Bobby Roberts
Banned
It's in this thread already.
[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens - It's True. All of it.
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
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It's in this thread already.
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
That movie couldn't be more Star Wars if it tried.
That's not a good thing.
That's not a good thing.
Spiritreaver
Member
I was the only one who seemed to laugh at the Finn not finding the thing Rey's pointing at bit.
Finn is totally me. I make the same fuck up all the time.
Finn is totally me. I make the same fuck up all the time.
half a moon
Banned
So many pages
I mean, I liked the movie, but I think the problem is the exact opposite.
I'm sure Luke told everyone the same thing re: the map
lol, what adversity?
Rey just so happens to be a skilled mechanic, ace pilot, amazing staff fighter, sword duelist and apparently the Second Coming of Force Jesus, and she has a heart of gold, no character flaws and kicks the villain's ass in two minutes?
Come the fuck on. She is the biggest Mary Sue I've seen in years.
She has no weaknesses, she's not vulnerable, she doesn't need anyone's help - seriously, what?
Calcium
Banned
I was the only one who seemed to laugh at the Finn not finding the thing Rey's pointing at bit.
Finn is totally me. I make the same fuck up all the time.
Yeah, same here. My theater was pretty quiet during the pointing bit, but they erupted at the BB-8 thumbs up.
I feel like it was established she wanted to be a pilot amidst waiting for her family to return so she could leave Jakku. She was interested in that stuff, and getting involved with BB-8 and Finn gave her no choice but to run away from the First Order anyway.
Probably the only problem I had with this movie. Luke came off as a whiny bitch but eventually rose to the occasion by the end of ANH. Rey already started off strong and competent, but her breakdown upon discovering her connection to Luke was rough and felt out of place.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
I'm much more interested in seeing where they go with this as a launching pad rather than this being a complete product or representation of what they should be creating. People mentioned that Abrams said he was rushed and I can definitely see that. The movie suffers most when it's trying to bridge the gap between films and bringing back characters. I think they could have held that off until the end and/or into the second. Really take the time to establish your new characters, rather than having them get put in stasis when the old crew shows up.
A Finn is a person from Finland. A major Finnish ethnicity is "Karelian" which sounds like "Corellian" which is the people that built the Millennium Falcon and that's important because
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Honestly the story I'm most interested to hear more of is Finn's. We know that the Jakku landing was his first combat mission, but what was his life as a stormtrooper like before that? What's it like to be raised, nameless, since early childhood as a disposable soldier? And what exactly happened that first time on Jakku? Was he a believer in the First Order before seeing the horrors of violence for himself the first time? Or was he already skeptical and worried about what he was going to have to do? There's a lot of interesting material that I want to see to understand what brought him to that point
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
Hmm? It was a complete retreat of the earliest Star Wars films, only done worse in some respects
At least BB-8 was alright
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Don't get me wrong - that was me trying to help. I have no idea where it is anymore either. Just that it's in here somewhere. I saw it happen. DON'T TELL ME IT DIDN'T HAPPEN
Is Luke in ESB a Mary Sue too?
Even so, the cast of The Raid seem really wasted in the roles they were given for TFA.
I hope they can still be part of the KoR with their masks on.
Iirc they had no obedience or behavioral issues with him prior to the mission.
Bobby Roberts was Nero.
half a moon
Banned
Found it
Here's the thing, Finn's character arc can be very cleanly and succintly summarized. Finn realizes he's doing bad things and decides to run. He's eventually decides to stop running and fight for his friends. He also has a strong thematic connection to the main villain, which is Ren.
I feel like Rey has none of this. Rey decides to stop waiting and grab her destiny?
I feel like Rey has none of this. Rey decides to stop waiting and grab her destiny?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Spiritreaver
Member
half a moon
Banned
I want audio and the full screen tho
Find that
Find that
LookAtMeGo
Member
I think you're onto something here.
riverboatgambler
Banned
In terms of plot and characters its a borderline remake, but the style of filmmaking is very different. It feels like a marvel film with the pacing, one liners and large number of extended action sequences. The original series still has the spirit of the 1970's and that era of filmmaking within it and thats the biggest difference.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
I don't disagree with any of this. Unfortunately, I can't stand Marvel films.
