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[Fliesen]

The fight between her and Kylo quite blatantly shows her losing until the plot ass-pulls her - resonance? - with the force, at which point she wins. The Star Wars series has always gone out of its way to show that there's a great deal more to the lightsaber duels than physical ability. Rey becoming a proficient lightsaber fighter is outta left-field and doesn't make much sense.

And don't compare the wonky choreography from the original trilogy as if it's any sort of empirical evidence. They were quite obviously technically limited by what they could portray on screen.

just trying to dismantle the weird straw man of Kylo Ren (impatient, unstable, maybe not even fully trained) having to be utterly superior - because he was trained by Luke Skywalker (a former farmboy, also never formally trained with the lightsaber) - to someone, who for over 10 years had to learn to take care of herself.

I just don't see the initial gap being all that big to make a rather balanced back and forth so inconceivable. It's no Vader vs. Luke in Empire situation, much more Vader vs Luke in RotJ. Where Vader, too, has the upper hand for the longest time.

That's fair - I can't come up with a decent explanation of why Luke would be a master saber user and teach it to his apprentices - but we don't know exactly what happened to him in the past 30 years, or tie 10-15 years before he had apprentices, so who knows. We don't know why he had apprentices either.

Maybe he "sensed a disturbance in the force" and felt the need to prepare apprentices for a future threat? No idea.

true, which is why i don't think we should dismiss what we do know (her being a good fighter) and call it bad writing / 'plot powers'

 

[phazedplasma]

It's not the same recording, it's a new one (go listen to it)

Hamill said he recorded it again and they combined it with the one from ROTJ.

Its also not a red herring. Its not tricking you at all.

 

[chesspieceface]

I like this theory.

And then in the next trilogy OH WAIT there's a new character and it was *him/her* after all that would bring balance to the force

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

I think her parents dropped her there for *something* and that this *something* will likely be a plot device in the next movies. Maybe not the identity of her parents (but still maybe), but the reason from dropping her off.

And I would bet that it's linked to Luke's Jedi Academy in some form.

Is Rey suffering some a type of amnesia? She definitely knows that she has to wait for family at Jakku but is that all she knows? She seems to be maybe ten or more during that flashback, which seems she should remember unless her mind was wiped intentionally.

 

[pringles]

The fight between her and Kylo quite blatantly shows her losing until the plot ass-pulls her - resonance? - with the force, at which point she wins. The Star Wars series has always gone out of its way to show that there's a great deal more to the lightsaber duels than physical ability. Rey becoming a proficient lightsaber fighter is outta left-field and doesn't make much sense.

It's not out of left field, she is clearly shown to be very good with the staff and considering what we've seen in the past in the series (Anakin being a great pod racer as a 4 year old, Luke acing an X-wing on his first attempt, Luke facing Darth and handling himself despite never showing any previous fighting experience etc) it's nothing out of the ordinary in the series. Kylo's also not fully-trained, he's injured AND he's trying to turn her which means he's not going for the kill.

 

[eot]

Hamill said he recorded it again and they combined it with the one from ROTJ.

Its also not a red herring. Its not tricking you at all.

I'm just wondering who he's talking to, Leia, Ben, Rey?

 

[Mikeside]

Is Rey suffering some a type of amnesia? She definitely knows that she has to wait for family at Jakku but is that all she knows? She seems to be maybe ten or more during that flashback, which seems she should remember unless her mind was wiped intentionally.

maybe she's repressing it or maybe she didn't know in the first place

 

[AtomnayaKlubnika]

I know (well I didn't know if it was the exact same recording) but it would be really cheeky to put it in the trailer just as a red herring.

As FeD.nl pointed out it was a little bit edited.

It's not the same recording, it's a new one (go listen to it)

Edit: oh, it's new recording. Interesting.

 

[Ushojax]

I think her parents dropped her there for *something* and that this *something* will likely be a plot device in the next movies. Maybe not the identity of her parents (but still maybe), but the reason from dropping her off.

And I would bet that it's linked to Luke's Jedi Academy in some form.

Maybe Max von Sydow's character has something to do with it. It seemed from his dialogue with Kylo that he knew him, he also knew about the Force, to the extent that he mentioned the 'balance'. Perhaps he is someone Luke trusted to watch over Rey, if he had looked after Rey himself then it would be a lot easier to wipe out the Jedi.

