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[Sobriquet]

Half true

Typical negative post coming from Hilary camp it seems.

What O'Malley said was half true. What adam387 said is true.

 

[kcp12304]

A weak reason? You gotta be fucking joking me if you think challenging a sitting President, the first black President in a party that gets 90% of the black vote is a weak reason.

He did endorse him in the end. Via Fact Check

Sanders eventually endorsed Obama over Mitt Romney, telling CNN in May 2012, "I think Obama is by far the preferable candidate. Is Obama doing everything I want? Absolutely not, and among other things, he has not been as strong as he should standing up to Wall Street."

He was basically trying to nudge Obama to the left.

 

[UltimaPooh]

What O'Malley said was half true. What adam387 said is true.

Still half true... there was no context to it and context is everything.

 

[Your Entertainer]

A weak reason? You gotta be fucking joking me if you think challenging a sitting President, the first black President in a party that gets 90% of the black vote is a weak reason.

It's like you literally don't read what you quote before you respond. Yes it's a fucking weak reason. Try and have a half-way informed opinion before saying something.

EDIT: Well, how strong of a reason it is for you personally is up to you. But to leave it at "well called for Obama to be primaried" is disingenuous.

 

[demon]

A weak reason? You gotta be fucking joking me if you think challenging a sitting President, the first black President in a party that gets 90% of the black vote is a weak reason.

You haven't articulated a compelling reason why one should not support him because of this despite agreeing with him on matters of policy. It just reeks of petty party-fanboy bullshit.

 

[noshten]

The poll is heavily skewed towards a different demographic than what will show up in the primary season. Unless you are telling me his support with the younger demographic won't show up at the polls, Hillary has always had a pretty big margin among 50+ y/o's and this poll seems to have at the very least 60% of this particular demographic.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

It's like you literally don't read what you quote before you respond. Yes it's a fucking weak reason. Try and have a half-way informed opinion before saying something.

EDIT: Well, how strong of a reason it is for you personally is up to you. But to leave it at "well called for Obama to be primaried" is disingenuous.

By any objective measure, it was probably the dumbest thing Democrats could have possibly done in 2012. Spitting in the face of a loyal voting bloc. If nothing else, it should make you question his judgement.

The poll is heavily skewed towards a different demographic than what will show up in the primary season. Unless you are telling me his support with the younger demographic won't show up at the polls, Hillary has always had a pretty big margin among 50+ y/o's and this poll seems to have at the very least 60% of this particular demographic.

What about all the other polls that have come out in January confirming the margins? Sanders has just had two good polls from CBS and IBD/TIPP.

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-national-democratic-primary

 

[Kinvara]

Can't even read the full article because it's on WSJ.

It looks like they only polled 400 people.

Not everyone who is going to vote in the primaries is a registered Democrat anyway. My state has open primaries.

 

[QuiteWhittle]

I wasn't talking about Sanders, so why move goal posts?

Sorry about that, I didn't read the post you were quoting. I thought you were trying to blame Hillary for the actions of her partner, I get irrationally upset about that for some reason.

You have to look at that in context. He had low approval numbers and the Dems had just gotten cleaned out in the midterm elections. Several people had been calling for it in the party. Sanders stated that a primary challenge from a progressive Dem would be better for everyone - giving the voters more choices and potentially making Obama a stronger candidate. That's a different connotation than what you keep going on about.

For what it's worth, that also absolutely paled in comparison to what happened to Bill Clinton in 1994. Ultimately, it's a really weak reason to not want to support Sanders, and not one that isn't entirely well-informed either.

I honestly don't care about this at all, but how could anyone think that primary challenge would be a good idea at all? It distracts the president from doing their duties, wastes money, and makes the party look like it's in disarray. Has a primary challenge to sitting president ever led to a good outcome for the party in power?

 

[B-Dubs]

Can't even read the full article because it's on WSJ.

It looks like they only polled 400 people.

Not everyone who is going to vote in the primaries is a registered Democrat anyway. My state has open primaries.

Most states don't have open primaries, your state is an outlier in that.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Can't even read the full article because it's on WSJ.

It looks like they only polled 400 people.

