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[ClosingADoor]

Having lived in the Middle East, I'll say this. When one destroys all the aspects that kept a society stable, it takes a long time to rebuild.

That is all true, but ultimately something the people there have to do themselves. The West can't do that for them. Anybody who thinks the West can solve this is basically promoting an all out occupation. Meanwhile we have different relatively stable countries there working against each other to increase the trouble, the biggest now being the Saudi's and Iran fighting their proxy wars.

Generally anywhere that has social economic depravity, or a lack of infrastructure, education etc, is going to have a greater number of people who are not as progressively mannered, not to modern Western developed standards anyway. That will be the case with many countries around the world, be it Africa, the Middle East, Asia, Eastern Europe, hell even in the West. You see it in diluted fashion in some of the heavily Republican states in America for example. You won't ever get rid of that, but the idea is to create a good process of assimilation that allows immigrants to better and more quickly learn cultural norms intrinsic to the nation they're residing. Obviously that is a process that takes time, but the alternative is essentially not taking people in, and essentially leaving them to die or starve.

Those are all very fine underlying reasons, but no solution. Unless you want to take everyone in and take decades to educate them with all the trouble that comes with it. A lot of people don't want that, and have also seen over the past decades that even that isn't always a solution. You can not have a good asylum process with the numbers coming in right now, it is impossible.

The alternative is not to let them die or starve. The alternative is having countries in the region take them in (some do already, but Northern African countries and Gulf states aren't very active with it as far as I know) and helping out in the funding and rebuilding.

It isn't as black and white as "take everyone in" or "let everybody starve".

Edit: And this keeps getting worse. Apparently 500 people in Bielefeld forced their way into a disco and assaulted women http://www.focus.de/regional/bielef...-schwerer-als-bislang-bekannt_id_5199077.html

"Only by using physical violence, we could help women to break free."

 

[Kunan]

What is this nonsense about "reyling on the inner good in all people"? Who says crap like this? Nobody. Just another phrase used by right wing radicals. The left in Germany is currently very critical of the police leadership in Cologne, and they wonder why they haven't used additional police forces like it was requested during planning, and why no backup was deployed during that night, when it was available. How does that fit in your theory, that leftists don't think there could be problems? Exactly, it doesn't.

I'm not even close to right wing. I was more talking about what kitch9 had brought up: talking and debating with people about the situation gets people labelled as right-wing radicals. I hope to goodness and am glad to hear you say that people in power are heavily critical and attempting to enact further action. I may have stepped out of line here as I'm not really familiar with Germany's internal politics. I was talking more about debating things with peers, and could have worded things better.

 

[kitch9]

You mentioned you were a Christian. Presumably you don't think you are superior to women in every way, despite how similar teachings are in the Bible regarding women's rights to the Qur'an. That was exactly my point. It's a stupid bigoted generalisation with no factual basis.

Please don't reply to me, I'm sure your screen displays different words to what I type.

I'm only Christian on the basis I got baptised as a kid cos the parents wanted a party. That was done long before I had the ability to make a choice myself.

'Bout as far as it gets, barring the odd funeral, same as pretty much the rest of Europe.

Oh, I once played Herrod in the school nativity. So there's that.

 

[nib95]

Please don't reply to me, I'm sure your screen displays different words to what I type.

I'm only Christian on the basis I got baptised as a kid cos the parents wanted a party.

'Bout as far as it gets, barring the odd funeral, same as pretty much the rest of Europe.

Oh, I once played Herrod in the school nativity. So there's that.

You're missing the point. Even if you were a practising Christian, and had read or even memorised the Bible, it doesn't automatically mean you will see yourself as superior to women in every way, in the same way that is not the case for all Muslim men either. It was an idiotic generalisation.

 

[kirblar]

You're missing the point. Even if you were a practising Christian, and had read or even memorised the Bible, it doesn't automatically mean you will see yourself as superior to women in every way, in the same way that is not the case for all Muslim men either. It was an idiotic generation.

It's not a generalization to say that the incoming refugees are all coming from areas with vastly different cultural norms regarding the treatment of women.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You're missing the point. Even if you were a practising Christian, and had read or even memorised the Bible, it doesn't automatically mean you will see yourself as superior to women in every way, in the same way that is not the case for all Muslim men either. It was an idiotic generalisation.

In the countries most of these immigrants are from the general thought is that men are worth more then women. Is that the case for everyone? No. But it is for a lot and that creates problems and should be taken into account when dealing with a refugee crisis like this.

 

[kitch9]

It's not a generalization to say that the incoming refugees are all coming from areas with vastly different cultural norms regarding the treatment of women.

He looks for offence in the darkest corners.

Islam absolutely does not treat women as equals and is still largely used to create laws in Islamic countries.

You can't say that though because the truth is racist and Christianity.

Or something.

