Star Wars VII doesn't respect the original trilogy (spoilers)

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I find it funny how so many have been heralding this film as a return to form for Star Wars. It's "recaptured the magic" as many love to say.

But in what way has it recaptured the magic? Visually? Sure! Creatively? Not even close.

With this analysis, I do not intend to nitpick endlessly about the many plot conveniences that the film utilizes, its striking similarities to A New Hope, or the empty shells that are its lead characters. Rather, I'd like to scrutinize the way the film handles its universe. How it treats returning characters and ideas like Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Leia, The Force, etc.

Also: I will be analyzing everything that occurs within the context of Episode VII alone. Perhaps some of these oddities will be explained in future Episodes. But that doesn't change the initial impression it left some of us with. It doesn't get a free pass just because it's Star Wars.

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Luke Skywalker:
By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke has redeemed his father. He's completed his training and has become the last Jedi Knight. He must pass on what he has learned and he must restore all that has been lost at the hands of the evil Empire. We're left to imagine a future in which Luke builds a new Jedi Order and restores peace and justice to the galaxy.

In The Force Awakens, we learn that Luke has failed to continue this legacy. The Empire has returned in the form of 'The First Order' and is now continuing their campaign of destruction and terror. In response to this, Luke has "vanished".

He's given up on the Jedi after Kylo Ren's turn to the Dark Side. Perhaps he believes that the Jedi are simply not worth the trouble? So, Luke isolates himself from the rest of the galaxy. In doing this, the Jedi would also fade away from existence.

Is this really the Luke Skywalker we remember? Would Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda condone Luke's actions? I would hope not.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Luke Skywalker.

Han Solo:
Galactic criminal turned General. A legend in every sense of the word. Must I really go on about this beloved character?

Fast forward to The Force Awakens, and Han has taken ten steps backward. He goes back to doing what he's "good at". He has undone all of his development from the original films and returns to a world of scum and villainy because his son succumbed to the Dark Side. Rather than pursue his son, he instead pursues his coveted ship, the Millennium Falcon, along with his drinking pal, Chewbacca.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Han Solo.

Leia Organa:
Leia has been fighting the same war for thirty years and has failed to stop the Empire from re-emerging into a position of ridiculous, unparalleled power. In fact, they may be more powerful than ever, given that their new Death Star -cough- Starkiller Base can destroy a whole bunch of planets at once with the power of the sun! How did a crumbling Empire acquire the resources for such a project without being noticed? How could Leia fail to address the issue of Starkiller Base before its completion? Is it merely incompetence on her part as a leader?

The galaxy is now in greater danger than ever before. What has Leia been doing for the past three decades? What was the point of the whole war? Were Luke, Han, and Leia to weak to stop the Empire?

In other words: "Pass the blow", said Princess Leia.

The Force:
The Force is nothing more than a superpower, according to The Force Awakens. It is now something that can be learned without the rigid discipline of Yoda or Obi-Wan. Now, if you believe hard enough, you can do anything with the Force!

Examples: Rey using Jedi mind tricks on a stormtrooper. Rey 'resisting' Kylo Ren. Rey going as far as to Force-pull a lightsaber into her grasp.

Luke's Lightsaber:
This is the most idiotic attempt by the film to 'respect' the original trilogy. In all of Star Wars' cinematic history, lightsabers were mere tools to a Jedi. An elegant weapon and nothing more. But now, lightsabers are mystical entities. They can "call to you", not unlike how the One Ring calls to Frodo in 'The Lord of the Rings'.

During the film's closing, Rey even goes as far as to 'return' the weapon to its owner, Luke. For reasons that I cannot comprehend, this scene has a ceremonial undertone, when the reality is that Luke never saw the weapon as anything more than, well, a weapon.

But, in favor of pleasing the fans with nostalgic imagery, the film defies all previously established logic and paints the weapon as something sacred.

So much so, that this is the ending shot of the film.

