Berserker976
Member
I mean, if you're literally talking about quantity of exposition then I guess you might be right, but in terms of character and world building MGSV is horribly emaciated.
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I mean, if you're literally talking about quantity of exposition then I guess you might be right, but in terms of character and world building MGSV is horribly emaciated.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
If I was trying to attack or belittle you, I'd have gone "HurHurHur PWNED!" or some such juvenile crap after I caught you on that point.
That I didn't, and in fact just made the mild admonishment that I thought that your point was "daft" should be enough to tell you that's not where I'm coming from on this.
And I'm sorry, arguing that just because the game is structured episodically as opposed to a linear monolithic campaign its less replayable is just obtuse to me. Bite-sized chunks of content are by definition more replayable than campaigns because they have lower time-requirements and allow players to specifically re-play favourite parts whilst avoiding those they don't enjoy so much.
Well, as mentioned in my previous post on the last page, the game made me ponder the entire MGS universe and made me see a ton of characters and events in a new light.
So again, we must agree to disagree
Huh? You don't have to replay anything. To continue the story you just had to play 3 or so side ops, you don't have to play the hard version of the story missions that open up.
akidnamededdy
Banned
But part of what made MGS2 so great WAS the marketing. Fake trailers were made showing Snake in parts that you actually play as Raiden. It served the twist and it spoke to the game's overall message about information control.
I feel like an analysis that DOESN'T factor in marketing and even cut content isn't really a complete analysis, especially in this case, where it's so clear that the trailers were deliberately painting a very different story than the one we ended up getting. Kojima's been known to use marketing as a tool for his story before, I say it's fair game for analysis now.
Berserker976
Member
Well, as mentioned in my previous post on the last page, the game made me ponder the entire MGS universe and made me see a ton of characters and events in a new light.
So again, we must agree to disagree
I'd like some examples, actually, because I'm not seeing how you could possibly get more out of MGSV's characters and narrative than any other MGS game.
Also ridiculous that Mantis gets absolutely no real screentime. He's just there and we learn nothing about him except that he's some sort of demi-god even more powerful than before.
It would've been much better if the Man on Fire, whale, etc were just Big Boss' hallucinations being accentuated by Mantis. But no they had to be real, Mantis needed to be a fucking necromancer and able to summon giant whales to eat helicopters.
It would've been much better if the Man on Fire, whale, etc were just Big Boss' hallucinations being accentuated by Mantis. But no they had to be real, Mantis needed to be a fucking necromancer and able to summon giant whales to eat helicopters.
KOMANI
KOMANI
No, it's I that is sorry for engaging you. From this point on I won't bother to read you since I've never found you to be stimulating, and I didn't even read your current post.
Inferno313
Banned
That stuff is interesting to analyze on it's own. But that is not part of the work itself.
When new people play MGS2 in the HD collection, or even further into the future, they won't have any of that information necessarily, they'll just have the work itself to reckon with.
Agreed. We got a thematically strong ending with new context and implications for the characters and events down the road. It's a great ending, just one people didn't expect, and for some it's hard to deal.
The irony of Neiteio liking the ending is perhaps I would have been warmer to it if he hadn't pretty much spoiled it in the review thread prior to release. A twist about who you're playing as, oh, I wonder what that could be. It's a good thing it's poorly executed in game, so I doubt not expecting it would have changed my opinion of it.
My issue with the tapes is they are a lazy way of advancing the plot.
Rather than designing the story around spreading its story more thinly throughout the experience you have tons of missions with no narrative importance and tons of tapes with no gameplay interaction. You are only rarely prompted to listen to them when it would be opportune to do so, so it's flipping between a game and its accompanying audiobook, almost like older games where the plot was primarily driven by the contents of the manual.
If the game was smarter about how it brings the tapes to your attention, and if my allies talking would temporarily pause it, or ideally be muted while listening, I think it would have been a better alternative to the codec than it currently is.
My issue with the tapes is they are a lazy way of advancing the plot.
Rather than designing the story around spreading its story more thinly throughout the experience you have tons of missions with no narrative importance and tons of tapes with no gameplay interaction. You are only rarely prompted to listen to them when it would be opportune to do so, so it's flipping between a game and its accompanying audiobook, almost like older games where the plot was primarily driven by the contents of the manual.
If the game was smarter about how it brings the tapes to your attention, and if my allies talking would temporarily pause it, or ideally be muted while listening, I think it would have been a better alternative to the codec than it currently is.
I have to agree about the tapes. instead of proper cutscenes or even radio calls, they just decided to use them as a way to explain stuff outside of the core game. some were fun like the Code Talker Hamburgers ones but anything strongly tied to the main story should've been part of the missions, imo.
How was it spoiled in the review thread?
I didn't like how intrusive the poorly paced codecs were in past MGS titles, so it was much preferable how MGSV did it. When I wanted to know more, I listened in the ACC; when I wanted to keep playing, I kept playing. Always on my own terms, which was so much more enjoyable.
And I never said in the review thread that the twist was who you were playing.
