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[ryan299]

I think Landis has great ideas that all fall apart when he actually writes.

 

[Lord of Castamere]

We don't know how much Ren has trained but we know he is a competent saber wielder. Ren toys with Finn the entire fight and only gets serious when Finn actually manages to slightly wound him at which point he easily dispatches of him. He then does the same thing to Rey until she taps into the Force and downloads some new Saber techniques. Rey is never established as being adept at saber righting, she only carries around a staff which she never really uses. Hell, even in that small fight on Jakku she was mainly using her fists and legs. For them to suddenly reveal her to be a saber wielding master makes no sense.

Eh. She lived on a hostile planet for 20 years. It's not far fetched to assume she could use the staff. She never really had an opportunity to use it in the movie.

Did she even do any "new techniques"? I'd have to rewatch, but it just felt like the momentum shifted from what I saw. He was already weak as it was.

 

[The Librarian]

I love Rey and I think Daisy Ridley is fantastic, but she is a Mary Sue and that doesn't help her character for me.

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/19/10626896/star-wars-the-force-awakens-rey-mary-sue-feminist

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

Max landis has done himself no good after Chronicle in being any form of authority of saying anything about characters. His opinion is of no value , lower than any gaffer

Keep poisoning that well there, buddy

 

[jett]

Specifically about the Force, then. not the other stuff?

I'm assuming there are reasons for that which will be explained in the follow-ups. Overall, Force use in this movie was amped up, for Kylo too. Never saw Vader or Palpatine freeze a blast nonchalantly and leave it there.

Well, about the flying stuff, he already knew how to fly, and he gets his ass saved by the Millienium Falcon at the end anyway, and manages doing the deed thanks to Ghost Obi-Wan whispering sweet nothings to his ear. His entire crew gets wiped out if I'm not misremembering, he's just left for last.

 

[m0dus]

Some great new characters and actors, but the worst Star Wars film by a mile. More of an A New Hope "remake" than an actual sequel to Return of the Jedi. Really needed to show the rise of the First Order, or something, to try and fit in place because on it's own there was very little to care about in this.

The more I think about it, the worse it gets. For now, 5/10.

Edgy.

 

[crisdecuba]

Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens

Felt like that old high school crush you lusted over and thought was perfect only to see her again older at some shopping mall but now thinking to yourself how could you have been so deluded and what you saw in her. While technically a good film in all honesty I'd rather watch the prequels any day of the week.

Some incoherent thoughts and rambling on the film:

- easily the worst soundtrack of all the films. I can't remember a single notable track apart from the main theme from original.
- most of the film was like a rehash of Epsiode 4 predictable as hell, come on another Death Star!? (the prequels while shitty at least tried to be original)
- The cinemtaogrpahy while very good technically did not feel like Star Wars at all, more like someone trying to imitate it. Like Joss Whedons Firefly dressed in Star Wars clothing.
- speaking of Whedon, I hated the quips/jokes by the characters. Yes Star Wars has humour but not almost fourth wall breaking ones or wink and you get it type jokes.
- Kylo Ren was a dementor reject/whiney little bitch. They tried to give him little traits with the chest thumping and brooding emo good looking face but it just felt like they were trying too hard.
- Han Solo was his dad? Oh gosh who would have predicted that? Oh and wait he dies too *Gasp* these Hollywood writers don't get paid enough! What a crap way to kill off one of the most recognisable characters in cinema history. So telegraphed as well.
- the old cast were there just for awful fan service. Leia had too much Botox and couldn't express any emotion. Han looked like a shrivelled old dog waiting to be put out of his misery. Cheiwe didn't give a fuck, he's got a new young sexy partner to go adventuring with. Venom C3PO has become a demon and R2D2 is last years model being cast aside by the cute younger brother BB Gun.
- the new Sith Lord looked like promethues/Hobbit cgi Orc. Intimidating as a tree.
- Action scenes felt rushed. Poe was just there to look good and be a bro for Finn.
- Rey kept making funny faces everytime she did any action.
- probably the worst ending to a Star Wars film. Really? On a cliff?

