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[JTripper]

One of the criticisms really getting under my skin is the whole "Rey is just a Mary Sue" thing, made by Max Landis among others.

I think that's a horseshit thing to say and frankly, nobody would be saying it if Finn did all the same things Rey did. It didn't bother me in the slightest that she capably fought Ren or picked up on Force abilities so fast because:

1. In all likelihood, she is a Skywalker. Force powers are strong with her, and it literally "awakened" within her.

2. Given her brawl on Jakku, she clearly had fought before plenty of times, with weapons that seem like they give skills transferable to lightsaber combat. And I mean OT grounded lightsaber combat, not the stupid choreographed dance bullshit we saw in the prequels.

3. Kylo Ren is not Darth Vader. He is basically fronting, with incomplete training, an uncontrollable temper, and probably little actual combat experience that isnt against unarmed people he terrorizes. This isn't a criticism, I fucking love that they gave us a complicated and realistic character as a villain, and I think he will totally become much more of a threat.

Rey is no more a Mary Sue than countless other movie protagonists. In other genres or films, her talents here would seem bullshitty. But star wars is fantasy first and foremost, and there is nothing wrong in this context with Rey doing what she did.

I think the thing that qualifies her as a Mary Sue to a lot of people is that there weren't any apparent nods or examples to anything that might establish her as a "chose one" other than her just doing stuff. It's not enough to say "it'll eventually be explained in the trilogy" because three movies do not make up one single body of work.

For instance, in ANH, Luke is told right from the start that his father was a Jedi and a powerful force user. From that point on, it's understandable to see Luke as the chosen one no matter what he does, but the thing is he doesn't do anything well, which makes his development that much more believable. We get 0 hints in TFA of why Rey might be the new chosen one other than her doing everything to near perfection without explanation. Not even a red herring to briefly steer us in the belief that she might be related to Luke, even if that doesn't turn out to be the case in the next film. She just does things well. Even her fight with the thieves on Jakku wasn't particularly skillful. She doesn't really do anything impressive. Her family leaving her on Jakku is just too vague and her suddenly having visions and activating R2 doesn't mean anything because we're always wondering "how?" and "why?"

It sounds like I'm being harsh on Rey as a character, but even I was a little bothered by her sudden skill with the force and ability to fly the Falcon. I mean sure she says she's flown shit and probably recognizes what certain knobs do, but it's THE FUCKING MILLENIUM FALCON. And in the end, I still liked her, I just thought there are a few very questionable things about the character's background.

 

[TAJ]

Same here. I'm so happy I loved it as much as I did.


I agree with this. I didn't find Rey's rapid progress unbelievable at all. She clearly had the background for it, and factors like Kylo's instability and incomplete training completely justify the way their fight went. People are inventing reasons to complain that aren't supported by the movie itself.

The background for Jedi mind trick and telepathy? She couldn't even talk her way up from a quarter-portion to a half-portion.

 

[DarkHeartedKill]

Points 5 and 3 are definitely two of my biggest criticisms. 5 is typical JJ Abrams bad and lazy storytelling (Star Trek was horrible with this), and 3 is just...bad storytelling. I get that some people don't want scenes with senators, generals and whatever going on about shit, but this is one of the few times that exposition was needed in the movie. Screw off with that "its explained in the novel" crap

2 is whatever (comes with the territory, as they say), but 3-5 are on-point



There is a middle-ground, and it would have vastly helped. Context can be important, especially when there's a gaping gap between the periods we already know

Yeah. I would have liked to know more about the resistance and the First Order. It'd be nice if they gave a little backstory in the next movie. Many Sci Fi films typically fail to actually emphasize how huge space is, which I guess is sorta fine because if they made it more realistic it'd be kinda boring since space, as interesting as it is, has a lot of empty space. The OT had this too with the Asteroid field, asteroid fields aren't that dense as far as I remember from Science class.


One thing I don't get is when the Starkiller implodes the Star somehow just appears again, that doesn't seem right at all to me at all.

 

[Freezasaurus]

I love how Kylo's lightsaber is all sparks and gritty looking. It's clear that it was made through non-traditional methods. The sound difference between it and when they use Anakin's saber in the final fight is so apparent.