In a way, I believe this closing scene is symbolic of what the film ultimately is. It's a big, $200 million dollar misunderstanding of its source material. The film expects its audience to be too caught up in the fact that it's Luke's first lightsaber to realize just how absurd the whole scenario is. You see, to the majority of the audience, the lightsaber very much has become a sacred sort of object. And now, the audience's mindset is bleeding into the film itself.

Originality
Star Wars (1977) is an incredibly original film when you think of it in context. Give George Lucas all the shit you want, but the man was a visionary. He had big ideas. Even the Prequel trilogy was born out of some kind of creative spark. The Clone Wars is a great fictional setting, and fits into the Star Wars universe very well. The execution within the films, however, was questionable.

I will not go as far as to call The Force Awakens a worse film than The Phantom Menace. While that film was too distant from what made the originals so beloved, The Force Awakens is ultimately too derivative. It falls on the other extreme end of the spectrum. It's too safe. It exploits the nostalgic times we live in and gives people exactly what they want, but nothing more than that. It's the frankenstein monster of Star Wars films.

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Nothing has changed. The Rebels are still fighting the Empire. The Jedi are still on the brink of extinction. Our heroes accomplished nothing.

The Empire doesn't have to strike back because the Empire never left.

What was the fucking point?


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(Edit)

In regards to the new leads:

I can't say I'm surprised to see how big this thread has gotten. Reading through it, I see that some of you have put up fair arguments (while a few others have put up less-than-intelligent ones).

I'm seeing a lot of people repeating the same arguments, so I'd like to spin this discussion in a different direction by offering up another major issue I have with the film.

I'd like to address just how rushed The Force Awakens is when it comes to its new characters.

Here's a scene that I feel accurately reflects this particular gripe that I have with TFA:

Rey and Finn have just escaped Jakku aboard the Falcon. There's finally a moment of downtime; a moment ripe for some substantial character development. The film's 'heroes' finally introduce themselves to each-other.

"I'm Finn." "I'm Rey."

At last, we'll learn something about these characters, right? They'll learn interesting things about each other.

Rather than go this route, the writers instead opt for having the Falcon malfunction at that exact moment. It loudly spits steam from its mechanical underbelly, interrupting Rey and Finn's first quiet moment together, and consequentially triggering them to action.

If this scene could speak: "Hey, you two! What are you doing talking over there? This is a Star Wars movie, remember? Get over here and start doing all of those Star Wars things that we all remember!"

Rey and Finn never really share those essential character-defining moments. They're constantly fighting to survive, and the film mistakes this for genuine bonding.

Because of this, I find scenes like Rey's abduction at the pirate planet difficult to watch. When Finn sees Rey being carried into Kylo Ren's starship, he stops everything that he's doing to dramatically sprint in her direction, stop, and yell out "REYYYYYY!!!!"

How much does Finn know about Rey at this point? He doesn't know that she was a scavenger fighting against an incredibly harsh environment. He doesn't know that she's been waiting for her family for most of her life. He knows NOTHING about her, except that she can handle herself in a fight and is mechanically-inclined.

Emotional moments like these are not earned. And there's a handful of moments like these stringed throughout TFA. The film expects the audience to accept these characters for what they are at the most superficial level: A lonely scavenger and a Stormtrooper who has a moral compass.

Think about it. Besides Rey choosing to save BB-8 and Finn deciding to not leave with the pirates, what character-defining choices do we see them make? The writers choose to supply us with the absolute minimum amount of information possible about these characters, because there's no time. We just see them fighting hordes of enemies together, and apparently, that's enough to get us to 'relate' to them.



It's just lazy writing.
 

Meowster

Member
It felt more like to me it was a fuck ROTJ than the original trilogy. It's almost as if they went with the original ending they had in store for ROTJ before Lucas assumed direct control and made it a feel good and happy ending. I like some of the choices they made with this though.
 