Fuck man, I know George Lucas gets hate but really at least it felt like Star Wars to me. This just feels like a cheap 2D cut out verison with flashy lights. Nostalgia be damned.

I agree. Incoherent and rambling. And by and large wrong.

 

[MMarston]

So looks like I'm going for Round 2 tonight with my parents.


Too bad they really love Han Solo

 

[MrHoot]

Having Ren be a little bitch does make sense though. It explains why his bitch ass goes Dark side and why he has daddy issues.

Can't wait to see more of his early days.

I'm just super curious about how his arc will evolve. I find it already interesting that he's afraid of being "seduced by the light", like what would be his reason. And I get the feeling he will probably have an anti hero type of thing going on at some point, maybe be at odds with Snoke and the first order pretty early and just do his own thing with his knight pals/order of no quarter shovel knight style.

That and I want to know where Finn goes as well

 

[sn00zer]

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/19/10626896/star-wars-the-force-awakens-rey-mary-sue-feminist

Soooo she's Luke.

 

[SpotAnime]

Let's be clear, a good director could navigate their way past many of these plot/story issues we're mentioning here. Abrams either created them himself, or when faced with them he just fell right into them. I recognize his technical skills, as the movie looked great, but in many other ways he showed the limits of his abilities as a director.

Put Spielberg at the helm, an example I'll use because its who JJ tries desperately to imitate, and I'll bet we'd be bought in without hesitation on the character motivations and story beats.

Plus Williams wouldn't be so wasted as he is here.

I agree. Incoherent and rambling. And by and large wrong.

I thought they made many good points. I moght not agree with all of them, or to the extent they go, but they are valid complaints or observations.

 

[Anth0ny]

Ren should be crazy strong in the force though. No way would a weak force user stop a blaster beam and freeze it for 3+ minutes.

The opening scene made him look stronger than Vader ever was.

I see Ren as more of a show off than Vader. I don't doubt Vader could have stopped a blaster beam like that as well... He just never bothered.

 

[FlowersisBritish]

Why the hell not?

Once again, I reiterate. Mystical space magic that allows you to perform impossible physical feats and have near-perfect instinctual reactions to everything so long as you're attuned to it.

Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily make for a good character nor compelling situations. I get that her being able to do everything pretty amazing is obviously due to her innate attunement to the force, but I would have cared a lot more about the fight if she was kinda shitty at the force and still pulled through somehow.

Honestly, I like Kylo Ren a hell of a lot more, he's got more personality. Tries his best but often fails or comes short, plays it cool but is easy to temper, obviously skilled but still very rough. I think it be more compelling if their roles were reversed since Kylo seems to have more room to grow as a character.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

Ren should be crazy strong in the force though. No way would a weak force user stop a blaster beam and freeze it for 3+ minutes.

The opening scene made him look stronger than Vader ever was.

I totally agree with this. I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, but my impression from the opening scene was "holy shit, this is Vader 2.0."

 

[sappyday]

I agree with Max about Rey being a Mary Sue. I still like her demeanor though and a mary sue is sometimes a guilty pleasure of mine, but at the moment when you have characters like Luke who she's supposed to be a mirror (in terms of the movie) who are a lot more relatable then you just end up wanting to see more of Luke. That is the main thing I came out from watching this movie. I'm more excited of seeing Luke train Rey than I am Rey being trained by Luke.


I disagree with him entirely with Ren though.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Why the hell not?

Once again, I reiterate. Mystical space magic that allows you to perform impossible physical feats and have near-perfect instinctual reactions to everything so long as you're attuned to it.

Because then every fight with Force users comes down to who has the greater power level, like those dumb prequel fights, and not based upon the individual skill level of the user.

But do we really? Like you said the only time we see him actually beast on someone is when he is fighting Finn, a guy that probably had no melee combat training at all (I guess there are those new melee stormtroopers but considering how quickly Finn lost to one I suppose he never underwent that training), and still manages to get injured whether he is toying or not.