 

[Thornquist]

You state that as though it is a fact, what do you say to this article then? I wouldn't say it's strange, especially when the journey can result in drowned little boys washing ashore on Turkish beaches. A lot of them make the journey first to secure safer passage for their family, my father did the exact same thing decades ago even so I hope you'll understand why I think you're a bit of a dick for thinking they don't care about their families and are fine with abandoning them.

Im sorry but when you are fleeing a war-zone, you dont let your wives and children be left behind to "secure passage". Literally anywhere else is better than where they are. Add to the fact that studies suggest alot of them arent even refugees from Syria, it sounds to me like there are many men in that group who are simply looking for a better life in the west. I dont think Im a "dick" for questioning that.
And this question isnt just about the refugees being a burden or not, but if they can integrate into our culture. Because I dont want many aspects of their culture in my country - and I dont believe in multiculturism. I have still to see any study showing that this particular demographic integrates well into our culture. The sizable turkey minority in German is a good example.

I have explained why the majority are young males, but you choose to ignore that fact that the EU are the ones responsible for the current situation due to policies they make.

And since you can't see the correlation between the invasion of Iraq and the war i Syra perhaps Dick Cheney could help you out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENbElb5-xY
Or are you seriously saying that that Iraq war didn't destabilize the region?

Perhaps you could say how this is "something that goes much deeper"?

At the end of the day the west must own the fuck up to what it has done in the middle east.

You keep saying that "this will happen again" and I agree to some extent.
I agree to the extent that patriarchal oppression will continue and every man of every creed and color must take their responsibility.
We must

Even if the EU's policy is somewhat to blame in the large quantity of males, I dont believe the answer lies in letting more people come here.

The truth is that if Europe opened its borders, there would be millions upon millions who would migrate here, because people want to seek a better life (and who could blame them?). I was traveling in Pakistan a couple of years ago, and even there, there was people who tried to find ways to come to the west (as they asked me if there where white women who was looking to marry). This will continue in large scales going forward. And Europe will be forced to start building walls and fences to keep them out - because we cant help everybody.

And If you think a quote from Dick Cheney in 1994 is "proof" that the west is to blame for the situation in Syria, you need to dig deeper.

 

[Kinokou]

Uh.. and the right vs left continues. At least there seems to have been a separate flashmob against male violence at the same time.

Quite frustrating to have no middle ground, who wants to align with that far right mob. 800 of the 1700 people were hooligans, the other half I guess NPD and other Rattenfänger...
http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/koeln-pegida-101.html
(Also is that one guy really doing the Hitler salute?)

The German article also gives an update on the numbers:
379 criminal charges in cologne for NYE. 40% with sexual assault. Most suspects still are young men from North-African countries. Currently the majority are asylum seekers or illegal immigrants (haven't heard that one yet TBH).

Wonder when we will reach the top.

Edit: And this keeps getting worse. Apparently 500 people in Bielefeld forced their way into a disco and assaulted women http://www.focus.de/regional/bielef...-schwerer-als-bislang-bekannt_id_5199077.html

Could this be a kind of social terrorism? With so much going on it kind of seems like someone are wanting to give refugees a bad image and sow discord in Germany.
It's probably way easier to requite someone to grope and assault women than to kill and (suicide)bomb.

 

[nib95]

In the countries most of these immigrants are from the general thought is that men are worth more then women. Is that the case for everyone? No. But it is for a lot and that creates problems and should be taken into account when dealing with a refugee crisis like this.

But this is not a matter of fact and is completely up for debate. Many would argue that Islamically women are regarded as more important than men, though it really depends on the subject and area being discussed. In terms of overall importance to mankind, women are referred to as three times more important than men in the Qur'an, and a mother always more important than a father.

I think one of the issues is, much like in so many developing countries presently and throughout history, men in power, where there is a lack of democracy and educational creativity, often tend to be very resistant to women's rights, and this has cultural implications and ramifications. I do believe this will improve over time, just as it did in the West over the course of the last century, but it certainly doesn't help when the entire region is in a constant state of instability. Hell, places like Iran and Afghanistan were far better off in terms of political progress and women's rights, 70 years ago than they are today.

This is Afghanistan in the 50's.

 

[kitch9]

But this is not a matter of fact and is completely up for debate. Many would argue that Islamically women are regarded as more important than men, though it really depends on the subject and area being discussed. In terms of overall importance to mankind, women are referred to as three times more important than men in the Qur'an, and a mother always more important than a father.

I think one of the issues is, much like in so many developing countries presently and throughout history, men in power, where there is a lack of democracy and educational creativity, often tend to be very resistant to women's rights, and this has cultural implications and ramifications. I do believe this will improve over time, just as it did in the West over the course of the last century, but it certainly doesn't help when the entire region is in a constant state of instability. Hell, places like Iran and Afghanistan were far better off in terms of political progress and women's rights, 70 years ago than they are today.

