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[a916]

I didn't address that because there's even LESS point to bringing him in if you proceed from there. The only thing that makes Plagueis even remotely tempting as a name (because he's not even a character) is the tie to Palpatine and his past. Erasing that tie means you might as well come up with a new character. Which they did. And again, Abrams/Kasdan didn't even reference the old EU. They're not looking at it for inspiration at all. Strongly doubt Johnson is, either.

Whether by coincidence or not, there's a lot of things in Force Awakens that show up in the EU. So if by accident, or if they happened to cherry pick ideas they liked, there's definitely EU influence in Episode 7. You can't just stick your head in the sand and pretend Lucasfilm isn't going to cherry pick all these great ideas that work that have already been written.

So what's Kylo Ren, then?

Kylo just murdered Han Solo. We're supposed to backseat this dude (maybe one of the more interesting portrayals of a bad guy in Star Wars, period) so we can dive deeper down the dumb Prequel rabbit hole so as to beef up a bad guy for the sake of what - making Palpatine weaker/dumber? Retroactively making the Prequels seem more important?

Again, what would Plagueis actually add to this story (especially the first chapter as we've seen) that would make his resurrection from being mentioned in one Episode III scene so much better than simply developing Snoke as a unique character?

I have no complaints with Snoke being an original character, but the implication of him being Plageus, and if they do borrow from the EU, means a return for the Sith and abolishing the rule of 2. I hate the idea of there being just two Sith and up until the prequels, a legion of Jedi. I want the story group to explore the idea of a team of Sith vs a team of Jedi.

Just like you say "why would they do it to boost the prequels, new trilogy doesn't need it"... it doesn't need it. But no one outside of Lucasfilms and Kathleen Kennedy, those in the know, know how well Snoke/Plagues fit in this new trilogy. At the VERY least, we have no idea how well he'd work because we have no idea how this ends. So you can't say it's a terrible idea because of your aversion to the prequels. Only a Sith deals in absolutes, let's keep an open mind here.

I don't get this particular argument... Plagueis was the Emperor's former master. That all the audience needs to know and that's all there IS to know. This would be stated in literally one line and it would be enough.

They literally don't even have to lol... they could just be like "I'm an ancient Sith, better known as Plageus the Wise" Done. Anyone who wants to remember the prequels, can do it. Everyone that wants to ignore them, can continue doing so.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

A good article on Kylo vs Anakin:

io9: Kylo Ren Is Everything That Anakin Skywalker Should Have Been

 

[Aselith]

Why are the Sith considered "evil"?

Are we supposed to just assume that? Yes they do asshole things but in terms of assholeness it's pretty tame compared to shit done in the real world that people justify.

Because they blow up planets and murder people for disappointing them?

 

[Ishida]

I totally didn't know that Lucas actually went and messed around with the prequels as well. Frank Oz's puppet Yoda was replaced by CGI in the Blu-Ray release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxaZxpNTm8A

Because the puppet was so fucking hideous that even prequel haters were glad they replaced it with a model that actually looks like Yoda.

 

[Squire]

Okay, so I'm getting the impression people want because "UNLIMITED POWAAAAAAAH" to which I say this:

Luke Skywalker is the current greatest hero the galaxy has known. It stands to reason his nephew, fallen to the dark side, has the potential to be the greatest villain the galaxy has known.

That seems to be the basic trajectory Kylo Ren has been placed on in TFA. You're going to get what you want, but it's going to be an actual arc. Ren is going to be a full-course meal. Plagueis would be a run through a McDonald's drive-through.

 

[Dead]

Whether by coincidence or not, there's a lot of things in Force Awakens that show up in the EU. So if by accident, or if they happened to cherry pick ideas they liked, there's definitely EU influence in Episode 7.
.

Yeah, whether intentional or not, EU callbacks are inevitable.