There's a nice cross-section of Kylo Ren's saber in the Visual Dictionary.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

Everybody is OP. We're seeing force abilities that I haven't seen in previous Star Wars films. Stopping laser bolts? Stealing memories?
I'm wondering if this awakening is like a rise of a more powerful generation of force-wielders

Vader read Luke's mind in Jedi.

 

[RowdyReverb]

No kidding. What a stupid argument. People literally have to pick everything apart.

There's just no way to write a female character that will please everyone.

Vader read Luke's mind in Jedi.

Yeah, but Luke was presumably actively thinking about Leia. Vader wasn't able to extract the location of the Rebel base from Leia in ANH

 

[Brakke]

Was it the entire planet though? It looked like just key parts of the surface to me as well as the shaft. Keep in mind that even though it was much larger than the Death Star, that doesn't mean much since the Death Star was only as big as a small moon anyway. So I doubt star killer is as big as a type of planet you're imagining

Dude it sucked up all the matter from a star. An ENTIRE STAR.

 

[140.85]

Just watched it and I thought it was ok. Rolled my eyes at the obvious lack of imagination and creativity with the plot, I mean, a third Death Star? Really?

Besides killing off Solo the movie was way too safe and predictable.

Repetition alone is not enough to be uninspired to me. The nazis did the same shit. They just never stopped their obsession with giant weapons. And Jedi keep using light sabers. So what?

I didn't find it any more predictable than any of the other films. Not sure how it was safe.

 

[jackdoe]

Don't be, Rian Johnson has the potential to make a worthy successor to Empire. It's IX you gotta worry about, even with the Rian script.

Colin Trevorrow is definitely the big question mark. But third movies in trilogies are almost always the weakest link and I fully expect it to be the case here.

 

[racketpunch]

They had to play it safe with the first entry and riff on the original trilogy heavily to win back people's trust after the prequel trilogy. It's as if they had to prove to viewers that those mistakes won't be repeated. I'm sure it will become its own beast with future entries.

Play it safe? Did you see the cast? I have to agree that it was very unimaginative to have another Death Star.

 

[TAJ]

Vader read Luke's mind in Jedi.

And he didn't have to stand right in front of him waving his hand in his face.

 

[meanspartan]

Do you really believe this?

Absolutely. We've had a number of films with Mary Sue male characters and while the criticism exists, it isn't to this annoying level.

The fundamental thing about an ACTUAL Mary Sue to me is that it gets on your nerves. They aren't really all that likable because of how perfect they are. Rey is intensely likable, and her abilities are not outside the realm of someone raised to fend for themselves on an unforgiving planet who also has tremendous Force potential.

 

[Speevy]

Do you guys think Mark Hamill can play Luke Skywalker as well as he needs to play him in the next films?

I mean, he's not a good actor.

 

[Veelk]

I think the thing that qualifies her as a Mary Sue to a lot of people is that there weren't any apparent nods or examples to anything that might establish her as a "chose one" other than her just doing stuff. It's not enough to say "it'll eventually be explained in the trilogy" because three movies do not make up one single body of work.

For instance, in ANH, Luke is told right from the start that his father was a Jedi and a powerful force user. From that point on, it's understandable to see Luke as the chosen one no matter what he does, but the thing is he doesn't do anything well, which makes his development that much more believable. We get 0 hints in TFA of why Rey might be the new chosen one. Not even a red herring to briefly steer us in the belief that she might be related to Luke, even if that doesn't turn out to be the case in the next film. She does just things well. Even her fight with the thieves on Jakku wasn't particularly skillful. She doesn't really do anything impressive. Her family leaving her on Jakku is just too vague and her suddenly having visions and activating R2 doesn't mean anything because we're always wondering "how?" and "why?"

That's exactly what happens though. Rey doesn't do any force related stuff until the light saber hallucination, and then is told by Orange Lady Yoda that she is strong in the force. Her first major instance of using the force is after she finds out and is told she's a strong in it.

