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[excelsiorlef]

I've re-read your OP twice now, in addition to watching the video, and I still can't understand what it is he said that you disagree with or find "incredible"?

We're taking on not only Wall Street and the economic establishment, we're taking on the political establishment. So, I have friends and supporters in the Human Rights Fund [sic], in Planned Parenthood. But you know what, Hillary Clinton has been around there for a very, very long time, and some of these groups are in fact part of the establishment. I will challenge anybody with regard to my record on LGBT issues. I was one of the few, relatively few, to oppose and vote against DOMA [Defense of Marriage Act], et cetera. In terms of women's rights, I believe we have a 100 percent lifetime pro-choice record.

http://www.vox.com/2016/1/20/108014...arenthood-human-rights-campaign-establishment


There was no reason to bring up Wallstreet. You can't sat he's taking on the establishment, call Planned Parenthood the establishment and then get made when folks respond to that negatively.

It's incredible that a man running for president would answer that question the way he did. He could have literally said anything other than say "We're taking on not only Wall Street and the economic establishment, we're taking on the political establishment" and then clarify that he considers PP to be in that category.

PP is abortion right now. 100% there is basically no one else.

This is an issue because it was an easily avoidable gaffe and frankly Hillary has gone easy on him. If he can't handle a simple question like Maddow's what is he gonna do in the GE when the GOP is out for blood.

 

[K.Sabot]

The way this issue is being used, based on the actual video of it, is just like some of the tactics the right uses.

And thus

Turns out that Democrats really aren't that different from Republicans.

makes more sense now in that context lol.

 

[Suikoguy]

and a portion seem to think it doesn't matter, that they can still use it to cause real damage.

I'll agree to that, several posters have taken this to mean something it's not. When in actuality it shows Sanders trying too hard to be anti-establishment, when he is in fact establishment himself. And by doing so, sticking his foot in his mouth.

He is not attacking what planned parenthood as an organization does.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

And what is he saying in your pov.

He's saying that he'd like to have the support of every progressive organization in America. However, he knows that the economic and political establishment is largely backing Hilary. She's more established. But he can still represent LGBT and Women's interests with grassroots backing.

Do you think I misread him?

 

[AlphaDump]

Wanting to defund PP doesn't mean a flip on pro choice if means he thinks everything PP does should be provided by a government institution/single payer healthcare.

That said, I think he isn't clear enough, or maybe even delusional, on some of his policies. I largely agree with what he wants to do, but he frames everything as happening immediately. The problem is you can't just radically change everything so quickly. I believe we should have a single payer system; get rid of ACA, Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, all that and have one system that includes everyone. But you can't just do that overnight. The additional problem is, insurance isn't the only problem with our healthcare and the entire system needs a huge overhaul.

I know this thread isn't about insurance but I think it's an example of how Sanders will put his viewpoint out there, probably assuming people would understand, that to get to his goals there are massive changes that need to be made to a lot of institutions. Then we get people responding saying "That's impossible because of x, y, and z." But I think that's exactly Sanders point. The x, y, and z is part of the problem and needs to be changed as well. He needs to do a much better job of communicating exactly what he wants to do - and move into a structured plan for how to change things.

Edit: to be clear, I'm a Bernie supporter until (if) he's out of the race.

Regardless of my beliefs, this is a great post.

 

[Oriel]

I switch off whenever I hear someone bang on about being "anti-establishment" or going up against it. Like, what the fuck is the establishment?! It's just another bullshit term alongside "the beltway" and "middle America" (suggesting that those residing in the DC and NYC areas are somehow "real Americans").

 

[excelsiorlef]

He's saying that he'd like to have the support of every progressive organization in America. However, he knows that the economic and political establishment is largely backing Hilary. She's more established. But he can still represent LGBT and Women's interests with grassroots backing.

Great but he called them part of the establishment, which he has made it clear he wants to tear down.

There was no reason to compare them indirectly to Wallstreet. Remember he's trying to get the votes of people like PP. Writing them off as the establishment like Wallstreet is not ok.

The reality is PP is the only realy option women have for health and abortion services. He can't talk down to the organization and then claim that women should vote for him because if his record.

