Dragon Ball Super |OT| 28 Episodes Later

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Some example of the changes:

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Are we hating the best hair in the series

Because Trunks doesn't have a stupid haircut... he has an amazing one

Everyone else has this spiky mass of black hair. Trunks switches it up and makes it look better than everyone else doing it
 
Trunks' haircut is 90s as fuck. I love it.

J-Rod said:
I hate future trunks because his arrival was the point where db's story became completely unsalvageable with the time travel garbage. And he has a stupid haircut.
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The time travel still makes more sense than Arale's village being part of the DB earth.
 
Goten is like one of (kid) Trunks' arms or legs. He has no individuality, he's just an extension of Trunks... Not that Trunks has much personality either.
 
Buu is the worst Dragon Ball arc period. It had potential until it started doing a narrative zig zag all over the place.

Buuhan/Buutenks is probably my favorite villain though. Even if his reason for existence is ironically terrible. He was intelligent, powerful, cunning, ruthless, and totally evil. The perfect DB villain.
 
Anth0ny said:
buu saga is fine

but future trunks' debut is the GOAT
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Everything from the battle with Freeza on Namek up until Trunks' debut is like, the highest high of the series.
 
Saiyan saga is the best arc in DBZ. That Vegeta vs Goku fight is basically the best fight in the whole series.

Buu has a decent second place as far as sagas goes, even tho I am not really fond of its Vegeta vs Goku fight, which is really lame and barely goes through the motions.

DiipuSurotu said:
The time travel still makes more sense than Arale's village being part of the DB earth.
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Arale occasionally splitting earth in half still makes more sense that Trunks time traveling shenanigans. He can time travel to the past, and then go back to an unchanged future? Several times, even when he has changed the past enough that it is no longer his own past???

Time travel rarely makes sense, but Future Trunks coming back to a past where Goku didn't die of a heart condition is just crazy times compared to Arale's Penguin Village and its happy sun.
 
I don't know, I always liked the Goten and Trunks relationship. It's like that friend or family member that's also a boy around your age but just a bit older. He has the newest game you don't and he knows all the cheat codes, or he knows what sex is, so you follow them and sometimes imitate them because you hope that being near them will give you those qualities that you admire.

I can relate to that.
 
Sibersk Esto said:
I don't know, I always liked the Goten and Trunks relationship. It's like that friend or family member that's also a boy around your age but just a bit older. He has the newest game you don't and he knows all the cheat codes, or he knows what sex is, so you follow them and sometimes imitate them because you hope that being near them will give you those qualities that you admire.

I can relate to that.
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There's also the implied part where Chichi and Bulma bothered to keep visiting each other so the kids could become friends. You know that Goku and Vegeta would not have bothered, and given how Gohan skipped training with Vegeta, he probably was not the one taking the kids on visits to the other house (or maybe he did, and just avoided Vegeta).
 
Yeah they've got a good dynamic.

But besides the earlier episodes of Super, they've largely been irrelevant and not as good as during the Buu saga. Which makes me sad. ):

I can also sympathize with people wanting them to grow up, 'cause man, they've been young forever.

Also I don't know where I got this title from. Is it 'cause I love Krillin?! )':
 
ElFly said:
Saiyan saga is the best arc in DBZ. That Vegeta vs Goku fight is basically the best fight in the whole series.

Buu has a decent second place as far as sagas goes, even tho I am not really fond of its Vegeta vs Goku fight, which is really lame and barely goes through the motions.
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I agree with Saiyan Saga, but are we really rating the Buu saga and its atrocious villain above the frieza saga? C'mon now.
 
Russ T said:
Also I don't know where I got this title from. Is it 'cause I love Krillin?! )':
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Probably.

Blackleg should get "Perpetually irrelevant" for his choice in characters. From multiple different shows. Haha
 
The stretch of Buu saga between SSJ3 Goku vs. Fat Buu and the Kid Buu arc is a huge lull for me; the Gotenks stuff is a drag and Gohan's return to glory lasts for about one or two episodes. But outside of that middle section, I really dig everything up to Goku returning to the dead and everything after Kid Buu appears.

Cell Saga is my favorite of the series.
 
MrRemyJe said:
I agree with Saiyan Saga, but are we really rating the Buu saga and its atrocious villain above the frieza saga? C'mon now.
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I can see someone liking more Freeza, but I have two things against it: the dullness of Namek itself, and how much the freeza goku fight extends, even on the manga.
 
SolVanderlyn said:
Probably.
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Krillin will rise.

Blader said:
The stretch of Buu saga between SSJ3 Goku vs. Fat Buu and the Kid Buu arc is a huge lull for me; the Gotenks stuff is a drag and Gohan's return to glory lasts for about one or two episodes. But outside of that middle section, I really dig everything up to Goku returning to the dead and everything after Kid Buu appears.