Rey mentions jokingly to BB-8 that her story is classified, it's unclear how much she knows about her past.

 

[chesspieceface]

Is Rey suffering some a type of amnesia? She definitely knows that she has to wait for family at Jakku but is that all she knows? She seems to be maybe ten or more during that flashback, which seems she should remember unless her mind was wiped intentionally.

Younger that that, 5, maybe? I don't remember much from when I was 5

And she was probably taken care of by someone that would have told her her backstory.

 

[Mr Cola]

Im not sure how I fall on it but a few notable things that just struck me as odd

Phasma isnt even a character (in this one)
That scene at the end felt very very very very very underwhelming, almost spoofish
The CGI was very bad, Snoke was terrible, it took me out of the film
Daisys acting goes from very good to really terrible to good again to stilted
The air battles were very noisy, hard to focus on whats actually going on, prequels had this, a few too many ships, they tried to give the squadron some character but it fell flat.
The music was very underwhelming, no pop to it

Loved
Poe is great, just great, glad he lived
Finn is Great
Ford was good
Carrie Fisher was just wonderful, legitimately wonderful, very surprised
Quite enjoyed the lightsaber fights, although it was alot of quick cuts at times which ruined a bit of the fluency.
Maz was cool
Kylo was good, I like how different he is with the mask on and off

 

[Fliesen]

Is Rey suffering some a type of amnesia? She definitely knows that she has to wait for family at Jakku but is that all she knows? She seems to be maybe ten or more during that flashback, which seems she should remember unless her mind was wiped intentionally.

The fact that, even after years, she claims "my family will be back, i have to wait for them" - which is something that might be said by a 6 year old who can't grasp the fact that she was abandoned on a desert planet, not so much a young woman - might also sound like something she was 'indoctrinated' with. Maybe something to dampen her desire for exploration, her wish to leave Jakoo. To keep her safe?

If there was some grand "mind trick" played on Luke that kept him wantin to stay on Tatooine, that would have contributed to his safety.

 

[Arex]

By the way, how do you like the opening shot with the new star destroyer covering the planet (moon?) I still like the ep IV opening more, this one felt a bit flat somehow..

Also, the star destroyer didn't have much screen time

*edit* also they should've put some hood on the Snoke guy.. make him more mysterious or something

 

[munchie64]

I have a hard time believing people still thinks that what happens in this movie happens just because that's the best way to serve the story.

Abrams is the absolute master of this shit.

Never said it was the best way. Just that it was what they were trying to do 100%.

 

[chesspieceface]

Also,

Ackbar.

Looked bad.

Sounded bad.

How did they screw that?!

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

maybe she's repressing it or maybe she didn't know in the first place

I could picture Rey in the next movie needing to meditate and connect with herself to try and access more of her memories if she wants to find out what happened.

 

[NekoFever]

I wonder how set in stone these details are. Unlike the prequels, the writers are not locked in to anything.

When Leia saw Rey at the end, it did seem like there was more to her look. Han gave her some very pained looks at times too.

But they didn't mention her specifically or another child generally in their private conversations about their son. Niece would explain both the knowing looks (since there is a family connection, albeit a less immediate one) and the lack of specific acknowledgment.

 

[Operations]

5/10 for me. Big disappointment from my side.

- It's a remake of ep4...The movie got 100% predictable, boring and pointless after about half of playtime. I wanted a new chapter in the saga, not the same movie again.

- Any good lightsaber duels in this?...nope. In fact there are no memorable moments whatsoever except for one death. But even that was executed poorly...

- Any cool environments? No...Seriously this is Star Wars and all we got was the most boring, generic environments possible

- Any new aliens that has a big role in the movie?...Nope...Why are they always just side characters? Seriously do something more with them, you have an entire galaxy filled with aliens and all this movie has is humans and chewie...great. At least Jar Jar was an alien...

- I hated Finn....why is he in the movie, who gives a shit about him??
Rey is nice, but she goes from knowing nothing about the force to a fully fledge Jedi in 5 seconds and she can almost beat Ren aswell.....is this a joke?

