Star Wars VII doesn't respect the original trilogy (spoilers)

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So what you're saying is that a more powerful Rey can't beat Ren because Ren beat a less powerful Rey

Like I have no idea what point you're trying to make? lol

No I'm saying people saying he was injured as an excuse is a pretty crappy excuse as he was kicking her ass for the majority of the fight It was only until she communed with the force did she win, something that she had been using for a few hours something he had been training with for years, and yet somehow that of all things allows her to tip the balance. It was pretty blatant asspull, nothing in the fight corresponded to that outcome it happened because the writers wanted it to, ignoring any and all context.
 
1. She is TOO good. What development could possibly be left for her in the forthcoming films? She is already gifted with incredible powers and abilities. That is NOT an interesting protagonist, IMO.

What? While her knowing about the Mind Trick somehow is one thing, but she barely even pulled that off on a grunt stormtrooper. She has force powers... only in the form of a kinda-Force pull and literally nothing else. She is barely competent at fighting with a lightsaber and once she lets the Force take over, she manages to barely overpower a man who was shot with a bowcaster, already had some mental issues, and was literally punching himself in order to not pass the fuck out. And no, Ren being a Knight of Ren doesn't count when Snoke is literally like "... well shit, I guess I probably should have actually completed his training instead of stomping around in a mask dealing with non-force sensitives and mooks."

Rey is definitely competent, but no room to grow? Hell no.
 
I think TFA treatment about of the Force is consistent with the OT and PT (although I wish it wasn't). People inherently have a certain force power level (midichlorians!). It doesn't get larger with more training. The training is more about refinement and in the Jedi's case, making sure you do not get tempted by the darkside.

Rey finally used her Force ability at the end of the fight with Ren, and she overpowered him as he was injured, depleted, and an emotional wreck.

I personally wish a person could get stronger with the force with proper training etc. Then someone who isn't born as 'Force sensitive' could still become a Jedi etc if they wanted it enough.
 
Huh? Isn't the 'Mary Sue' argument based on the fact that Rey almost does nothing wrong the entire movie? Luke does plenty of things wrong in ANH. He almost gets killed by the Sand People, he gets into a bar fight, he almost gets killed by a underwater beast, he almost gets squashed by a trash compactor, he almost gets shot down by Vader. All of those times other characters/events saved him.


Luke at the start of the movie is a farmer , at the end he destroys the most powerful weapon of the empire.

Rey at the start is just a scavenger , at the end she defeats a dark force user. More or less is the same :)
 
Basically Wedge? Did you see Poe's moves on Jakku? He aced in about forty seconds. And then went on to kill a Mega Death Star. That guy is a champ and a half.

Not by skill, but character development. He almost gets none, except being 'the best pilot in the Resistance'. Though I like Wedge a bit more since he is a far more realistic 'good pilot' than Poe, who is basically the best pilot ever why the hell do they even have other pilots if this dude can shoot down 10 TIE Fighters in 10 seconds.
 
I wonder how much the complaints are going to be explicitly addressed in the future movies. Like Batman v Superman with the destruction criticism, I feel like the audience is going to be directing these things over time. You manufacture crowd pleasing movies by pleasing the crowd (already what TFA did). On the other hand, Lucas heard the criticisms of his movies and truly did not care when it came to the other prequels. Haha.

Rian Johnson is like the polar opposite of Abrams, so we'll have to see what he cooks up. Could be super interesting or could be the same old shit again.
 
ya know I just read that today, and it just mirror'd a lot of things I felt

Ya know, I think the movie would have been better if they just...didn't involve any of the OT3 at all. Like the general consensus is the first 30 minutes was the best part, right? Episode 8 will pretty much have to be better than Ep.7, just cuz it doesn't have to be this awkward transition piece that doesn't offend most people's idea of Star Wars.

Also we'll be spared more of Carrie Fisher's performance hopefully

But then you spend most of the movie preoccupied with where's Luke/Han/Leia, what happened to them, what are they doing now, etc. than focusing on the new shit.

I think the dynamic mostly works in VII: Han and Leia supplement the new leads, and Luke's absence helps drive the plot.
 
unfortunately people refuse to critically look at something with "it's a popcorn flick" "its star wars who cares" etc etc.

Why should we? Not everybody needs to sit and pick something apart and prove its flaws. Most people experience something and enjoy it or don't.