This is Afghanistan in the 50's.

Divorce,

Marriage,

Child Custody,

Number of husbands,

Driving,

Employment.

Holding positions in state office.

Attire.

Talk to me.

What's cherry picked pictures from 1950s Afghanistan got to do with anything? This is 2016.

 

[Phantast2k]

But this is not a matter of fact and is completely up for debate.

Your interpretation of Koran is meaningless. It is a matter of fact in countries in which Islam is state or predominant religion: 4th result for "gender equality poll"...

YouGov research from 24 countries reveals where the genders are considered most and least equal, the connection to wealth and where Britain falls behind the developed world

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/11/12/global-gender-equality-report/

Countries which the people accused of the thing in this topic are from.

And your pics are from Kabul and do not paint a complete picture of Afghanistan at that time.

And no, this is not "only culture". Pretty much ever definition of culture includes religion or belief.

 

[G.ZZZ]

You're missing the point. Even if you were a practising Christian, and had read or even memorised the Bible, it doesn't automatically mean you will see yourself as superior to women in every way, in the same way that is not the case for all Muslim men either. It was an idiotic generalisation.

Too bad in europe "christians" aren't religious and 90% of them never read anything from the bible and are taught usually only some quotes from hippy jesus like "who has no sin cast the first stone" or shit like that, while in the middle east they treat women worse than they did in south italy 60 years ago and they are taught that it's all for "their own good". Christians also are taught the wars of religion , the schism, and whatever shit and that tend to put a lot of their "holy book" in perspective since there are many different christians sects. On the other hand, Muslims are taught that written book is the literal word of god.

Christianity in europe is mostly a label of folklore not some way of life that promote sexism and patriarchism. You can't say the same about any muslim country in the world, except maybe Turkey and even Turkey has to deal with a lot of embarassing shit from a western perspective, even if turks are generally much more progressive than their government and general public image would make us believe.

It's year 2 0 1 6 and some of us saw all the fights for progressive rights, especially in some southern countries like italy were we arrived extremely late at the civil rights party, and seriously i can't stand this shit that in the year 2 0 1 6 A.D. i have to hear politicians say that women have to dress in a certain way because some men still havent' got the memo.

No country in europe could take 1 million people from the middle east and it was clear from the start, but our politicians stalled the debate by extremizing the factions and making impossible to do anything.
Also fuck the US and their proxy wars , and the UK for following them. Leave the middle east solve its shit alone. We've been in there for 60 years and things have only gotten worse. This racist mentality that "we have to get there doing things because they're not good doing it themselves" of the US has created the most unstable region in the world that hate all of the western world because we acted like it was a moral obligation to bomb this and ally with that.

EDIT: i see bigots can't help but bury their head in the sand. "Different but equal", yeah but men decided that. "But they are more important in the family" yeah but men decided that. At the same time, horror at other people generalizing and saying people from different countries have different values! How could u decide for them! The uncivilized racist! Lmao.

 

[kitch9]

Your interpretation of Koran is meaningless. It is a matter of fact in countries in which Islam is state or predominant religion: 4th result for "gender equality poll"...

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/11/12/global-gender-equality-report/



Countries which the people accused of the thing in this topic are from.

And your pics are from Kabul and do not paint a complete picture of Afghanistan at that time.

And no, this is not "only culture". Pretty much ever definition of culture includes religion or belief.

Careful, you might be called a bigot with all these facts you keep spewing.

 

[nib95]

Divorce,

Marriage,

Child Custody,

Number of husbands,

Driving,

Employment.

Holding positions in state office.

Attire.

Talk to me.

Divorce proceedings favour men in terms of obtaining the divorce, women in terms of wealth distribution. Men are usually always the one's who have to pay a Mahr to women, not the other way around, no matter how wealthy the women is.

Women are by and large given child custody except in rare circumstances. This is unfair on father's imo.

I agree, it's stupid. Not that any man would be able to treat all 4 wives completely equally either way. It's a silly rule.

Muslim women can drive in the vast majority of Muslim countries in the world. In-fact, there is nothing in Islamic jurisprudence that states otherwise. It's not like cars were invented back when Islam started lol. This is on the stupidity of Saudi Arabia's law makers.

Employment depends on which Islamic countries you're speaking of. In certain Muslim countries more females are employed than men, e.g. Indonesia and Bangladesh, in others the employment differences are definitely depressing and in need of change. Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan unsurprisingly fare among the worst.

Similar answer to the above for politics.

Attire, what about it? Islamically men and women are supposed to dress moderately. Some men and women do, some don't. I don't think it is obligatory for women to wear headscarfs even in Saudi Arabia, though you could argue there is social pressure. As above, in many other Muslim countries large swaths of the female population do not cover up, but that is a purely subjective decision. There is no compulsion Islamically speaking, and ultimately it is the decision of the female in question.

