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[harSon]

I wish I could be in the position not to worry about the gender of protagonists (((

To be fair, it's not like there's a laundry list of female Darth/Sith like characters in cinema. She'd be breaking ground regardless of which direction she moves in. I'm obviously viewing this from the sidelines as a male, but I'd rather the character be deep, complex and well written - as opposed to a culmination of checked boxes for female character deficiencies within cinema/television. I know where you're coming from though, as a minority myself. I suppose I'm different than most as I always had a fascination with villains and anti-heroes growing up. For example, Azula was easily my favorite character in Avatar.

 

[Sn4ke_911]

She's hilarious lol

Daisy's face is priceless lol.

 

[Tcab96]

I'm sorry but your heart is going be broken. I wanted a strong black core character after Lando and (cinematic) Mace Windu failed to fit the bill, and all I got was a treacherous sanitation worker who got bodied by lowly storm trooper.

I feel your pain. We got all these images of Finn with the lightsaber all cool like and it didn't really follow through.

On the bright side though, we got a character who has an incredible heart and personality. Probably my favorite.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I take your point and I apologize. I didn't mean to come off as it seems I did. The "gender never been entered my thinking" quote was a big error on my part. Again, my bad.

Thank you. Honestly if Star Wars was full of female Finns, Poes, Lukes, Solos hell even Rens I'd be less protective but honestly Rey is so important beyond just the narrative. It's literally her and Leia and arguably it's only really her.

For example there was exactly one X-Wing pilot who was female as far as I could tell.

 

[Squire]

You watch Creed?

I did! Creed is fantastic, but it's also not totally atypical?

I think the best way to put it is this: Finn would normally be played by a white guy and it's remarkable that he's not.

 

[The Librarian]

Thank you. Honestly if Star Wars was full of female Finns, Poes, Lukes, Solos hell even Rens I'd be less protective but honestly Rey is so important beyond just the narrative. It's literally her and Leia and arguably it's only really her.

For example there was exactly one X-Wing pilot who was female as far as I could tell.

Basically.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

it absolutely should!

It's fine to play up demos when you cast the movie and promote the movie.

But a story has to be true to itself, or you'd just have another "younglings" debacle.

 

[excelsiorlef]

To be fair, it's not like there's a laundry list of female Darth/Sith like characters in cinema. She'd be breaking ground regardless of which direction she moves in. I'm obviously viewing this from the sidelines as a male, but I'd rather the character be deep, complex and well written - as opposed to a culmination of checked boxes for female character deficiencies within cinema/television. I know where you're coming from though, as a minority myself. I suppose I'm different than most as I always had a fascination with villains and anti-heroes growing up.

But how is she goes dark and saved or killed by men deep and complex? She doesn't need to become a villain to have a deep story.

The opposite of deep and complex isn't Rey doesn't become Darth Vader

 

[The Librarian]

Or the writers can do what they feel is best instead of trying to adhere to a certain demo. Again they had no issues doing a bait and switch with Finn which is disgusting for a whole host of reasons.

God, I wish I was a man in that I didn't have to worry about stuff like this.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm hoping it's more than just "soldier dude".



The lure to the darkside (And now with Kylo, the lure to the light) is a major aspect of 5 out of 7 SW movies. (Only ANH and TPM don't deal with this).

I doubt that Rey would end this trilogy as some sort of evil figure...but it seems pretty obvious that she will in fact flirt with those temptations.

I think that they will obviously do it in a respectable manner, just as they did with Luke.

Apparently, the novel already has her thinking "Kill him. Quicker. Easier" during her confrontation with Kylo.

I was replying to people who want her to go full Vader or switch roles with Ren and be the reason he's redeemed or have her go full dark but get saved by Finn or Ren.

None of that precludes being tempted. Luke was tempted he resisted in his own, he didn't need Leia or Han to save him.

 

[harSon]

But how is she goes dark and saved or killed by men deep and complex? She doesn't need to become a villain to have a deep story.