I love the Force Awakens, and yet I somehow agree with just about all of your points.
Luke Skywalker:
By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke has redeemed his father. He's completed his training and has become the last Jedi Knight. He must pass on what he has learned and he must restore all that has been lost at the hands of the evil Empire. We're left to imagine a future in which Luke builds a new Jedi Order and restores peace and justice to the galaxy.

In The Force Awakens, we learn that Luke has failed to continue this legacy. The Empire has returned in the form of 'The First Order' and is now continuing their campaign of destruction and terror. In response to this, Luke has "vanished".

He's given up on the Jedi after Kylo Ren's turn to the Dark Side. Perhaps he believes that the Jedi are simply not worth the trouble? So, Luke isolates himself from the rest of the galaxy. In doing this, the Jedi would also fade away from existence.

Is this really the Luke Skywalker we remember? Would Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda condone Luke's actions? I would hope not.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Luke Skywalker.
I think Luke gets the largest pass here though. He brought balance back to the force, but the Jedi aren't a police group. It isn't his job to shape governments, to fight oppressors, etc. The Jedi are not peacekeepers. And I don't think he has given up on the Jedi. In fact, he is looking for the first Jedi temple for some sort of knowledge. More than likely something to help the Jedi in the end.
 

Acerac

Banned
This seems like the thing most in line with Han Solo's character from the trilogy.
Yeah, doesn't seem too far off character for Han. I enjoyed the rest of your writeup however, seeing The Empire remain nearly as strong as it ever was threw me off pretty hard.
 

Magwik

Banned
He's given up on the Jedi after Kylo Ren's turn to the Dark Side. Perhaps he believes that the Jedi are simply not worth the trouble? So, Luke isolates himself from the rest of the galaxy. In doing this, the Jedi would also fade away from existence.

Is this really the Luke Skywalker we remember? Would Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda condone Luke's actions? I would hope not.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Luke Skywalker.
He went to find the temple to presumably get stronger. Snoke probably out-powers him.
Also the fuck are you talking about? Obi-Wan and Yoda DID THE EXACT SAME THING
Fast forward to The Force Awakens, and Han has taken ten steps backward. He goes back to doing what he's "good at". He has undone all of his development from the original films and returns to a world of scum and villainy because his son succumbed to the Dark Side. Rather than pursue his son, he instead pursues his coveted ship, the Millennium Falcon, along with his drinking pal, Chewbacca.
He lost his son. His best friend disappeared. His wife drifted away from him. The only thing he had that he knew what to do with himself was smuggling.
The Force is nothing more than a superpower, according to The Force Awakens. It is now something that can be learned without the rigid discipline Yoda or Obi-Wan. Now, if you believe hard enough, you can do anything with the Force!

Examples: Rey using Jedi mind tricks on a stormtrooper. Rey 'resisting' Kylo Ren. Rey going as far as to Force-pull a lightsaber into her grasp.
The force has always been a superpower.
 
Yeah, doesn't seem too far off character for Han. I enjoyed the rest of your writeup however, seeing The Empire remain nearly as strong as it ever was threw me off pretty hard.
Stronger, somehow. Because sci fi movies aren't exciting unless planets explode.
 
I agree with a lot you said. Characters seemed to stuck in stasis for the 30 years between ROTJ and TFA. Han Solo is back doing what he's "good at" as part of the grieving process or whatever? Thats some lazy Lindelof type shit.
 

SephCast

Brotherhood of Shipley's
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Escape Goat

Member
Hans family fell apart. His relationship with Leia went with it. Its not hard to understand why Han went back to smuggling.
 
Luke was always a shitty Jedi. He shouldn't have tried to train anyone. I'm fine with how that turned out.

Han is back to being in-character after briefly becoming a completely different person in RotJ.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
Let's wait until the trilogy is finished before we make such a bold statement, also you can't expect everything to be all good after ROTJ otherwise we'd have no new story to tell.
 