- Fuck the ending, seriously...

Thank you. Agree 100%. Also, watching Leia and Rey hug as if they knew each other for life despite meeting for the first time was fuckin bullshit (and don't give me the "it was a force moment" crap).

 

[Slaythe]

I like this theory.

She was raised as a Jedi until Luke left her though ... Anakin had nothing to do with Jedi at all. That's not comparable. She got her memories back in the movie, that was the point.

Also, "Rey kicked Kylo's ass" isn't exactly true.

Kylo not only was deeply confused emotionally after what just happened (which was another change in the script, for the better IMO because him killing Solo in a cold blooded way made him impossible to EVER be likable, while now we can feel he is just a brainwashed kid and he tried to do the right thing), but he was also bleeding out.

Chewbacca's shot hurt him quite a bit.

If Finn can hold his ground, it makes perfect sense that after even more time Kylo would lose more strength while fighting Rey.

She did great too, but we can't call that a win since Kylo wasn't at his best.

Also, I enjoyed the movie.

But I have to say I'm baffled that they ignored EVERYTHING the prequels did right. It felt more like a remake of Episode IV than a true new chapter.

Which is sad because it didn't feel like a magical space adventure, which is something the prequels did wonderfully (and that almost no movie has done since). It just felt like a check list that they were following , "we need to include that that that" , and not like a full fledge adventure.

I think adding another planet where the main plot isn't there would have helped a whole lot, to make it feel like a bigger world. Here it felt quite redundant to the point where you question how it's possible so many coincidences happen ... And no not even the prequels were that bad at it because the prequels were actually foreshadowing what was established, this is a SEQUEL where no such thing should happen.

 

[Carbonox]

I have to agree that the final scene was odd in its length. Should have ended when he turned around and pulled his hood down. Instead it became an awkward stare for too long. Was half expecting Sins of The Father from Metal Gear Solid V to start playing (you know the scene).

 

[Mr Git]

Watched it last night and saw nothing previously aside from the first initial teaser. That was definitely the right thing to do. In the pub beforehand friends were mentioning character names from the new film and I had no idea who they were talking about.

I really enjoyed it, despite its few flaws. Much, much better than any of the prequels or indeed any of the unnecessary additions to the original trilogy. That new song in ROTJ, ugh. Thought TFA managed to capture a bit of the vibe of the old films, although the repetition of scenes in that fanservicey way was a bit much sometimes.

 

[Ushojax]

But they didn't mention her specifically or another child generally in their private conversations about their son. Niece would explain both the knowing looks (since there is a family connection, albeit a less immediate one) and the lack of specific acknowledgment.

I agree, I think this movie was written with her as Luke's there is some wiggle room. It's not like we haven't had this kind of thing before with Skywalker siblings, we all know that Leia wasn't originally Luke's sister during writing of ROTJ.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

I liked Rey using her agility to take advantage of her surroundings in the duel.

 

[munchie64]

Also,

Ackbar.

Looked bad.

Sounded bad.

How did they screw that?!

He sounded like Ackbar?

 

[pringles]

By the way, how do you like the opening shot with the new star destroyer covering the planet (moon?) I still like the ep IV opening more, this one felt a bit flat somehow..

Also, the star destroyer didn't have much screen time

*edit* also they should've put some hood on the Snoke guy.. make him more mysterious or something

It was a nice play on the ANH opening. That will never be topped though. ANH opening is one of the most perfect in cinema history.

Hood on Snoke would have made him too much like the emperor. Not sure how to feel about him just yet but I think there's potential for him to be a very good villain.

 

[nynt9]

true, which is why i don't think we should dismiss what we do know (her being a good fighter) and call it bad writing / 'plot powers'

I mean, I can come up with many explanations for why Rey is good, but it's still not explained in the movie in a way that makes everything fit together, so I think it's fair game to say that it's unjustified as it is until we see otherwise.

What we see in the movie is Kylo being a badass force user who has used his saber for a while now. Rey never used a saber before for what we know. Just because her defeat of Kylo can be explained in many ways doesn't mean that the movie fails to deliver and thus has a hole in the plot (in a very literal way, there's a blank there that needs to be filled). It's not entirely unbelievable, but it's just not sold to us. If there was a hint at her having some training that was suppressed which will be explained in the future, that would be fair. But as the movie stands as an individual piece of film, it is lacking.