This outlines PPs stance on why they went with Hillary
https://www.plannedparenthoodaction...ton-and-bernie-sanders-compare-womens-health/

 

[NastyBook]

2016:Obama to continue presidency until candidates get their shit together.

Onion article that I wish would come true.

 

[Ophelion]

Onion article that I wish would come true.

But that's how the Obama empire begins...

 

[lednerg]

There was no reason to bring up Wallstreet. You can't sat he's taking on the establishment, call Planned Parenthood the establishment and then get made when folks respond to that negatively.

It's incredible that a man running for president would answer that question the way he did. He could have literally said anything other than say "We're taking on not only Wall Street and the economic establishment, we're taking on the political establishment" and then clarify that he considers PP to be in that category.

He answered a direct question about Hillary getting endorsements from Planned Parenthood and other groups by basically saying "welp, that's politics."

 

[IamDodongo]

Onion article that I wish would come true.

Honestly, I would be down for it.

 

[Ziffles]

There was no reason to bring up Wallstreet. You can't sat he's taking on the establishment, call Planned Parenthood the establishment and then get made when folks respond to that negatively.

It's incredible that a man running for president would answer that question the way he did. He could have literally said anything other than say "We're taking on not only Wall Street and the economic establishment, we're taking on the political establishment" and then clarify that he considers PP to be in that category.

...?
That's it? He was just doing his Wall Street stump. Do you think there was some ulterior motive hidden in there or something?

This was a mountain out of a molehill if I've ever seen one.

 

[the_lizard]

It's not like he's arguing to defund Planned Parenthood, nor is he opposing LGBT rights. HRC is a 501c(4). Planned Parenthood has a dedicated 501c(4) called the Action Fund. These are PACs. A huge percentage of their funding goes directly to buying off candidates. Bernie opposes PACs, whether their cause is just or not. There's nothing wrong with this stance. It's 100% consistent with everything he stands for. He just did a really poor job explaining his stance, and people are going to totally misinterpret it. If we're going to talk about reforming our political system, we can't pick and choose and make exceptions for liberal causes.

 

[excelsiorlef]

When you see their records side by side, there’s no question why the Planned Parenthood Action Fund endorsed Hillary Clinton for president. She has simply demonstrated the strongest record, clearest leadership, and most focused commitment to women’s health of any presidential candidate.

For anyone who supports Senator Sanders, know we are grateful for his strong record on reproductive rights. This endorsement doesn’t mean we’ll do anything negative about Sanders’ campaign. Instead it means that for the first time in history, we have the chance to help elect someone who’s been fighting to expand reproductive health and rights for decades to the White House, just when we need that kind of champion the most.

- See more at: https://www.plannedparenthoodaction...s-compare-womens-health/#sthash.Cdf4bqxX.dpuf

They went out of their way to compliment him and made it clear that they'd back him in the GE if he won and he calls them part of the establishment that he's up against and that he doesn't need them. Lovely.


Their point was Hillary actually introduces the legislation, she's proactive, he's supportive. That's a huge difference especially at the Presidential level where you have to be active not just supportive.

There were a million ways to answer that question without calling PP part of the establishment.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

He just did a really poor job explaining his stance, and people are going to totally misinterpret it.

And that is on him.

This is a contest to see who should run the country. We've seen peeps decimated because they looked silly wearing a hat, or taking a nuanced stance on the death penalty. There's no margin for misinterpretation.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I actually watched the whole Rachel episode he was on before this became a story.

What Bernie said is true. Hillary has huge political power, and she has the support of many groups, many just by nature of her contacts, from the financial industry, the Democratic political establishment in Washington. the media and even many of the unions and groups who are supposed to be fighting for the middle class and working people.

I think only Elizabeth Warren in the congress and a few others have abstained from endorsing Hillary which i think is a shame.

People will make sound bites and throw his words out of context, which is what this story does by default, so its really a failure of the media.

 

[wildfire]

At this point I can't even credit you with being dishonest excelsiorlef because I've seen enough of your posts now to know you really don't know how to understand people and create more issues than actually exists. Reflect for a minute before hitting that submit button.