The opposite of deep and complex isn't Rey doesn't become Darth Vader

I didn't say she had to become Darth Vader to be deep and complex. I'm saying that her character's importance to breaking gender barriers doesn't live and die by her being a cookie cutter protagonist/savior, and the character being deep, complex and well written is ultimately more important to that cause than anything else.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Or the writers can do what they feel is best instead of trying to adhere to a certain demo. Again they had no issues doing a bait and switch with Finn which is disgusting for a whole host of reasons.

The writers did not do a bait and switch; the marketing did. The film does not lure us into thinking Finn is the lead, or into thinking he's he budding jedi.

Marketing had a tightrope to walk: lightsabers and lightsaber fights are a big part of the Star Wars films. But they also wanted to keep Rey's arc under wraps. The compromise was to show Finn with the saber. I don't think it's disgusting to go that route for those reasons. He was a great character regardless.

 

[The Librarian]

I didn't say she had to become Darth Vader to be deep and complex. I'm saying that her character's importance to breaking gender barriers doesn't live and die by her being a cookie cutter protagonist/savior, and the character being deep, complex and well written is ultimately more important to that cause than anything else.

Given the number of male characters in the series and those that have been newly introduced...it kinda does.

But luckily, as you said, we can have a deep story otherwise. So there's no problem!

 

[matrix-cat]

http://i.4cdn.org/tv/1450799038678.webm

Well Kylo Ren is really scary when Finn take Anakin's lightsaber

That Holly Holm dodge in the middle

 

[sphagnum]

The thing with Finn was that he was envisioned as a white character during writing and Boyega won the casting because he was just that good. Considering how rushed everything was, with them having to throw out Arndt's draft and come up with stuff on the fly, JJ probably just didn't want to rewrite everything to accommodate it.

Which sucks. But it obviously wasn't intentional. There was definitely a big blindspot in the marketing department, which in and of itself is a problem.

 

[16BitNova]

I'm sorry but your heart is going be broken. I wanted a strong black core character after Lando and (cinematic) Mace Windu failed to fit the bill, and all I got was a treacherous sanitation worker who got bodied by lowly storm trooper.

Finn isn't strong? Lol what? Dude put up a great fight against a dark side force user. And is quite good with a blaster. Damn, good actually. And also, damn good on a ship turret.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

I didn't say she had to become Darth Vader to be deep and complex. I'm saying that her character's importance to breaking gender barriers doesn't live and die by her being a cookie cutter protagonist/savior, and the character being deep, complex and well written is ultimately more important to that cause than anything else.

Which is fine given the context, but my contention is that the possibility of her being actually complex and well-written lowers dramatically if we were to give her the full heel turn. She'd just be another clown in a car full of them.

 

[Boke1879]

God, I wish I was a man in that I didn't have to worry about stuff like this.

Ok? Again I was offended by Finn being used as a bait and switch for Rey. The white female lead. But I feel Finn is a better character for it. His character can do anywhere now.

Personally I don't want Rey to be some untouchable superhero that can't fall to the darkside simply because she's a women that has to inspire a whole generation. She can do all that while still dealing with tough hardships in movies. Even if that means falling to the darkside.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I didn't say she had to become Darth Vader to be deep and complex. I'm saying that her character's importance to breaking gender barriers doesn't live and die by her being a cookie cutter protagonist/savior, and the character being deep, complex and well written is ultimately more important to that cause than anything else.

Here's the irony by being even bring just a Luke hero's journey character she's innovative and brwaking ground because women don't get to be even that like ever.

 

[MattyG]

Just did a quick skim of The Art of The Force Awakens, I'm a little disappointed that some of the crazier ship/planet designs didn't get used. Lots of really cool stuff in the pre-production section of that book.

 

[DrForester]

Or the writers can do what they feel is best instead of trying to adhere to a certain demo. Again they had no issues doing a bait and switch with Finn which is disgusting for a whole host of reasons.

How is it disgusting? So Finn (probably) isn't a Force User. It's misdirection, yes, but I fail to see how it would be offensive.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Bait and switch with Finn? Wot?