Luke wanting to restart the Jedi order...was done in EU
Han Solo's kid being force sensitive and going dark side...this was done in the EU
A Skywalker descendant named Ben...done in the EU

Abrams and Kasdan never even had to have read the EU, these concepts are just what would naturally come to mind for anyone making a follow up to the OT

 

[TheDinoman]

Yeah, that Yoda puppet was pretty shit looking. Not that the CGI Yoda is that much better, but I guess, at the very least, it makes it consistent with the rest of the prequels, and makes it more distinguishable from the OT. The original movies are the films with the real puppet Yoda, and the prequels are the films with the fake CGI one.

EDIT: And I guess the sequel trilogy will be the films with no Yoda at all lol.

 

[Azerare]

Okay, so I'm getting the impression people want because "UNLIMITED POWAAAAAAAH" to which I say this:

Luke Skywalker is the current greatest hero the galaxy has known. It stands to reason his nephew, fallen to the dark side, has the potential to be the greatest villain the galaxy has known.

That seems to be the basic trajectory Kylo Ren has been placed on in TFA. You're going to get what you want, but it's going to be an actual arc. Ren is going to be a full-course meal. Plagueis would be a run through a McDonald's drive-through.

Like McDonalds, people enjoy it for the first 5 minutes, but regret it for the following 24 hours.

 

[Joeytj]

If Plagueis is back then that means he conquered death. Something even the Emperor didn't know how to do.

No, he's dead.

 

[Scrooged]

Besides which, Snoke isn't even a Sith. The sith are dead. The whole M.O. of the First Order is that the Empire & the Sith didn't do it right, so they need to do it bigger and better. So why would Snoke be a secret Sith? The heart of your theory depends on the character you want to be in the movie "disrespecting the quote always two there are."

Well, that M.O. wasn't really implied in the movie unless I missed something. For all you know Snoke is an old Sith that's been reborn and he's bringing back the original Sith order, hence the 'First' Order.

 

[Azerare]

No, he's dead.

Unless he's like Shmi Skywalker and able to time travel too.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Whether by coincidence or not,

It's coincidence.

So you can't say it's a terrible idea because of your aversion to the prequels.

No, I think it's a terrible idea because his utility as a character would only really serve the Prequels, and not the trilogy of movies he's actually in. It's a terrible idea because it's an unnecessary, limiting tie that mandates a certain kind of story path.

The Opera Scene in Sith is one of the best scenes in the only Prequel I actually like. It's not an aversion to Revenge of the Sith that has me against this idea. It's that it's a bad idea. It's continuity porn first and foremost, the kind that chokes out superhero comics on a monthly basis, applied to Star Wars, for no real storytelling reason other than it scratches that continuity itch.

Well, that M.O. wasn't really implied in the movie unless I missed something. For all you know Snoke is an old Sith that's been reborn and he's bringing back the original Sith order, hence the 'First' Order.

Abrams expounded on that particular aspect in a couple interviews. The film hints at it in a couple ways, the most prominent of which being they took the idea of a Death Star, and made it a hyperspace jumping planet that literally eats suns and spits them back out at other solar systems.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Why are the Sith considered "evil"?

Are we supposed to just assume that? Yes they do asshole things but in terms of assholeness it's pretty tame compared to shit done in the real world that people justify.

The Sith are considered evil cause most of them seem to be psychotic power-hungry monsters.

It's talked about a bit in the above io9 article I posted, but here's an excerpt that I found interesting:

But that’s what the dark side is meant to be, right? Anger. Hate. Suffering—and above all those, passion. That’s not passion in terms of romance (although it can be), but the strength, the amplification, of your emotions. In George Lucas’ original conception, the Jedi were meant to be the warrior monks, skilled and precise and in control of their feelings. They harness power from that control. The Sith are the ones who give into their passion and seek power from jumping into that swirling sea of emotion. They’re angry and sullen and screaming at the world, at the legacies handed to them, because that’s what empowers them.

I'd like to see more of people tapping into the "Dark Side" without going Sith. Like, why can't a Jedi use his emotions for good?

 

[Joeytj]

Unless he's like Shmi Skywalker and able to time travel too.

Now THAT's plausible.