Cell Saga is my favorite of the series.
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I can understand the elongation of the saga throwing people off, but hooooooly shit the Cell saga (which I recently finished) does that to the millionth degree. Freiza, too, but to a lesser extent. I just kind of accept it as par for the course.
 
SolVanderlyn said:
Buu is the worst Dragon Ball arc period. It had potential until it started doing a narrative zig zag all over the place.

Buuhan/Buutenks is probably my favorite villain though. Even if his reason for existence is ironically terrible. He was intelligent, powerful, cunning, ruthless, and totally evil. The perfect DB villain.
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This is how I feel about it. Some decent ideas in there but nothing quite as solid as what came before.
 
ElFly said:
I can see someone liking more Freeza, but I have two things against it: the dullness of Namek itself, and how much the freeza goku fight extends, even on the manga.
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In this case you should find the cell saga better than the buu saga because they kept it moving at a good pace during that saga. The buu saga fights felt way more extended than the frieza ones. Not to mention at that point the buu saga pretty much almost became GT with the heavy reliance on Goku being necessary, right after they established other Saiyans and half saiyans who should have been just as capable to take care of buu. The hugest crying shame about the buu saga is all of the dead ends reached from different story threads.

Why show Mystic Gohans training and mastery only to squander it immediately afterwards? Why show kid trunks and goten master fusion only to squander it? Why would Goku master SS3, a form that burns out really fast, and then continue to mess around while combating in the form? The entire saga just felt like ideas being thrown at the wall every few episodes and no satisfactory resolution being reached from each idea and them eventually giving up and shoving Goku in there. Even the villain was a disappointment, the only scary thing about him was that he was a child with too much uncontrollable power.
 
Imagine a world where 19 and 20 were the main villains after freeza like the original plan. I can't even imagine where the plot would have gone. I can't even say that it would be good or bad since they're dispatched quickly before they get any real character.

Hell I can't even imagine the plot if 16,17, and 18 stayed the main villains, although I can at least guess that they still would have eventually all turned good.
 
MrRemyJe said:
In this case you should find the cell saga better than the buu saga because they kept it moving at a good pace during that saga. The buu saga fights felt way more extended than the frieza ones. Not to mention at that point the buu saga pretty much almost became GT with the heavy reliance on Goku being necessary, right after they established other Saiyans and half saiyans who should have been just as capable to take care of buu. The hugest crying shame about the buu saga is all of the dead ends reached from different story threads.

Why show Mystic Gohans training and mastery only to squander it immediately afterwards? Why show kid trunks and goten master fusion only to squander it? Why would Goku master SS3, a form that burns out really fast, and then continue to mess around while combating in the form? The entire saga just felt like ideas being thrown at the wall every few episodes and no satisfactory resolution being reached from each idea and them eventually giving up and shoving Goku in there. Even the villain was a disappointment, the only scary thing about him was that he was a child with too much uncontrollable power.
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Naw man, Buu saga does a lot of things better than Cell saga. For starters, I disagree that Cell kept moving at a good pace; both sagas are roughly the same length, but a lot more things happen during Buu. Android saga had the false start of the Dr Gero robot, then the twin android doing a road trip, then everyone getting into the chamber to train and then Gohan being unceremoniously declared the strongest one who had to defeat Cell.

All those things that you call "squander" I call build up. Build up to forcing Goku and Vegeta to team up and discover they are not up to the task anyway. Dismantling of the silly Cell saga idea that Gohan could ever live up to Goku.

During Buu the heroes try a lot of things to defeat Buu (almost all of them fail), use the Dragon Balls smartly, betray each other, train in various way, fail time after time. During Cell all they do is enter the chamber of soul and time twice and then going "welp turns out Gohan was the strongest" for no reason. Buu again puts Gohan as the strongest (with a training method that was obviously going to fail, since it took no effort from Gohan), but also shows that just being the strongest is not enough.

Besides, Mr Satan's arc during Buu is unparalleled in the series and my favorite non-fighting section of the series.

Buu is varied and fun where Cell is repetitive and senseless.
 
I think one of the best things I like about Buu is he's the sort of villain you can see Toriyama making rather than 'filler'/'anime' producers. It also reminds me how the maker of Broly talked about how he felt Broly was better since he looked scarier than Beerus when one of the best parts about Beerus is that he's basically the anti-thesis to a lot of the Dragon Ball movie villains. This is even evident when you look at the villain Toei was originally going to make before Toriyama got involved.
 