I love the Force Awakens, and yet I somehow agree with just about all of your points. I think Luke gets the largest pass here though. He brought balance back to the force, but the Jedi aren't a police group. It isn't his job to shape governments, to fight oppressors, etc. The Jedi are not peacekeepers. And I don't think he has given up on the Jedi. In fact, he is looking for the first Jedi temple for some sort of knowledge. More than likely something to help the Jedi in the end.


I'm with you on this actually. As for the role of the Jedi, Luke had a chance to restore and/or remake their role in the galaxy.

My biggest annoyance is how the entire galaxy forgets about the Force/Jedi every 20 years. The "It's true, all of it" line was cool in the trailer, but the fuck?
 
Let's wait until the trilogy is finished before we make such a bold statement, also you can't expect everything to be all good after ROTJ otherwise we'd have no new story to tell.
Of course there will always be evil and war. But did it have to be same exact war?
 

bill0527

Member
How are you able to infer anything at all about Luke Skywalker's motivations when he did not utter one single line of dialogue in the movie and all we got was a very brief synopsis from Han Solo as to how Luke ended up 'walking away from everything'. In fact, this was nothing more than a statement of fact from Han, and Han didn't go into any reason as to why Luke decided to just walk away. We know virtually nothing about Luke in the last 30 years since RoTJ and judging by the way the story of TFA was constructed..this is by design.

In other words..more to come.
 

enigmatic_alex44

Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
Force Awakens is better than the OT in almost every way.

Rey, Finn and Poe are a much stronger trio of lead characters (plus more diverse). BB-8 is so much cuter and funnier than C3PO, that little robot just steals the show whereas C3PO just grates on your nerves. Visual design in TFA is much nicer.

The music and villain are better in the OT though. Emo Andy Samberg in a mask just can't compare to Vader and Palpatine.
 
Nothing has changed. The Rebels are still fighting the Empire. The Jedi are still on the brink of extinction. Our heroes accomplished nothing.

The Empire doesn't have to strike back because the Empire never left.

What was the fucking point?

Been saying this since the movie came out. Why should I give a shit that Finn & Rey are doing it this time?
Episode 10 just rolls around and they do it again.


It ruined the OT and I can't believe so many people are okay with it or don't care.
 
Except, it made sense when they did it.
What

No it didn't

Yoda's holding his own against the Emperor, gets knocked down and is like "eh whatever I'm out"

Han's the only one who bailed, Leia stuck around as a general and Luke went searching for the old Jedi temple to increase his power.

Also the Force has always been a superpower. There was no inconsistency with how it was portrayed in TFA versus any of the other films.
 

Cth

Member
Luke Skywalker:
By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke has redeemed his father. He's completed his training and has become the last Jedi Knight. He must pass on what he has learned and he must restore all that has been lost at the hands of the evil Empire. We're left to imagine a future in which Luke builds a new Jedi Order and restores peace and justice to the galaxy.

In The Force Awakens, we learn that Luke has failed to continue this legacy. The Empire has returned in the form of 'The First Order' and is now continuing their campaign of destruction and terror. In response to this, Luke has "vanished".

He's given up on the Jedi after Kylo Ren's turn to the Dark Side. Perhaps he believes that the Jedi are simply not worth the trouble? So, Luke isolates himself from the rest of the galaxy. In doing this, the Jedi would also fade away from existence.

Is this really the Luke Skywalker we remember? Would Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda condone Luke's actions? I would hope not.

In other words: "Fuck it all", said Luke Skywalker.

Well, wrong from the start, so I'll skip responding to the rest since it's likely as accurate.

You say Luke's legacy was to pass on what he learned.

Luke starts training Jedi and passes on what he learned. CHECK.

Peace and Justice was restored once the Emperor passed. CHECK.

No need for Luke to raise a Jedi army and set up Green Lantern patrols for the universe.

