Support NeoGAF

[F!ReW!Re]

One thing I was conflicted about on this movie is the choice to use Driver as the actor at all. Visually, my image of Kylo Ren was just shattered when he took off his mask. He just...looks like such a child. Not literally, but, he's so young, his face looks so normal and kinda innocent. Even his voice is soft and maybe even a bit whiny. Guy just looked like he's straight out of highschool.

At first I was like "He does not look menacing at all" But again, it's like JJ Abrams watched the Plinkett reviews, and now I see it as a parallel to how they revealed Vader to be a sickly old man. Given how his character arc is about how he isn't the heartless badass he desperately wants to be, now I think that this was a very good choice, because his general character conflict is visually represented just by that one scene where he took off the mask. He wants to be Vader 2.0 and he's just...not.

You kinda answered yourself here (I know it wasn't a question ;-)
But the whole point is to show this guy is torn. He feels the pull of the light side but is trying to desperately stop it. He wants to go full dark side mode but knows he must kill his dad. He even looks innocent/conflicted, he's looks like he's on the verge of tears. Han also takes his words for a different meaning (I'll come home with you Dad). He really is a little boy in that moment for the audience and for Han.

But that actually adds to the character and his arc, he will do more and more nasty shit in the next movie to just keep going down that Dark side path.

 

[Jarmel]

It would have been a huge anticlimax. He looks like a kid. Better for him to have unmasked in front of his main rival.

Which would have been perfect when he's literally confronting his dad.

 

[Timbuktu]

The next film needs not Poe/Finn bromance. I think Poe has more of a Han Solo presence with his optimism, cockiness and being daily likeable. Finn is more defined by having principles and sticking to them. He's the moral core of the film so I don't get people saying Finn is Han's replacement.

 

[Veelk]

Neither you nor anyone else had provided any evidence of any kind that Ren was suffering of some kind of mental anguish that compromised his ability to fight.

Okay, honest, sincere question here.

What precisely would you take as evidence? We are citing events that happened in the film itself, clear visual depictions. He beats his wound, he his facial expression and the desperation in his voice as he asks Rey that question...Do you actually need him to say "I am mentally compromised"? What qualifies as 'evidence' to you?

 

[diaspora]

Fear is a gateway drug to the dark side, but it's hate and anger that fuel it. Ren never truely moves past his fear and he tries to recruit Rey not because he fears her but because he's afraid of killing her- or the idea of killing her.

 

[Starfield]

Han Solo wlll probably return as a ghost anyways

 

[Bobby Roberts]

You know, this really doesn't inspire good feelings about Episode 8 then.

Rian Johnson is in charge of Episode 8 though. That's big.

 

[Calcium]

y- and x-wings attacking a whole planet and blowing it up

Were there Y-Wings in the movie? It wouldn't surprise me at all if I missed them in the hectic battle scenes, but I don't recall seeing one.

Apparently so considering a number of you are making factually incorrect statements.

Haha, that's awesome.

 

[kmag]

You think Rey is as bad as a YA-level wish fulfillment character? Really?

On the page she probably is, Ridley was doing some really good work to make her not only bearable but actually a character worth watching.

It was a hero's origin story where the hero didn't really encounter much ordeal or set back. She basically had the 'torture' scene with Ren but that actually turned into a triumph.

 

[Moonkid]

It would have been a huge anticlimax. He looks like a kid. Better for him to have unmasked in front of his main rival.

I reckon revealing him to be nothing but a kid would have made the father/son dynamic stronger in that scene, plus it'd make his red herring at redemption more believable. Showing it early was a small mis-step but it's alright because Driver nails the role.

 

[DeathyBoy]

This entire film you see him being a monster and underneath it, he's just a normal kid. Would have been absolutely amazing in conjunction with Han calling him Ben.

It's a different kind of reveal though, and I don't think mainstream audiences would get it. I like what we get myself... and there's a good chance Ben took is subconsciously because he has a vague remembrance of Rey. He may even know exactly who she is, and think her seeing his face would scare her into compliance. Or perhaps it's a sign he has more respect for her than a random Resistance guy like Poe.

 

[jman2050]

Okay, let's make this simple.

Beginning of the movie: Kylo gets blindsided by a blaster shot from a person that he was not aware of. He reacts instantly and stops the blaster shot with the force and goes about his business.
Near the end of the movie: Kylo gets blindsider by a blaster shot from a person that he was not aware of. He does not react at all and his opponent scores a direct surprise shot, physically impairing him for the rest of the movie.