They don't say "Well, Disneyland was fun, I guess, but there were a lot of people and the temperature on the water faucets was a little too cold for the weather and the rides are kinda far apart and a lot like Disney World and...", they say "I had a great time at Disneyland".

It's not refusal to look critically at something, it's that having to look critically at everything is pessimism and most people prefer to be optimists. The critical reviews and repeat business and word of mouth show that people are (a) loving Star Wars and (b) they'll be there for the next one. That's all that matters to Disney and to the rest of the world.

That's not to say any criticism is wrong, it's that most of us honestly don't care if there are minor flaws in a great experience.
 
Would I be correct in saying that it's the first Star Wars movie with no dismemberment?

Episode I: Maul gets cut in half
Episode II: Anakin loses forearm
Episode III: Dooku and Anakin loses multiple body parts
Episode IV: Dude at the cantina loses arm
Episode V: Luke loses hand
Episode VI: I guess Vader only loses a robo-hand
 
Luke at the start of the movie is a farmer , at the end he destroys the most powerful weapon of the empire.

Rey at the start is just a scavenger , at the end she defeats a dark force user. More or less is the same :)

No it's not Luke does not defeat Darth Vader in Episode IV, think how crazy that would have been if that happened, do you think Darth Vader would be seen as half the menacing villain as he's seen today. Luke hits a "lucky" shot Rey not only is stronger in the force than Kylo Ren (injured or not), she also best him in a lightsaber duel.
 
1. She is TOO good. What development could possibly be left for her in the forthcoming films? She is already gifted with incredible powers and abilities. That is NOT an interesting protagonist, IMO.

Clearly you are not accustomed to Star Wars lore at all. You are assuming that the abilities she has are incredibly powerful to begin with, and you are wrong.

Rey has not truly been put to the test either. Like Luke, she has yet to confront her own demons and not fall to the darkside. She has much to learn.

Might want to familiarize yourself with some of the lore before trying to argue Rey is a Jedi Master, because that is a pretty absurd claim.
 
Would I be correct in saying that it's the first Star Wars movie with no dismemberment?

Episode I: Maul gets cut in half
Episode II: Anakin loses forearm
Episode III: Dooku and Anakin loses multiple body parts
Episode IV: Dude at the cantina loses arm
Episode V: Luke loses hand
Episode VI: I guess Vader only loses a robo-hand
Why aren't we discussing these things?
 
I don't think I agree on the Han thing, it does at least make some sense given what apparently happened to his character. Although I was definitely upset at how powerful Rey was with zero training, it would be like if in Ep4 Luke had taken on Darth Vader solo and defeated him, just absurd imo.

Also not happy that they apparently re-established the Jedi Order off screen and already killed them off again. There better be a bunch of survivors so we can get Kyle Katarn, mothafucka.

Kylo Ren is not Darth Vader and there was no new Jedi Order, Luke didn't get nearly that far.
 
Not by skill, but character development. He almost gets none, except being 'the best pilot in the Resistance'. Though I like Wedge a bit more since he is a far more realistic 'good pilot' than Poe, who is basically the best pilot ever why the hell do they even have other pilots if this dude can shoot down 10 TIE Fighters in 10 seconds.

Oh I see, word. Definitely agree then. I like him despite that for the same reason I like Hux a lot. Poe is just big-hearted and trusting and super competent. Hux is malevolent and he hates Kylo and he's super competent. It's nice having someone just reveling in being a Cool Space Bro and also someone just reveling in being a Mean Space Nazi. Those guys help anchor their factions. Poe is a weak character but a strong presence.
 
No I'm saying people saying he was injured as an excuse is a pretty crappy excuse as he was kicking her ass for the majority of the fight It was only until she communed with the force did she win, something that she had been using for a few hours something he had been training with for years, and yet somehow that of all things allows her to tip the balance. It was pretty blatant asspull, nothing in the fight corresponded to that outcome it happened because the writers wanted it to, ignoring any and all context.

Kylo Ren:

1. Wounded by a direct shot from a blaster that causes a pretty significant explosion upon impact.

2. Wounded by Finn when he used the lightsaber.

3. Unfocused, angry.

4. His ultimate goal is to capture Rey, not kill her, and as such is less inclined to commit to mortally wound her.

5. Is a Sith Padawan and has not even completed his training yet.

Rey:

1. Is very remarkable with the weapon she wields and, logically, would be able to wield a Lightsaber competently enough.

2. Is fighting for survival, and has no reason to not kill him given the opportunity.

Seriously, the sheer denial makes it seem like an outright desire for her to be a Mary Sue rather than the legitimate belief.
 
