"IMMA GONNA KILL YOU! VOLGIN SMA- oh wait second. Let me have a closer look. Oh my! Excuse me good sir, I confounded you with another man. I am terribly sorry, as a man of honour I can't live with this rudeness. Time to die."
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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
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Wait, what's this about Volgin noticing Venom isn't Snake and giving up?
Are you talking about the side ops cutscene where you retrieve his remains? I saw that as a hallucination, all in Venom's head. Third Child is nowhere nearby, after all.
...damnit this game handled child soldiers better than MGSV
Legendary---
Banned
So one year ago, who thought that Rising would do a better job in its writing, plot, and direction than V?
That would a random ass hallucination given that the only thing he actually hallucinated was Paz - which made sense given his actually trauma as a medic. But Volgin? He didn't even know that guy and his burning alicorn. I saw it as there was still a bit of magic fuel in him that just activated when "Big Boss" was close. In any case, it's weird. I already made my case regarding the wasted potential of hallucinations in MGSV. This is just another brick in the wall.
Well, in this case, Mantis is nowhere nearby. He's in Seychelles, while the scene is in Afghanistan. Plus, there's a cut where it goes from the dramatic Man on Fire to... his remains, lying inert, some distance away.
Seems pretty clear he hallucinated that bit.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Kuwabara, kuwabara was what Volgin said in MGS3. It's a phrase used in Japan to ward off lightning strikes.
On things I liked from the game, Kaz's speech at the end of Chapter 1 was pretty powerful.
"We hold our rifles in missing hands. We stand tall on missing legs. We stride forward on the bones of our fallen."
"Still, It doesn't feel like this is over. And I'll never be whole again."
Well shit, Miller.
"We hold our rifles in missing hands. We stand tall on missing legs. We stride forward on the bones of our fallen."
"Still, It doesn't feel like this is over. And I'll never be whole again."
Well shit, Miller.
Barry Burton
Member
I didn't think of it that way at the time, but having done the Paz side missions since, you may be right about this being another hallucination. I'll have to go back and watch that cutscene again.
Dick Justice
Banned
"Boss, light the holy ring - release its cleansing flame. With that, you'll burn a path into the divine beyond. A shining light, to our brothers-in-arms. Even in death..."
Venom had been pursued by the Man on Fire throughout the game, some traumatizing shit in itself. Why -couldn't- there be a hallucination when he encounters the remains?
And again:
Man on Fire was in Afghanistan while Mantis was in Seychelles.
And again:
The cut back to his inert body a ways away.
Not really. You can watch the scene here:
https://youtu.be/Hxu1fUlGVAw?t=890
There's no indication that its a hallucination whatsoever. The model change is fully in line with in-universe possibility, and we have out of universe precedent in Skull Face's death.
Reasonable points. Still remains a weird scene, because Venom had no real connection to him. Venoms lack of personality is really awful hat times.
edit: Wait. Seeing the video. His face. Volgins face! Venom wouldn't know.
Precedent for Skull Face's death? You mean Venom seeing a hallucination of Skull Face on Mother Base?
Again, the biggest obstacle to the Man on Fire really moving in that scene is that Mantis is nowhere nearby. He was with Eli back on Mother Base in the Indian Ocean. Every time Mantis shifted his focus (Shaboni in one scene, Eli in another), the Man on Fire either stopped in his tracks or walked the other way.
Nope, I mean when the models switched during Skull Face's death - the same thing that happens here.
No one's claiming that scene was a hallucination.
ShockingAlberto
Member
If that is just a hallucination, "Volgin gets crushed off-camera" is quite possibly a worse resolution to that subplot.
There's a plausible explanation for this in the "Doublethink" truth tape. Ocelot talks about how during the brainwashing process, The Medic was implanted with memories of every Big Boss mission. I imagine part of that process involved showing him images of Col. Volgin as they brainwashed him into "remembering" Operation Snake Eater.
If we accept the incredibly ridiculous idea that one can "hypnotize" a personality into another its then another very small leap to assume they can implant visual identifiers too.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
The only thing satisfying about MGSV is its gameplay. Everything else will leave you wishing there was more or - in the case of quiet - less
KOMANI
KOMANI
I wish she had more clothes on. Nothing sexy about a leather thong on the battlefield.