 

[AtomnayaKlubnika]

It's not the same recording, it's a new one (go listen to it)

Yeah, just listened to it, you can hear his actual voice in the echo when young Luke is talking. Very nice...

 

[More_Badass]

So what's the likelihood of Rey getting a double-bladed lightsaber, given her proficiency with a staff?

 

[Mr Cola]

I think Poe and Finn had the best chemistry

 

[Shari]

I love this thread and the theories I am reading, keep them coming.

For me there are things that simply cannot be explained with the time the movie has, it's already too packed.

· I like Kylo Ren but I dont like how it took away the helmet before time, that should have been reserved to the Han scene, bad choice.

· I can buy Rey not being a total lady in trouble because of her scavenger background but I just cant wrap my head around her being proficient with a lightsaber from almost the get-go, again, this is an old and very rare weapon so you can't just be proficient in a minute, Finn handling feels more realistic lol. It just doesnt work for me and there's no amount of explanation that would make me believe that she's a natural after seeing luke going through several waves of training (ben, blindfold millenium falcon, yoda).

· Want to put this on a different bullet point because for me its very important, Kylo losses HUGE charisma by being a bitch and losing a fight against an amateur, hurt or not, this is just simply not believeable and again, luke had tons more training before facing vader and a master, I really dont like how they managed this, they look Kylo look like a bitch tbh.

· Love how (I didnt watch any trailer) the movie tricked me into thinking Finn would be the jedi and shit and how it plays with me during half of the movie (he can't be, can he?) and then you see luke's lightsaber and then it fucking all clicks, love it.

· I dont think it can be done any better with this "format" but we see Han's fate from the first meeting with Leia. And I feel Harrison didn't want to play the part and they arrived to this deal :C

· Absolutely loved the scene with darth vader helmet and kylo, I know it will be tagged as fan service and shit but it's just too good.

· I would have cut the movie ten seconds before and didn't show Luke's face. Is not like it happens anything after and the cliffhanger would have even been better.

· Feels like 30-45 min extra footage would have done wonders to finish up certain scenes here and there.

I loved the movie, I loved the total blackout treatment I gave myself and I'm dying to see more.

About the theories and such I prefer to avoid going on that.

PS: I wont stand seeing Chewie without Han, da feels man, da feels.

I think Poe and Finn had the best chemistry

I agree with this.

 

[Fliesen]

Thank you. Agree 100%. Also, watching Leia and Rey hug as if they knew each other for life despite meeting for the first time was fuckin bullshit (and don't give me the "it was a force moment" crap).

uhm, no, it was a "Rey being a decent human being" moment.

They comforted one another because Leia clearly realized that Rey looked up to Han Solo and Rey thought "well, that lady that just found out that the father of her son was killed trying to bring said son back, just might need a hug.

 

[Slaythe]

Oh also, I have to say, I was absolutely unimpressed by the soundtrack.

It felt insanely flat.

Never expected the movie to fail me on that front.

Of course all is relative, it's still top quality, but there are no original memorable tune, while the prequels and OT have dozens.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

just trying to dismantle the weird straw man of Kylo Ren (impatient, unstable, maybe not even fully trained) having to be utterly superior - because he was trained by Luke Skywalker (a former farmboy, also never formally trained with the lightsaber) - to someone, who for over 10 years had to learn to take care of herself.

I just don't see the initial gap being all that big to make a rather balanced back and forth so inconceivable. It's no Vader vs. Luke in Empire situation, much more Vader vs Luke in RotJ. Where Vader, too, has the upper hand for the longest time.

Kylo didn't have to be utterly superior, it's just that the win wasn't portrayed convincingly. Like I already said, the (good) SW films have always had more going on under the hood in lightsaber battles than simply the character's physical prowess. And again, the film shows Rey persevering through her connection to the force coming out of nowhere, not through her melee combat skills. It doesn't feel earned at all.

