Yeah, we discussed this earlier. BB was well-meaning when he saved the child soldiers, but he unwisely tried to give them the only life he knew. Thankfully Miller was more sensible here and helped Venom see what should be done.
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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
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The mission being called "The Truth" in a game with heavy 1984 references makes it easy for me to not sweat it. Maybe he was in a coma, maybe he wasn't. It's easier to believe he wasn't considering he says that he's been looking out for Venom for 9 years and the idea that they came out of their comas anywhere close to one another by chance is kind of goofy.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
So it begins.
The Phantom Knack.
Agreed, they balance each other out well overall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMha13rHS9g&feature=youtu.be
BB was already awake during that scene.
Rin Tohsaka
Banned
When did Miller talk about the coma?
Isn't that Knack thing basically a bunch of nanomachines?
So it begins.
The Phantom Knack.
"Relics, son."
Seen this reading twice today, for the first time - I really like it. It's so subtle.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Preeeeetty sure that in the ocelot and big boss tape ocelot expressed surprise that big boss is up and about so soon after waking up.
Also there's, you know, the scene at the beginning of Mission 46 where the doctor explicitly stated Big Boss is in a coma.
The rest of the game being what it is, I'm gonna go with "kind of goofy" on this one.
Yeah Kojima's really good at leaving important series-defining events out of the actual games.
Inferno313
Banned
PokéKong;180424806 said:
I don't think the twist is lacking thematically. One of the game's major themes, and the biggest theme of chapter 2, is the futility of revenge. Chapter 1 is about taking down Skullface after what he did to you. Chapter 2 is about the lingering emptiness that revenge leaves you with. The twist is the final nail in that idea when it turns out you aren't even exacting your own revenge, you're exacting someone else's.
I think the only problems with the ending are more on structural and narrative level. How it just happens. There's no set up, no initial reason as to why you're re-experiencing these memories. It's revealed afterwards that Venom is listening to a tape from Big Boss explaining all of this, but how did he get that tape. Why was it sent to him then, and for what reason? It all just is kind of random. They also could've done more with replaying the prologue. Either there should've been differences throughout that mission to keep things interesting, or it should've been more heavily truncated. Replaying that was a bit of a slog.
That is assuming that Venom wasn't pissed at losing everything as well 9 years ago, Kaz and the men seemed to care more about losing mother base than BB.
Venom was also the one who operated on Paz and missed the second bomb which resulted in her and Chico's deaths and the coma which cost him 9 years of his life. Then to wake up and be used as bait while the real BB leaves the scene entirely. And of course everything else that follows with DD and having to kill his own men.
So yeah, Venom too had reasons to want revenge.
And notice that the main person who pushed for the revenge angle was Miller, the cutscene after you rescue him pretty much says it all. That's why they needed Miller for the plan and it was important to rescue him because he could steer Venom in the required direction.
All of them are under the label "Truth Records" so any of them being the truth is suspect to me.
It doesn't matter I guess. We know how it ends anyway and all of the interesting stuff relating to BB wasn't in the game because we're not worthy.
Weird. I wonder if the initial plan was for "The Truth" to be from a different perspective or something so they left that animation in.
I got this cutscene at the very beginning of the game, when I had no idea simply deploying to missions and calling your helicpter spent your GMP, so I ended up spending more than I should. Never even occurred to me that a lot of people would miss it.
Sumio Mondo
Member
That seems to be his thing since MGS4 onwards. The Les Enfants Terrible project I thought might show up in one of the prequel games, but nope.
I don't know if BB willingly sacrificed the entire hospital. It's hard to say, really. He knew XOF would be after him, that much is certain, but did he know XOF would basically exterminate an entire hospital to get to him? Who knows.
As far as I can tell, the plan was to, once Venom woke up, have Ocelot meet them and get the hell out of there before XOF showed up. At some point after Venom awoke, XOF was tipped off (pretty much immediately) so they had to scrap that plan and BB had to get Venom out of the hospital himself. It seems to me like XOF getting to the hospital that soon and killing everyone was not at all according to plan. Although, again, it's hard to say.
Which brings me to a few questions:
- Who tipped off XOF that Venom has awoken?
- Who says "V has come to?" in the opening cutscene?
- Why did they kill everyone in the hospital?
- Why now? Why didn't XOF just kill them while BB and Venom were under?
As for #3, I think XOF got wind that BB was going to do his Face/Off thing, and probably decided to exterminate everyone "just to be sure" they got him. Quiet was sent to BB's known recovery room to take out the Boss himself. That still leaves the question of who was the snitch. It's also hell of convenient that XOF discovers BB's location almost immediately after he's woken up. Remember, Skull Face had probably been looking for 9 damn years.
tl;dr: I think BB and Venom were supposed to meet Ocelot and GTFO well before XOF discovered their location.
- Who tipped off XOF that Venom has awoken?
Volgin mashing with Mantis power and immense rage into the direction. he wasn't very stealthy.
- Who says "V has come to?" in the opening cutscene?
A nurse. It was the code Zero had to inform Ocelot that "he" has awoken.