I wonder what was the key difference in both of these scenarios was. That might be important to isolate.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Lol bottom of the page, no thank you.Well the flashback ends on Rey at the snowy forest on Star Killer so it is possible. I couldn't make out the dialogue though, I did hear something about the first child though.

Someone posted the dialog from the flashback earlier in the thread when we were discussing it.. id dig it up but im just about to hit the sack. Im actually hoping that was some foresight into the next episode. Kylo completes his training and he and the Knights of Ren "strike back" at the resistance.. sweet.

 

[Starfield]

Were there Y-Wings in the movie? It wouldn't surprise me at all if I missed them in the hectic battle scenes, but I don't recall seeing one.

I think I saw some but I'm not sure actually. I've had headaches and tearing eyes throughout the whole movie because I need some goddamn glasses.

 

[sirap]

Apparently so considering a number of you are making factually incorrect statements.

I think it's rather shallow you think Ren would have to react like a cartoon villain to signify he made his choice and was sticking to it. The dude his killed his father. No doubt he will reflect on that later, but it wasn't clouding his mind or interfering with his ability to fight, which is the entire point of the argument: that he was mentally compromised in that duel, of which there is no evidence.

Begging, pleading - both are just horribly inaccurate mischaracterisations of that exchange. Ren offered to teach her the ways of the Force as he understood them - because he had the upperhand. Maybe he was trying to deceive her to carry out Snoke's orders, or maybe he was genuine, but whatever it was, you're projecting shit that just isn't there. There isn't a frame of self doubt in Ren until Rey starts to overpower him.

Neither you nor anyone else had provided any evidence of any kind that Ren was suffering of some kind of mental anguish that compromised his ability to fight.

You keep telling me that I am wrong whilst making baseless claims and factually incorrect statements.

Pain from wounds and anger doesn't mean he is unhinged. It doesn't mean he can't fight without maintaing his form - which he obviously did.

I'm not wrong about this.

But whatever, I have to go to work so I'll revisit this topic later.

What's your evidence that he wasn't? From what I saw, he got his ass handed by a washed out stormtrooper and a scavenger. If he wasn't out of it, don't you think he could've easily force choked the two of them? All he needed to do was raise his hand and do it. His injury wouldn't have even hindered him. Face it, he fought out of anger, shame and pain. Him screaming TRAITOR was a projection of his own guilt for betraying his family.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

If you didn't pick up on Driver's acting then you didn't pick up on it, I can't make anyone see it other than pointing to everyone else who saw it too. But almost every scene with him leading up to that point was about reinforcing his internal mental conflict. Destroying rooms with his light-saber out of anger, talking to a decapitated head/helmet, feeling seduced by the light-side, being afraid he would never be as powerful as Vader, asking Snoke to guide him / tell him what to do, nearly giving Han his light-saber, etc, etc.

 

[JeffZero]

Next movie just needs an A-Wing.

And if they want to call me up and ask me to pilot it then that's cool, I guess, I mean, I can check my schedule and get back to them.

 

[Moonkid]

Someone posted the dialog from the flashback earlier in the thread when we were discussing it.. id dig it up but im just about to hit the sack. Im actually hoping that was some foresight into the next episode. Kylo completes his training and he and the Knights of Ren "strike back" at the resistance.. sweet.

The more I think about it the more I'd love it. It could be a massive in-media res for Episode 8 and still keep the idea of Rey being abandoned, except this time maybe Luke sent Rey away so that she could survive. I'll have a hunt for the audio, thanks for the heads up!

 

[16BitNova]

Threads moving at light speed, so I'm probably late, but Jeremy Jahn's spoiler review is a great watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWbbzZa0vJ4

This brings up a very good point in that when Kylo is interrogating Rey he mentions seeing an island in the middle of the ocean. This makes the theory that Rey trained there when she was young even more likely imo. I doubt he was reading his mind into the future. Usually in these mind reading things they dig into the persons past.

 

[Jarmel]

After how amazing the X-Wing footage looked, I was totally disappointed on that front. I expected a lot more and instead all we get is snippets instead of a long dog fight segment.