Not everyone who is going to vote in the primaries is a registered Democrat anyway. My state has open primaries.

Your state might now, but how about all the others? Also, questioning sample sizes is kind of a sure fire way to show you're new to scientific polling and methodology.

 

[kirblar]

I keep seeing "too corporate."

I know she's friendlier to business than I would like. But there's one big thing that she'll still do to act on this issue.

The lynchpin of corporate money's influence in our system is Citizens United. Unless this case is overturned or a constitutional amendment is passed, there's not much that can be done to curb this influence. Anything that a President signs into law to address this issue will be challenged and knocked-down by the current Supreme Court majority under this precedent.

Given this, she's stated that she'll make the overturning of this case a litmus test for all SCOTUS nominees. That's not something small to sneer at. I won't bash anyone for backing Bernie, but if she is the nominee, anyone (in a swing state) refusing a vote for her on the grounds of being "too corporate" isn't all that serious about this oft-stated concern.

Bernie himself is keenly aware of this, which is why if and when he drops-out, he's going to endorse her. He knows how this works.

This election is actually (hilarious) proof that Citizens United may not be as scary as advertised.

All that money thrown to all those candidates, and none are beating Trump.

 

[TyrantII]

Would Hillary be doing as well if she was a man? I feel like the "first female president" prospect is carrying her to a large degree.

At the same time though, I guess there are a lot of voters that refuse to vote for her just for that reason.

It actually had a negative effect, along with her name.

A look at her accomplishments and its no wonder she isn't doing better.

 

[B-Dubs]

This election is actually (hilarious) proof that Citizens United may not be as scary as advertised.

All that money thrown to all those candidates, and none are beating Trump.

That's because the people throwing that money around are morons. The real danger of citizen's united is at the local and state level. A couple million dollars here and there is potentially enough to control a statehouse. We're lucky they haven't realized this yet.

 

[giga]

Can't even read the full article because it's on WSJ.

It looks like they only polled 400 people.

Not everyone who is going to vote in the primaries is a registered Democrat anyway. My state has open primaries.

Only? Look at the sample sizes of the other polls.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...ratic_presidential_nomination-3824.html#polls

 

[loki 16]

As a Latino I will support Bernie 100% Half a year ego my family and friends had no Idea who Bernie was. Now they do. I feel that if Bernie keeps going more minorities are going to get to know his policy's and what he want to do for the country.

 

[Dali]

Would Hillary be doing as well if she was a man? I feel like the "first female president" prospect is carrying her to a large degree.

At the same time though, I guess there are a lot of voters that refuse to vote for her just for that reason.

Bernie sounds like cousin Leo from Seinfeld. That's a hard handicap to overcome.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

That's because the people throwing that money around are morons. The real danger of citizen's united is at the local and state level. A couple million dollars here and there is potentially enough to control a statehouse. We're lucky they haven't realized this yet.

Trump is a poor example anyways. His unique candidacy offers him insane amounts of free advertising.

 

[Days like these...]

as a mexican I support Bernie and handful of other hispanics/latinos.

As Mexican I also support Bernie. I know many latinos who support Bernie but please white people keep telling me you KNOW better than me. I'm used to it.

 

[B-Dubs]

Bernie sounds like cousin Leo from Seinfeld. That's a hard handicap to overcome.

I was thinking more an angry Larry David trying to return soup at a deli.

Trump is a poor example anyways. His unique candidacy offers him insane amounts of free advertising.

This is also true. Trump is running a different campaign than they're all used to.

 

[MHWilliams]

Honestly, I still contend that many of Bernie's supporters are his worst enemy. This "burn the house down, since I may not get what I want" mentality is frightening. For many minorities, the sentiment of "I won't vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination" or "I hope Trump wins instead" amounts to a grand "screw you", given some of the statements and policies of the Republican candidates, including Trump.

Would it be great for Bernie to take the presidency? Sure. Am I particularly excited about Hillary as president? Nah. But I acknowledge that she's probably the best I got.

Flashback to 2008. If Obama hadn't won the nomination - which is what I wanted - I would've still voted for Hillary, because voting is a responsibility I take seriously and Romney post-primary wasn't going to fly for me. (Pre-Primary Romney was actually pretty good.)