Or the writers can do what they feel is best instead of trying to adhere to a certain demo.

lol

We're talking about Star Wars, where they probably make sure a character wears as many different outfits or haircuts as possible (without diluting too much so that each is iconic and memorable) in order to sell more versions of the same toys.

Give me a break with the artistic integrity BS. Star Wars is a fun story, but it's first and foremost a product.

Here's the irony by being even bring just a Luke hero's journey character she's innovative and brwaking ground because women don't get to be even that like ever.

This is true.

I wonder though. What if she were to turn to the Dark Side, but is brought back by... Leia, somehow? No male rescue. I think I'd be OK with that...

 

[Big One]

I'm sorry but your heart is going be broken. I wanted a strong black core character after Lando and (cinematic) Mace Windu failed to fit the bill, and all I got was a treacherous sanitation worker who got bodied by lowly storm trooper.

I think the fact that Finn is shit-tier at what he does but still overcomes it to help his friends Rey and Poe is much more endearing and likable if he was this badass just like Rey was. To me Finn was the real Luke of this movie, in which everything around him is much bigger than he is, but he still tries to pitch in and help. While Rey was the Luke analog, Finn was more of the "breaking out of the mold" type character to me, since it's obvious Rey has previous Jedi training she has suppressed somehow.

Finn comes from nothing, similar to Luke, while Rey comes from SOMETHING that we don't quite know yet. Rey is actually quite different from Anakin and Luke in this regard, where her backstory or origin isn't explicitly explained in the first movie.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Finn grew as a character as much as, or perhaps more than, anyone else in the movie.

Just because he didn't become a jedi doesn't take away from that. If anything, the fact that he showed significant growth in a way that wasn't just his power level going over 9000 is pretty damn important.

 

[Boke1879]

The writers did not do a bait and switch; the marketing did. The film does not lure us into thinking Finn is the lead, or into thinking he's he budding jedi.

Marketing had a tightrope to walk: lightsabers and lightsaber fights are a big part of the Star Wars films. But they also wanted to keep Rey's arc under wraps. The compromise was to show Finn with the saber. I don't think it's disgusting to go that route for those reasons. He was a great character regardless.

He was, but it makes people believe he's the Jedi and you could deduce many in the black community saw the movie for that arc to play out. Upon seeing the movie Finn is the most interesting character imo by far outside of Ren. Can't wait to see where they take him.

But to say Rey can't fall to the darkside because she's the only female protagonist is just limiting. If it made sense from a narrative standpoint which is the lens I'm viewing this in. What is the issue? The only issue would be that she isn't the consistently moral character you want her to be.

 

[sphagnum]

Bait and switch with Finn? Wot?

So much marketing focused on Finn with the lightsaber that it gave the impression that he was a Jedi, and it was a letdown for a lot of black viewers when he wasn't since there's a certain prestige with that.

 

[Aselith]

Bait and switch with Finn? Wot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sGbxmsDFVnE#t=117

I think it was more prompted by them having the mandate to not show Rey as a Jedi though and wanting to have lightsabers in the trailer

 

[EdReedFan20]

Interesting theory: http://hellogiggles.com/theory-reys-parents-star-wars/

They believe that

Spoiler

Rey is the child of Luke and the secret daughter of Obi-Wan, making Rey both a Skywalker AND a Kenobi!

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Love Finn. His arc is probably the most satisfying.

But then Rey called him "friend" and broke all our hearts.

 

[Squire]

Ok? Again I was offended by Finn being used as a bait and switch for Rey. The white female lead. But I feel Finn is a better character for it. His character can do anywhere now.

Personally I don't want Rey to be some untouchable superhero that can't fall to the darkside simply because she's a women that has to inspire a whole generation. She can do all that while still dealing with tough hardships in movies. Even if that means falling to the darkside.

Facing hardship and falling to the dark side aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

So much marketing focused on Finn with the lightsaber that it gave the impression that he was a Jedi, and it was a letdown for a lot of black viewers when he wasn't since there's a certain prestige with that.