And the film answers what Luke did at that point in response. He went looking for the first Jedi temple.

Why? Kylo isn't trained. Luke knows Han and Leia are looking for him. His actions caused Kylo to fall, so does he risk making things worse? That's the responsible Luke from ROTJ. The one who could have killed the Emperor and saved the galaxy but refused to go to the dark side. Vader did the deed. Luke isn't infallible.

Indeed, FIA, with regards to what could have been a decent discussion.

EDIT: Not once in the OT was Luke ever charged to "restore all that has been lost at the hands of the evil Empire" by anyone. In fact, that's a slap in the face to the very concept of the Rebellion/Republic/etc. You're elevating Luke to Godhood and ignoring all the other characters.
 

Sober

Member
Yeah, doesn't seem too far off character for Han. I enjoyed the rest of your writeup however, seeing The Empire remain nearly as strong as it ever was threw me off pretty hard.
I imagine even if the emperor died there would maybe be a series of civil wars amongst high ranking officials in the empire until someone came out on top. The thing that would make it believeable is that no one in the newly-formed Republic - however that formed following the death of the Emperor (not a complete dissolution of Imperial power) - could manage to put enough manpower together to stop a bunch of squabbling Moffs and Admirals or what-have-you.

Remember, the Empire is huge and consolidated. It was like almost 25 years since Palp took control until the Battle of Yavin. It's not hard to believe blowing up 2 Death Stars is nothing more than a symbolic victory; sure they can't blow up a planet with impunity but they've had a quarter century churning out star destroyers, tie fighters and drilling stormtroopers and the rebellion has only been in relevance for maybe 5 years if we're being generous about their prominence prior to the Battle of Yavin.

I can only assume 30 years later the reformed Imperials and the reformed Republic sat sorta at a standstill or in some form of cold war until they fired of Starkiller Base and all that.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Obi-Wan's rigid training was putting a helmet on Luke and telling him to act on instinct. Then at the end, Ghost Obi-Wan says "use the Force," and Luke makes an impossible shot without the help of a targeting computer. By the time Empire rolled around, Luke was already pulling shit from a distance without anyone's help.

And I don't see what's disrespectful about Luke's plan to reinstate the Jedi not going as he wanted.

Han failing as a father fits perfectly in-line with his character.


Most of your issues boil down to "Nobody got a happily ever after ending"
 
Force Awakens is better than the OT in almost every way.

Rey, Finn and Poe are a much stronger trio of lead characters (plus more diverse). BB-8 is so much cuter and funnier than C3PO, that little robot just steals the show whereas C3PO just grates on your nerves. Visual design in TFA is much nicer.

The music and villain are better in the OT though. Emo Andy Samberg in a mask just can't compare to Vader and Palpatine.
Can you please explain all of this? How exactly are those characters stronger than Luke, Han, and Leia?
 
Force Awakens is better than the OT in almost every way.

Rey, Finn and Poe are a much stronger trio of lead characters (plus more diverse). BB-8 is so much cuter and funnier than C3PO, that little robot just steals the show whereas C3PO just grates on your nerves. Visual design in TFA is much nicer.

The music and villain are better in the OT though. Emo Andy Samberg in a mask just can't compare to Vader and Palpatine.
I liked Rey but I don't care much for the other two nor the villain. Feels like it depends too much on people caring about characters from the first 3 movies
 

SephCast

Brotherhood of Shipley's
Of course there will always be evil and war. But did it have to be same exact war?

It's not the same war? First Order feels more like a terrorist/extremist threat gone ballistic vs. what the empire was. Maybe I'm being too technical, but the First Order feels more Rebel Alliance sized.

Also you say "Nothing has changed. The Rebels are still fighting the Empire. The Jedi are still on the brink of extinction. Our heroes accomplished nothing. "

30 years of relative peace and prosperity isn't too bad?
 

jerry113

Banned
The First Order doesn't seem nearly as powerful as the Empire. it seems more like a North Korea (furnished with a fancy new megaweapon) to me.
 