I do agree that it kinda seems weird that a guy trained by Luke and maybe Snoke was that bad at lightsaber combat, but in that entire forest scene he looks incredibly sloppy, he is missing swings, stabs, letting Finn get that easy blow, some of it is probably due to his injuries but some of it is definitely because of his lack of training.

Well, he was also heavily wounded. I took that whole sequence pre-power up as him toying with them all, though he wouldn't have even been touched by Finn had he not been wounded. It's a display of his arrogance, that he can take on anyone even while suffering a serious wound. The Rey Force power up takes this all away and breaks the tension along with any character development. Like I said she can tap into the Force to win but it shouldn't be to download new saber techniques it should be something that takes advantage of Ren's arrogance. A Force push that catches him off guard, a force pull which takes away his saber, a force pull of a nearby blaster which she uses to shoot him again. It should be something that gets her out of the situation but makes clear that Ren is the more powerful threat at the moment that she only just escaped from with her life.

 

[blakep267]

People don't like Rey?
WTF how can anyone not like Rey



What in the hell.

She seemed kinda bleh. Not the fault of Daisy but the character seemed boring to me. I'd say the best characters were Finn, Poe then Han. Rey seemed to be there and was kinda interesting but I really didn't. Care about anything she did as it really didn't have much effect on the story. Yea she finds bb8 but besides the fact that's she's a Jedi, she's not really central imo

 

[Shaanyboi]

Rey vs Ren fight should have been more of a run for your life sequence then a clash between force users. Maybe have it start as a 1v1 equal fight because Ren is cocky with her newly aquire force skills, but it should have quickly regressed to a "oh shit, I'm in over my head, let me get the fuck out of here".

1. With this squence, Ren wouldn't look like a total chump

2. Ren would actually have a reason to go to Luke Skywalker

3. No Mary Su

I think Disney Exe had their hand in the ending.

Rey was running from him pretty much that entire time until that moment against the cliff. It wasn't until she got her rage on at the end that she actually went on the offensive.

 

[DragonSworne]

I'm just super curious about how his arc will evolve. I find it already interesting that he's afraid of being "seduced by the light", like what would be his reason. And I get the feeling he will probably have an anti hero type of thing going on at some point, maybe be at odds with Snoke and the first order pretty early and just do his own thing with his knight pals/order of no quarter shovel knight style.

That and I want to know where Finn goes as well

I can see him having his own agenda. Remember him with the general (?) and the general said "Snoke wouldn't like that". I missed what the convo was about due to kids, but it showed that Ren does have his own will that goes at odds with Snoke.

 

[BrokenFiction]

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/19/10626896/star-wars-the-force-awakens-rey-mary-sue-feminist

Thank you for this.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Eh. She lived on a hostile planet for 20 years. It's not far fetched to assume she could use the staff. She never really had an opportunity to use it in the movie.

Did she even do any "new techniques"? I'd have to rewatch, but it just felt like the momentum shifted from what I saw. He was already weak as it was.

So did Luke and he barely knew how to hold a lightsaber let alone get out of a simple bar fight in ANH...

 

[Gabriel_Logan]

Well one thing's for sure, they wasted Max Von Sydow.

 

[DragonSworne]

Rey was running from him pretty much that entire time until that moment against the cliff. It wasn't until she got her rage on at the end that she actually went on the offensive.

I feel that they played it backwards. Have the planet breaking Save Rey not Ren.

 

[Boss Doggie]

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/19/1...y-sue-feminist

this is disgusting, a mary sue regardless of gender is bad, if anything it doesn't "empower" because it shows the only time a character is empowered is through bad writing

Naw, I like that they basically showed Kylo was not all powerful. He's the first Sith character that doesnt come of as being "totally in control super cool bad guy". But once he kills Han, not only is powerful, he has the potential to surpass Vader.

The naiveness of the new cast is clearly there to allow them to grow. Kylo is progressing just as much as the good guys are. In OG Star Wars Luke was building up to fight Vader, in the new trilogy, Rey/Kylo/Fin are all growing together, making it not clear who is more powerful right off the bat.

Rey feels straightforward though and easily jumped from her starting point, though I am curious what they'll pull through her.