I wouldn't have torched the entire thing over my ideal being lost. That's a child's understanding of a resolution. Hell, I hate O'Malley because he royally fucked Baltimore during his time here, but he's still better than Trump's policies. If somehow he rose to the top, I'd grit my teeth and vote for him.

Because after "who will fix the stuff I personally care about?", my next thought is "who do I think will benefit the most people?" Is that probably Bernie, sure. But if Bernie doesn't clench it, then Hillary is the next answer to that second question.

 

[UltimaPooh]

I was thinking more an angry Larry David trying to return soup at a deli.

Which I find refreshing relatable.

Honestly, I still contend that many of Bernie's supporters are his worst enemy. This "burn the house down, since I may not get what I want" mentality is frightening. For many minorities, the sentiment of "I won't vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination" or "I hope Trump wins instead" amounts to a grand "screw you", given some of the statements and policies of the Republican candidates, including Trump.

Would it be great for Bernie to take the presidency? Sure. Am I particularly excited about Hillary as president? Nah. But I acknowledge that she's probably the best I got.

Flashback to 2008. If Obama hadn't won the nomination - which is what I wanted - I would've still voted for Hillary, because voting is a responsibility I take seriously and Romney post-primary wasn't going to fly for me. (Pre-Primary Romney was actually pretty good.)

I wouldn't have torched the entire thing over my ideal being lost. That's a child's understanding of a resolution. Hell, I hate O'Malley because he royally fucked Baltimore during his time here, but he's still better than Trump's policies. If somehow he rose to the top, I'd grit my teeth and vote for him.

Because after "who will fix the stuff I personally care about?", my next thought is "who do I think will benefit the most people?" Is that probably Bernie, sure. But if Bernie doesn't clench it, then Hillary is the next answer to that second question.

That's what happens when it's a grass roots kind of base... you have really passionate people that get a little butt hurt. Even then I think this is an over exaggeration of that premise and that on the whole Bernie supports will most likely fall in line if Hilary gets the nom.

I know I would be let down and probably stop donating money to the cause, but I would vote for in the end if I had to.

 

[Slayven]

As Mexican I also support Bernie. I know many latinos who support Bernie but please white people keep telling me you KNOW better than me. I'm used to it.

Last 18 months has not been a good look for "allies"

 

[ErasureAcer]

I was at an organizing rally in St. Paul, MN the other day for Bernie. Around 200 people there. One of the organizers asked how many people had never caucused before....half the room raised their hands. Bernie is bringing out many first time primary/caucus voters. The room as a whole was probably average age 40-45 years old. Some older, 60-70...some younger, college...but most people there were 30-50 years of age. Maybe 60/40 guys to women. Some people of color as well, Hispanic, Asian, Black but predominantly white.

So I door knocked in freezing temperatures yesterday. The office is where some SEIU guys were at doing their own thing. I was like are you guys here for Bernie too? And they weren't as they were unaware of the office but 2 out of the 3 said they support Bernie rather than Hillary who the SEIU endorsed...one of which was a person of color. The third guy I didn't get who he was for but the other 2 were like yeah, Bernie.

The people support Bernie. As I think some others have said...this poll from what I've read is only people have participated in nominations before(correct me if I'm wrong)...I'd take it with a grain of salt. Bernie is bringing many new voters from all political spectrums to the polls.

 

[kitschykitty]

Again, can anyone explain the huge difference with focus groups that overwhelmingly gave the victory to Sanders? The people (not the media guys that are likely millionaires and likely have a different set of priorities than the average american) that actually watched the debate had a different opinion from the people that answered to the polls and just went by what they read on the paper the day after. This is corroborated by a poll that differentiated between people that said they watched the entire debate versus parts of it or none at all.

Seems to me that this shows that having the debates on days where no one will watch them is surely an advantage for Clinton.

Focus groups aren't statistically significant and have a lot of problems with biases and social pressure, they should not be considered a indicator of the actual outcome.

I also tried to find evidence for your other point about the polls but the only data I found was a google consumer survey administered online that said that he won, it wouldn't be fair to completely ignore the poll but maybe consider whether a poll administered online is truly representative of the overall population.