Why should we? Not everybody needs to sit and pick something apart and prove its flaws. Most people experience something and enjoy it or don't.

They don't say "Well, Disneyland was fun, I guess, but there were a lot of people and the temperature on the water faucets was a little too cold for the weather and the rides are kinda far apart and a lot like Disney World and...", they say "I had a great time at Disneyland".

It's not refusal to look critically at something, it's that having to look critically at everything is pessimism and most people prefer to be optimists. The critical reviews and repeat business and word of mouth show that people are (a) loving Star Wars and (b) they'll be there for the next one. That's all that matters to Disney and to the rest of the world.

That's not to say any criticism is wrong, it's that most of us honestly don't care if there are minor flaws in a great experience.
The Prequel trilogy was knit-picked to hell and back for good reason.
 
No I'm saying people saying he was injured as an excuse is a pretty crappy excuse as he was kicking her ass for the majority of the fight It was only until she communed with the force did she win, something that she had been using for a few hours something he had been training with for years, and yet somehow that of all things allows her to tip the balance. It was pretty blatant asspull, nothing in the fight corresponded to that outcome it happened because the writers wanted it to, ignoring any and all context.

Did you miss the rest of the movie, where it showed she already knew how to fight with a staff? She was just adapting those fighting skills to use with the lightsaber. It's the same thing Finn did, except he didn't have access to the force.

Also, i'm yet to see a coherent argument that shows how Rey using the force during the lightsaber duel is a bigger asspull than Luke blowing up the Death Star. Nowhere in ANH does Obi-Wan show Luke how to use the force to aim better at shit.

BECAUSE IT'S THE FUCKING FORCE, and the entire point of it is that you tap into it to do shit you normally couldn't do.
 
Clearly you are not accustomed to Star Wars lore at all. You are assuming that the abilities she has are incredibly powerful to begin with, and you are wrong.

Rey has not truly been put to the test either. Like Luke, she has yet to confront her own demons and not fall to the darkside. She has much to learn.

Might want to familiarize yourself with some of the lore before trying to argue Rey is a Jedi Master, because that is a pretty absurd claim.
Uhhhh, I don't think I ever called her a Jedi Master...

I'm saying her growth probably won't be very interesting to watch.
 
Kylo Ren:

1. Wounded by a direct shot from a blaster that causes a pretty significant explosion upon impact.

2. Wounded by Finn when he used the lightsaber.

3. Unfocused, angry.

4. His ultimate goal is to capture Rey, not kill her, and as such is less inclined to commit to mortally wound her.

5. Is a Sith Padawan and has not even completed his training yet.

Rey:

1. Is very remarkable with the weapon she wields and, logically, would be able to wield a Lightsaber competently enough.

2. Is fighting for survival, and has no reason to not kill him given the opportunity.

Seriously, the sheer denial makes it seem like an outright desire for her to be a Mary Sue rather than the legitimate belief.

Yes and ALL of that is contradicted by the fight. ALL of it. Rey does not win for any of those reasons she wins because she communes with the force the movie makes that abundantly clear. In spite of all of that Kylo Ren was winning the fight until that point
 
But then you spend most of the movie preoccupied with where's Luke/Han/Leia, what happened to them, what are they doing now, etc. than focusing on the new shit.

I think the dynamic mostly works in VII: Han and Leia supplement the new leads, and Luke's absence helps drive the plot.

I guess I'm just really ready for Episode 8. Like, ok, we seen the old people, we did all the OT references...now for something new. That's the best way to honor Star Wars i think, by capturing that spirit of invention. They got some great new characters in Rey, Finn, Poe, BB-8, and Kylo Ren...tell some new stories with them. Leave the past behind.
 
No it's not Luke does not defeat Darth Vader in Episode IV, think how crazy that would have been if that happened, do you think Darth Vader would be seen as half the menacing villain as he's seen today. Luke hits a "lucky" shot Rey not only is stronger in the force than Kylo Ren (injured or not), she also best him in a lightsaber duel.

It's not "lucky" at all. He used the force to destroy the death star. Vader is much more powerful than Kylo Ren , is not a useful comparison .
 
Is this really the Luke Skywalker we remember? Would Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda condone Luke's actions? I would hope not.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Luke Skywalker.

Obiwan and Yoda wouldn't approve of becoming a hermit?