:|

 

[excelsiorlef]

Also his response completely ignores why PP endorsed Hillary and not him.

They don't support her because she's part if the machine but because she actively created legislation in support of their causes and Bernie while supporting them never created any.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I actually watched the whole Rachel episode he talked about before this became a story.

What Bernie said is true. Hillary has huge political power, and she has the support of many groups, many just by nature of her contacts, from the financial industry, the Democratic political establishment in Washington. the media and even many of the unions and groups who are supposed to be fighting for the middle class.

I think only Elizabeth Warren in the congress and a few others have abstained from endorsing Hillary which i think is a shame.

People will make sound bites and throw his words out of context, which is what this story does by default, so its really a failure of the media.

Our media is profit based.

Accuracy is an afterthought when there is money to be had. Bernies surge last summer was money. Trump is money. Hillary subsequent rise after the Benghazi hearings? Money.

As long as they are "close enough" to accurate, little is said about it.

 

[lednerg]

Also his response completely ignores why PP endorsed Hillary and not him.

They don't support her because she's part if the machine but because she actively created legislation in support of their causes and Bernie while supporting them never created any.

'Well you see, Rachel, I never created any legislation to support their cause, unlike Hillary. So of course they would choose to endorse her."

Is that what you're expecting? (Also, I don't know if that is true, nor do I care)

 

[Inuhanyou]

Also his response completely ignores why PP endorsed Hillary and not him.

They don't support her because she's part if the machine but because she actively created legislation in support of their causes and Bernie while supporting them never created any.

Do you not know how much legislation he has created, co chaired, and co authored in the senate?

You bias is getting in the way of your thinking correctly.

 

[B-Dubs]

Do you not know how much legislation he has created, co chaired, and co authored in the senate?

You bias is getting in the way of your thinking correctly.

How much of it has actually become law?

 

[excelsiorlef]

'Well you see, Rachel, I never created any legislation to support their cause, unlike Hillary. So of course they would choose to endorse her."

Is that what you're expecting? (Also, I don't know if that is true, nor do I care)

I laid out what he should have said hours ago

"While I'm disappointed with their endorsement of Hillary, they play a crucial role in women and LGBT rights in America and I look forward to working with them should I (or when I) get the Democratic nomination."

 

[IamDodongo]

The fallout of HRC's Clinton endorsement:

This is pretty shameful. Brigading progress sites won't win you voters in a democratic primary

 

[Fenderputty]

'Well you see, Rachel, I never created any legislation to support their cause, unlike Hillary. So of course they would choose to endorse her."

Is that what you're expecting? (Also, I don't know if that is true, nor do I care)

How about, "While I don't agree with the reasons they didn't support me, I don't want to diminish the work PP has done that everyone on the left appreciates"

Not ..

"See look. They didn't endorse me because they're apart of the establishment I'm attacking"

 

[Inuhanyou]

Our media is profit based.

Accuracy is an afterthought when there is money to be had. Bernies surge last summer was money. Trump is money. Hillary subsequent rise after the Benghazi hearings? Money.

As long as they are "close enough" to accurate, little is said about it.

Yeah? I didn't notice that :l

The fact of the matter is this is a non story, except to those who are so desperate they are blowing statements out of proportion.

"SEE!? HE SAYS HE'S FIGHTING AGAINST "ESTABLISHMENT" IN THE POLITICAL WHITE HOUSE BATTLE, HE"S AGAINST LIBERALS AND PLANNED PARENTHOOD!"

Please, what a joke.

 

[Fenderputty]

"desperate"

Desperate for what? Nobody who thinks Bernie made a stupid comment is desperate for anything.

 

[lednerg]

How about, "While I don't agree with the reasons they didn't support me, I don't want to diminish the work PP has done that everyone on the left appreciates"

Not ..

"See look. They didn't endorse me because they're apart of the establishment I'm attacking"

"See look. They didn't endorse me because they're apart of the establishment I'm attacking" - said nobody.

This has been so blown out of proportion, it's downright silly. The desperation is palpable.