Essentially, stating that there was a twist about who a character in the game really was.
It was that un-vague.
So I have no doubt from minute one that some identity fuckery was afoot.
semiconscious
Member
the more of your posts i read, the more convinced i am that you've used the same self-hypnosis technique ocelot used
...i mean, ever consider it's equally likely that maybe convincing yourself it's a great ending might become necessary if it's hard for you to deal with the fact that it's simply lame?...
akidnamededdy
Banned
Does anyone else think the idea of paying a Hollywood actor to voice what is supposed to be a blank slate self insert character is inherently ridiculous?
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
to be fair, the second that you are making a face and then you and Ishmael have the same voice is all i needed to know that there was some bullshit happening from the getgo.
it's ridiculous if you took it at face value and didn't think the latter was an excuse for not having sufficient access to the former. Say what you will about Hayter, that guy would recording the entirety of a phone book for you.
Since it's Kojima, I'm not too surprised how ridiculous that is.
Which is why it wasn't experience ruining, but there's a difference between expecting fuckery and knowing it's coming.
I know man... thats what I said that I did! I am only saying that now, upon finishing with the story, I am starting to mess around with all extra stuff and replaying missions again for fun and different approaches.
RevolverRoden
Member
MY MAN.
Best post I've seen about the game in a while. I think more people will start to think about the game in this way, like you said, when the dust settles. People are saying MGSV didn't really bridge the gap and bring the series full circle but it actually did, just in a very different way than people expected. There was no MG1 remake and a Solid Snake fight. You didn't explicitly see big boss turn into a villian. But all this stuff kind of did happen. The game ends with Venom (the player) pretty much booting up the original Metal Gear. The final conversation between Kaz sets up why he hates BB later and possibly that ocelot kills kaz. Big Boss says he's creating outer heaven. And that's it really. Not everything is spelled out and it's fine. And Kojima is thanking the fans in a kind of subtle way with big boss talking to venom. That's pretty cool.
I never said in the review thread that anything hinged on who you were playing. I said there was a twist with huge implications for the series, in a thread where the GT review in the non-spoiler section of the thread said the exact same thing.
Cute, but this is such a lame way to say you simply didn't like the story. Trying to discredit the intelligence of someone who did like it is really unfair. I've thoroughly explained why it works for me. I wasn't even following this game after the disappointment of MGS4's story, so this is hardly a matter of -wanting- it to work. The game's story simply does.the more of your posts i read, the more convinced i am that you've used the same self-hypnosis technique ocelot used
i mean, ever consider it's equally likely that maybe convincing yourself it's a great ending might become necessary if it's hard for you to deal with the fact that it's simply lame?...
The game sets up Kaz hating Big Boss and nowt else.
Everything else could have been inferred from the prior games in the series.
You didn't say it was to do with who we were playing as. I can't recall exactly how you worded it, but you were excited about a twist, then your last word was something that implied it was a twist about who a character really was.
You edited it but the thread was pissed at you, I recall.
Here's the page.
Everything else could have been inferred from the prior games in the series.
You didn't say it was to do with who we were playing as. I can't recall exactly how you worded it, but you were excited about a twist, then your last word was something that implied it was a twist about who a character really was.
You edited it but the thread was pissed at you, I recall.
Here's the page.
Graphics Horse
Member
Agreed, I think it's overstated as it is, the trailer scenes were there to show boss fights (specificaly boss fights) without spoiling the surprise. If they really wanted to do something with a message they could have gone a lot further than a few model and location swaps of gameplay sequences.
I didn't say more, but about the same at the very least. I'll make a short list of things that I thought about further or saw in a new light after MGSV:
1. Huey and the pos that he turned out to be obviously was a whole new take on the character and the character type within the MGS universe, also made me think about Otacon (how different he was from his father) and the way Huey eventually died (suicide).
2. Miller as a whole and his connection with Solid Snake. Loved Miller in this game, so bitter and all business.
3. Liquid killing Miller in MGS1.
4. Ocelot supporting Liquid and Solidus.
5. Ocelot hypnosis technique and Ocelot in general. A character that we saw in a different light pretty much in every MGS game, and MGSV was no exception.
6. Paz
7. Big Boss having two fortresses and dying twice between Metal Gear 1 and Metal Gear 2 (this blew my mind, Kojima actually justified something like this within the context of the actual story of the universe instead of it being left explained away by just being a game and the villian coming back just because).
8. Quite was just too damn awesome and felt like a true comrade in arms, one that you fought a long side and would lose permanently eventually. So good.
9. The war economy.
10. Zeros character was of course expanded upon and made me feel more for him, and of course remember his death in MGS4.
11. Liquid and Psycho Mantis in MGS1. Not to mention REX.
The list goes on and on for me, couldn't have asked for more from a final entry in the series basically.
Huh? It tells you pretty much every freaking time to listen to new tapes. There is even a button prompt when you are in the helicopter (tells you to press triangle with a yellow tape icon) that specifically takes you straight to the tapes. I always devoured these tapes in the helicopter so I could give them my full attention, which is what you should do instead of listening to them with your attention distracted during gameplay.
akidnamededdy
Banned
I don't really see how there was anything subtle about that. Kojima's writing has the subtlety of a ball peen hammer to the back of the head.