Come-on-son.jpg
 
BECAUSE IT'S THE FUCKING FORCE, and the entire point of it is that you tap into it to do shit you normally couldn't do.

In a joking sense, or you could become Anakin Skywalker and state things like "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count," "Love can't save you, only my new powers can," and "You underestimate my power! *Somersaults*"

Holy shit, what if this was intentionally done by Lucas in noting that Anakin was wrong for treating the Force like power levels and it actually was a mystical thing like Yoda said in ESB (and as you mentioned, you're supposed to tap into it)
 
Yes and ALL of that is contradicted by the fight. ALL of it. Rey does not win for any of those reasons she wins because she communes with the force the movie makes that abundantly clear. In spite of all of that Kylo Ren was winning the fight until that point

Rey is doing something she is trained in, and gets better because she uses the Force.

Luke is doing something he is trained in, and gets better because he uses the Force.

'Dat double standard
 
if anything Poe is way more OP than Rey. why people not complaining about him?

beautiful man who appeals to both sexes, somehow escapes death at every turn. best pilot in the galaxy. has his own awesome black x-wing.
 
Did you miss the rest of the movie, where it showed she already knew how to fight with a staff? She was just adapting those fighting skills to use with the lightsaber. It's the same thing Finn did, except he didn't have access to the force.

Also, i'm yet to see a coherent argument that shows how Rey using the force during the lightsaber duel is a bigger asspull than Luke blowing up the Death Star. Nowhere in ANH does Obi-Wan show Luke how to use the force to aim better at shit.

BECAUSE IT'S THE FUCKING FORCE, and the entire point of it is that you tap into it to do shit you normally couldn't do.

People need the entire back story and training montages with her in the staff. Also, when she says she's a pilot, they need to see her pilot's card to make sure she's one.
 
Kylo wasn't trying to kill Rey in the lightsaber fight. Snoke (still hate that name) told Kylo to bring Rey to him, and even during the fight itself Kylo wanted to teach her. (And someone makes that exact point while I was writing this, thanks!)

I think once Rey started winning, all thought of taking her alive was out of Kylo's head and he just wanted to survive the fight.

And yeah, Snoke is an awful name, and I would be shocked to learn the name didn't come from Lucas.
 
Did you miss the rest of the movie, where it showed she already knew how to fight with a staff? She was just adapting those fighting skills to use with the lightsaber. It's the same thing Finn did, except he didn't have access to the force.

Also, i'm yet to see a coherent argument that shows how Rey using the force during the lightsaber duel is a bigger asspull than Luke blowing up the Death Star. Nowhere in ANH does Obi-Wan show Luke how to use the force to aim better at shit.

BECAUSE IT'S THE FUCKING FORCE, and the entire point of it is that you tap into it to do shit you normally couldn't do.

When was the last time you watched E4 dude? Obi Wan told Luke to let go of his physical senses and trust the force in the scene on the ship with Han and the target remote. After a few failures he successfully used the force to predict the laser blasts and intercepted them. Later in the movie, the Obi Wan force ghost reached out to Luke and reminded him to trust his instincts and let go once again. That's not an ass pull.
 
I guess I'm just really ready for Episode 8. Like, ok, we seen the old people, we did all the OT references...now for something new. That's the best way to honor Star Wars i think, by capturing that spirit of invention. They got some great new characters in Rey, Finn, Poe, BB-8, and Kylo Ren...tell some new stories with them. Leave the past behind.

So what you're saying is, you can't wait for another Death Star adventure this year
 
Would I be correct in saying that it's the first Star Wars movie with no dismemberment?

Episode I: Maul gets cut in half
Episode II: Anakin loses forearm
Episode III: Dooku and Anakin loses multiple body parts
Episode IV: Dude at the cantina loses arm
Episode V: Luke loses hand
Episode VI: I guess Vader only loses a robo-hand

Doesn't
Kylo Ren get his hand cut off by Rey
?
 
People need the entire back story and training montages with her in the staff. Also, when she says she's a pilot, they need to see her pilot's card to make sure she's one.

Also, let's look back on Luke's "training" in A New Hope, shall we?

It consists entirely of him failing to block blaster bolts, Obi-Wan covering his eyes and telling him to act on instinct, and Luke immediately blocking blaster bolts blindfolded two seconds later, despite never even touching a lightsaber until he met Obi-Wan earlier that day.