 

[Calcium]

Destroying rooms with his light-saber out of anger, talking to a decapitated head/helmet, feeling seduced by the light-side, being afraid he would never be as powerful as Vader, asking Snoke to guide him / tell him what to do, nearly giving Han his light-saber, etc, etc.

Some would call this evidence, others call it factually incorrect statements.

 

[Onyar]

I've got something to tell you that you don't want to hear: you're not going to enjoy the next movie, the one after that and potentially any subsequent film.

Why?

Because Episode VII represents what Disney thinks a Star Wars film should be -- scenes of high-intensity action strung together by somber moments with expensive CGI, excellent sound design and a bombastic score. Themes of at least the mainline Star Wars films will never get more complicated than the fairytale-esque presentation on display in Episodes IV-VII.

And I say this as someone who loves Episode VII.

At the end I'm agree with you, but I don't really think the sound was excellent.

And that sucks, well I guess being a Star Wars fan is done for me. Let me alone I will cry until I watch Rogue One. Then I will complain even more and will start crying again.

 

[DeathyBoy]

On the page she probably is, Ridley was doing some really good work to make her not only bearable but actually a character worth watching.

It was a hero's origin story where the hero didn't really encounter much ordeal or set back. She basically had the 'torture' scene with Ren but that actually turned into a triumph.

Well, let's see.

a) Grows up alone in the desert for twenty odd years.
b) Has to find/sell scrap for meager portions of food.
c) Waiting for someone, anyone to rescue her.
d) Pulled into a war between Resistance and First Order.
e) First person she meets worth a damn turns out to be a former Stormtrooper.
f) Meets The Han Solo, bonds with him, and watches him die.
g) Finds out she's a Jedi, gets fucking pounded with horrifying flashbacks, and told that she has to go find someone instead of them finding her.
h) Tortured by an evil Sith.
i) Has to fight said Sith using training she barely remembers.

I'd say all we're missing is confirmed her mother (father?) were brutally killed, and she's got it as bad as Luke had it in ANH. Especially given Luke never seemed that broken up that his Aunt and Uncle were cooked and eaten by Stormtroopers.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

The more I think about it the more I'd love it. It could be a massive in-media res for Episode 8 and still keep the idea of Rey being abandoned, except this time maybe Luke sent Rey away so that she could survive. I'll have a hunt for the audio, thanks for the heads up!

NP. It was just a written script of the dialog though. No audio. But thanks for brining that up. I hadnt thought about that. G'night folks.

 

[Moonkid]

NP. It was just a written script of the dialog though. No audio. But thanks for brining that up. I hadnt thought about that. G'night folks.

Night. I'm gonna watch this one last time in laser IMAX, woohoo, so maybe I could pick it up then if the script isn't illuminating.

 

[Monocle]

I reckon revealing him to be nothing but a kid would have made the father/son dynamic stronger in that scene, plus it'd make his red herring at redemption more believable. Showing it early was a small mis-step but it's alright because Driver nails the role.

Which would have been perfect when he's literally confronting his dad.

It was a tradeoff between making Rey's interrogation scene more intense and personal, or hitting the audience with a fairly predictable "wow!" moment while possibly diminishing Kylo's character by robbing him of his menace all at once.

The way it happened in the movie, we didn't have to watch cool armored Kylo get completely emasculated in front of his daddy before murdering him in a fit of pique. Instead we got to witness a more gradual disintegration, a more believable conflict, which might be less punchy, but I think it's more effective dramatically. Better for his character and his burgeoning rivalry with Rey.

 

[ultrazilla]

Ok you got me there. You know, I think it's because they actually showed Snoke's entire body up on the chair. But yeah, it's been done before in the movies.

 

[JeffZero]

After how amazing the X-Wing footage looked, I was totally disappointed on that front. I expected a lot more and instead all we get is snippets instead of a long dog fight segment.

I wanted more, too. I think I'm just naturally predisposed to taking the sort of overly "glass-half-full" approach to these things, though -- my immediate thought on this front was "well, we'll probably be getting like 15 or more movies out of the Disney deal; I can get over TFA failing to deliver on this front so long as it happens later."

Truth be told, I have taken that path with a few of the movie's shortcomings. No, it doesn't absolve this individual release from being judged on its own merits, but I really do approach this new era of Star Wars films as one big project. And with the rate of releases that we're currently looking at, I guess I can live with 2017 being the year of the first great space battle, or 2018 being the year of the first ___, and so on.