- Why did they kill everyone in the hospital?
Because they're evil and mean.
- Why now? Why didn't XOF just kill them while BB and Venom were under?
They didn't know. Volgin awoke in the moment BB awoke. Zero used his personal SAS contacts, not Cipher to hide Big Boss.
Volgin mashing with Mantis power and immense rage into the direction. he wasn't very stealthy.
- Who says "V has come to?" in the opening cutscene?
A nurse. It was the code Zero had to inform Ocelot that "he" has awoken.
- Why did they kill everyone in the hospital?
Because they're evil and mean.
- Why now? Why didn't XOF just kill them while BB and Venom were under?
They didn't know. Volgin awoke in the moment BB awoke. Zero used his personal SAS contacts, not Cipher to hide Big Boss.
Wait what.
Venom is completely entitled to his revenge on Skull Face. Maybe even more than Original Big Boss, who, you know, didn't lose a hand in the MB attack/Paz bomb.
Also it's obvious Venom feels a personal responsability for not retrieving the second bomb in Paz. So he has a lust for revenge too.
Just not to the levels of Miller, Skull Face and WHOOOOOOO
Roni
Member
There is a train of thought that assumes XOF got wind of Cipher's plan once the signal was given through the phone. Since Big Boss could be anyone within the hospital, killing everyone was the only way to ensure he never escaped.
I recall one of the tapes specifically saying that Skull Face found out BB's location when Mantis caused the plane to crash in the area. While Skull Face did not yet have control over Mantis (since Mantis had gone missing), he knew at that point about the Soviet experiment and how the boy responded to negativity. So when the plane carrying Mantis crashed in the area, Skull Face searched the area to find the source of the negativity that had awakened him. This negativity was Big Boss.
As for BB and the hospital plan... I think he would know the dangers. The way the plan was presented to him -- "we'll fill the hospital with people to slow them down" -- seems intrinsically dangerous. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, and think maybe he just thought they would search room by room and not kill everyone. But we've seen how these operations work in the past. Everyone who knows something, dies. This wasn't going to be a hit where any witnesses would be left behind. For that reason, I'm confident BB knew he was putting the hospital in grave danger by agreeing to the plan.
akidnamededdy
Banned
I don't really buy this. Why would they think dude randomly waking up and bursting into screaming flames has anything to do with Big Boss? Also, didn't XOF arrive at the hospital before Volgin?
matrix-cat
Member
Who wants to see the formation of the Patriots when we can watch Big Boss go on a date with a child in her panties, though?
Ah, so Skull Face finding BB in that moment was pure luck, really.
As for the hospital plan, I'm forgetting but was the hospital filled with plants put their by Ocelot/Zero? Or were they just innocent patients. I feel like there was a tape to that effect.
I agree with him about the theme being the lingering emptiness after revenge (the ultimate "phantom pain"), but yeah, you're right -- it wasn't just Big Boss' revenge, it was the revenge of everyone who was in that chopper and on Mother Base.
Venom was sacrificed for BB's ambitions, though, and by extension so were the Diamond Dogs who had a huge target put on their heads, and the hospital that helped to "slow down" XOF.
Valid point.
Beats me. And Volgin isn't moving exactly at a gigantic pace unless he is in chase mode, at some point they probably figured out where he would end up.
Ocelot said in one of the tapes that they'd make sure the hospital was extra busy in the coming weeks, full of people. I'm assuming they're innocent patients who were reassigned to that hospital to maximize the number of body shields for BB and Venom.
OH SHIT.
itshappening.jpg
Cerny's joining Konami?
I think the game does not deserve the amount of negative comments it gets from a lot of people.
Not that it doesnt have issues, but there is a lot exaggeration involved. And yes I am talking about the story.
I think what suffers is the presentation of what it tries to say, not what it says. The game does a great job at making radical changes to how we viewed a lot of characters prior to the release of MGSV. Just as an example, the whole MGS4 ending encounter with SS and BB and 0 now has a totally different -for the better- effect.
The presentation lacks, and thats also because the side content gets in the way of just focusing on the main story and not bothering with sidetracking. It is a flaw though, I am not trying to diminish this.
But i think when the dust has settled in, and people start looking and the broader picture of what this game does for the Saga, some of the negativity might go away, like it happened with MGS2.
It could take years like mgs2. But I am willing to bet that we are going to see new threads expressing these sentiments.
I appreciate what MGSV brought to the overall saga. The lack of a good presentation makes the story a puzzle, but after you complete all the pieces, I believe the end result is a good one.
Not that it doesnt have issues, but there is a lot exaggeration involved. And yes I am talking about the story.
I think what suffers is the presentation of what it tries to say, not what it says. The game does a great job at making radical changes to how we viewed a lot of characters prior to the release of MGSV. Just as an example, the whole MGS4 ending encounter with SS and BB and 0 now has a totally different -for the better- effect.
The presentation lacks, and thats also because the side content gets in the way of just focusing on the main story and not bothering with sidetracking. It is a flaw though, I am not trying to diminish this.