I'm sorry, but Rey is the one pulling Mary Sue force powers out of nowhere? Excuse me?

When was the last time you watched E4 dude? Obi Wan told Luke to let go of his physical senses and trust the force in the scene on the ship with Han and the target remote. After a few failures he successfully used the force to predict the laser blasts and intercepted them. Later in the movie, the Obi Wan force ghost reached out to Luke and reminded him to trust his instincts and let go once again. That's not an ass pull.

And neither is anything Rey does in TFA.
 
Would I be correct in saying that it's the first Star Wars movie with no dismemberment?

Episode I: Maul gets cut in half
Episode II: Anakin loses forearm
Episode III: Dooku and Anakin loses multiple body parts
Episode IV: Dude at the cantina loses arm
Episode V: Luke loses hand
Episode VI: I guess Vader only loses a robo-hand

Doesn't get any more disrespectful than losing the one great link to all the films...
 
Rey is doing something she is trained in, and gets better because she uses the Force.

Luke is doing something he is trained in, and gets better because he uses the Force.

'Dat double standard

She's not trained using the force, Kylo Ren was extensively. Last time I checked the death star wasn't using the force to avoid Lukes shots.

But dem double standards maaannn...
 
Also, let's look back on Luke's "training" in A New Hope, shall we?

It consists entirely of him failing to block blaster bolts, Obi-Wan covering his eyes and telling him to act on instinct, and Luke immediately blocking blaster bolts blindfolded two seconds later, despite never even touching a lightsaber until he met Obi-Wan earlier that day.

I'm sorry, but Rey is the one pulling Mary Sue force powers out of nowhere? Excuse me?



And neither is anything Rey does in TFA.

We can't win, it's like trying to convince an anti-vaccer that vaccines aren't going to kill their kids.

She's not trained using the force, Kylo Ren was extensively. Last time I checked the death star wasn't using the force to avoid Lukes shots.

But dem double standards maaannn...

We have NO IDEA what Ben was trained in. All we see him is look fancy using the force (against non force users) and have temper tantrums. Luke probably couldn't do shit with him.
 
if anything Poe is way more OP than Rey. why people not complaining about him?

beautiful man who appeals to both sexes, somehow escapes death at every turn. best pilot in the galaxy. has his own awesome black x-wing.

Poe only ever kills people without names or faces, so it's reasonable to give him a different standard. To paraphrase Han: Poe's good against remotes; Rey's something different, she's good against the living.

Doesn't
Kylo Ren get his hand cut off by Rey
?

Nah, that shot is sort of sloppy but she just slices a corner of his cape off.
 
if anything Poe is way more OP than Rey. why people not complaining about him?

beautiful man who appeals to both sexes, somehow escapes death at every turn. best pilot in the galaxy. has his own awesome black x-wing.

Finn's a lucky guy.

I wonder who he'll choose in the end; Rey or Poe?

Good choice either way

9jvTL5g.gif
 
No it's not Luke does not defeat Darth Vader in Episode IV, think how crazy that would have been if that happened, do you think Darth Vader would be seen as half the menacing villain as he's seen today. Luke hits a "lucky" shot Rey not only is stronger in the force than Kylo Ren (injured or not), she also best him in a lightsaber duel.

Kylo Ren is not Darth Vader, either. Maybe... he just sucks as a lightsaber user? Has he even once deflect blaster bolts with it, anyway? I mean, Finn managed to wound him in one-on-one fight. Not even that Stormtrooper with that twirling baton got wounded by Finn.

Kylo's fight with Rey at the beginning consists of him doing wide, furious slashes and Rey panicking. The scenario of beating an opponent like that after calming down and focusing up is really not far-fetched.
 
May have been touched upon already, and checking the script would probably be the best way to confirm, but I don't think the Lightsaber itself was calling towards Rey. I think it was more that the Force was awakening in her and she could feel the memories and history that were attached to the device.

Your point about the audience's mindset is bleeding into the film itself is valid, I think. Didn't Disney/Abrams more or less state they wanted to make a movie for the fans? Wasn't that the primary reason they discarded Lucas's direction for the series?

Whether we like it or not, I think we need to just accept that the future of Star Wars will not be something the George Lucas ever envisioned. His legacy lives on with the original movies, but that's the past. He won't have much influence on the future.
 
We can't win, it's like trying to convince an anti-vaccer that vaccines aren't going to kill their kids.