Anyway, kind of veering OT here lol. I don't know what you're getting at, because I agree that many of these Muslim countries have to make massive improvements. Same for many non Muslim countries too.


EDIT: The Afghanistan photo's were supposed to show that democracy and/or prosperity generally lend to social progress as well. And that one of the reasons the region is so messed up right now, is because of the constant state of war, instability, displacement, dictatorships, civil wars etc. You can see how these things have affected countries in the region, like Afghanistan and Iran, just by comparing how they were before some of these things started, to how they are today.

 

[Crash Station]

Please, just say what you really want. "Controlled immigration" would not have prevented this. But that's not what you really want. What you want is almost zero immigration. What you want is to refuse help to millions of innocent people who are fleeing from death and destruction. Because of what? Because of an incident, where a handful people was involved, and which would have been preventable, if the police had acted properly? Because of a few bad people you want to refuse help to millions?

You are not an average person. You can repeat it a thousand times, you can walk through the streets with your friends and shout "Wir sind das Volk" (We are the people), but you are not representative of the German people in any way, and you are not an average person. Because the average person in Germany is a decent human being, respects human rights and wants to help people who need help. Even if it is hard sometimes.

Seriously dude, do you really think jumping down someone's throat at the slightest mention of an issue with the policy is going to make people sympathetic to the cause? Making dangerous accusations like that is exactly what's pushing moderates and even left-leaning people to the far right. You blaming the police more than, you know, the actual criminals and comparing the event to something with exponentially more people with a smaller percentage of cases isn't helping.

 

[kitch9]

Seriously dude, do you really think jumping down someone's throat at the slightest mention of an issue with the policy is going to make people sympathetic to the cause? Making dangerous accusations like that is exactly what's pushing moderates and even left-leaning people to the far right. You blaming the police more than, you know, the actual criminals and comparing the event to something with exponentially more people with a smaller percentage of cases isn't helping.

Love the people want to help at any cost line, lol. What's a few thousand sexual assaults if it means that we don't have to even do the most arbitrary checks on migrant people?

Seriously the left can be frightening at times.

 

[ClosingADoor]

But this is not a matter of fact and is completely up for debate. Many would argue that Islamically women are regarded as more important than men, though it really depends on the subject and area being discussed. In terms of overall importance to mankind, women are referred to as three times more important than men in the Qur'an, and a mother always more important than a father.

I think one of the issues is, much like in so many developing countries presently and throughout history, men in power, where there is a lack of democracy and educational creativity, often tend to be very resistant to women's rights, and this has cultural implications and ramifications. I do believe this will improve over time, just as it did in the West over the course of the last century, but it certainly doesn't help when the entire region is in a constant state of instability. Hell, places like Iran and Afghanistan were far better off in terms of political progress and women's rights, 70 years ago than they are today.

This is Afghanistan in the 50's.

What does any of this have to do with the situation we face today? Yes, it will probably improve over time when the economies go up and people demand more rights. That is a battle they will have to fight for themselves. We can't do that for them, since then you will just be an oppressive force and seen as the enemy.

As of this moment, it is a fact that most Middle-eastern countries are less progressive on things like womens rights, LGTB rights and more. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.

 

[hohoXD123]

Im sorry but when you are fleeing a war-zone, you dont let your wives and children be left behind to "secure passage". Literally anywhere else is better than where they are. Add to the fact that studies suggest alot of them arent even refugees from Syria, it sounds to me like there are many men in that group who are simply looking for a better life in the west. I dont think Im a "dick" for questioning that.
And this question isnt just about the refugees being a burden or not, but if they can integrate into our culture. Because I dont want many aspects of their culture in my country - and I dont believe in multiculturism. I have still to see any study showing that this particular demographic integrates well into our culture. The sizable turkey minority in German is a good example.

What studies are you referring to? Ones from the gutter press which have been shown to be BS?

See, now you're changing your words slightly. You went from suggesting a policy of banning adult males from the region entering Europe, stating that the sizeable majority of refugees are males who have no problems with abandoning their families, to saying that "many" male refugees are looking for a better life in the west. I think you do see how much of a dick you were being for insulting men who are risking their own lives for their family. Maybe the story of this Syrian refugee will open your eyes, but I doubt it.

Whether refugees were more of a burden than a benefit to society or not is literally the question I asked you, and when showing you evidence on why your views were wrong, you resort to asking a different question entirely on integration. What sort of studies would you like exactly? Financial contribution to their country of residence is already one measure. I don't think any studies will satisfy you tbh, you've already made up your mind.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Maybe the story of this Syrian refugee will open your eyes, but I doubt it.

How is pointing out a single success story somehow proving your total point? Then I might as well point to one assault a refugee committed and do just the same from the other side. You can't pick and choose your examples like that.