Lord knows I'll be marathoning the films over and over as I move into my thirties, anyway.

 

[DeathyBoy]

I think JJ had an impossible job, honestly. He had to bring in the old, the new, set a new visual tone, keep the action and character stuff, add complexity, and make a satisfying film. The fact I found it good and fun and entertaining is enough for now - he's started the ball for others to move faster.

 

[Moff]

Han Solo wlll probably return as a ghost anyways

That's not how the force works!

 

[Lucius86]

Saw it yesterday and absolutely loved it. For me only ESB tops it,. That I didn't expect, despite all the rave reviews.

Some key thoughts:

• All the new characters were brilliant. I like all the promotional material left Rey wielding a lightsaber out and gave the impression Finn will be our badass Jedi. The moment she grabbed the lightsaber from the snow made me want to shout out with joy.
• Particular mention for Kylo Ren. The longer the film went on, the further flawed leader he became - and I loved that. They pulled off the immature, flawed sith apprentice surprisingly well without making him feel like a spoilt brat, like Anakin in the prequels. Can't wait to see him in Ep8, just a little bit smarter, wiser and with a tasty scar to boot.
• Leia was disappointing for me. Not the Princess Leia I remember or expected. Her voice has changed too much, but what can you do - you couldn't recast the role or else all hell would have let loose with complaints
• The film was surprisingly funny! All the jokes got a smile out of me - BB8 was comedy with Finn, and those Storetroopers going "NOPE" when KR's losing his shit had the whole cinema laughing.
• Phasma was another disappointment. I hope she survived the garbage compactor, I was expecting something key with her but we got nothing to show why she's a designated leader. She's in Boba Fett territory right now
• I thought it trod too closely to ANH overall, despite benefitting from having a greater Star Wars feel for it. Death Star 3.0 with a vulnerable weak point needed attacking to justify the space battle...seen this all before.
• Luke's face at the end - brilliant. I think he's genuinely shocked and scared about the prospect of training another padawan. I was desperately hoping they weren't going to wait for his reveal in Episode 8, but adding his introduction at the end of the film gave a very satisfactory conclusion with eagerness for Episode 8.
• Having said that, I couldn't help but think Rey was holding out her hand with the lightsaber for too long! Could have done without the very final helicopter shot.
• Loved the new lightsaber battles and sound effects. These things looked and sounded dangerous.
• I thought the soundtrack was the weakest of all SW films. At no point did it strike a chord with me (no pun intended).

Will definitely go for a second viewing soon! Current ranking of the films after just one viewing of Episode VII...

5 > 7 > 6 > 4 > 3 > 1 > 2

 

[Boss Doggie]

Who

Isn't he still in The Grid?

In like Flynn. He's still stuck in the grid.

EDIT: Damn it diaspora.

Oh u

I dunno how his name is spelled officially, Flinn?

 

[Jarmel]

It was a tradeoff between making Rey's interrogation scene more intense and personal, or hitting the audience with a fairly predictable "wow!" moment while possibly diminishing Kylo's character by robbing him of his menace all at once.

The way it happened in the movie, we didn't have to watch cool armored Kylo get completely emasculated in front of his daddy before murdering him in a fit of pique. Instead we got to witness a more gradual disintegration, a more believable conflict, which might be less punchy, but I think it's more effective dramatically. Better for his character and his burgeoning rivalry with Rey.

The Rey interrogation scene emasculates him anyway as he loses and goes to whine at Snoke. Not seeing his face earlier would also make the bridge scene more tense as there would be nothing earlier to compare his reaction to.

It's like Spider-Man unmasking in that if you do it too much, the mask itself loses relevance. By saving it for one big moment instead of diluting it, there would have been a bigger response.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Oh u

I dunno how his name is spelled officially, Flinn?

Finn

 

[Aaron Strife]

Oh my god if you can't comprehend Ren's mental state during his fight with Rey you are looking for reasons to complain. Dude was fucked up physically and emotionally. Pounding his injuries and screaming at Finn. He wasn't the collected and in-charge Vader, he definitely wasn't the silent stoic Maul. The Sith as portrayed were trained and focused, Ren is just some whiny punk who got a crash course in evil from Snoke.

 

[Kölsch Bloot]

Just saw the movie and I was pretty impressed I must say, alltough...