I don't know why Luke would even want his old blue lightsaber back, since he has a superior green one.

Watch Episode VIII start with Luke telling Rey to keep it.
 
This trilogy is going to end with the kenobis always being the true chosen ones of the force, the ones that bring balance, and then we are going to get prequel prequel revolving around Obi Wan and his lineage.
 

MartyStu

Member
The First Order doesn't seem nearly as powerful as the Empire. it seems more like a North Korea (furnished with a fancy new megaweapon) to me.

Actually, we do not see enough to come to that conclusion.

JJ did a pretty poor job when it comes to presenting scope.
 

DOWN

Banned
Luke left in hopes that he would become wise enough so that next time he has the chance to teach an apprentice, he can succeed where he failed with Kylo. He is waiting for his destined apprentice.
 

Brakke

Banned
I don't think you're too far off. But crediting The OT as some bastion of "originality" is more complicated than you're giving it credit for. A New Hope is almost all pastiche and homage.
 
I agree with a lot you said. Characters seemed to stuck in stasis for the 30 years between ROTJ and TFA. Han Solo is back doing what he's "good at" as part of the grieving process or whatever? Thats some lazy Lindelof type shit.
They really needed to do a "I'm retired kid, I don't do that stuff anymore... Okay one last job." type thing, re introducing him to his old self. That would've been fun.
 
Is this really the Luke Skywalker we remember? Would Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda condone Luke's actions? I would hope not.

Didn't both of them do literally exactly the same thing?

Han Solo:
Galactic criminal turned General. A legend in every sense of the word. Must I really go on about this beloved character?

Fast forward to The Force Awakens, and Han has taken ten steps backward. He goes back to doing what he's "good at". He has undone all of his development from the original films and returns to a world of scum and villainy because his son succumbed to the Dark Side. Rather than pursue his son, he instead pursues his coveted ship, the Millennium Falcon, along with his drinking pal, Chewbacca.

So is regression not a valid character development path?

How did a crumbling Empire acquire the resources for such a project without being noticed? How could Leia fail to address the issue of Starkiller Base before its completion? Is it merely incompetence on her part as a leader?

The galaxy's a pretty big place, and the Resistance, while apparently conspicuously well-funded (I love how Star Wars is borrowing from FFXII now!), doesn't have unlimited resources and influence.

The galaxy is now in greater danger than ever before. What has Leia been doing for the past three decades? What was the point of the whole war? Were Luke, Han, and Leia to weak to stop the Empire?

To oust the Empire from power and establish a legitimate government.

By all accounts, this is definitely what happened, but the remaining faithful of the Empire have continued to operate a second military government in opposition to the New Republic.

The Force is nothing more than a superpower, according to The Force Awakens. It is now something that can be learned without the rigid discipline of Yoda or Obi-Wan. Now, if you believe hard enough, you can do anything with the Force!

How tremendously unfaithful to the original trilogy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDIrOE_fnl8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EwcYwax4Oo

This is the most idiotic attempt by the film to 'respect' the original trilogy. In all of Star Wars' cinematic history, lightsabers were mere tools to a Jedi. An elegant weapon and nothing more. But now, lightsabers are mystical entities. They can "call to you", not unlike how the One Ring calls to Frodo in 'The Lord of the Rings'.

Physical objects being imbued with Force energy isn't a new concept in Star Wars.

See: the cave on Dagobah, holocrons, etc.
 
Its almost like a deconstruction of the heroes, which is odd for a Star Wars movie. Luke Skywalker runs off not because he was defeated by an entire Empire like Yoda/Obi-Wan, because he got a sad when his students died. Han and Leia kid goes bad, and not only do they know where he is, but they don't even seem to give a damn about it. Han just gives up, and Leia keeps going like nothing happen.
 
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