Force Awakening feels like Episode 4 remade for audiences with ADD
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Rey could do the Kessel run in 9 parsecs.
Luke in ESB is not a Gary Stu, no. Not really.
He's got the standard Skywalker trait of being a great pilot (dunno about his mechanical skills but I assume he has them), but he starts out in ANH as pretty damn basic with no fighting skills aside from a blaster that we never see him use, a sword that he is nowhere near skilled enough to use effectively and the ability to clear his mind - but he needs Obiwan's guidance to do it.
In ESB he begins to learn how to use the Force but he is still no match for Vader and gets bodied.
As far character flaws go, he is naive, impulsive and self righteous.
Rey on the other hand is just perfect from the get-go.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
So I'm going to read this thread now to see if people brought this up, but I had to ask..
Did anyone cringe every time a lightsaber showed up? I should specify outside of Kylo.
Even if we put all EU stuff aside, a lightsaber should still require some skill and training to use. But Finn can instantly swing it around and properly parry?
Kylo is a former apprentice of Luke fuckin Skywalker. Disregard that his training wasn't complete, he should be able to mutilate Finn instantly. Rey as well.
And for Rey to be as good as she was for the first time she ever holds a lightsaber.. it's just insane. What we're basically seeing is she's even more force sensitive than Anakin was because with absolutely zero force training she can mind block/trick, push/pull, and fight a former jedi apprentice with a lightsaber on equal grounds.
Perhaps we find out she's some super force monster who is even more chosen than Anakin, but this stuff just really took me out of it. A lot of people thought the prequel trilogy cheapened the gravitas of lightsaber combat, but man, this movie just threw it in the trash.
Did anyone cringe every time a lightsaber showed up? I should specify outside of Kylo.
Even if we put all EU stuff aside, a lightsaber should still require some skill and training to use. But Finn can instantly swing it around and properly parry?
Kylo is a former apprentice of Luke fuckin Skywalker. Disregard that his training wasn't complete, he should be able to mutilate Finn instantly. Rey as well.
And for Rey to be as good as she was for the first time she ever holds a lightsaber.. it's just insane. What we're basically seeing is she's even more force sensitive than Anakin was because with absolutely zero force training she can mind block/trick, push/pull, and fight a former jedi apprentice with a lightsaber on equal grounds.
Perhaps we find out she's some super force monster who is even more chosen than Anakin, but this stuff just really took me out of it. A lot of people thought the prequel trilogy cheapened the gravitas of lightsaber combat, but man, this movie just threw it in the trash.
Yo isn't it Secretly Super Fucked Up that Finn is a Stormtrooper gone good? Like... New Order-era Stormtroopers (at least under Hux) are baby-napped and programmed and sentenced to re-education on the smallest defect (Phasma recommended Finn for re-conditioning just because he took his hat off for a minute?). So then we go about happily blasting Stormtroopers with abandon but like inside those helmets is a bunch of sad victims of the New Order. Finn himself never even entertains the idea that maybe some other 'troopers might want out?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Finn is probably tied with Ren for my favorite character but his dialogue did stand out as the most anachronistic in the film to me. There were a few times where one of his lines had me rolling my eyes
Finn as his person and his entire arc is a reflection of Ren's. Similar but the opposite. You get cues like the First Order being Ren's choice when he was the privileged child of heroes when Finn's entire life in the First Order involves having 0 agency.
It's not that Rey's a paragon of virtue it's just she hasn't much of a character in the first place good or bad.
Look guys, the key component of any Mary Sue is that they're annoying as shit. Rey wasn't. Just for that, I think she's a good character.
I don't think overcoming conflict after a long personal struggle makes you a Mary Sue. It wasn't portrayed as easy, it was just unexpected.
I mean, what, just because she was a female character that didn't have to get saved for once, suddenly she's a "Mary Sue?"
No, she's not perfect. I'll watch the movie again and point out flaws. Give me a week. Off the top of my head-- unprepared. Inexperienced. Like Luke, yeah?
I don't think overcoming conflict after a long personal struggle makes you a Mary Sue. It wasn't portrayed as easy, it was just unexpected.
I mean, what, just because she was a female character that didn't have to get saved for once, suddenly she's a "Mary Sue?"