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

A good article on Kylo vs Anakin:

io9: Kylo Ren Is Everything That Anakin Skywalker Should Have Been

The progression was definitely miles better. I think we're going to see a very different Ren. They showed him as the raw guy, prone to angry outbursts, conflicted with some childish emotions but now he's offed Han Solo (and hopefully removed that light side temptation), lost and been scarred in a fight and has to go and complete his training, we could see a more colder/calmer Ren as he fully embraces the dark side.

 

[Yoshichan]

I've spent way too much money on Kylo for him to disappoint now.

Please be amazing.

 

[Biggest-Geek-Ever]

Unless he's like Shmi Skywalker and able to time travel too.

The Kingdom Hearts/Star Wars singularity is happening, both on film and on consoles. :O

 

[a916]

It's coincidence.



No, I think it's a terrible idea because his utility as a character would only really serve the Prequels, and not the trilogy of movies he's actually in. It's a terrible idea because it's an unnecessary, limiting tie that mandates a certain kind of story path.

The Opera Scene in Sith is one of the best scenes in the only Prequel I actually like. It's not an aversion to Revenge of the Sith that has me against this idea. It's that it's a bad idea. It's continuity porn, the kind that chokes out superhero comics on a monthly basis, applied to Star Wars, for no real storytelling reason other than it scratches that continuity itch.

Highly debatable. Don't act like this is a sure thing.

I've spent way too much money on Kylo for him to disappoint now.

Please be amazing.

He need's to turn to the good side... otherwise he's dying. This is Star Wars afterall.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

The progression was definitely miles better. I think we're going to see a very different Ren. They showed him as the raw guy, prone to angry outbursts, conflicted with some childish emotions but now he's offed Han Solo (and hopefully removed that light side temptation), lost and been scarred in a fight and has to go and complete his training, we could see a more colder/calmer Ren as he fully embraces the dark side.

I think he'll becalm calmer on the surface, but he's going to utterly lose his shit in IX. Especially if Ghost Han is haunting him.

 

[Azerare]

The Kingdom Hearts/Star Wars singularity is happening, both on film and on consoles. :O

To be fair, we should've seen this coming from a mile away.

 

[a916]

The progression was definitely miles better. I think we're going to see a very different Ren. They showed him as the raw guy, prone to angry outbursts, conflicted with some childish emotions but now he's offed Han Solo (and hopefully removed that light side temptation), lost and been scarred in a fight and has to go and complete his training, we could see a more colder/calmer Ren as he fully embraces the dark side.

Spoilers from the novelization:

Spoiler

After kiling him, he thought he would eliminate the light in him and feel stronger... he actually felt weaker.

 

[Skateboard P]

I'm rewatching the original trilogy to see all the call backs to epi 7.

Chewie chokes Lando in ESB, much like how he chokes Finn in TFA. Both were trying to help him.

#FinnCalrissian

#Believe

 

[Yoshichan]

Highly debatable. Don't act like this is a sure thing.



He need's to turn to the good side... otherwise he's dying. This is Star Wars afterall.

Dying is fine, as long as it happens in a good, cool fucking way and not Darth Maul shit.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Highly debatable. Don't act like this is a sure thing.

It's a sure thing. Abrams and Kasdan have both said they didn't look at any of it. Kasdan's never looked at any of it. One of the best quotes from the press tour came from him, and it essentially said "I've written four of these things and I don't even know what a canon IS."

If there are similarities, it's because 30 years of merchandising/publishing means the sheer breath of potential storylines concerning Skywalker kids/grandkids makes it hard NOT to have a similar plot point crop up along the way.

Similarity isn't a sign of inspiration at all.

He need's to turn to the good side...

This movie basically took that option off the table entirely. He's going to become a total fucking monster by Episode 9.

 

[soxxx]

Snoke being a Sith or not is not exaclty major imo.

See with the Sith there are always "two", Snoke obviously wanted more than two, so he formed the Knights of ren. So now he has more people under him than just one. Its a different way of doing things.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Man, Adam Driver was so good in this movie. I really did love that moment with Rey when he removed his helmet, and it's just this fucking guy who looks kinda nervous and trying to be tough.

 

[Azerare]

I'm rewatching the original trilogy to see all the call backs to epi 7.