But i think when the dust has settled in, and people start looking and the broader picture of what this game does for the Saga, some of the negativity might go away, like it happened with MGS2.
It could take years like mgs2. But I am willing to bet that we are going to see new threads expressing these sentiments.
I appreciate what MGSV brought to the overall saga. The lack of a good presentation makes the story a puzzle, but after you complete all the pieces, I believe the end result is a good one.
Inferno313
Banned
Yeah, true. I haven't had coffee yet this morning. Haha.
Yes, Mantis and Volgin were not yet under Skull Face's control (obviously -- why would they kill XOF if they were), but I recall the actual discovery being when Mantis crashed the plane nearby and Skull Face looked into the negativity spike that caused it, thus leading to the discovery of an awakened BB.
I don't think XOF knew about the switcheroo. Skull Face doesn't act like it, and he refers to Venom as if he had shadowed him through Snake Eater.
However, that doesn't discount that Original Big Boss himself could have had a plastic surgery. Maybe that's the real reason.
Or he didn't hate Big Boss, but the medic all the time. DUN DUN
I think it's an interesting story, and a relatively complete one, but I can totally understand someone wishing it had more beats fleshing out certain elements, and wanting more of a build-up to "The Truth." But yeah, I share your optimism that more people will warm up to the story in time.
Also, as for the hospital thing. I think the more realistic answer is Skull Face just had a mole within Ocelot/Zero's organization who was tipped off when the nurse sent the message. Remember that XOF has partial control of Cipher and information as well. He could've figured out the code phrase and tracked it's location. Makes a lot more sense then tracking a negativity spike or whatever shit that is haha.
Time to edit the Wiki pages.
"Aliases:
Liquid Snake
Liquid Ocelot
The White Mamba
WHOOOOOOO"
matrix-cat
Member
Needs more quotation marks and elaboration to truly fit the MGSV styleguide.
FOXHOUND leader Liquid Snake
Child Soldier The White "Eli" Mamba
Liquid "Master McDonnell Benedict "Kazuhira "Did you like my sunglasses, Snake?"" Miller" Snake
I have to assume Venom would have been ok with the plan if they had asked him. He was supposed to be BB's most trusted soldier on PW, and even then, BB immense charisma would have convinced him. He was already living on a sea platform following the dreams of Big Boss.
Still an asshole thing to do to a person without asking him.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Yeah definitely this. Makes way more sense than following a lumbering, flaming zombie as he slowly marched miles and miles and miles, guessing that he was for some reason heading to a hospital in Cyprus, deducing that Big Boss MUST be there, getting an entire strike team ready, mobilizing, and attacking the hospital mere moments before the giant flaming zombie shows up because apparently you forgot to look into that and secure it before launching your highly sensitive operation.
EDIT: welp guess that's what I get for assuming common sense had anything to do with this fucking game.
My theory is actually confirmed in the guidebook authored with Kojima Productions. I'll type it up -- give me one moment.
Definitely agree with what you said. I can certainly understand people's disappointment. But when you put this story together and you look at it within the entire saga it has some very significant ripple effects towards most of the main characters and events.
It makes radical changes to how you perceive the most important events that happened in the series.
It is just unfortunate that due to some poor presentation (or cutting content) there needs to be a lot of digging and putting the pieces together yourself.
Thanks.
That imo is the best part.
Kojima's biggest mistake with MGS4 was to try and explain everything.
OK, from pg. 341 of the official Piggyback guide written in cooperation with KojiPro and Kojima himself:
"After a plane crash, in which The Third Child was the sole survivor, a chain of events led the boy's mind into sufficient proximity to sense Volgin's boundless enmity for Big Boss. With this, their association was forged: Volgin, a scorched carcass imbued with an overpowering obsession to kill the man who destroyed his dreams; and The Third Child, who could facilitate his desire for vengeance. This conjunction gave birth to the creature known as the Man on Fire."
"This was also, it transpires, the means by which Skull Face learned of Big Boss' location after a nine-year search. Having received word of their curious relationship through Cipher channels under his control, Skull Face took an interest in the case of the strange child and the former Soviet colonel. This led to a momentous development. ... When Skull Face investigated the particulars of the plane crash, he discovered that the events that led to its destruction began over Cyprus: caused, Ocelot later posits, by The Third Child sensing the latent anger of Big Boss far below as his flight passed overhead. Skull Face thought this anomaly worthy of further scrutiny -- which led to his discovery of Big Boss."
Again, it's from the official guide. Kojima himself.
Inferno313
Banned
I keep reading people reference that, is there a good summary of the "scoops" included within?
unrelated but you guys want to see the real quiet streaming MGSV?
http://www.twitch.tv/stefaniejoosten
http://www.twitch.tv/stefaniejoosten
If you're interested in TPP's story, the guide is a must-own. It has a huge breakdown of TPP's story, the entire series' story, and every character in the series.
Fair enough, lolI'm going to pretend I didn't read that and go with mine, Neiteio.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Is it time to pick a name for the next spoiler thread yet? I'm still going with The Man Who Trolled The World.
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