No, she's not perfect. I'll watch the movie again and point out flaws. Give me a week. Off the top of my head-- unprepared. Inexperienced. Like Luke, yeah?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Rey's fighting was pretty ridiculous, but I thought they did a decent job showing that Finn was scared and just sort of swinging it to block and maybe stabbing a dude
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
It felt that way with the stormtrooper but with Kylo.. he should have just instantly died. The fact he even nicked Kylo is just impossible.
Rey is hot-tempered despite herself at several points in the movie. I won't argue she could have used a bit more failure in order to round her out, but I think there's some real hyperbole at play with the criticisms. I got a decent amount of arc from her for a Star Wars movie, personally.
It doesn't hurt that I'm so steadfast with my prediction that we'll be seeing some of these characters beyond Episode IX, either; plenty of room for her to grow.
It doesn't hurt that I'm so steadfast with my prediction that we'll be seeing some of these characters beyond Episode IX, either; plenty of room for her to grow.
TheForceWithin
Banned
On Starkiller, Finn's plan should have been to try and rally some Stormtroopers to defect. Then it either fails because he's naive and the New Order are evil or he succeeds and it's a beautiful moment of hope triumphing.
It's just so dumb that they send three people to disable the shield. Endor got a damn battalion. At least bring a squad of redshirts, Han.
It's just so dumb that they send three people to disable the shield. Endor got a damn battalion. At least bring a squad of redshirts, Han.
Calcium
Banned
There is a pretty lengthy back and forth on this a few pages back. One side said it was impossible, the other questioned Kylo Ren's ability to fight at his full potential given his wound and mental state.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Unless she is a descendant of some Old Republic super jedi, she just makes no sense. She knows and can do everything. Instantly. She is basically a force being.
Yeah, thanks, going to read the last 10 or so pages now.
She has to be badgered by BB-8 to help and then almost sells the droid for food. She wants to run back home after she hands BB-8 off safely and doesn't accept Luke's lightsaber until near the end. She doesn't seem interested in fighting with the Resistance. Her relationship changes with Finn and Han. She goes from passively waiting for her parents to come back for her to seeking out things in the world.
She certainly has as much of an arc as Han Solo does in ANH.
I think I'm going to bow out of the debate, since it's getting pretty late and this is one of those fanboy debates that could go on until a participant collapses on their computer out of weariness and dehydration.
Instead, given that there are 2 main points of contention about Ray's capabilities, I will address them as best I can.
The Mind Battle
Okay, here's what we know about the force with regards to the mind: It works through it, so if someone is weak willed, they will succumb to the powers of mind suggestion. If they are strong willed, they don't. That is all the explanation we are given in the originals and as far as I can remember, since then. What Ren seemed to be doing was an elaborate version of that, battering down minds until he gets the suggested. Theoretically, his could take him a great deal of time, and is dependent on weakening his victims. For all we know, taking the information from Poe could have taken numerous attempts that we just didn't see because that'd have fucked up the pacing.
However, Ren has also been greatly strained by the movie at this point, with many doubts resting on his unstable mind. With Ray, she had just gotten in, and just woke up. She's perfectly okay, and naturally strong willed and strong in the force. Given enough time and attempts, she probably would have succumbed, but it's not so unbelievable that she would be able one of the few able to hold off one force mind attack, compared to Poe, who is also probably strong willed, but also has just seen his village exterminated, lives ruined, and knowing he's probably going to die. Poe's badass, but he's had his life flipped over in a desperate struggle for a last ditch effort that he lost in battle. Compared to him, Rey is stronger, better rested, and in better morale, while also being strong with the force, against a more unstable Ren. She wouldn't have held out forever, but it's not impossible that she could fend off one attack, but Rey managed to escape before attempt 2 could be started.