Buu saga was the epitome of AT making shit up as he goes along, and wth his new editor giving him more freedom than ever before he just went off the rails.
 
Zolo said:
This is even evident when you look at the villain Toei was originally going to make before Toriyama got involved.
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I've never seen this and now I'm curious!

The Silver said:
Buu saga was the epitome of AT making shit up as he goes along, and wth his new editor giving him more freedom than ever before he just went off the rails.
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Yeah, like back when Dragon Ball originally started! That's why it's so good.
 
Best thing about the Buu saga is Kid Buu. That was one hell of an end boss in terms of how menacing he was. He would be much more convincing of being the god of destruction than Beerus is.
 
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
That's basically anything after the frieza saga tho lol
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Epitome. As in it reached the apex, the top. The entire series was him making shit up, he was just a little better at masking a lot of it until Buu where it was more obvious than ever he kept changing his mind about where things should go.
 
ElFly said:
Arale occasionally splitting earth in half still makes more sense that Trunks time traveling shenanigans. He can time travel to the past, and then go back to an unchanged future? Several times, even when he has changed the past enough that it is no longer his own past???
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I actually prefer this time travel model to the usual one where time can be actually changed, since it should avoid stuff like "cyclical paradoxes" - although DBZ ended up making it overly convoluted likely due to Toriyama overlooking some stuff - Cell mentions that they could have included Trunks' cells, but didn't because they had enough Saiyans, but that would imply that in Future Trunks' timeline there was some Future Trunks who came from the future to warn about the androids, which obviously isn't correct.

Anyway, time travel resulting in split timelines isn't some Dragonball-only concept either.

http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/time-travel-the-multiverse-many-worlds-many-timelines

Noted theoretical physicist Michio Kaku (pictured below), author of Parallel Worlds and Hyperspace, writes in his newest book, Physics of the Impossible: A Scientific Exploration Into the World of Phasers, Force Fields, Teleportation and Time Travel, of three ways around the paradoxes of time travel. The first is that you simply repeat past history and fulfil the past, and that everything you do once you are back in time was meant to happen anyway, a sort of destiny.
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The third involves the universe splitting into two universes to accommodate the time traveller. His example offers someone going back in time to kill their parents, and in one timeline the people look like your parents, but are different because you exist in a different timeline.

The many worlds approach could solve all the paradoxes in two ways. First, if we imagine the timeline of our universe as a line drawn on a board, then we can draw another line to represent the universe that branches off from the first. When you go back into the river of time, the river forks into two rivers, and one timeline becomes two timelines, and so on, and so on. Say you planned to kill your own father. You go back in time and you do the dirty deed. If the river of time does indeed have many forks, this would not be a problem. “You’ve just killed somebody else’s father. In that timeline, you don’t exist, but you exist because you jumped the stream,” Kaku writes.
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Russ T said:
I've never seen this and now I'm curious!
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This is quoted from the Wiki, but it is at least sourced.

The scriptwriter Yūsuke Watanabe originally envisioned Beerus as a villainous character who infects people with evil and was the one who gave the Saiyan race their ruthless characteristics.[17] Also, Beerus originally looked like a lizard, but Toriyama changed his design entirely.[18]
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Actually, I just realized part of that may be where his imagined version in the Mr. Satan made-up story came from:

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The Silver said:
Epitome. As in it reached the apex, the top. The entire series was him making shit up, he was just a little better at masking a lot of it until Buu where it was more obvious than ever he kept changing his mind about where things should go.
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Completely missed the epitome part lol. Yea i can agree with that
 
Zolo said:
This is quoted from the Wiki, but it is at least sourced.


Actually, I just realized part of that may be where his imagined version in the Mr. Satan made-up story came from:
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Interesting.

I probably would have enjoyed that, but I'm damn glad we got the Beerus we needed.
 
DBZ time travel is mostly solid except for the one line about Future Trunks being there in Cell's timeline. You can reason it out in your head why that Future Trunks ended up failing to change anything in Cell's timeline but yeah it creates a very unneccesary convolution.
 
The Silver said:
DBZ time travel is mostly solid except for the one line about Future Trunks being there in Cell's timeline. You can reason it out in your head why that Future Trunks ended up failing to change anything in Cell's timeline but yeah it creates a very unneccesary convolution.
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It's actually fairly simple as can be seen in this crude drawing I just did:
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The reason that Other Future Trunks couldn't stop cell in his timeline was because he didn't actually become strong enough to defeat the Androids, just found their plans in Dr. Gero's lab and used them to shut the off and destroy them. So when Cell appeared the Androids were long gone but Other Future Trunks wasn't strong enough to fight Cell so Cell goes into the main timeline. We never get to see the timeline on the left, but it's mentioned.
 
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