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I am Korean.
If gender identify is largely inborn and not environmental, than stuff like this is not only useless for the end goal... It's actively damaging.
Kindergarten Teacher Bans Legos For Boys Citing Gender Equity
- Thread starter Trojita
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If gender identify is largely inborn and not environmental, than stuff like this is not only useless for the end goal... It's actively damaging.
The predictable responses to this are amusing. The article was baiting people for outrage, somewhat. But it didn't need to. The responses were still predictable. This teacher is doing better than most of the posters in here, simply by attempting to to make a difference. No change will happen on its own, especially with posters like these. Gender equality will benefit everyone, but don't pretend that very many people practice it, least of all most of the posters here. It is a pet peeve of mine when people assign roles and gender values to me, so #ImAnExpert.
I don't know that the teacher's approach is very good, but there isn't a lot of research into the best ways to promote gender equality in the classroom. Let's not play around (no pun intended)... A lot of the suggestions in this thread are even worse than what the teacher is doing. But at least she is 'doing' and not sitting on the internet 'saying'. There is some research into promoting gender neutral values to children, mainly for parents, but from my understanding, it is still pretty rudimentary. I applaud this teacher for at least taking steps. But she seemed to be aware that she's in uncharted territory when she admitted that she makes excuses to get cooperation from the students. This approach to education is a work-in-progress. Hate on the prototypes if you must, but don't hate on the final model. Not in this case.
It is such a privileged thing to me, reading comments that say this teacher is restricting the boys. Males get so much privilege in American culture. This teacher isn't actually hurting anyone. Meanwhile, girls, gay children, trans children and others are, for once, having their equality and their gender roles considered. The boys are not being hurt in any way. Kids will want you to think otherwise when they don't get their way, but she's not hurting anyone. A lot of posters in here seem to be playing dumb about their own privilege. The boys in her classroom are not suffering. A lot of posters in here are showing their outrage that this teacher is challenging the status quo because... surprise surprise... most of these posters are the status quo, haha.
It's funny to me that parents tend to (read: almost always) assign gender roles to their children, but then say to let the children decide for themselves. Children will almost always do what they are taught to fit into the culture they are raised in... boy, girl, gay, trans, other. As an adult, I know many gay and trans people who, as kids, played only with their gender-assigned toys. There is nothing biological saying boys should play with any certain thing, nor girls, and certainly nothing in evolution would assign any certain toy to any gender. You could attempt to argue that men are better builders so they should be able to play with legos (which is by all means a very weak argument, in too many ways to even get into). But that would be a theory at best which would have no end to the list of exceptions. Hundreds or thousands of years ago, none of these toys ever existed. And in all likelihood, most boys were not builders. Gender roles have actually been drastically flipped in many cultures throughout many periods.
Kids don't have adult brains and thus they lack the logic portion of the brain (and unfortunately, some adults never activate the logic center of their brains....). School is, if nothing else, meant to guide kids on the right path because they can't decide for themselves. They learn cultural values at school. Not on TV at home, and certainly not from most parents. Adults that assigned gender norms to me when I was a child (read: all adults) contributed to a lot of oppression and difficulty that I went through. To this day, almost everyone everywhere assigns values and roles to me that I reject. If I had even one teacher that was against that...
This teacher is attempting to help the kids who need it, while not really hurting the kids who don't. (Contrary to popular belief, just because a kid gets upset or cries does not mean they are actually hurt in any way). The article in the OP is baiting people to be angry at the teacher. Her approach may not be right, but truthfully, she is taking a stand and hurting no one. She is ahead of the curve, a curve that will benefit us all, but being ahead of the curve means her techniques.... kind of suck. And she is going up against a world that may not be ready for this. She will be going against parents that will get upset, but the parents may just be contributing to the difficulty their own kids are going through. At the very least, she has one thing many of those parents don't: she actually cares.