ShockingAlberto
Member
It was really good plastic surgery
Why did XOF freak out and shoot the man on fire when they followed him to the hospital in the first place
Man on Fire runs on Mantis and turns still or changes direction if Mantis shifts his focus even slightly.
Venom is prone to hallucination and was given memories of people he never actually met.
Mantis is an ocean away during the Volgin scene in Afghanistan, focused on Eli.
It's definitely a hallucination. Only way I'd reconsider is if Ocelot or Kaz acknowledged an encounter in the tapes that follow. I don't remember them saying anything.
Venom is prone to hallucination and was given memories of people he never actually met.
Mantis is an ocean away during the Volgin scene in Afghanistan, focused on Eli.
It's definitely a hallucination. Only way I'd reconsider is if Ocelot or Kaz acknowledged an encounter in the tapes that follow. I don't remember them saying anything.
Exactly. They probably just showed The Medic pictures of each figure from BB's past.
Maybe Mantis was in love with Skull Face's revenge by that point. We don't know where Skully and Mantis get a connection going.
Stereogatari
Banned
While it was cool to have Volgin, it didn't feel like it was him at all. He wasn't concious right? It was just an innate LUST FOR REVENGE?!
You got more scars coming out of it then going in!
Fakee big boss could have worked as an interesting "bonus" twist, one that came well after you beat the game and resolved the story. The problem is that it's presented to us as our "ending". As Alberto said, it doesn't re-contextualize anything, but it also doesn't provide any context for anything either. It doesn't really tie into the theme of revenge, it doesn't it tie into the theme of becoming a villain, and it certainly doesn't really tie in to the themes of words being a threat.
Therein lies my biggest problem with the game: it never, ever delves into its themes, something that, even in their dumbest moments, the other MGS games did. They talk about revenge a lot in this game, and then you never see the result of getting that revenge. They certainly achieve their revenge, but you never see how this affects anyone, big boss least of all. They were playing at it: Miller looks like he's going to snap and go paranoid on everyone, but it's never really fulfilled. His paranoia pays off: Huey is lying.
They talk about Big Boss becoming a "demon" a lot, and going to "hell", but Diamond Dogs is really a wonderful place with soldiers who act like 5 year olds and a commander who raises puppies and saves child soldiers. In fact, they subvert this even more by making Big Boss and Venom two different people, so this isn't even close to the game where you see Big Boss go evil.
There's also a lot of talk about the english language being a repressive power that dominates the world, but we never really see this other than in Skullface's rants. The game seems to agree with Skullface, given by the quote at the end of that mission, but other than that, there's no real fallout from preventing him from reaching his goal.
Therein lies my biggest problem with the game: it never, ever delves into its themes, something that, even in their dumbest moments, the other MGS games did. They talk about revenge a lot in this game, and then you never see the result of getting that revenge. They certainly achieve their revenge, but you never see how this affects anyone, big boss least of all. They were playing at it: Miller looks like he's going to snap and go paranoid on everyone, but it's never really fulfilled. His paranoia pays off: Huey is lying.
They talk about Big Boss becoming a "demon" a lot, and going to "hell", but Diamond Dogs is really a wonderful place with soldiers who act like 5 year olds and a commander who raises puppies and saves child soldiers. In fact, they subvert this even more by making Big Boss and Venom two different people, so this isn't even close to the game where you see Big Boss go evil.
There's also a lot of talk about the english language being a repressive power that dominates the world, but we never really see this other than in Skullface's rants. The game seems to agree with Skullface, given by the quote at the end of that mission, but other than that, there's no real fallout from preventing him from reaching his goal.
Yup, channeled through Mantis.
He gets effected by strong emotions and let's people act through him.
It had to have been after the hospital. Skull Face wouldn't send in XOF only to have Man on Fire kill them. MoF and Mantis were clearly rogue at that point. Skull Face was already researching them (a tape mentions him looking into the plane crash Mantis caused), and after they wiped out his strike force, he must've tracked them down in the following weeks and started exerting his influence.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Who was in charge of brainwashing Medic into thinking he was big boss anyway? Surely not Ocelot.