 

[broncobuster]

I see Ren as more of a show off than Vader. I don't doubt Vader could have stopped a blaster beam like that as well... He just never bothered.

It's his age. Anakin in II and III is a cocky show-off, too. By the OT Vader realizes coolness comes from restraint.

 

[brandonh83]

So did Luke and he barely knew how to hold a lightsaber let alone get out of a simple bar fight in ANH...

Not sure why you're comparing when we haven't seen Rey's full arc. There could be a reason for this.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/19/10626896/star-wars-the-force-awakens-rey-mary-sue-feminist

I mean this basically says to ignore the problems with her being a well written character and just enjoy her.
Ok. Great argument.

 

[Azerare]

So did Luke and he barely knew how to hold a lightsaber let alone get out of a simple bar fight in ANH...

Yeah but he was sheltered by his foster parents/guardians. You can't say that luke and rey had the same type of stimuli.

 

[LegalEagleMike]

I can see him having his own agenda. Remember him with the general (?) and the general said "Snoke wouldn't like that". I missed what the convo was about due to kids, but it showed that Ren does have his own will that goes at odds with Snoke.

Basically Snoke just wants to make sure Luke Skywalker does not return to train more Jedi. Kylo wants to find Luke so he can kill him and prove to himself that he is greater than Vader. Kylo's fear is that he will be tempted by the light side like Vader was because of family connections.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

So

How do TIE Fighters work?

Isn't the gunman facing backwards?

How do aim?

???

 

[DarkHeartedKill]

Did anyone else love the force choke which then became a physical choking?

 

[golem]

 

[AdmiralSnackbar]

Specifically about the Force, then. not the other stuff?

I'm assuming there are reasons for that which will be explained in the follow-ups. Overall, Force use in this movie was amped up, for Kylo too. Never saw Vader or Palpatine freeze a blast nonchalantly and leave it there.

Nobody ever did a Jedi mind probe either. Vader should have been able to pull the location of the rebel base right out of Leia's head. Kylo is doing some next level stuff.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I love Rey and I think Daisy Ridley is fantastic, but she is a Mary Sue and that doesn't help her character for me. Finn is thankfully not a Gary Stu. He isn't flawless, far from it. He's manipulative and selfish, but that is mitigated by the fact he is a good person with a code to look after those he cares for. That, and his hysterical comedy, is what makes him such an endearing and lovable character.

I am invested in seeing him go forward. Rey too, but Finn more so because his path isn't as predictable.

Honestly, if Finn and Rey were like Max and Furiosa, I would have probably hated this movie. That has to be earned. They both started out in this story as young, inexperienced adolescent kids trying to figure out who they are what their place is in the universe.

When I say Max and Furiosa I just simply mean that Furiosa is the kinda the lead in that movie but it doesn't diminish max at all. They're both badass as fuck and at the top by the end, in their own way.

But I totally agree with what you're saying and that's why I'm so concerned. I liked Finn's character more than Rey (and again, I love her) and I'm worried that he will always be the marginal sidekick while she takes all the jedi glory.

I hope I'm wrong but it's concerning.

 

[DragonSworne]

So did Luke and he barely knew how to hold a lightsaber let alone get out of a simple bar fight in ANH...

Rey showed extreme skill with the staff and CQC when she was jumped by two guys trying to take BB-8. That scene showed how independent and strong Rey is because Fin tried running to save her only to find that she didn't need his help.

If we should be questioning someone light saber's skill, it should be Fin's, not Rey's.

 

[RadioactiveLobster]

So just like that, huh? was the thought in my head.

Boba Fett effect here.

She's in episode 8 so not completely thrown away.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Not sure why you're comparing when we haven't seen Rey's full arc. There could be a reason for this.

And I'll keep saying it, take those future films out of any discussion of this film. This film must stand on it's own, you cannot say "but they might explain this later." Now, I'm not saying you can't leave anything to the sequels or set anything else up for the future but main character motivations and main plot details can't just be left hanging with, "just wait for the next movie."