I see. Well he's still the co-protagonist really. Han Solo isn't a Jedi but he's arguably even more popular than Luke, so I don't really see the problem with Finn not being a Jedi.

 

[SenorPopOff]

God, I wish I was a white man in that I didn't have to worry about stuff like this.

Fixed, because black, Latino, Asian, etc... men have the exact same issue with Hollywood. So while you see Rey getting saved by Finn as a sign of weakness for the character you associate most with, someone like me would see it as a sign of greatness for our character.

So let's just hope for a great story. Rey doesn't have to be the one character who stands as the moral fiber of the entire series 100% of the time and the unquestioned hero beyond outside help for her to be a character worth remembering.

 

[The Librarian]

Ok? Again I was offended by Finn being used as a bait and switch for Rey. The white female lead. But I feel Finn is a better character for it. His character can do anywhere now.

Personally I don't want Rey to be some untouchable superhero that can't fall to the darkside simply because she's a women that has to inspire a whole generation. She can do all that while still dealing with tough hardships in movies. Even if that means falling to the darkside.

This isn't about what you want. This is about female representation in our culture and, by extension, Star Wars' own, terrible history with its female characters. This is about what's right. Women are entitled to female characters that we can look up to and be excited to watch doing extraordinary things.

Based on those factors, Rey will not turn to, or be seduced by, the dark side.

 

[Boke1879]

Bait and switch with Finn? Wot?


lol

We're talking about Star Wars, where they probably make sure a character wears as many different outfits or haircuts as possible (without diluting too much so that each is iconic and memorable) in order to sell more versions of the same toys.

Give me a break with the artistic integrity BS. Star Wars is a fun story, but it's first and foremost a product.


This is true.

I wonder though. What if she were to turn to the Dark Side, but is brought back by... Leia, somehow? No male rescue. I think I'd be OK with that...

So the marketing didn't show Finn wielding the saber and being the force sensitive character?

 

[excelsiorlef]

He was, but it makes people believe he's the Jedi and you could deduce many in the black community saw the movie for that arc to play out. Upon seeing the movie Finn is the most interesting character imo by far outside of Ren. Can't wait to see where they take him.

But to say Rey can't fall to the darkside because she's the only female protagonist is just limiting. If it made sense from a narrative standpoint which is the lens I'm viewing this in. What is the issue? The only issue would be that she isn't the consistently moral character you want her to be.

I mean you're frankly saying it doesn't really matter that there'd be no women Jedi or protagonists.

 

[Silphonica]

I'm pretty sure Luke will go to the dark side and Kylo Ren will come back to the lightside.

Rey and Ren vs luke ep IX final fight.

 

[clearacell]

Interesting theory: http://hellogiggles.com/theory-reys-parents-star-wars/

They believe that

Spoiler

Rey is the child of Luke and the secret daughter of Obi-Wan, making Rey both a Skywalker AND a Kenobi!

Why are you spoiling this, I thought this is spoiler discussion -_-

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

As an Asian man, I really wish we had more than just Miles from Lost and "There's Too Many of Them" guy from RotJ.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm sorry but your heart is going be broken. I wanted a strong black core character after Lando and (cinematic) Mace Windu failed to fit the bill, and all I got was a treacherous sanitation worker who got bodied by lowly storm trooper.

Regard less of being a sanitation worker Finn is pretty awesome. And hilarious. He's a great character so far.

 

[Squire]

Interesting theory: http://hellogiggles.com/theory-reys-parents-star-wars/

They believe that

Spoiler

Rey is the child of Luke and the secret daughter of Obi-Wan, making Rey both a Skywalker AND a Kenobi!

It's a pretty popular take and my personal favorite.

 

[Aselith]

Love Finn. His arc is probably the most satisfying.