And I really don't buy the "Luke kinda sucks" idea. I don't know how one could watch the original trilogy and not think Luke is very obviously on the path to jedi master. I don't recall any time the series suggested you needed a fight coach to be skilled at lightsaber fights/what-have-you. You needed to become skilled with the force. Luke's journey and triumphs sold me on that. Rey's didn't.

Edit:

Oh also, I have to say, I was absolutely unimpressed by the soundtrack.

It felt insanely flat.

Never expected the movie to fail me on that front.

Of course all is relative, it's still top quality, but there are no original memorable tune, while the prequels and OT have dozens.

I think this was my biggest problem of all. What happened, John

 

[Mr Cola]

I love this thread and the theories I am reading, keep them coming.

For me there are things that simply cannot be explained with the time the movie has, it's already too packed.

· I like Kylo Ren but I dont like how it took away the helmet before time, that should have been reserved to the Han scene, bad choice.

· I can buy Rey not being a total lady in trouble because of her scavenger background but I just cant wrap my head around her being proficient with a lightsaber from almost the get-go, again, this is an old and very rare weapon so you can't just be proficient in a minute, Finn handling feels more realistic lol. It just doesnt work for me and there's no amount of explanation that would make me believe that she's a natural after seeing look going through several waves of training (ben, blindfold millenium falcon, yoda).

· Love how (I didnt watch any trailer) the movie tricked me into thinking Finn would be the jedi and shit and how it plays with me during half of the movie (he can't be, can he?) and then you see luke's lightsaber and then it fucking all clicks, love it.

· I dont think it can be done any better with this "format" but we see Han's fate from the first meeting with Leia. And I feel Harrison didn't want to play the part and they arrived to this deal :C

· Absolutely loved the scene with darth vader helmet and kylo, I know it will be tagged as fan service and shit but it's just too good.

· I would have cut the movie ten seconds before and didn't show Luke's face. Is not like it happens anything after and the cliffhanger would have even been better.

· Feels like 30-45 min extra footage would have done wonders to finish up certain scenes here and there.

I loved the movie, I loved the total blackout treatment I gave myself and I'm dying to see more.

About the theories and such I prefer to avoid going on that.

PS: I wont stand seeing Chewie without Han, da feels man, da feels.



I agree with this.

The Luke scene was just strange, strange it was outdoors, strange lighting, just an old man on a creek. It was incredibly anticlimactic and if they had cut the story as Rey had sped off I would have been happier, it felt tacked on almost.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

If you seriously think that... well I don't know what to say. This film set out to revive the franchise and introduce a ton of new people who have never seen Star Wars to the universe (which Bobby Roberts show worked). It's because of both of these purposes that it probably leaned too much on the other films in the first place - go with what's safe to ensure revival, go with what works to get newbies on board.

Nothing wrong with expecting something other than a soft reboot. They chose this route and they get dinged a few points. Big deal.

 

[Ushojax]

I mean, I can come up with many explanations for why Rey is good, but it's still not explained in the movie in a way that makes everything fit together, so I think it's fair game to say that it's unjustified as it is until we see otherwise.

What we see in the movie is Kylo being a badass force user who has used his saber for a while now. Rey never used a saber before for what we know. Just because her defeat of Kylo can be explained in many ways doesn't mean that the movie fails to deliver and thus has a hole in the plot (in a very literal way, there's a blank there that needs to be filled). It's not entirely unbelievable, but it's just not sold to us. If there was a hint at her having some training that was suppressed which will be explained in the future, that would be fair. But as the movie stands as an individual piece of film, it is lacking.

A saber is just a sword. She swung it around and like Luke vs Vader in ROTJ, overpowered him with her anger. It's not like she was flipping around twirling it. Like the OT duels, it was a battle of wills and she won.

 

[munchie64]

Kylo didn't have to be utterly superior, it's just that the win wasn't portrayed convincingly. Like I already said, the (good) SW films have always had more going on under the hood in lightsaber battles than simply the character's physical prowess. And again, the film shows Rey persevering through her connection to the force coming out of nowhere, not through her melee combat skills. It doesn't feel earned at all.

And I really don't buy the "Luke kinda sucks" idea. I don't know how one could watch the original trilogy and not think Luke is very obviously on the path to jedi master. I don't recall any time the series suggested you needed a fight coach to be skilled at lightsaber fights/what-have-you. You needed to become skilled with the force. Luke's journey and triumphs sold me on that. Rey's didn't.