The Final Battle
A lot of people have been focused on speculating about Kylo Ren's abilities and training and fighting condition. But I think we've been forgetting one very important thing: Emotional stability is the largest key to victory in a force battle (assuming high ground isn't available). Obiwan only lost the fight with Vader not because Vader outclassed him, but because he deliberately allowed himself to take a hit so he could become a ghost that haunts Luke. He was the more emotionally stable of the two, and he was perfectly matched with Vader. And it should be noted that Luke was at the height of his power when he talked to Vader in RotJ, while Vader was at his weakest when he was torn between wanting to play the dark side part and loving his son. The emotional stability burned him up, and Luke finally bested him when he was fully focused on protecting someone he loved: his sister. Momentarily, there was no conflict there. It's only when he realized that he was his father did he put down his lightsaber, and then he was downed by the emperor's lighting. Because it was a sneak attack, perhaps, but it was also by coincidence a emotional struggle for him to decide whether to be angry and protect his sister, or be merciful and save his father.
So lets ask: How is Kylo Ren feeling at the time of the battle? Dude just stabbed Han Solo, his own dad, with his flaring lightsaber and looked into his eyes as he died and fell away. He couldn't even do it himself, he had to have his father 'help' him. If he was unstable before, what about now? I doubt that his struggle is over by any measure. If anything, he's even more anguished by the thought. The problem is that the dude has sentimentality and he knows it and he thought killing his father would kill it, but it didn't. Half the time of through the fight he looks like he's holding back the biggest pain in his face, beating his wound almost like he's punishing himself, perhaps believing that pain gives him strength.
Meanwhile, people call bullshit about Rey being reminded of the force being the key to her winning, but.....well, isn't that how it's always worked with Luke? Rey is introduced as a character looking for identity. She wants to believe that her family will come back for her, but being so dependent on a connection that will never return left her as this random scavenger in this random desert world, with no body there to be with. Her only relationship there was her bringing parts to that one scumbag. Her only identity is as a lost scavenger. Her character development has been about finding her roots as a pilot and now as a force user. That was what the entire episode with the orange lady yoda was about. And then, she constantly used the force to escape the First Order's base. So when she remembers that she is a force user, she is finally taking the mantle of her new identity as a Jedi to heart, and that is empowering....emotionally, and therefore, as far as the force is concerned, physically.
Ren is better trained and a better fighter, but he is at the absolute weakest of his abilities right now due the freshness of his patricide, while Rey has just been symbolically born anew. That's what tipped the odds in her favor.
Instead, given that there are 2 main points of contention about Ray's capabilities, I will address them as best I can.
The Mind Battle
Okay, here's what we know about the force with regards to the mind: It works through it, so if someone is weak willed, they will succumb to the powers of mind suggestion. If they are strong willed, they don't. That is all the explanation we are given in the originals and as far as I can remember, since then. What Ren seemed to be doing was an elaborate version of that, battering down minds until he gets the suggested. Theoretically, his could take him a great deal of time, and is dependent on weakening his victims. For all we know, taking the information from Poe could have taken numerous attempts that we just didn't see because that'd have fucked up the pacing.
However, Ren has also been greatly strained by the movie at this point, with many doubts resting on his unstable mind. With Ray, she had just gotten in, and just woke up. She's perfectly okay, and naturally strong willed and strong in the force. Given enough time and attempts, she probably would have succumbed, but it's not so unbelievable that she would be able one of the few able to hold off one force mind attack, compared to Poe, who is also probably strong willed, but also has just seen his village exterminated, lives ruined, and knowing he's probably going to die. Poe's badass, but he's had his life flipped over in a desperate struggle for a last ditch effort that he lost in battle. Compared to him, Rey is stronger, better rested, and in better morale, while also being strong with the force, against a more unstable Ren. She wouldn't have held out forever, but it's not impossible that she could fend off one attack, but Rey managed to escape before attempt 2 could be started.
The Final Battle
A lot of people have been focused on speculating about Kylo Ren's abilities and training and fighting condition. But I think we've been forgetting one very important thing: Emotional stability is the largest key to victory in a force battle (assuming high ground isn't available). Obiwan only lost the fight with Vader not because Vader outclassed him, but because he deliberately allowed himself to take a hit so he could become a ghost that haunts Luke. He was the more emotionally stable of the two, and he was perfectly matched with Vader. And it should be noted that Luke was at the height of his power when he talked to Vader in RotJ, while Vader was at his weakest when he was torn between wanting to play the dark side part and loving his son. The emotional stability burned him up, and Luke finally bested him when he was fully focused on protecting someone he loved: his sister. Momentarily, there was no conflict there. It's only when he realized that he was his father did he put down his lightsaber, and then he was downed by the emperor's lighting. Because it was a sneak attack, perhaps, but it was also by coincidence a emotional struggle for him to decide whether to be angry and protect his sister, or be merciful and save his father.