SPOILER:

Spoiler

It pretty much felt like a ANH 2.0 or better...a movie you would get if you fuse 4,5, and 6 together.

We have...Han Solo as the new Ben Kenobi, Rey who doesn't know she's a jedi, awesome pilot 2.0, a new desert planet (Jukka = Tatooine), a new djungle planet, a new Ice planet (Starkiller base = Hoth), a new deathstar (3.0 *cough*), a new vader (lol), the falcon, the bring-down-the-shield-moment and blow something up so someone can fly inside the deathstar and blow it up, y- and x-wings attacking a whole planet and blowing it up, a rebel base on a djungle planet, a rebel control-room with dimmed lights, a new droid, a new bar with a new band singing there, shall I continue?

Other than that 9/10

You didn't just spoiler tag spoilers in a spoiler thread, did you?

 

[JeffZero]

Ugh, I need a TFA era video game literally right the fuck now, you guys and gals. You don't understand how much this makes me want to pl --

-- wait, I'm on NeoGAF, of course you understand.

 

[ultrazilla]

Lol @ the Ren defense force. Perfect mental focus? That version of Ren only exists in the trailers and fan fantasies. Dude is a ragelord choker. Search your feelings and you will know it to be true.

LMAO. The truth!

I love the character. I love that he rages and cuts up rooms and chairs and the stormtroopers be like "shit, he's raging again, better go!". It shows he's unhinged and highlights why Luke most likely failed in training him. He can't control his emotions.

Props to Adam Driver. I didn't mind him taking off the mask either(though I do like it and the voice synthesizer he uses). He's a great actor and it was good to be able to see his emotion while fighting.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Finn

All right, thanks!

So is he Force-allowable?

 

[Creamium]

Threads moving at light speed, so I'm probably late, but Jeremy Jahn's spoiler review is a great watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWbbzZa0vJ4

I agree with the Poe/Finn argument. Some people are complaining that this all went 'too fast', but in the OT Han and Luke became buddies overnight too. The thing is, Boyega and Isaac sold it. It didn't come off as fake or forced, these two instantly have a good dynamic together.

Plus, as he mentions in the vid, we didn't see this kind of chemistry in the prequels, so this Poe/Finn dynamic is something I loved, was handled well, and was missing in the prequels.

 

[JeffZero]

I actually vastly prefer Ren unmasked, but maybe I just need more time to get used to that voice synthesizer or something. But personally whenever he had the mask on I kept hoping he'd take it off. Adam Driver has a very distinctive face and his regular voice is plenty menacing anyway.

 

[Jest Chillin]

All right, thanks!

So is he Force-allowable?

Anything is possible. It's too early to tell. Hints that he could be are that Kylo Ren noticed him for some reason after the massacre of the village on Jakku and that he broke free of his conditioning somehow, which doesn't seem common among those troopers. Of course those could just be things that happened just because.

 

[half a moon]

Ugh, I need a TFA era video game literally right the fuck now, you guys and gals. You don't understand how much this makes me want to pl --

-- wait, I'm on NeoGAF, of course you understand.

http://youtu.be/nxuz4fQQOuE

 

[sappyday]

So is Poe's resurface supposed to hint that he may not be who we think it is? Or did he just reappear and that's that?

 

[Starfield]

You didn't just spoiler tag spoilers in a spoiler thread, did you?

I went for extra safe. Just like how the safety of Starkiller base was!

 

[16BitNova]

After what happened to Han, I played this on the ride home. And dear (Sith) lord, the feels...

https://youtu.be/kVuQo2x7Cso

 

[pupcoffee]

Han was done right in this film. When it started, I was expecting the negotiation scene between the 2 gangs to be too much, but the script actually pulled off Han perfectly there.

 

[sirap]

All right, thanks!

So is he Force-allowable?

It's possible, but I don't see them going with that for the sequels. If Rey is to be the main force weilding protagonist, it makes sense for her to have an ordinary, roguish sidekick/love interest to balance things out. At least, that's what the writer in me would do.

 

[Ushojax]

So is Poe's resurface supposed to hint that he may not be who we think it is? Or did he just reappear and that's that?

I think he just found a way to escape on his own and that's that. He's shown to be a resourceful character so I don't think we really need the details.

 

[Monocle]

I was poking fun at the guy who thinks Ren was mentally stable during the Finn/Rey fight.

Oh, good.