Remember, he wasn't trying to kill her. He wanted to turn her once he saw she had good force points.

 

[Angel_DvA]

Why people think you need something special to use à laser saber ? It's Just a sword.

 

[eot]

Kylo didn't have to be utterly superior, it's just that the win wasn't portrayed convincingly. Like I already said, the (good) SW films have always had more going on under the hood in lightsaber battles than simply the character's physical prowess. And again, the film shows Rey persevering through her connection to the force coming out of nowhere, not through her melee combat skills. It doesn't feel earned at all.

I thought the "join me" Vader parody Kylo did was pretty unearned too.

 

[munchie64]

Nothing wrong with expecting something other than a soft reboot. They chose this route and they get dinged a few points. Big deal.

OK? Read what I was responding to.

 

[Nesther]

Oh also, I have to say, I was absolutely unimpressed by the soundtrack.

It felt insanely flat.

Never expected the movie to fail me on that front.

Of course all is relative, it's still top quality, but there are no original memorable tune, while the prequels and OT have dozens.

Yup, the prequels had the better OST it seems. Stuff like Duel of the Fates delivers non-stop goosebumps. Didn't hear any similarly powerful new themes in TFA.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

Why people think you need something special to use à laser saber ? It's Just a sword.

You have watched Star Wars before, right?

 

[Mr Cola]

The music was incredibly underwhelming, serviceable, only one I really enjoyed was the end where Rey was climbing the steps.

 

[chesspieceface]

He sounded like Ackbar?

Not at all.

 

[Slaythe]

Do you have anybody you know (friends or children) that haven't seen the old star wars movies, that went to see episode VII ?

I feel like this is a decent "check list" sequel, but that it doesn't stand on its own as a movie, not enough "wonderful adventure", too redundant.

I enjoyed it myself but I can't be objective enough to judge the movie on its own ground. I tried and ended up feeling pretty negative towards it.

I'd like to know if this movie can interest and capture people's interest if they know nothing of star wars. (the prequels did a great job at doing that, as well as the clone wars cartoons)

 

[nynt9]

A lightsaber isn't just a sword. Its blade is incredibly deadly to the wielder, and the blade has no weight unlike a real sword so the balance would be totally off. It's not trivial to use if you know how to use a normal sword. And that's completely ignoring the force aspect of lightsaber combat that is based on reading your opponent and predicting their moves to gain an advantage.

 

[chesspieceface]

I thought it weird that in 30 years Han Solo never *once* tried Chewbacca's crossbow.

This is another case where they forgot that time passed between the OT and Ep 7

 

[ShamePain]

Do you have anybody you know (friends or children) that haven't seen the old star wars movies, that went to see episode VII ?

I feel like this is a decent "check list" sequel, but that it doesn't stand on its own as a movie, not enough "wonderful adventure", too redundant.

I enjoyed it myself but I can't be objective enough to judge the movie on its own ground. I tried and ended up feeling pretty negative towards it.

I'd like to know if this movie can interest and capture people's interest if they know nothing of star wars. (the prequels did a great job at doing that, as well as the clone wars cartoons)

idk, the theater was half empty when I went today. I'm interested to see the numbers.

 

[chesspieceface]

A lightsaber isn't just a sword. Its blade is incredibly deadly to the wielder, and the blade has no weight unlike a real sword so the balance would be totally off. It's not trivial to use if you know how to use a normal sword. And that's completely ignoring the force aspect of lightsaber combat that is based on reading your opponent and predicting their moves to gain an advantage.

It's not that deadly Finn got hit like crazy and survived just fine -_-

 

[Operations]

And I really don't buy the "Luke kinda sucks" idea. I don't know how one could watch the original trilogy and not think Luke is very obviously on the path to jedi master. I don't recall any time the series suggested you needed a fight coach to be skilled at lightsaber fights/what-have-you. You needed to become skilled with the force. Luke's journey and triumphs sold me on that. Rey's didn't.

Uhm, Yoda does? He mentions Luke is too old for the training. The whole younglings thing in the prequels goes on to show becoming a Jedi is not just a fast track realization of being a Force user.