That's oversimplyfiying it a bit. Many countries have christian sects that live partly outside the normal society. These can limit the rights of women in many ways, and also protect pedophiles and criminals from the law. In Finland it feels like muslims have generally been intergrating better to modern society than some of these christians.

I doubt you find many people who will agree with you on that. While I'm sure there are criminals among those, I haven't read any stories about now literally hundreds of cases of sexual assault on one night like we are seeing now.

And it is not really about being Muslim or Christian to me anyway. Have your views, I don't care. If you want to think women are less, go right ahead, I am not going to police your thoughts. The problem comes when you act on those views and start hurting people.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Too bad in europe "christians" aren't religious.

That's oversimplyfiying it a bit. Many countries have christian sects that live partly outside the normal society. These can limit the rights of women in many ways, and also protect pedophiles and criminals from the law. In Finland it feels like muslims have generally been intergrating better to modern society than some of these christians.

 

[Bollocks]

oh god, who dragged christianity into this discussion?

 

[hohoXD123]

How is pointing out a single success story somehow proving your total point? Then I might as well point to one assault a refugee committed and do just the same from the other side. You can't pick and choose your examples like that.

Did you even read the story? Because you seem to be missing the point. It's an example of a case of an adult Syrian male refugee who didn't abandon his family to live a better life for himself in Europe with no fucks given, which the poster I was replying to couldn't seem to get his head around.

 

[kitch9]

What studies are you referring to? Ones from the gutter press which have been shown to be BS?

See, now you're changing your words slightly. You went from suggesting a policy of banning adult males from the region entering Europe, stating that the sizeable majority of refugees are males who have no problems with abandoning their families, to saying that "many" male refugees are looking for a better life in the west. I think you do see how much of a dick you were being for insulting men who are risking their own lives for their family. Maybe the story of this Syrian refugee will open your eyes, but I doubt it.

Whether refugees were more of a burden than a benefit to society or not is literally the question I asked you, and when showing you evidence on why your views were wrong, you resort to asking a different question entirely on integration. What sort of studies would you like exactly? Financial contribution to their country of residence is already one measure. I don't think any studies will satisfy you tbh, you've already made up your mind.

No one's saying that there aren't genuine people with need, there are. The frustrating thing over this whole shit show is thanks to insane decisions by politicians they are split from family and finding it much harder to find help than they should be because they are getting trampled on by large numbers who are disingenuous and want to cause trouble.

There was never going to be an easy fix to this issue but opening the borders of a continent and telling people to run to smugglers and travel miles of sea in a dinghy sure as shit wasn't the answer.

It was complete lunacy to which I struggle to comprehend.

I'm sure the EU and the affluent middle eastern states could have rustled up a few billion between them and set up secure camps near their country of origin. Safe camps where people can be processed, assessed and considered for refugee status in the EU. We could even have the presence of secret services and armed forces there to gain further intelligence.

That way we have an idea where people are from, the piss takers get kicked out the camps and those who need help actually get it.

If that makes me a bigot, well....

I'm a bigot.

Merkel has a lot to answer for it was the biggest fuck up I've ever seen.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Did you even read the story? Because you seem to be missing the point. It's an example of a case of an adult Syrian male refugee who didn't abandon his family to live a better life for himself in Europe with no fucks given, which the poster I was replying to couldn't seem to get his head around.

And that is pretty anecdotal. You are pointing at a single story about this. I have seen no proof anywhere that all these men are saving up money here to bring their families over. Will some? Sure. But a lot also will not.

 

[MisterFalcon]

And your pics are from Kabul and do not paint a complete picture of Afghanistan at that time.

Yeah, this is from LIFE magazine 1956:

 

[Thornquist]

What studies are you referring to? Ones from the gutter press which have been shown to be BS?

See, now you're changing your words slightly. You went from suggesting a policy of banning adult males from the region entering Europe, stating that the sizeable majority of refugees are males who have no problems with abandoning their families, to saying that "many" male refugees are looking for a better life in the west. I think you do see how much of a dick you were being for insulting men who are risking their own lives for their family. Maybe the story of this Syrian refugee will open your eyes, but I doubt it.

Whether refugees were more of a burden than a benefit to society or not is literally the question I asked you, and when showing you evidence on why your views were wrong, you resort to asking a different question entirely on integration. What sort of studies would you like exactly? Financial contribution to their country of residence is already one measure. I don't think any studies will satisfy you tbh, you've already made up your mind.

I suggested to letting women and children be the biggest majority of the refugees yes. I never said to exclude males in all cases - of course there will be good exceptions.

Women and particularly children are usually the biggest victims in crises such as these. I dont think the general idea of letting them have priority as a bad idea. If this is even feasible in practice is another issue, which I am more willing to agree to not have enough knowledge.

And if it seemed like painted every refugee currently residing in Germany as a cold, calculated opportunist, that was not my intention.