 

[inner-G]

Wouldn't PP be rendered useless if we had universal health care?

 

[AlphaDump]

"See look. They didn't endorse me because they're apart of the establishment I'm attacking" - said nobody.

This has been so blown out of proportion, it's downright silly. The desperation is palpable.

well...

I mean it was a poor choice of words, if anything.

 

[stufte]

Wouldn't PP be rendered useless if we had universal health care?

Not necessarily, they could still provide services in universal healthcare. A lot of times PP is the closest place for women to receive care.

 

[eBay Huckster]

And that is on him.

This is a contest to see who should run the country. We've seen peeps decimated because they looked silly wearing a hat, or taking a nuanced stance on the death penalty. There's no margin for misinterpretation.

shit, we've seen people decimated because they yelled into the mic at a campaign rally, this isn't even in the same ballpark

 

[Fenderputty]

"See look. They didn't endorse me because they're apart of the establishment I'm attacking" - said nobody.

This has been so blown out of proportion, it's downright silly. The desperation is palpable.

Again with another desperation comment when there's absolutely zero desperation to be found.

 

[the_lizard]

And that is on him.

This is a contest to see who should run the country. We've seen peeps decimated because they looked silly wearing a hat, or taking a nuanced stance on the death penalty. There's no margin for misinterpretation.

Oh no doubt about it. I'm not saying he didn't totally screw up. As a big Bernie supporter in totally bummed out, because I know that the media is going to tear him to shreds and totally misrepresent what he's trying to say. I know that ya gotta be pragmatic. I'm just trying to distill his actual view here.

 

[Nitsuj23]

Not necessarily, they could still provide services in universal healthcare. A lot of times PP is the closest place for women to receive care.

Well yeah, with our current system. Why not think of where women would go under Bernie's system. All services PP provides would be available elsewhere.

 

[Mael]

Again with another desperation comment when there's absolutely zero desperation to be found.

I'm half willing to want him to win the nom just to see Trump show how you can go at him and actually attack a campaign.
Heck the guy sank the Bush campaign nearly singlehandedly.

Oh no doubt about it. I'm not saying he didn't totally screw up. As a big Bernie supporter in totally bummed out, because I know that the media is going to tear him to shreds and totally misrepresent what he's trying to say. I know that ya gotta be pragmatic. I'm just trying to distill his actual view here.

Welcome to a political campaign, I hope you enjoy your stay.
It's been like that for more than a century.
I could literally find you example that's 18xx where a candidate is tanked by a misinterpreted quote.
If you don't know how the game is played at this point just don't show up at all.

 

[Ogrekiller]

Well yeah, with our current system. Why not think of where women would go under Bernie's system. All services PP provides would be available elsewhere.

Because Bernie's system is not in place and he has no plan on how to get it into place?

 

[diamount]

Dang Bernie you almost convinced everyone you maybe had a shot for a minute there

He never did have any shot. He's another Ron Paul, where his fandom mostly comes from the internet.

 

[lednerg]

Again with another desperation comment when there's absolutely zero desperation to be found.

People are actively trying to float a narrative that Bernie is against Planned Parenthood when they know it isn't true. That's desperation.

 

[Inuhanyou]

well...

I mean it was a poor choice of words, if anything.

Instead of being outraged at soundbites, look at the entire statement in context

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SwIcVpyP5A

Go to 7:50

He was asked, and he answered about many of the powerful groups that Rachel asked if he thought should be backing him based on his record, and he said exactly what he should have said.

Hillary Clinton has a lot of power and influence behind her, and is what made her a shoe in for 07 and now. And Bernie is the one having to go against that to win the Presidency.

"desperate"

Desperate for what? Nobody who thinks Bernie made a stupid comment is desperate for anything.

The thing is, it wasn't a stupid statement, it was a perfectly reasonable statement that people are trying to blow into a stupid or dumb statement, when it actually makes perfect sense.

You also need to watch the interview in context.

 

[Mael]

People are actively trying to float a narrative that Bernie is against Planned Parenthood when they know it isn't true. That's desperation.