Maybe it's because you lack investment in the franchise that the story works for you.
Berserker976
Member
semiconscious
Member
hunh?! & how is saying:
not discrediting the intelligence of someone who the ending didn't work for?...
Graphics Horse
Member
I've always been invested in the story. Just not how it's delivered. After MGS4, I was done with poorly paced codecs that interrupted gameplay and went on forever, etc. While I had read up on the story of GZ, I passed on playing it until more recently when I took a deeper look at it and realized that the method of storytelling and the gameplay itself had been vastly improved. That sold me on the somewhat similar model TPP would use to deliver its own story.
Me saying it's "hard for some to deal" isn't discrediting their intelligence. I'm speaking to them having a hard time adapting to the story based on how they expected things to work out and how much the story subverted those expectations.
Trust me, while we disagree on the story -- I like it, you don't -- I'm not saying you or anyone here is dumb. I respect all of you.
I respect some people here after the way they replied to me. but yes, the story and ending is divisive and that's understandable.
yea, heard the later trailers spoiled a lot of moments as expected
KOMANI
KOMANI
I don't have a problem with cassettes, they're fine. Paz's tape really shines. I think Troy sounds bad in all of them, and Sutherland puts a log character the few times we hear him as Big Boss.
But the codecs in the first two Solid games (I can't remember the 3 being as emotional) has some really emotional dialogue. I think that it's partly due to the actors having each other to play off of, whereas the cassettes are mostly come off flat. But you're right, MGS4 had the worst codecs, and that could be because Fukushima wasn't around to script them.
Conclusion: Just nothing comes close to those codec moments in the first solid games. But the Paz tape is exceptional.
semiconscious
Member
so now who's being cute?
...so i'm not 'dumb'. it's just that, rather than simply being awful, it's that the story subverted my expectations, & i'm just too thick to understand this. unlike, say, someone like yourself
...I said there was a twist with huge implications for the whole series. I didn't say what the twist was in any way, shape or form. If you go back and read people's responses in that thread, the reason they were pissed is because they thought that knowing there was a twist of any sort would ruin their experience. (This is why they put the word "twist" in spoiler tags, without even knowing what the "twist" was)Alienous said:
I'm saying the ending is not what some wanted and so it's harder for them to accept. Not harder for them to understand.so now who's being cute?
so i'm not 'dumb'. it's just that, rather than simply being awful, it's that the story subverted my expectations, & i'm just too thick to understand this
Inferno313
Banned
Right. Big Boss actually does have his heel turn in this, it's just not how people were expecting, and it's one of the smarter and more subtle things going on here, I'm so shocked by how low-key Kojima played this that I honestly wonder if he even realized what he was doing.
But in this, Big Boss goes from a man who disavows governments for not respecting the lives of soldiers to a man who is willing to erase one of his top men's entire identity for the sake of his ideals.
Berserker976
Member
But you have to realize that most of those points create serious problems with the greater canon.
Except we don't get to see Miller create that connection at all, if anything it creates a connection between Miller and Liquid, when Miller acts to protect Eli from Ocelot's interrogation, which leads to:
This point actually making less sense because of the established relationship between the three in MGSV.
Ocelot could be replaced with a talking piece of cardboard in MGSV and no one would be any the wiser. He doesn't actually do anything in MGSV except for almost torture some people. We learn nothing about his character.
My disgust with how this was handled all around has been documented elsewhere in this thread.
Ditto with Quiet. Ugh.
Yet another concept from an earlier game shoehorned in where it doesn't belong. The idea of the war economy isn't supposed to come about for several more decades, and it's supposed to be thought up by the AI itself. Referencing it in the '80s breaks the canon.
The only thing this game has to say about these three concepts is that they were all lamer in MGS1 than you originally thought they were.
Both her GZ and TPP tapes were nothing short of excellent, very well written and voiced.
For you but not for me
yea, that truly makes him quite evil. it also makes the ending of MGS4 where he explains what's going with Solid to be much more impactful. Even more so than before.
Yeah, if you listen to all of Paz's tapes in GZ and TPP, she's probably one of the best characters in MGSV. Very well-done.
KOMANI
KOMANI
Tara strong and Tim winters (zero) are the stars of the tapes.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Yeah, I preferred the codec method, versus this 'at arms length' when you feel like it, listening to this tape method.
It was half the reason why Big Boss was mute.
Logically it makes more sense, why would you take 5 or more minutes randomly in the middle of an important mission to have a chat. But what makes sense is not always what is best.
Seeing the "Episode 51" YouTube clip, it's also highly likely that at least SOME of the material was meant to be cut-scenes, but Kojima ran out of time, budget, or both.
Graphics Horse
Member
The game, in the awkward end conversation hints that Ocelot would go on to kill Miller, I don't remember if this contradicts anything.
Tara Strong yo
makes more sense to me that it was Ocelot.
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