games where we are supposed to imagine ourselves in this position and create our own drama and story by a connection to the world through our place in the story. They've never really resonated with me and they almost always fall short on the story side of things because of the lack of a strong personality in the central character (Vs biggest problem imo) so it's probably just more a personal preference thing.

I respect the idea and I think someone already mentioned on the last page that if this were a stand alone new sneaking/soldier game it would probably go over much easier and be genuinely interesting as a new take on the hero paradigm.

As it stands - I really wanted to play as big fucking boss and feel kind of robbed of a final opportunity to do that. C'est La vie.

No that was Skull Face.

dude stawp i can't breath lol

 

[wiibomb]

Venom/Medic didn't find the second bomb. Paz is dead, but the guilt lives on.

Then all these cutscenes were part of the imagination of the phantom? Nothing really happened?

 

[Neiteio]

The fact you could play with any soldier and go through all the missions that BB in PW was all that was needed to be said about BB not being some super special snowflake, the game even had soldiers that had better stats than BB. The game was directly telling you Big Boss is not some supernaturally skilled genetic freak of nature.

What made Big Boss "Big Boss" was that he was the right man, in the right place, at the right time. Who is Big Boss without Operation Snake Eater? He would be another "Medic", just some unknown skilled soldier, never getting the chance to live up to his true potential.

MGSV is Venom's Snake Eater moment.(though tainted because of BB and Zero stealing his old identity) Outer Heaven/Shadow Moses was Solid Snake's, The Big Shell was an attempt to manufacture this(to prove an even greater concept) with Raiden and they succeeded.

God I just wish they had at least delved into Venom's parallel with how The Boss was used, the twist is so fucking empty as it it.

That's a good point with how you can play as any of the Diamond Dogs. It really does seem like Kojima is saying BB is not a special snowflake. But at the same time I could see how this would strike others as implausible.

But then again, it is a videogame, where the very act of us playing and making shit happen might be a point in itself.

And I fully agree they should've gone in deep with exploring BB's betrayal of Venom and how it parallels the U.S. government's betrayal of The Boss. (Or maybe "misuse" is the better word.)

No doubt. It's not easy. The Boss even shows (quite handily might i add) that it's possible to be better than Big Boss in the pure soldier aspect of things. But by making this literally no-named soldier step in and fool the world by being just as capable and deadly and precise a soldier as BB the game clearly demonstrates that Big Boss isn't really that unique. Even the title of Big Boss brings with it the prestige of there being only one in the world at any given time - and yet here we are being called Big Boss and living up to that name while the real deal is out there doing his own thing.

It's not portrayed as easy but it's also not really valued in the way you'd think it should be. I mean... at some point shouldn't Kaz or Ocelot or anyone else in DD who is in on the joke kind of step back and be like
"Well... fuck! We don't even need the real Big Boss anymore. This dude is all that and a bag of chips! We should make more!"

Because while it's not easy - they managed it. And with a soldier who by all rights was not a Big Boss level soldier before the wreck.

I can't prove this, but here's how I picture things went down:

Big Boss trains MSF, passing along his skills and know-how, just like how The Boss trained him. At some point, he discovers an especially gifted student. This is The Medic. Think of how The Boss was one of the greatest soldiers who ever lived, and how her pupil achieved a similar level of greatness. Big Boss must've saw that potential here. He thought that if anyone could fill in for him, it would be The Medic.

So the physical and mental gifts, the training, the skill, the discipline, the willpower, it was already there. And that's what makes Venom succeed -- not thinking he's BB, but being a truly exceptional student.

There's no rule that says after The Boss, every great soldier has to be tied to BB. In this case BB discovered The Medic in his own ranks. And when the time was right, The Medic became Venom.

That's how I think it went down. Again, I can't prove it, but nothing contradicts it in the material.

 

[The Silver]

I can't believe you people are arguing about BB's genes and how some Medic is able to be just as effective as the Legend. Again, like I said in the video the twist is completely Meta the reason Venom can do everything is because he is YOU. YOU are the one that defeated the Cobras, blew up the Shagohad, and took down Peace Walker. YOU also did everything in MGSV. YOU are as much Big Boss as he is.

The problem with the twist is when the meta-levelness of it attempts to work within the fiction of the universe by establishing Venom as a character that exists after the events of MGSV. Venom is not a character, he is a pure avatar for the player. Accordingly, asking questions about what he did or didn't do before or after the events of MGSV is pointless, he's not a true character that can be analyzed.

yes, the problem is it fails at making Venom a true avatar, starting with the fact it only reveals so at the end of the game. The rest of it you're thinking you're some weird silent established Big Boss, how can anyone properly step into him when he's like that? It's hard for people to divorce that he's supposed to be "you" when the entire rest of the game he wasn't and then after the game he screws off and dies without you.

 

[Opto]

The second Field Photographer captures this horrifying moment as Skull Face is unable to help Naked Snake in a time of crisis.

 

[JayEH]

Then all these cutscenes were part of the imagination of the phantom? Nothing really happened?

Correct.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Then all these cutscenes were part of the imagination of the phantom? Nothing really happened?

Yup. It was his guilty conscience. It's pretty powerful, actually. It's...if we look at it from the story point, it's sub-conscious denial of what happened in GZ. In his subconscious, Paz made it out ok.

It's one of the better parts of the game IMO.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Another thing is that the whole theme about memes and the S3 plan in MGS2 was that manipulation and lies are A) an uncomfortable necessity to maintain society, and B) something that participants in society will go along with, sometimes even aware and willingly, even if it means suppressing their doubts as long as the lies meet their expectations and desires. That feels like an actual message, and it's integral to every part of MGS2.

The Venom twist feels like a stoner suddenly thinking, "Dude... if they like, made a machine, that made you look and sound like another person... and you like, had their memories... would you, like, BE that person? Fucking blew my own mind..."