But then Rey called him "friend" and broke all our hearts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aofoBrFNdg

 

[Big One]

Interesting theory: http://hellogiggles.com/theory-reys-parents-star-wars/

They believe that

Spoiler

Rey is the child of Luke and the secret daughter of Obi-Wan, making Rey both a Skywalker AND a Kenobi!

I'm already expecting this. She kind of has elements of both in the movie, so it makes sense if she's some type of super Jedi child or something.

 

[16BitNova]

I think the fact that Finn is shit-tier at what he does but still overcomes it to help his friends Rey and Poe is much more endearing and likable if he was this badass just like Rey was. To me Finn was the real Luke of this movie, in which everything around him is much bigger than he is, but he still tries to pitch in and help. While Rey was the Luke analog, Finn was more of the "breaking out of the mold" type character to me, since it's obvious Rey has previous Jedi training she has suppressed somehow.

Finn comes from nothing, similar to Luke, while Rey comes from SOMETHING that we don't quite know yet.

This is why I love Finn. He is just like one of us (At least in the story so far). Not a force user or anything. Just a regular human. And still he puts on a hell of fight against storm troopers. And utilized the lightsaber like a bad ass. He's the most relatable.

 

[Tcab96]

Love Finn. His arc is probably the most satisfying.

But then Rey called him "friend" and broke all our hearts.

I honestly think something can still happen there.

Then again, I'm bad with people and could be full of shit.

 

[DrForester]

I'm sorry but your heart is going be broken. I wanted a strong black core character after Lando and (cinematic) Mace Windu failed to fit the bill, and all I got was a treacherous sanitation worker who got bodied by lowly storm trooper.

I think Finn is a lot more than a sanitation worker. I assume that was one of his early jobs when he was training and was stationed on the Starkiller Base. He's now stationed aboard a Star Destroyer. He's a newly trailed soldier, but he's apparently elite enough to go on a mission to Jakku with only a few dozen troops. Ren knows his designation, so I assume he somehow stood out.

He's a trained, competent solider who was defeated by a Trooper who knew him, so we can assume had the same level of training (and possibly more actual experience). He was also using an unfamiliar weapon.

 

[TAJ]

Speaking of the duel, I don't believe I've seen it mentioned that when Kylo is knocked to the ground it's one of the very few moments of slow motion in Star Wars.

If you count model shoots then there's shitloads of it. Like over a thousand shots easily.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think Finn is a lot more than a sanitation worker. I assume that was one of his early jobs when he was training and was stationed on the Starkiller Base. He's now stationed aboard a Star Destroyer. He's a newly trailed soldier, but he's apparently elite enough to go on a mission to Jakku with only a few dozen troops. Ren knows his designation, so I assume he somehow stood out.

He's a trained, competent solider who was defeated by a Trooper who knew him, so we can assume had the same level of training (and possibly more actual experience). He was also using an unfamiliar weapon.

He's also the first Stormtrooper to be an individual character let alone the first to leave the ranks.

 

[sphagnum]

As an Asian man, I really wish we had more than just Miles from Lost and "There's Too Many of Them" guy from RotJ.

Thankfully they're working on that as well, with two of the main cast in Rogue One being Asian characters and Jun Sato being a fairly high ranking character on Rebels.

Kind of bizarre how few Asians there are in Star Wars in general considering it's roots though.

Wonder when more Indian characters will show up.

 

[Boke1879]

This isn't about what you want. This is about female representation in our culture and, by extension, Star Wars' own, terrible history with its female characters. This is about what's right. Women are entitled to female characters that we can look up to and be excited to watch doing extraordinary things.

Based on those factors, Rey will not turn to, or be seduced by, the dark side.

So it's not about what I want with Finn as a character but what you want? So by the reason Rey can't fall to the darkside? Women totally deserve a strong character to look up to. That means she can't be flawed or show a moment of weakness? Luke was whiny kid in ANH and a terrible student in Empire. Rey has already shown herself to be better and above that.

So if the narrative allowed it you'd still be totally against her falling to the darkside because it would ruin her image as a role model to women?

 

[Metalingus5150]

What the hell is going on in this thread?