 

[Skellig Gra]

Ren should be crazy strong in the force though. No way would a weak force user stop a blaster beam and freeze it for 3+ minutes.

The opening scene made him look stronger than Vader ever was.

Yeah that was probably a little too much. He got progressively lamer as the movie went on.

 

[The Librarian]

She seemed kinda bleh. Not the fault of Daisy but the character seemed boring to me. I'd say the best characters were Finn, Poe then Han. Rey seemed to be there and was kinda interesting but I really didn't. Care about anything she did as it really didn't have much effect on the story. Yea she finds bb8 but besides the fact that's she's a Jedi, she's not really central imo

Besides taking in BB8, watching over her, and assisting her in getting off Jakku and back into the hands of the Resistance.

 

[sn00zer]

Who the fuck were those guys? I assume we will get a flashback of Luke cutting down Kylo's crew who I assume killed Luke's first class.

 

[OricWindstar]

I mean this basically says to ignore the problems with her being a well written character and just enjoy her.
Ok. Great argument.

I think the final paragraph sums it up nicely:

We may have reached peak Strong Female Character with Rey. Yes, she should be an extreme outlier, not a model for every female character to aspire to, just as not every male character in the movies should be Captain America or Ethan Hunt. But she should also be allowed to be as unquestionably superlative a protagonist as they are. We can't have nice things until we learn to accept the ones we've been given. So before bitching that Rey's too good to be true, ask yourself this: once in a while, isn't it nice to have something that is too good to be true?

I agree, I would have preferred she been a bit less great at everything, but she's not a poorly written character because of it.

 

[FlowersisBritish]

I mean this basically says to ignore the problems with her being a well written character and just enjoy her.
Ok. Great argument.

I think the general gist was more "We let male characters get away with this a lot more, and the amount of criticism she is going to get is going to be fairly disproportional due to her being a woman."

 

[Charcoal]

So

How do TIE Fighters work?

Isn't the gunman facing backwards?

How do aim?

???

The gunner has a screen that displays what's in front of them, along with a targeting system and reticle.

 

[golem]

Who the fuck were those guys? I assume we will get a flashback of Luke cutting down Kylo's crew who I assume killed Luke's first class.

Kylo and the other Knights of Ren

 

[MrPressStart]

To each his own, but I fucking love the movie. I can't wait to see 8. They had to introduce everybody and lay the foundation and to make it that entertaining .... Awesome!

 

[injurai]

So looks like I'm going for Round 2 tonight with my parents.


Too bad they really love Han Solo

This is about to be me in a few days.

 

[CambriaRising]

Who the fuck were those guys? I assume we will get a flashback of Luke cutting down Kylo's crew who I assume killed Luke's first class.

Snoke calls Kylo the Master of the Knights of Ren or something. I assume those are the Knights.

 

[The Librarian]

I think the general gist was more "We let male characters get away with this a lot more, and the amount of criticism she is going to get is going to be fairly disproportional due to her being a woman."

You never see people bitchin' about Captain America being too perfect.

 

[Ghostmaster]

When I say Max and Furiosa I just simply mean that Furiosa is the kinda the lead in that movie but it doesn't diminish max at all. They're both badass as fuck and at the top by the end, in their own way.

But I totally agree with what you're saying and that's why I'm so concerned. I liked Finn's character more than Rey (and again, I love her) and I'm worried that he will always be the marginal sidekick while she takes all the jedi glory.

I hope I'm wrong but it's concerning.

Eh.. but it only worked for Mad Max because he had three movies before it(yes it's not the same actor but people still had preconceived notions of the character in the new one) and was the "star" of the movie as in the title of the movie. If it was a completely new character, he would definitely have been considered a sidekick, and plenty of people already consider him a sidekick in that movie as it is.

It's hard to have and establish dual leads in a 2 hour movie.

 

[Par Score]

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/19/10626896/star-wars-the-force-awakens-rey-mary-sue-feminist

Pretty much.

A young woman beating up the cool new villain (who's actually perfectly pathetic) and being more competent than almost any man in the movie (I'd say Poe roughly equals her in the perfection stakes) was always going to lead to a backlash.