Chewie chokes Lando in ESB, much like how he chokes Finn in TFA. Both were trying to help him.

#FinnCalrissian

#Believe

I like the time travel/reincarnation theory circling around.

I'll just stick with Finn being Mace Windu being reincarnate.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

No, he's dead.

Nice circular argument.

When did the idea of Darth Plagueis was born anyway? Was it during the OT? Did GL share the idea with Kasdan at the time?

Dunno but I've read that the earliest name for the Emperor in the first Star Wars drafts is "Emperor Ford Xerxes XII", apparently a name inspired by "Emperor Shaddam IV Corrino" from the Dune novels. Apparently Shaddam had his own father assassinated in order to succeed the throne.

 

[Ape Gone Insane]

Spoilers from the novelization:

Spoiler

After kiling him, he thought he would eliminate the light in him and feel stronger... he actually felt weaker.

I really hope he stays bad and it doesn't lead to some redemption arc.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

I bet he doesnt take his helmet off much in the next movie after that booboo that Rey gave him on his face.

 

[DMczaf]

The moment that still sticks out to me is Kylo beating his wound in the middle of the fight. Really good moment, and didn't rely on "remember this from the original trilogy????" nostalgia.

Want more of that kind of stuff in Ep 8 and 9.

 

[Joeytj]

Nice circular argument.
.

Thank you.

 

[a916]

It's a sure thing. Abrams and Kasdan have both said they didn't look at any of it. Kasdan's never looked at any of it. One of the best quotes from the press tour came from him, and it essentially said "I've written four of these things and I don't even know what a canon IS."

If there are similarities, it's because 30 years of merchandising/publishing means the sheer breath of potential storylines concerning Skywalker kids/grandkids makes it hard NOT to have a similar plot point crop up along the way.

Similarity isn't a sign of inspiration at all.



This movie basically took that option off the table entirely. He's going to become a total fucking monster by Episode 9.

Good point, didn't think of it that way.

Dying is fine, as long as it happens in a good, cool fucking way and not Darth Maul shit.

Legit the first thing I thought about after I hit send... I was like, wait, they could still kill him off, as long as his story and character is really well told.

 

[Megasoum]

I wish there was a tour with John Williams and a symphonic orchestra playing his different soundtracks. So many incredible pieces over the years, it must be fucking incredible to hear those live with a real orchestra.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I really hope he stays bad and it doesn't lead to some redemption arc.

I hope it goes the Will/Hannibal vs Red Dragon route. Rey and Kylo tied together, but coming together to defeat a common enemy. They can only really understand one another, and to everyone else, a mystery.

 

[Fj0823]

"For hundreds of years I've been an agent of the darkside, I've been called many names, Snoke, Insanius, Plagueis, none of which bear any importance for me"

Done in a simple efective way.

But yeah, I'm against it.

 

[Azerare]

I hope it goes the Will/Hannibal vs Red Dragon route. Rey and Kylo tied together, but coming together to defeat a common enemy. They can only really understand one another, and to everyone else, a mystery.

I would love to see a old Luke acting like Yoda saying "MINE!" while rummaging through Rey's things.

 

[a916]

I hope it goes the Will/Hannibal vs Red Dragon route. Rey and Kylo tied together, but coming together to defeat a common enemy. They can only really understand one another, and to everyone else, a mystery.

Haha, he should actually be like Yoda. Talking non-sensical and what not because it's a little known side effect of the light side and of supressing your emotions for 900 years.

I would love to see a old Luke acting like Yoda saying "MINE!" while rummaging through Rey's things.

I was kidding... stoic Yoda for the win.

 

[AtomnayaKlubnika]

Darth Plagueis is mentioned in a single conversation, we know: he was Palpatine master and he could bring life with the force, that's all. From there you could develop a very good character and deliver a excellent story arc which would be as good as any. I don't understand people equating Darth Plagueis to a McDonald's meal, srsly.
And I think Rian is much more likely to be versed with some EU stuff than Kasdan (not saying he is a fan or has read everything about it). But remember, Plagueis is NOT EU.
Once, again, I'll sound very redundant but: when was the concept of this character first established by GL?