We have NO IDEA what Ben was trained in. All we see him is look fancy using the force (against non force users) and have temper tantrums. Luke probably couldn't do shit with him.

He was trained by both Luke AND Snoke, even if they both completely half assed the training it would be leagues more than Rey ever got.
 
Kylo Ren is not Darth Vader, either. Maybe... he just sucks as a lightsaber user? Has he even once deflect blaster bolts with it, anyway? I mean, Finn managed to wound him in one-on-one fight. Not even that Stormtrooper with that twirling baton got wounded by Finn.

Kylo's fight with Rey at the beginning consists of him doing wide, furious slashes and Rey panicking. Even without all the Force mumbo-jumbo, the scenario of beating an opponent like that after calming down and focusing up is really not far-fetched.

Ben was toying with Finn b/c of how much he hated Finn b/c everything is Finn's fault. That's what happened when you toy with your food. If Ben wanted to have outright killed Finn, Finn would be dead.

He was trained by both Luke AND Snoke, even if they both completely half assed the training it would be leagues more than Rey ever got.

Again, we have NO IDEA what training he's gotten. We don't know length, and we don't know what it was like. Going to the dark side has made him emotionally unstable. He has killed a lot of people directly and he is messed in the head. He's not in tune with the light or the dark.
 
She's not trained using the force, Kylo Ren was extensively. Last time I checked the death star wasn't using the force to avoid Lukes shots.

But dem double standards maaannn...

And yet Luke was being pursued by a master of the Force, who is described as a great pilot. Who somehow had no idea that he was about to get shot at by Han Solo. Jeez Han Solo is such a Mary Sue, he doesn't even need the Force to one-up one of the most powerful users of the Force ever!

Seriously, nostalgia can blind you to flaws pretty solidly. :v
 
Would I be correct in saying that it's the first Star Wars movie with no dismemberment?

Episode I: Maul gets cut in half
Episode II: Anakin loses forearm
Episode III: Dooku and Anakin loses multiple body parts
Episode IV: Dude at the cantina loses arm
Episode V: Luke loses hand
Episode VI: I guess Vader only loses a robo-hand

How dare you sir, Ep 7 is a direct rip off/clone of Ep 4!

/s
 
Everything was going to go wrong for the OT characters anyway. There's no way it couldn't or else the story wouldn't have any tension. The only way to avoid them having crappy elderly lives would have been to jump the story forward far enough that they weren't involved.

The old EU ran into the same problem. The New Republic was established after Endor but rarely got a moment's peace with constant attacks from Imperial warlords and splinter factions (Zsinj, Ysard, Thrawn, Daala, the Crimson Empire, etc.), alien invasions (Nagai, Tof, Ssi-Ruuk, Yuuzhan Vong, etc.), Palpatine coming back to life, dark side splinter factions (Second Imperium, Empire Reborn, anything Lumiya was doing, etc.), culminating in the Vong killing trillions of people and the New Republic collapsing. So they set up the Galactic Alliance instead, which immediately becomes a dictatorship under Darth Caedus, who was Han and Leia's Jedi son who turned to the dark side and was killed by his sister Jaina (they also had another son, Anakin, who was killed in the Vong War), then the Senate got corrupted again when the Lost Tribe of the Sith stacked it and elected Abeloth. Then they finally got some peace, but two generations later the Galactic Alliance was defeated and the Jedi purged againin a war by the revived Empire and Sith, under the Fel dynasty and the One Sith ruled by Darth Krayt, until the Sith betrayed the Empire and went to war. The whole thing ended in an uneasy three-way government set up by Empress Marasiah Fel, the again-revived Jedi Order, and the resurrected Alliance.

At least it's more streamlined this time.
 
When was the last time you watched E4 dude? Obi Wan told Luke to let go of his physical senses and trust the force in the scene on the ship with Han and the target remote. After a few failures he successfully used the force to predict the laser blasts and intercepted them. Later in the movie, the Obi Wan force ghost reached out to Luke and reminded him to trust his instincts and let go once again. That's not an ass pull.

Right, but that's how usage of the force manifests itself. You let go of your physical senses, which lets the force take over those physical sense. Luke let go, which allowed the force to use his body.

That's what Rey did. She didn't win out of traditionally superior fighting skills, but the force allowed her to place the blade where it needed to be to beat down Kylo Ren, the same way Luke didn't see where the lasers were going, but the force put his lightsaber where it needed to be. The force isn't any single skill, but all the skills needed to do whatever the task is.
 
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