It isn't desperation, it's a narrative that is very easily supported by quotes and that Sanders haven't managed to squash like any good candidate would have done weeks ago.

Which is easier to remember?
- Sanders wants PP to shut down
- Sanders explains that PP is part of the establishment that he wants to shut down but really PP is doing good work.

Why should anyone gives a shit enough to watch an interview to get the proper context when most candidates in any election don't get that kind of luxury to begin with.

 

[Fenderputty]

People are actively trying to float a narrative that Bernie is against Planned Parenthood when they know it isn't true. That's desperation.

Nobody is doing that.

 

[Kangi]

The fallout of HRC's Clinton endorsement:


This is pretty shameful. Brigading progress sites won't win you voters in a democratic primary

Internet liberals pour way too much effort into smearing other liberals and not nearly enough into fighting conservatives.

Then they don't vote in midterms, let Congress get gridlocked, and post "DAE all politicians are the same? XD XD XD"

 

[lednerg]

^^ yup

Nobody is doing that.

Oh really, Mr Sanders? Planned Parenthood is part of the establishment that you're taking on? What do you mean by that?!?!

 

[NeoXChaos]

Internet liberals pour way too much effort into smearing other liberals and not nearly enough into fighting conservatives.

Then they don't vote in midterms, let Congress get gridlocked, and post "DAE all politicians are the same? XD XD XD"

bingo.

 

[AlphaDump]

Yeah? I didn't notice that :l

The fact of the matter is this is a non story, except to those who are so desperate they are blowing statements out of proportion.

"SEE!? HE SAYS HE'S FIGHTING AGAINST "ESTABLISHMENT" IN THE POLITICAL WHITE HOUSE BATTLE, HE"S AGAINST LIBERALS AND PLANNED PARENTHOOD!"

Please, what a joke.

I am not outraged. I am using the quote in the OP to highlight he is against the establishment. He explicitly said so.

 

[Inuhanyou]

bingo.

I think people like yourselves really underestimate the actual corrupting influence of money in politics to try and make an argument that everything is a zero sum game, and if only we voted for the establishment candidates hard enough, we'd be perfectly fine.

 

[loki 16]

Nobody is doing that.

Have you been reading this thread?

 

[akileese]

http://www.vox.com/2016/1/20/108014...arenthood-human-rights-campaign-establishment


There was no reason to bring up Wallstreet. You can't sat he's taking on the establishment, call Planned Parenthood the establishment and then get made when folks respond to that negatively.

It's incredible that a man running for president would answer that question the way he did. He could have literally said anything other than say "We're taking on not only Wall Street and the economic establishment, we're taking on the political establishment" and then clarify that he considers PP to be in that category.

PP is abortion right now. 100% there is basically no one else.

This is an issue because it was an easily avoidable gaffe and frankly Hillary has gone easy on him. If he can't handle a simple question like Maddow's what is he gonna do in the GE when the GOP is out for blood.

I like some of his views, but mostly, he seems to be all over the place. I get his message and his vision but he just seems to rant last angry man style frequently which I just find difficult to identify with.

When I tell my friends I feel he's a bad politician they argue it's a good thing. My counter to that is if you want to run for President you need to be an exceptional politician. You can still have the views that Bernie has and be an exceptional politician. The problem is we've associated being a horrible person who does not care about their constituents with being a good politician which isn't really true.

 

[royalan]

Instead of being outraged at soundbites, look at the entire statement in context

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SwIcVpyP5A

Go to 7:50

He was asked, and he answered about many of the powerful groups that Rachel asked if he thought should be backing him based on his record, and he said exactly what he should have said.

Hillary Clinton has a lot of power and influence behind her, and is what made her a shoe in for 07 and now. And Bernie is the one having to go against that to win the Presidency.



The thing is, it wasn't a stupid statement, it was a perfectly reasonable statement that people are trying to blow into a stupid or dumb statement, when it actually makes perfect sense.

You also need to watch the interview in context.

Nothing in Maddow's question demanded that Bernie call out PP and HRC by name and link them to the establishment he's fighting.

It was a foot-in-the-mouth response.