I am also fully aware that the west need immigrants to keep the economy rolling. But I think people from Middle-Eastern countries are generally a poor choice for this. Thats mostly because of cultural reasons. If that labels me a rightwing nutjob, then so be it.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Love the people want to help at any cost line, lol. What's a few thousand sexual assaults if it means that we don't have to even do the most arbitrary checks on migrant people?

Seriously the left can be frightening at times.

1. We don't want to help at "any cost". Stop lying. There wouldn't have been any "cost", if the police leadership hadn't fucked up.

2. Why the hell are you now talking about "a few thousand sexual assaults"?

3. "Arbitrary checks" on migrant people would not have prevented this incident.

 

[Calamari41]

Seriously dude, do you really think jumping down someone's throat at the slightest mention of an issue with the policy is going to make people sympathetic to the cause? Making dangerous accusations like that is exactly what's pushing moderates and even left-leaning people to the far right. You blaming the police more than, you know, the actual criminals and comparing the event to something with exponentially more people with a smaller percentage of cases isn't helping.

This is the trap that the left has set for themselves by portraying any and all disagreement with an open borders refugee policy as full-bore Nazi hatred. They've alienated anybody who had concerns, and now they're panicking as the far right sees support surge due to the fact that things haven't been nearly as smooth as they promised.

 

[Glitchfire]

Many say we should look at Nordic countries as an example for the benefits of democratic socialism.

Lately, these Nordic countries have had huge domestic backlash against mass-immigration -- especially from the Middle East.

A society that has a high social safety net cannot have lax immigration laws.

If you want to read more:
Nordic people are tired of the degradation of the homogeneity of their society. Just look at the most recommended comments on this economist article.
http://www.economist.com/news/speci...y-are-making-nordics-less-homogeneous-ins-and

Right parties continue to gain strength in nordic countries, fueled by immigration.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...ordic-countries-denmark-sweden-finland-norway

Race/culture is an extremely polarizing and difficult thing to discuss these days. Anything contrarian to support of mass-immigration and diversity is labeled as "xenophobic," "islamophobic," or just simply "intolerant." But I recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0965638391/?tag=neogaf0e-20 if you want a contrarian point of view. Of course the book's title and overall meaning seems unpalatable by some, but there are a lot of truths and interesting arguments to be had -- as uncomfortable as they sometimes can be.

 

[kitch9]

1. We don't want to help at "any cost". Stop lying. There wouldn't have been any "cost", if the police leadership hadn't fucked up.

2. Why the hell are you now talking about "a few thousand sexual assaults"?

3. "Arbitrary checks" on migrant people would not have prevented this incident.

Merkel fell over herself to make her look like some shining angel at any cost and it's exploded in her face, I wonder if she can sleep at night. She's endangered her own people and the very people she made out she wanted to help.

Pathetic really.

Yeah, it was the polices fault, I mean why wouldn't they mobilise across the country in readiness for mass sexual attacks? All they had to do was make they had their knee pads on and crawl around on the floor keeping an eye out for dudes copping a cheeky feel.

Happens all the time!

Don't read the news much then?

The lefts delusional denial of the problems they cause due to lack of simple thought astounds me sometimes.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Dude, there have been requests during planning for additional police forces. During the night, neighbouring districts offered to deploy an additional 114 police men to Cologne main station. The police leadership in Cologone refused these demands and offers. This incident could have been prevented.

 

[kitch9]

Dude, there have been requests during planning for additional police forces. During the night, neighbouring districts offered to deploy an additional 114 police men to Cologne main station. The police leadership in Cologone refused these demands and offers. This incident could have been prevented.

No they couldn't, dudes randomly abusing distracted women in a big crowd is impossible to police until after. Easy to disappear. Even easier to disappear if you aren't on a countries database somewhere.

Sad how you blame everyone but the scum who did this, frightening thing is there's people with your mindset in positions of power.

 

[KDR_11k]

I'm sure the EU and the affluent middle eastern states could have rustled up a few billion between them and set up secure camps near their country of origin. Safe camps where people can be processed, assessed and considered for refugee status in the EU. We could even have the presence of secret services and armed forces there to gain further intelligence.

That way we have an idea where people are from, the piss takers get kicked out the camps and those who need help actually get it.

Merkel probably assumed that that would be the next step. Currently most of the refugees are bunched up in Turkish camps that are collapsing under the numbers (and their asylum processing bureaus are giving people examination dates several years away until which they cannot leave the overcrowded camps!) while the gulf states don't take any (though getting to those would require refugees to cross through ISIS and Assad territory). Probably would be even worse in Turkey if the EU didn't take any at all.