Though according to your reasoning, it's pretty funny how people writhe midiclorians if they demand that there is a genetic and verifiable answer to how the force works. If all that is needed for Rey to have her force justified is a parental lineage component, then they evidently want a midiclorian count.

 

[140.85]

Dude it sucked up all the matter from a star. An ENTIRE STAR.

Uh, and? That doesn't tell us much about the planets size or how much of the planet was weaponized.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

From that point on, it's understandable to see Luke as the chosen one no matter what he does, but the thing is he doesn't do anything well, which makes his development that much more believable.

He outlasted pretty much every pilot in the assault on the Death Star despite having no combat training. He also shoots lots of Stormtroopers despite not being a soldier.

 

[More_Badass]

I think the thing that qualifies her as a Mary Sue to a lot of people is that there weren't any apparent nods or examples to anything that might establish her as a "chose one" other than her just doing stuff. It's not enough to say "it'll eventually be explained in the trilogy" because three movies do not make up one single body of work.

For instance, in ANH, Luke is told right from the start that his father was a Jedi and a powerful force user. From that point on, it's understandable to see Luke as the chosen one no matter what he does, but the thing is he doesn't do anything well, which makes his development that much more believable. We get 0 hints in TFA of why Rey might be the new chosen one. Not even a red herring to briefly steer us in the belief that she might be related to Luke, even if that doesn't turn out to be the case in the next film. She does just things well.

What? The movie is constantly giving hints. Her naturally just being good at stuff is obviously her being innately in tune with the Force. The flashback. Ren's comments about her. Han's guilty look when she comments on the lush greenery of the planet (as if he knows about her). The lightsaber calling to her. Her quick mastery of the Force

 

[Ether_Snake]

I think the idea is that while Luke is there to balance Snoke's force, there was no one to balance Kylo's, hence Rey awakened.

Maybe the force tries to balance itself somehow. Maybe Luke will have discovered something like that at the temple. It could explain why Rey is OP.

 

[Brakke]

Uh, and? That doesn't tell us much about the planets size or how much of the planet was weaponized.

Do you think all that starstuff fits in like a grain silo?

 

[Valjean Lafitte]

Do you guys think Mark Hamill can play Luke Skywalker as well as he needs to play him in the next films?

I mean, he's not a good actor.

If you have to ask whether Mark Hamill can act well enough to play Luke Skywalker, maybe Star Wars isn't for you.

 

[Clov]

Just got back from seeing it. Loved it! It hit a lot of the same beats as the 1977 original, but I was okay with that. It just really felt like a Star Wars movie, and that was just what I needed to restore my faith in the series. Loved the new characters too, even though Kylo Ren is a huge dork. Looking forward to Episode VIII!

 

[Jarmel]

They intentionally designed Rey to be OP:

http://imgur.com/a/RcqX6

On the other hand, I would love to see this in upcoming episodes.

hahahaha what is this shit

 

[TAJ]

He outlasted pretty much every pilot in the assault on the Death Star despite having no combat training. He also shoots lots of Stormtroopers despite not being a soldier.

He had a lot of experience piloting an armed aircraft. He just didn't have experience getting shot at.

hahahaha what is this shit

A lightsaber can slice apart a Star Destroyer but not Kylo Ren's skull.

 

[Speevy]

If you have to ask whether Mark Hamill can act well enough to play Luke Skywalker, maybe Star Wars isn't for you.

Uh...that's not what I meant.

The role clearly demands more than it did in the 70s and 80s, and he's surrounded by some outstanding actors.

 

[JTripper]

That's exactly what happens though. Rey doesn't do any force related stuff until the light saber hallucination, and then is told by Orange Lady Yoda that she is strong in the force. Her first major instance of using the force is after she finds out and is told she's a strong in it.

Luke was told he can use the force but he still sucked.

Anakin in Episode 1 was told his midichlorian count was mad high, which is basically the same as Rey being told she's mad strong with the force.

 

[LegalEagleMike]

Do you think all that starstuff fits in like a grain silo?

I would assume that it is compressed before being fired.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

Do you guys think Mark Hamill can play Luke Skywalker as well as he needs to play him in the next films?

I mean, he's not a good actor.