 

[Fitts]

What a shame. After looking at my first paycheck of the year, I'm for whoever has an alternative to the ironically named Affordable Care Act.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

This election is actually (hilarious) proof that Citizens United may not be as scary as advertised.

All that money thrown to all those candidates, and none are beating Trump.

Trump is special because his personality grants him free interviews with the media, while other candidates are bleeding money.

 

[rtcn63]

I was thinking more an angry Larry David trying to return soup at a deli.

You're not the one only one https://vid.me/2HyH

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Bernie sounds like cousin Leo from Seinfeld. That's a hard handicap to overcome.

I was ready to laugh, but you called him cousin..it's his uncle!

 

[harSon]

Edit: Wrong thread

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

The ACA barely passed Congress, with many democrats even voting against it. It's foolish to even think single payer could have passed. Obama did what he could.

I agree. The democratic party sold Obama out. I love the way John Oliver phrased it in this segment on Income inequality; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfgSEwjAeno

The democrats have voted for cut backs on food stamps and a host other very undemocratic incentives.
I've always believed in Obamas sincerity, but there is nothing the man can do if he has to fight both the republicans and people within his own ranks.
The Drone Program, his treatment of the whistleblowers(Snoweden and Manning), the lack of doing enough for the Space exploration program, the No Child Left Behind disaster, not having done enough on guns, obesity, guantanamo bay.
How much is Obamas fault, and how much is the fault of closet republicans hiding within the democratic party?

 

[noshten]

What about all the other polls that have come out in January confirming the margins? Sanders has just had two good polls from CBS and IBD/TIPP.

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-national-democratic-primary

I just have a problem in polls where 50+ demographic is over represented, do you truly expect over 60% of people taking a part of the primary to be 50+?

 

[HK-47]

I keep seeing "too corporate."

I know she's friendlier to business than I would like. But there's one big thing that she'll still do to act on this issue.

The lynchpin of corporate money's influence in our system is Citizens United. Unless this case is overturned or a constitutional amendment is passed, there's not much that can be done to curb this influence. Anything that a President signs into law to address this issue will be challenged and knocked-down by the current Supreme Court majority under this precedent.

Given this, she's stated that she'll make the overturning of this case a litmus test for all SCOTUS nominees. That's not something small to sneer at. I won't bash anyone for backing Bernie, but if she is the nominee, anyone (in a swing state) refusing a vote for her on the grounds of being "too corporate" isn't all that serious about this oft-stated concern.

Bernie himself is keenly aware of this, which is why if and when he drops-out, he's going to endorse her. He knows how this works.

Always with the smart posts, eh?

 

[ErasureAcer]

Honestly, I still contend that many of Bernie's supporters are his worst enemy. This "burn the house down, since I may not get what I want" mentality is frightening. For many minorities, the sentiment of "I won't vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination" or "I hope Trump wins instead" amounts to a grand "screw you", given some of the statements and policies of the Republican candidates, including Trump.

Ernh.

I want nothing to do with Hillary. I will not be voting for her. Telling you this out front can influence you to vote for the more electable person, Bernie. And give you warning that you as a supporter of Clinton will have a harder time getting her elected. Are you willing to put in the work for Hillary? Probably not. She will most likely lose the General should she get there if she's not up against Trump.

Supreme Court? Great, we've had a conservative Supreme Court for the past 40 years(if not longer) Let's ride it out another 40. Not my fault. Either we are serious about the problems facing this country today(Bernie)...or we are not(everyone else). I vote in all elections(even the local stuff when it's the only crap on the ballot). I have no problem leaving President blank or voting 3rd party. Given the choice between two conservatives...I choose neither.

 

[ErasureAcer]

What a shame. After looking at my first paycheck of the year, I'm for whoever has an alternative to the ironically named Affordable Care Act.

Bernie Sanders.

 

[RPGCrazied]

Much as I'd like Bernie to win, she is going to. Which I'm fine with. Everyone else on the other side are insane and shouldn't have that kind of power.

 

[Enzom21]

Yeah, Bernie supporters who say that don't help the perception that Bernie supporters don't care about black people.