If Europe was cooperating and distributing the refugees properly the density would be low and manageable but instead everybody tries to block as much as possible out of sheer xenophobia (I'm sorry, I can't take anyone seriously who claims that 500 refugees would destroy a nation as those eastern European politicians are claiming). Of course it doesn't help that a load of eastern European chancers are mixing into the refugee stream but no matter what checks we do or don't, we have to place everyone who comes into a camp before we check whether they're eligible. It's that camp stage that's the problem.

Meanwhile people whine that any refugee who doesn't stay in Turkey (remember, overcrowded camps and asylum applications that take several years to process) is an economic migrant and must be sent back. Looking at you, UK.

 

[Forsete]

frightening thing is there's people with your mindset in positions of power.

Not for long, when looking at how things are developing.

 

[norm9]

Now might be a good time to stop the flow of refugees and migrants, and work on the screening process (like letting in women and children first, determining whether they're actually coming from a warzone and not just a leech, making sure there's space in these camps) before opening it back up again. Disclaimer, I'm not a racist.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

No they couldn't, dudes randomly abusing distracted women in a big crowd is impossible to police until after. Easy to disappear.

Are you now making stuff up? Additional police force could have prevented this.

Sad how you blame everyone but the scum who did this, frightening thing is there's people with your mindset in positions of power.

What the hell are you talking about? There is no doubt that the perpetrators are guilty. But the police leadership also failed to do their job, and this has to be addressed. What are you doing? You are blaming Merkel for a police fuckup in Cologne. You want to punish refugees because there are a few bad people among them. How many refugees are there? One million? More? There are ~30 suspects currently, and you want to make the miserable life of all refugees even harder? This is frightening. People like you, with a lack of empathy.

Not for long, when looking at how things are developing.

Keep on dreaming. The right has no chance in the more progressive European countries.

Now might be a good time to stop the flow of refugees and migrants, and work on the screening process (like letting in women and children first, determining whether they're actually coming from a warzone and not just a leech, making sure there's space in these camps) before opening it back up again. Disclaimer, I'm not a racist.

Great idea, let's make a few phone calls to ISIS and tell them to stop fighting. That should "stop" the flow of refugees.

 

[nib95]

Now might be a good time to stop the flow of refugees and migrants, and work on the screening process (like letting in women and children first, determining whether they're actually coming from a warzone and not just a leech, making sure there's space in these camps) before opening it back up again. Disclaimer, I'm not a racist.

I agree with better screening and checks (though the equally important thing is better assimilation opportunities and education), but I don't agree with only letting women and children in first. To me that is a potentially awful idea. It should just be families full stop (whether that means children with a mother and father, or single parent only, whether male or female). Otherwise to pull away a husband from his wife and kids, when they are at their most vulnerable and needy, alone in an entirely new country and place, just seems like a terrible policy.

 

[Winnie the Pimp]

This may just be irrational pessimism on my part but... why do i sometimes get the feeling that this current refugee crisis will keep us busy, constantly trying to come up with new ways to handle this situation for years if not decades, until... climate change will finally catch up and have WAY bigger numbers of people fleeing their homelands which will have become uninhabitable by then (like some experts suggest apparently) and come knocking at the door as well? The EU nations really need to get their shit together, it's not like we have forever to get these issues sorted.

 

[RubberJohnny]

I agree with better screening and checks, but not to only letting women and children in first. To me that is a potentially awful idea. It should just be families full stop (whether that means children with a mother and father, or single parent only, whether male or female). Otherwise to pull away a husband from his wife and kids, when they are at their most vulnerable and needy, alone in an entirely new country and place, just seems like a terrible policy.

"Women and children first" is a pretty standard policy in emergencies and has been for centuries.

 

[Breakage]

This may just be irrational pessimism on my part but... why do i sometimes get the feeling that this current refugee crisis will keep us busy, constantly trying to come up with new ways to handle this situation for years if not decades, until... climate change will finally catch up and have WAY bigger numbers of people fleeing their homelands which will have become uninhabitable by then (like some experts suggest apparently) and come knocking at the door as well? The EU nations really need to get their shit together, it's not like we have forever to get these issues sorted.

Aren't we going to "liberate" Syria with a ground war at some point tho? That'll ramp up the numbers of refugees fleeing sooner rather than later.

 

[nib95]

"Women and children first" is a pretty standard policy in emergencies and has been for centuries.

Yea, when you're fleeing from a capsizing boat or something, sure, but in these circumstances I think it would do far more long term harm to separate the fathers from their families, especially at such a crucial point. I can imagine it would be hugely unnecessarily distressing to the women and children in question. If you mean women and children where there is no male guardian, well that's different.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Many say we should look at Nordic countries as an example for the benefits of democratic socialism.

Those are rather old articles. In Finland the leading far right party became second in last years election, and got into government with centre and right wing parties, the other winners. Many of its members are basically neo-nazis, but the party leadership wants to make the party appear somewhat civilized, so no hail hitlers in public view etc.