Bullshit

 

[CrichtonKicks]

Yeah, but Luke was presumably actively thinking about Leia. Vader wasn't able to extract the location of the Rebel base from Leia in ANH

Only because Lucas hadn't thought up that power when he wrote ANH. Otherwise you can damn well guess that the Rebel base is on Leia's mind when someone asks her "Tell us the location of the Rebel Base!"

The movies have a long history of "adding powers" as they go. Force jump appears in Empire as does bolt deflecting. Then Force Lightning and mind reading in RotJ.

He had a lot of experience piloting an armed aircraft. He just didn't have experience getting shot at.

That's like saying hunting a deer makes you ready to be a Marine.

Uh...that's not what I meant.

The role clearly demands more than it did in the 70s and 80s, and he's surrounded by some outstanding actors.

Hamill is a damn good actor. His whole career isn't just playing Luke Skywalker you know.

 

[Vegito]

I can finally enter this thread! just got back from seeing holy fuck, thats the mother of all cliffhangers!

 

[meanspartan]

What? The movie is constantly giving hints. Her naturally just being good at stuff is obviously her being innately in tune with the Force. The flashback. Ren's comments about her. Han's guilty look when she comments on the lush greenery of the planet (as if he knows about her). The lightsaber calling to her. Her quick mastery of the Force

It's the fucking prequels and their stupid fucking Jedi classrooms. That is the root of this Mary Sue criticism.

People are thinking "how did she do the mind trick?! She didn't take Mind Trick class yet!"

Forgetting entirely that Luke basically pulled off the impossible in ANH with a blind shot thanks to his newly discovered Force abilities. And Rey had a much tougher upbringing than Luke, she had to survive basically on her own. Tatooine is no picnic but Luke had family looking out for him and Obi Wan (from afar anyway).

I dunno...I think it's a bullshit lazy criticism.

 

[TheKaeptain]

Luke uses the force to blow up the Death Star while piloting a fighter he never used before that day.

 

[AxelFoley]

Dude it sucked up all the matter from a star. An ENTIRE STAR.

Now that you got me thinking of that, how could the Starkiller suck up all the matter from a star? As huge as the Starkiller was, it was still vastly dwarfed by that star. It's not like it was a black hole. Or...was it powered by one?

 

[munchie64]

Do you guys think Mark Hamill can play Luke Skywalker as well as he needs to play him in the next films?

I mean, he's not a good actor.

That's not true at all.

 

[Bishop89]

anyone uploaded footage of the ending? (Luke)

So badly wanna see that again.

Also I just got to say, Harrison really killed it in this.

He actually put some effort into this role unlike most of his work in the past decade

 

[JeffZero]

Saw it for the second time. Smaller group.

Rey continues to be excellent.

 

[PBalfredo]

Saw it a second time, even better than the first time!

I also read the vehicle cross section book that had a crazy amount of info about the governments. So in the book it mentions that the new class of star destroyer is a violation of the weapons treaty the republic had with the first order. which means the first order is a legal government entity recognized by the republic.

The first order was formed in the "unknown territories", this is where they built Starkiller base, trained all the children and builtall their ships to hide it from the republic. They don't have infinite funds like the empire has so they needed to focus more on protecting their investments. The book says that unlike the empire they don't view their pilots as expendable, so the new TIEs have built in shields. The book makes mention that they have far fewer resources than the empire. Because they can't build so many star destroyers they made sure to fix the flaw from ended, so now there is an emergency bridge inside the ship in case the top one is blow up.

Now the resistance is explained as well. Leia knows the first order is run by Snoke, the republic doesn't believe a Sith Lord is running this new group, in fact the republic doesn't know of any of the illegal operations the first order is running. So Leia gets support from all her close friends in the republic to form the resistance. They use whatever ships they can salvage, the transport she arrives in is a modified b-wing for instance. She has no capital ships, it's just a small group of... Rebels basically.

There is a bunch of cool stuff about the Falcon and the freighter Han owns. The falcon has a special room as a wedding gift for Leia. On the freighter There is a mysterious cargo container that has always been locked and Han doesn't know the code so it just sits there unopened. It talks about the falcon ownership line and a few thinks Han and Chewie were doing as smugglers.