Dunno but I've read that the earliest name for the Emperor in the first Star Wars drafts is "Emperor Ford Xerxes XII", apparently a name inspired by "Emperor Shaddam IV Corrino" from the Dune novels. Apparently Shaddam had his own father assassinated in order to succeed the throne.

Thank you!
So there are good chances Kasdan has explored the concept of this character. Darth Plagueis is not just a simple meaningless prequel character.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I'm having a tough time finding Vader's Black Series saber, guys.

Goddammit.

 

[Dead]

Similarities between Ep 7 and the old EU:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/what-the-force-awakens-borrowed-from-the-old-star-wars-1749328107

 

[a916]

Darth Plagueis is mentioned in a single conversation, we know: he was Palpatine master and he could bring life with the force, that's all. From there you could develop a very good character and deliver a excellent story arc which would be as good as any. I don't understand people equating Darth Plagueis to a McDonald's meal, srsly.
And I think Rian is much more likely to be versed with some EU stuff than Kasdan (not saying he is a fan or has read everything about it). But remember, Plagueis is NOT EU.
Once, again, I'll sound very redundant but: when was the concept of this character first established by GL?

Plageus is as good and has as much depth as the storyteller wants to be. To act like it's a terrible idea out of the gate... well...

...if you don't trust the new story group to make a good Plageus, then why trust them to do anything right?

 

[Astral Dog]

And in terms of power, IMO

Plagueis > Palpatine

Palpatine even states Plagueis had so much knowledge of the force, thats why Palpatine could only "kill" him while he was asleep. If Plagueis is the main enemy, it would be pretty epic because in terms of power, he is the ultimate Sith Lord .

A good article on Kylo vs Anakin:

io9: Kylo Ren Is Everything That Anakin Skywalker Should Have Been

Now Kylo Ren > Vader posts.

The guy is going to win where his granddady failed.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Once, again, I'll sound very redundant but: when was the concept of this character first established by GL?

Right around 2001.

Similarities between Ep 7 and the old EU:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/what-the-force-awakens-borrowed-from-the-old-star-wars-1749328107

See, that's annoying as shit: io9 titles the thing "What the Force Awakens Borrowed" and the very first sentence is them admitting they don't know if it borrowed anything at all, and that it could be coincidence. Which it is.

Hollywood Reporter pulled the exact same shit yesterday.

This is why people think Abrams/Kasdan actually paid attention to the novels even though they both explicitly said they never considered them.

...if you don't trust the new story group to make a good Plageus, then why trust them to do anything right?

I trust them to not need his ass at all. That's not lack of faith, that's evidence of it.

 

[Icyflamez96]

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

I'm still bummed that Snoke is CGI.

 

[Squire]

It came up in the Mary Sue thread for Rey, but it seems like the arcs they've set up for Rey and Kylo are about how they both choose to embrace the force.

That's interesting because regardless of who has or hasn't already had some degree of training from someone, it's clear they really are both learning.

In the OT look had to learn. Vader turned at the very end.

In the PT Anakin had to learn. Obi-Wan did a lot of learning too, but it really wasn't the focus at all.

TFA is about the future. What does it mean to be "one with the force"? What happens when that statement is read and acted upon differently?

 

[Icyflamez96]

"For hundreds of years I've been an agent of the darkside, I've been called many names, Snoke, Insanius, Plagueis, none of which bear any importance for me"

"the only name I have that means anything to me is Jar Jar"

 

[AtomnayaKlubnika]

Right around 2001.

Dunno but I've read that the earliest name for the Emperor in the first Star Wars drafts is "Emperor Ford Xerxes XII", apparently a name inspired by "Emperor Shaddam IV Corrino" from the Dune novels. Apparently Shaddam had his own father assassinated in order to succeed the throne.

Are we talking about Star Wars episode I or Star Wars?

 

[excelsiorlef]

A good article on Kylo vs Anakin:

io9: Kylo Ren Is Everything That Anakin Skywalker Should Have Been

I was thinking about this today. If that was the Anakin we got the PT would have been hella better