Anyway, after 7 months in goverment the party lost most of its popularity, its members have been in several embarrassing scandals, and social democrats are now the most popular party. I wish we could have new elections this year and this shameful period could be left behind as a historical curiocity, but alas, we have to wait for 3 years still.

 

[D4Danger]

The reason so many of these people are fit young men without families is because instead of providing proper passage to Europe Germany went to the media and announced everyone gets a free pass if they can make it. Who did they think would make the journey?

I agree that nobody should be separated and it wouldn't happen if this was done properly.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Why is that our problem?

If the man isn't of the nature to protect his wife and child that would strongly suggest that they aren't suitable for civilised society.

There's a precedent for protecting women and children, we did it in the war and it worked.

I would be completely happy with the refugee situation being limited to women and children only. These boats full of single men who've dumped their women and think they are coming to a getting laid party paid for by the tax payer can be sent straight back for me.

Islamic men think they are superior to women in every way so let them solve their problems.

Because you'll have hundreds of thousands of resentful single mothers who aren't educated or equipped to work while caring for multiple children who will grow up without fathers, basically you'll be dealing with a ton of unhappy impoverished people who will resent the country that took them in because they aren't living a good life.

Taking them in really isn't the best idea with or without the men.

 

[kitch9]

Are you now making stuff up? Additional police force could have prevented this.



What the hell are you talking about? There is no doubt that the perpetrators are guilty. But the police leadership also failed to do their job, and this has to be addressed. What are you doing? You are blaming Merkel for a police fuckup in Cologne. You want to punish refugees because there are a few bad people among them. How many refugees are there? One million? More? There are ~30 suspects currently, and you want to make the miserable life of all refugees even harder? This is frightening. People like you, with a lack of empathy.



Keep on dreaming. The right has no chance in the more progressive European countries.



Great idea, let's make a few phone calls to ISIS and tell them to stop fighting. That should "stop" the flow of refugees.

Yeah yeah, polices fault. Left mindset of forever throw money at a problem that you shouldn't have in the first place. Good one.

Nothing to do with the pathetic scum of the earth who were there because they were invited to take the piss by Merkel. In fact, thinking about it, they were the victims.

Got a bit cold on that boat it did, maybe give them a few euro in compensation... They might not stick their hands down womens pants then, you know gratitude and all that.

 

[quackamole]

This may just be irrational pessimism on my part but... why do i sometimes get the feeling that this current refugee crisis will keep us busy, constantly trying to come up with new ways to handle this situation for years if not decades, until... climate change will finally catch up and have WAY bigger numbers of people fleeing their homelands which will have become uninhabitable by then (like some experts suggest apparently) and come knocking at the door as well? The EU nations really need to get their shit together, it's not like we have forever to get these issues sorted.

This is the real problem. Clinate change is happening and will cause even more damage over the next 30, 50 years. What happens when a bunch of equatorial regions are rendered unhabitable and now you have billions displaced, all looking to get to the nearby still livable area, IE Europe?

 

[kitch9]

Because you'll have hundreds of thousands of resentful single mothers who aren't educated or equipped to work while caring for multiple children who will grow up without fathers, basically you'll be dealing with a ton of unhappy impoverished people who will resent the country that took them in because they aren't living a good life.

Taking them in really isn't the best idea with or without the men.

These are refugees not migrants... The distinction has very quickly been lost it appears. I wonder who wants that? There was little resentment with our women went the men and kids were taken away from them in ww2.


Maybe they should suck it up in the short to medium term until the issue is resolved. Maybe be thankful they are at least safe?


Camp Bastion in Iraq was huge, we have set massive camps up before that our own happily lived in for years, I'm sure we could do it again.

Even had KFC and Pizza hut.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

These are refugees not migrants... There was little resentment with our women went the men and kids were taken away from them in ww2.

Maybe they should suck it up in the short to medium term until the issue is resolved. Maybe be thankful they are at least safe?

The distinction has very quickly been lost it appears. I wonder who wants that?

Camp Bastion in Iraq was huge, we have set massive camps up before that are own happily lived in for years, I'm sure we could do it again.

Even had KFC and Pizza hut.

I'm not sure how it works in Europe but in Canada refugees don't live in camps, they are free to go anywhere.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Are you now making stuff up? Additional police force could have prevented this.

If we need police all the time when large groups of immigrants are around because otherwise situations like these occur then something is wrong.

I'm not sure how it works in Europe but in Canada refugees don't live in camps, they are free to go anywhere.

They are free to go around here also.

Because you'll have hundreds of thousands of resentful single mothers who aren't educated or equipped to work while caring for multiple children who will grow up without fathers, basically you'll be dealing with a ton of unhappy impoverished people who will resent the country that took them in because they aren't living a good life.

Taking them in really isn't the best idea with or without the men.

If they are resentful towards the country that is giving them housing, food and a safe space, there is something seriously wrong with them.