They made that pretty clear when they made shit like this:

Some of his white "liberal" supporters showed their true colors when those uppity Negroes "attacked" their savior.
I hope Sanders wins but I hate some of these "liberal" supporters. His stans are the worst.

 

[Fitts]

Bernie Sanders.

I'm aware. Not entirely sold on either candidate, but I'm leaning towards Bernie at this point.

 

[User 463088]

Ernh.

I want nothing to do with Hillary. I will not be voting for her. Telling you this out front can influence you to vote for the more electable person, Bernie. And give you warning that you as a supporter of Clinton will have a harder time getting her elected. Are you willing to put in the work for Hillary? Probably not. She will most likely lose the General should she get there if she's not up against Trump.

Supreme Court? Great, we've had a conservative Supreme Court for the past 40 years(if not longer) Let's ride it out another 40. Not my fault. Either we are serious about the problems facing this country today(Bernie)...or we are not(everyone else). I vote in all elections(even the local stuff when it's the only crap on the ballot). I have no problem leaving President blank or voting 3rd party. Given the choice between two conservatives...I choose neither.

Naw, mate. You're playing a game of hostage: "Vote for who I want to win or else." That's about teh worst possible way you could even think of trying to get someone to change their support. You're simply reinforcing what a lot of us believe about Bernie's "movement" and goals. It's not about policy. It's not about making America great again. It's about ideological purity. Everything can go to hell in a hand basket. All of the progress LGBT people have fought for, tooth and nail can go fuck itself unless we bow down to Bernie Sanders.

Naw, man. Naw.

 

[ErasureAcer]

I'm aware. Not entirely sold on either candidate, but I'm leaning towards Bernie at this point.

Great. You'll have more info soon(next two weeks) when he comes out with his healthcare plan. Hope that converts you to a full-fledged Berner.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Naw, mate. You're playing a game of hostage: "Vote for who I want to win or else." That's about teh worst possible way you could even think of trying to get someone to change their support. You're simply reinforcing what a lot of us believe about Bernie's "movement" and goals. It's not about policy. It's not about making America great again. It's about ideological purity. Everything can go to hell in a hand basket. All of the progress LGBT people have fought for, tooth and nail can go fuck itself unless we bow down to Bernie Sanders.

Naw, man. Naw.

That's honestly your fault for not divorcing the followers from the candidate.

Not that I agree with his/her view of electing Bernie.

 

[Big Baybee]

Yeah, incarcerating millions of minorities: "oops..my bad" - making inroads with the black community much like Thomas Jefferson did.

So we ignoring Bernie's vote or what?

 

[ErasureAcer]

That lady getting up all in Bernie's face in Seattle is a bit ridiculous. Funny how you leave out that she and her buddy who took over that Social Security rally(wasn't even Bernie's) managed to insult every white progressive in the city of Seattle...calling them specifically out. She probably did more harm than good to whatever nonsense she was screaming about....rule number 1 is don't insult your audience. Bernie took the high road anyways and let her speak.

Here's their statement.

Black Lives Matter Seattle issued a press release explaining why they disrupted the Sanders event, “This city is filled with white progressives, which is why Bernie Sanders’ camp was obviously expecting a friendly and consenting audience for today’s campaign visit. The problem with Sanders’, and with white Seattle progressives, in general, is that they are utterly and totally useless (when not outright harmful) in terms of the fight for Black lives. While we are drowning in their liberal rhetoric, we have yet to see them support Black grassroots movements or take on any measure of risk and responsibility for ending the tyranny of white supremacy in our country and in our city. This willful passivity while claiming solidarity with the ‪#‎BlackLivesMatter‬ movement in an effort to be relevant is over. White progressive Seattle and Bernie Sanders cannot call themselves liberals while they participate in the racist system that claims Black lives.”

Participating in the system to try and improve it is considered conservatism according to them. They quite frankly sound like anarchists from that quote. Their whole solution is don't participate in the system and then we'll like you while the underlying cause of things they're against(institutional racism) will get worse if that were to happen. Those 2 black lives protesters in Seattle are quite simply out of their minds. Bernie supporters, myself included, have a right to call them out on their bullshit.