I don't know that the teacher's approach is very good, but there isn't a lot of research into the best ways to promote gender equality in the classroom. Let's not play around (no pun intended)... A lot of the suggestions in this thread are even worse than what the teacher is doing. But at least she is 'doing' and not sitting on the internet 'saying'. There is some research into promoting gender neutral values to children, mainly for parents, but from my understanding, it is still pretty rudimentary. I applaud this teacher for at least taking steps. But she seemed to be aware that she's in uncharted territory when she admitted that she makes excuses to get cooperation from the students. This approach to education is a work-in-progress. Hate on the prototypes if you must, but don't hate on the final model. Not in this case.
It is such a privileged thing to me, reading comments that say this teacher is restricting the boys. Males get so much privilege in American culture. This teacher isn't actually hurting anyone. Meanwhile, girls, gay children, trans children and others are, for once, having their equality and their gender roles considered. The boys are not being hurt in any way. Kids will want you to think otherwise when they don't get their way, but she's not hurting anyone. A lot of posters in here seem to be playing dumb about their own privilege. The boys in her classroom are not suffering. A lot of posters in here are showing their outrage that this teacher is challenging the status quo because... surprise surprise... most of these posters are the status quo, haha.
It's funny to me that parents tend to (read: almost always) assign gender roles to their children, but then say to let the children decide for themselves. Children will almost always do what they are taught to fit into the culture they are raised in... boy, girl, gay, trans, other. As an adult, I know many gay and trans people who, as kids, played only with their gender-assigned toys. There is nothing biological saying boys should play with any certain thing, nor girls, and certainly nothing in evolution would assign any certain toy to any gender. You could attempt to argue that men are better builders so they should be able to play with legos (which is by all means a very weak argument, in too many ways to even get into). But that would be a theory at best which would have no end to the list of exceptions. Hundreds or thousands of years ago, none of these toys ever existed. And in all likelihood, most boys were not builders. Gender roles have actually been drastically flipped in many cultures throughout many periods.
Kids don't have adult brains and thus they lack the logic portion of the brain (and unfortunately, some adults never activate the logic center of their brains....). School is, if nothing else, meant to guide kids on the right path because they can't decide for themselves. They learn cultural values at school. Not on TV at home, and certainly not from most parents. Adults that assigned gender norms to me when I was a child (read: all adults) contributed to a lot of oppression and difficulty that I went through. To this day, almost everyone everywhere assigns values and roles to me that I reject. If I had even one teacher that was against that...
This teacher is attempting to help the kids who need it, while not really hurting the kids who don't. (Contrary to popular belief, just because a kid gets upset or cries does not mean they are actually hurt in any way). The article in the OP is baiting people to be angry at the teacher. Her approach may not be right, but truthfully, she is taking a stand and hurting no one. She is ahead of the curve, a curve that will benefit us all, but being ahead of the curve means her techniques.... kind of suck. And she is going up against a world that may not be ready for this. She will be going against parents that will get upset, but the parents may just be contributing to the difficulty their own kids are going through. At the very least, she has one thing many of those parents don't: she actually cares.
They sure are, that's why it would have been disheartening for the teacher to see a bunch of boys and girls go straight for the lego box each break only to see the boys muscle the girls out of the way*.
*This is what really happens btw. My daughter is 4 and goes to kindy and I've dropped her off at playtime before, it's chaos.
User 73706
Banned
It's stupid to say men need a handicap, regardless you're getting your way after all.
Yeah but those women are probably just getting those degrees for their husbands and sons. How many are soccer moms?
Admiral Woofington
Member
I get that reference
SilentRacoon
Member
How is she teaching that at all? By lying to the poor kids they will get a turn to play with the one toy they want to play? By setting up gender discrimination rules for little kids?
If anything this will only help these boys general perception of their gender counterpart to be put in a negative light.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Fuck me reverse gender equality issues by the teacher in kindergarten, really?
I'd be dealing with this head on if she was teaching my daughter or son. Something about heart in the wrong place...I could rattle off at least 3-6 more effective means of promoting development and topical interest in boys or girls in the time it took me to write this post.
Talk about a severe lack of leadership, creativity and inspirational qualities.