"We met in 1964. We were best buds, and you laughed at all my jokes. Eva gave you crabs, she is terrible. We are best friends forever. Sometimes we shower together and it's totally cool because we are bros and sometimes you need someone else to scrub your back."
I think "less" is Quiet's catchphrase.
"We met in 1964. We were best buds, and you laughed at all my jokes. Eva gave you crabs, she is terrible. We are best friends forever. Sometimes we shower together and it's totally cool because we are bros and sometimes you need someone else to scrub your back."
I think "less" is Quiet's catchphrase.
Your personal interpretation of the scene is, of course, your own, but there is little to no basis for this in the game itself. You're making some pretty huge leaps to get to this conclusion.
Ultimately, the reason we're having this discussion rests on the game's failure to do much of anything with the character at all. Other than his background importance in two scenes of a 30+ hour experience, Volgin has no function beyond that of a common household match.
Volgin deserved either to be left out of the story or to have some real purpose. As stands now, he's barely above a fan service cameo.
Unknown One
Member
We're not debating whether the character's role is relevant in the story. YMMV. What we're debating is the internal logic of Man on Fire coming to life in that scene.
And my stance is supported by the material to the best of my knowledge. Namely:
Man on Fire is powered by Mantis. When Mantis is distracted, Man on Fire stops (like in the Shaboni scene when Mantis switches briefly to Shaboni's negativity) or walks away (like in the scene when Mantis switches to Eli's negativity and follows him instead). The game clearly establishes how the Mantis/MoF connection works. Across multiple scenes.
And Mantis is with Eli in Seychelles at that point in the story. We have seen, multiple times before, how the Man on Fire simply does not work under those conditions.
We've also seen Venom is prone to hallucination.
How does that -not- seem reasonable and supported by the material to you?
The Man on Fire scene in Afghanistan. The side ops where you retrieve his body. I'm pointing out that it's a hallucination since Mantis is with Eli on Mother Base. I'm pointing out how the Man on Fire only works when Mantis is powering him; when Mantis switched to Shaboni and Eli, the Man on Fire stopped working. In that scene, Mantis is not present. Venom is hallucinating about MoF coming to life in that final scene, much like how he saw Skull Face and Paz on Mother Base.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
A miserable pile of parasites.
KOMANI
KOMANI
I don't know about directing but definitely written by Fukushima. It's up to Konami at this point.
Mantis might have charged him like a battery. It seemed like he ran out of steam shortly after reviving.
It could have been a hallucination but that didn't seem obvious.
To be fair, there's nothing to preclude Venom from later realizing, "This PTSD from being stalked by the Human Torch is getting to me."
Mantis doesn't power Man on Fire like a battery. He powers him like a plug in a socket. Remember how MoF literally froze the instant Mantis switched to Shaboni? Or how he completely turned MoF around when he started following Eli? Again, Mantis is obsessed with Eli many hundreds of miles away. The internal logic repeatedly established in the game is "no Mantis, no MoF."
ShockingAlberto
Member
Though he repeatedly switches back and forth between Venom and Man on Fire to what appears to be no ill effects on the latter.
Because the scenes you're reference actually demonstrate that Volgin is capable of moving without Mantis' control. The reason I brought up his misuse is the same reason we're debating this: the game gives us almost no information whatsoever on which to determine Volgin's capabilities. We have no idea at all as to why he froze in one instance, walked back in another and continued in a third. We can guess or infer, but thats it.
We know he can walk without Mantis and we know he wants to kill Big Boss. That's it. Everything else is conjecture.
Given the possibilities for his death, the hallucination answer is the more convoluted and more unlikely answer. Within that scene, there are no tells whatsoever as to it being a hallucination. They only two you can provide are inferences/guesses based on Mantis and his proximity.
You might be right, looking back at the scene.
Plus Kojima seems to have the most internal logic about how Mantis functions of anything in the game, so an oversight doesn't seem likely.
Considering we'll likely never know, i'm operating under this train of thought now.
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