 

[User 463088]

That's honestly your fault for not divorcing the followers from the candidate.

Not that I agree with his/her view of electing Bernie.

I'm well aware of the difference between Bernie and Bernie's more...vocal supporters. The problem is, my perception of both is relatively easy to justify. I've been involved in politics since I was 9. I've made more phone calls for candidates who I knew were going to lose than I can count. I've knocked on doors. I've ridden with people to the polls. I know this shit plays out.

The audacity that a person would attempt to win supporters by holding us hostage to their whims is politically ridiculous. That is not how you win supporters. A campaign's advocates are part of the campaign. They help formulate the perception of the candidate. It is that simple. One of the first things they drilled into our heads when we knocked on doors for Obama was "You are the campaign." Doesn't matter if you're a volunteer. Whatever you do reflects on the campaign.

I would argue the reason anyone posts about a candidate is because they want to win support for their preferred horse. So far, some (some not all) Bernie supporters have taken to throwing everyone under the bus who isn't feeling the Bern. Sherrod Brown was Bernie's best friend, a liberal stalwart in the Senate. A potential running mate. Now? He endorsed Hillary, he's thrown under the bus. Planned Parenthood is now sexist because it endorsed Hillary. The only good unions are the ones that endorsed Bernie. The DNC is bad because it didn't do whatever it is that it was supposed to do to cater to Bernie's whims.

And now we've reached the "Do what I want or I'll hold my breath until I get my way" level of political discourse. If these weren't real people's lives in the balance it would be funny. The idea that 40 years of the Supreme Court, coupled with a GOP House, Senate and Presidency wouldn't be the end of any liberal or progressive movement is just absolutely so disconnected from reality that I'm legitimately surprised it was even said non-ironically.

As someone who, without the Supreme Court, would still be a 2nd class citizen, unable to get health insurance and unable to reclaim my life? Naw. I don't have to disconnect anything.

 

[RedSparc]

So we ignoring Bernie's vote or what?

It's not Sanders legacy that continues to fuck minorities.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

They made that pretty clear when they made shit like this:

Some of his white "liberal" supporters showed their true colors when those uppity Negroes "attacked" their savior.
I hope Sanders wins but I hate some of these "liberal" supporters. His stans are the worst.

Yo..what the fuck?

 

[Loakum]

Bernie is actually speaking on what progressives stand for. Hillary is vague. However Hillary is the one expected to win, so here we are.

 

[Kangi]

Naw, mate. You're playing a game of hostage: "Vote for who I want to win or else." That's about teh worst possible way you could even think of trying to get someone to change their support. You're simply reinforcing what a lot of us believe about Bernie's "movement" and goals. It's not about policy. It's not about making America great again. It's about ideological purity. Everything can go to hell in a hand basket. All of the progress LGBT people have fought for, tooth and nail can go fuck itself unless we bow down to Bernie Sanders.

Naw, man. Naw.

And what's fantastic is, alongside that, being told by people how I as a gay person should vote for Bernie, based on their very limited understanding of LGBT rights. And then if Bernie doesn't win the primary, they'll work to help undo the past several years of LGBT rights. If that's not being held hostage, I don't know what is.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

Yo..what the fuck?

It becomes increasingly clear that our "allies" have abandoned us.

I actually like Bernie's platform, but I will not allow this country to go backwards in the hopes of people coming to my side after seeing how dark things can get. I can't afford the darkness. Policies will be put in place that will hurt me and the people I care about far more than you not getting your political figure to the top. I'd rather take a step forward, than lose everything. If Bernie wins, great. It won't be thanks to the petulant children trumpeting their support of him. It'll be because of the issues and him being able to overcome the damage his supporters have done.

 

[Armaros]

And what's fantastic is, alongside that, being told by people how I as a gay person should vote for Bernie, based on their very limited understanding of LGBT rights. And then if Bernie doesn't win the primary, they'll work to help undo the past several years of LGBT rights. If that's not being held hostage, I don't know what is.

We barely won a major LGBT victory in the courts as it is and we still have a long way to go, and we have posters here going 'if Bernie doesn't win, I don't care what happens, because the consequences don't directly affect me"