I'd be dealing with this head on if she was teaching my daughter or son. Something about heart in the wrong place...I could rattle off at least 3-6 more effective means of promoting development and topical interest in boys or girls in the time it took me to write this post.
Talk about a severe lack of leadership, creativity and inspirational qualities.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Dumb teacher, but she doesn't really seem to have many supporters or apologists.
I could believe she was coming from a good place but her actions were misguided. Like, why not simply make the lone toy available Legos so every kid had to play with them? I'm rather disgusted at how cynical and upfront she is about lying to the boys. Good that she wants ladies to have more options, but this is a stupid way to go about it.
Anyway this whole thing already was taken care of, the school put an end to her silly practices and that's that, surprised the thread is still going.
Anyway this whole thing already was taken care of, the school put an end to her silly practices and that's that, surprised the thread is still going.
BalancedEdge
Neo Member
Count me on the Lego is already plural train. Since when does anyone ever refer to Lego in the singular? The sentences:Lego company itself states that the plural of Lego is Lego.
I have a lot of Lego.
It's fun building with Lego.
I dumped Lego all over the floor.
You can never have too much Lego.
All sound right to me. Singular would be Lego piece or Lego brick. Probably just spent to much time on mocpages.
OT: I'm all for giving kids of both genders purely Lego toy diets.
SilentRacoon
Member
If everyone had access to Lego bricks, all of this could have been avoided.
That is quite a simplification, if not completely fallacious. Here are some other variables you could consider: males are highly privileged in American culture, toys are not a necessity and millions of children do not have them, toys as we know them have not even always been around, toys other than legos are not actually hurting children (unless they're choking hazards), toys with gender-assigning values can contribute to damaging cultural values, and most of all that I already stated this teacher's approach was not great. Gender-neutral education in general is a work-in-progress. If people want to attack the early adopters, even though this will eventually benefit everyone, then by all means.
Breaking News:
The Supreme Court has ruled that white people are no longer allowed to hold public office.
Wait that doesn't sound so bad
Despite all the the hell this would raise, I think the US would instantly be a better place. It wouldn't be permanent, just until things evened out a little in terms of wealth distribution, police harassment, and discrimination.
White men make up the vast majority of people who think the only thing in the US that needs fixing is all the nonwhite people that are currently allowed to enter the US
EDIT: this is the wrong place for this line of discussion. shorry
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Gender differences are not ever going to go away, and any attempts to try and minimize or eliminate them in one sphere will almost certainly mutate or exacerbate them elsewhere. Moreover, men will never voluntarily submit to denying themselves opportunities on the basis of gender, and expecting them to do so on the nebulous basis of privilege is unbelievably naive.
Edit: Holy shit at the post above mine. White liberal guilt in concentrated text form.
Edit: Holy shit at the post above mine. White liberal guilt in concentrated text form.
Milksheikhs
Member
Why do people think playing with dolls is pointless? I worked with kids at a daycare for a year. The stories and fantasies these kids would make up with their dolls were incredibly imaginative. Also, caring for a baby doll shows empathy and compassion. I think people forget that emotional intelligence is very important as well.
Heyyy, Snowman Prophet of Doom. I remember you from the last time I was saying this stuff.
That seems pretty fatalistic. I feel like that line of thinking only supports the status quo and also empowers the people who really hate women.
And I agree, white liberals who don't feel obligated to rectify all the shit white people have caused over the last thousand years are the true heroes.
Zoe
Member
Just another point to show how out of touch she is.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
I believe what I believe on the basis of believing it to be an accurate reflection of reality, not because it does or does not empower shitheads. There is no recorded society that has failed to create moderate to sharp differentiations among two or more gender groups, and the very basis of gender identity as a legitimate sphere of the self, rather than a common delusion, rests on there being inborn cognitive mechanisms that drive people to identify with a gender group that is differentiated from another group. I'm all for eliminating artificial barriers, but I don't think equality of opportunity will ever create equality of outcome where gender is concerned, at least not in the sense that men and women will develop the same skills and interests and perspectives.