So lets ask: How is Kylo Ren feeling at the time of the battle? Dude just stabbed Han Solo, his own dad, with his flaring lightsaber and looked into his eyes as he died and fell away. He couldn't even do it himself, he had to have his father 'help' him. If he was unstable before, what about now? I doubt that his struggle is over by any measure. If anything, he's even more anguished by the thought. The problem is that the dude has sentimentality and he knows it and he thought killing his father would kill it, but it didn't. Half the time of through the fight he looks like he's holding back the biggest pain in his face, beating his wound almost like he's punishing himself, perhaps believing that pain gives him strength.
Meanwhile, people call bullshit about Rey being reminded of the force being the key to her winning, but.....well, isn't that how it's always worked with Luke? Rey is introduced as a character looking for identity. She wants to believe that her family will come back for her, but being so dependent on a connection that will never return left her as this random scavenger in this random desert world, with no body there to be with. Her only relationship there was her bringing parts to that one scumbag. Her only identity is as a lost scavenger. Her character development has been about finding her roots as a pilot and now as a force user. That was what the entire episode with the orange lady yoda was about. And then, she constantly used the force to escape the First Order's base. So when she remembers that she is a force user, she is finally taking the mantle of her new identity as a Jedi to heart, and that is empowering....emotionally, and therefore, as far as the force is concerned, physically.
Ren is better trained and a better fighter, but he is at the absolute weakest of his abilities right now due the freshness of his patricide, while Rey has just been symbolically born anew. That's what tipped the odds in her favor.
riverboatgambler
Banned
I think the most iconic scene in A New Hope is Luke gazing into the sky with two suns, with the John Williams score coming into the foreground. I don't think there's a scene anywhere near as good in this film. This is definitely a film of its time and I agree its not a good thing.
How is that true though? Rey is someone who is strong and independent because her situation forced her to be in order to survive. But deep down she was clearly just hoping for her parents to come back and make it all okay, basically telling herself that if she just hung on, one day everything is will magically fixed.
After meeting Finn, she is forced to confront that false hope she was clinging to, several characters interact with her specifically to move her along that path. First Han offers her a job with him, then Maz tells her about the saber calling to her and the ways of the force, and even Ren contributes by reading her emotions and putting them in context as a stranger, telling her that she knows deep down that what she wants is not going to happen. All of this happens over the course of the film, and in the end when she finally accepts her destiny, it leads her to Luke. Whatever happens after this, I don't think we can say that she didn't have that sort of journey where others influenced her and eventually she made a choice that put her on a new path in her life.
This isn't deep stuff or whatever, but it is clearly there.
Jest Chillin
Member
Probably for the best. Force users seem to do nothing but fuck it up for everyone else
We've seen what happens when either side grows and become too powerful. Jedi start to become arrogant, complacent and start to believe that they should govern, Sith lose order, run rampant and start killing each other leading to the establishment of the Rule of Two.
If KOTOR's taught me anything, it's that it's time for gray force users to step up. In fact, I can see them building Rey AND Kylo in this direction.
Pre-/KOTOR = Many sith vs few Jedi
Prequels = Many jedi vs few Sith
OG Trilogy = 2 Sith vs 2/1 Jedi
New Trilogy = ??????
As interesting as gray force users would be.. I don't want them. Not for the movies at least. A big part of what makes me love the OT is that it's firmly rooted in classic Good vs. Evil with Good being triumphant even though it should have been soundly defeated.
I feel like there's a serious lack of that lately. Everything is going gritty, grounded, shades of gray. Choosing the lesser of two evils or different perspectives at war both with good intent. Those things are fine but, personally, I want Star Wars to be for my kids what it was for me.
My dad took me to see A New Hope in theaters when the OT was re-released and about 12 hours ago I took my oldest to see The Force Awakens. I loved that I could cheer for a Pure Good against a Pure Bad alongside my son just as I had alonside my dad nearly 20 years ago.
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