I wish they found a way to fit this info into the movie. It helps give context as to why the Death Star III is a thing aside from harking back to the OT. It's also a nice twist on the normal rebel/empire dynamics we've seen before that I like.

 

[Brakke]

I would assume that it is compressed before being fired.

guys the sun is 330,000 times the mass of the earth

let's *at least* assume that Starkiller Base is hollowed out.

 

[lastplayed]

Luke uses the force to blow up the Death Star while piloting a fighter he never used before that day.

Yeah, one minute he's whining about not being able to join the academy, next minute he's piloting an X-Wing in one of the Rebels' most important missions ever.

 

[Tom Nook Sawyer]

I can finally enter this thread! just got back from seeing holy fuck, thats the mother of all cliffhangers!

Almost literally

 

[AxelFoley]

Absolutely. We've had a number of films with Mary Sue male characters and while the criticism exists, it isn't to this annoying level.

The fundamental thing about an ACTUAL Mary Sue to me is that it gets on your nerves. They aren't really all that likable because of how perfect they are. Rey is intensely likable, and her abilities are not outside the realm of someone raised to fend for themselves on an unforgiving planet who also has tremendous Force potential.

No, I mean, do you really believe people wouldn't be bitching as much if Finn was doing the same shit Rey was?

 

[LegalEagleMike]

guys the sun is 330,000 times the mass of the earth

let's *at least* assume that Starkiller Base is hollowed out.

lets at least assume that real world science does not apply to Star Wars.

 

[Gleethor]

Though you have to wonder, what's the budget on converting an entire planet into a superweapon

There's canon material stating that they don't have anywhere near the resources that that the Empire had. Not saying that them turning around and making Starkiller Base makes sense, but apparently they aren't rich.

Maybe they could've explained Starkiller as a shuttered/incomplete imperial project revived and finished by The First Order. They didn't really explain much of anything though.

 

[meanspartan]

Luke uses the force to blow up the Death Star while piloting a fighter he never used before that day.

Haha I beat you by seconds.

EXACTLY.

Thank you.

 

[DrForester]

anyone uploaded footage of the ending? (Luke)

So badly wanna see that again.

Also I just got to say, Harrison really killed it in this.

He actually put some effort into this role unlike most of his work in the past decade

Ford seemed like he was having a blast. Unlike Indiana Jones where it didn't feel like he was really into it. It even shows in the pressers he's done. He seems genuinely happy about this project.

 

[NYR]

anyone uploaded footage of the ending? (Luke)

So badly wanna see that again.

No, no one has illegally posted video of a for-profit movie that came out 2 days ago. If only there was a way to satisfy your urge to see it again...Might even be worth some dollars?

 

[More_Badass]

You know, I just realized I never saw Hamill act in anything other than Star Wars and his short role in Kingsman

 

[RowdyReverb]

Only because Lucas hadn't thought up that power when he wrote ANH. Otherwise you can damn well guess that the Rebel base is on Leia's mind when someone asks her "Tell us the location of the Rebel Base!"

The movies have a long history of "adding powers" as they go. Force jump appears in Empire as does bolt deflecting. Then Force Lightning and mind reading in RotJ.

I think it's cool to keep the abilities granted by the Force mysterious like that. It makes it feel more like some strange magic and less like an RPG skill tree.

 

[meanspartan]

No, I mean, do you really believe people wouldn't be bitching as much if Finn was doing the same shit Rey was?

I'll admit I can't be sure of that given the dedication of Star Wars fans.

But, we have had a lot more films with male Mary Sues in which that criticism is more of a whimper. Whereas I'm hearing this shit about Rey a ton already.

 

[AxelFoley]

Do you guys think Mark Hamill can play Luke Skywalker as well as he needs to play him in the next films?

I mean, he's not a good actor.

Wut?

 

[jackdoe]

You know, I just realized I never saw Hamill act in anything other than Star Wars and his short role in Kingsman

Shit, if Mark Hamill can give a convincing performance with a puppet, he can give a convincing performance with anyone.