NarrowPath
Member
I have 3 boys and 3 girls. There are many dolls, trucks, Legos, etc in my household. Guess what? The girls play with the dolls BY THEIR OWN CHOICE and the boys prefer the trucks and Legos. We dont encourage or forbid either daughters or sons from playing with whatever they want. That teacher should resign.
Edit: Never mind.
No one's saying they have to, just that they have the chance. I for one celebrate differences, but I also celebrate the right to be viewed a conscious human being, with all the same rights as a conscious human being, despite those differences.
IIRC, the eugenics argument was touted as being "an accurate reflection of reality" as well. I really think it's about manually shifting your own perspectives, even if it means pretending things can get better, until the world actually changes. Things are different for women now then they were even ten years ago. You might think I'm naive or even foolish, but just because we think a problem might be unsolvable doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to fix it.
This might be irrelevant, but are you raising your daughters in a vacuum? Or do they hang out with friends and/or watch TV? Because I know I played with a ton of baby dolls growing up until I realized that boys were playing with robots and batmen and things in commercials.
Good post. It's very important to have a pretend area. Of course they do copy mom and dad with dolls, but it's their first role model.
Fusebox: Ask the teacher for a timer. That is so unfair.
Looks more like hate than empathy.
Is there any studies that show this to be the case.
How can there be a study let alone science?
"Damaging Cultural Values" is a completely arbitrary concept that can mean whatever your biases dictate.
BalancedEdge
Neo Member
I don't think the eugenics comparison is fair. A lot of arguments are made with the "accurate reflection of reality" line both good and bad. I also don't think you need to be overly idealistic to push on these issues. It's not about making people equal, it's about reflecting on what opportunities we would have wanted as young people and trying to give those to our children. Simple as that.
Edit: I know that feel Bronx-Man
Well bias is one way to put it, but you could also just look at it as contextual criteria. ie. in this study we define damage to culture as such and such. Then you can find a unbiased result that says for people who define damage to culture as x, y causes this much damage. This happens with moral issues all the time when utilitarian arguments are made. If you think people living is better than people dying option A is better than option B. Doesn't mean that A is objectively better than B in all cases, just in the case of living being better than dying.
spazchicken
Member
When you have to force it, it just isn't meant to be. This reminds me so much of the whole "lack of girls in games and games media" argument. These are kinder gardeners who instinctive gravitate towards what they like and what they like is usually not legos or videogames on the same level as boys.
People need to understand and accept the fact that on a large scale, men and women's brains and interests are different and that starts in the womb.
I don't blame her though. With exception to the cooking gear, girl toys suck.
Good points all around. I guess I'm for a kind of "collectivist justice" based on my empathy, which may prove to be misguided. I think a lot of people misunderstand that my definition of equal is basically, essentially, "everyone is allowed to be themselves.*"
Yeah, that eugenics comparison obviously isn't bulletproof, but I wanted to get people's minds playing compare and contrast either way.
I still don't think you can write off dissenters to that "fact" just yet.
* EDIT: ...to the extent that it doesn't hurt and marginalize other people, etc. etc. I know it's complicated. That's why our current legal system can be so bananas.
I don't hate myself or my race. I'm just not purposefully blind to the injustices around me and who's mainly been perpetrating them.
Shit, for a second there, I thought someone was actually taking my side.
Chiming in here,
Around a certain age there's a segregation of sex, so you assimilate what your buddy does to fit in. Notice how around 4 or 5 that they start noticing the difference but not enough to eliminate it. We all played with dolls because we want to do what we see the most, and that's being taken care of. They don't have to think about it, take care of "baby" as I take care of you.
I'd argue it's also (partially) hormonal. You'd be surprised of some of the changes that occur when switching from on set of hormones to the other. A lot of people want to argue it's all learned from society, but I think that's absolutely not true.
Hormones are fucking magic.
This. Just read some of the stories from the transsexual community.
They are influenced by their environment.
ZeroGravity
Member
There's a point where this needs to stop, and we've clearly passed it.
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