I don't really see that any different from whole women's brands existing. Marketers like gendered products because they get to sell more stuff, and anyone with a brain male or female just buys what they want. To me the whole "you're perfect the way you are, but buy our soap" Dove branding is as unctuous as the whole Axe "you will be sex incarnate" appeal (although it's worth noting Axe has apparently been marketing their stuff to genderqueer individuals as well so it might be they are or have been trying to change their image from the stereotype.)
Is there not a term more annoying than Social Justice Warrior?
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I don't really see that any different from whole women's brands existing. Marketers like gendered products because they get to sell more stuff, and anyone with a brain male or female just buys what they want. To me the whole "you're perfect the way you are, but buy our soap" Dove branding is as unctuous as the whole Axe "you will be sex incarnate" appeal (although it's worth noting Axe has apparently been marketing their stuff to genderqueer individuals as well so it might be they are or have been trying to change their image from the stereotype.)
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Except everyone has said it's not.
So here's another annoying thing: people turning up discussions into "offense" and "a huge deal" just because someone got incisive about something.
Corronchilejano
Member
This. My father called it "his study", and he had a lab in there, but it was mostly just his hobby.
You're talking about taking offense to it, and people are talking about the aesthetics and what it means for someone's maturity. Two different things.
Inferno313
Banned
Oh yeah, definitely. It's like people always assume a criticism can only be made by someone who's absolutely furious.
"Man, Quiet's design in MGSV, kinda gross huh?"
"Dude, calm down. It's just a game."
"I... am calm?"
but what if you like how she docorates but at the same time you understand she doesn't want your stiupid pulp fiction poster and a 20 year old bandflag on the wall?
you guys make a mountain out of a molehill here. :S
Gotdatmoney
Member
I dont think the implication was its a big deal. This thread has been very inoffensive. I was just saying I dont feel man cave indicates insecurity. I'm prettysure dude isnt looking at anyone who has ever said the word with pure discontent.
Man cave would presumably have some origins in the idea that the house is the woman's domain -- and where she belongs -- while the man would need a place to retreat to away from all that lady nagging and child care. There is no similar such room for a woman because culturally we do not expect women to need a place to retreat to in the home, because the domestic arena is meant to be their responsibility. They aren't meant go somewhere to get away from the kids.
Obviously a lot of that has been lost by now, but given the original connotations I can see why people would find the word really off-putting. Even so, most people probably don't view it in that context and it strikes me as the kind of word that is so much a lazy short hand that it probably is not especially indicative of toxic masculinity or the insecurity within male culture. Not at this point, at least.
Though in the beginning? Yes, definitely. The home is a lady place to do lady things with lady decor and so for a man to take pride in home decoration we have to give it an uber macho name. I don't personally find it annoying so much as kind of amusing, though.
Obviously a lot of that has been lost by now, but given the original connotations I can see why people would find the word really off-putting. Even so, most people probably don't view it in that context and it strikes me as the kind of word that is so much a lazy short hand that it probably is not especially indicative of toxic masculinity or the insecurity within male culture. Not at this point, at least.
Though in the beginning? Yes, definitely. The home is a lady place to do lady things with lady decor and so for a man to take pride in home decoration we have to give it an uber macho name. I don't personally find it annoying so much as kind of amusing, though.
Omegasquash
Member
Strangely enough, I refer to my office as...my office. Everyone else refers to it as my man cave.
And it doesn't have anything to do with women in it. Just a lot of electronics, games, and transformers. Hell, I moved my PS4 to be used on my monitor so my wife could come in and we could play games in the same room together.
And it doesn't have anything to do with women in it. Just a lot of electronics, games, and transformers. Hell, I moved my PS4 to be used on my monitor so my wife could come in and we could play games in the same room together.
"It is how it is, let's just accept the status quo even if a small thing leads to preconceptions in our culture."
Did you see the freak out when Target got rid of the separation between boys and girls toys? Apparently to some it is a big deal, yet here we are, having completely forgotten about it. We can get rid of the separation to improve things.
On the topic of things that bother me: People getting annoyed at you wanting to change small things. Apparently it has to be a HUGE problem before you can want it fixed.
Vampire On Titus
Member
I think it has more to do with the hyperbolic language like "Reeks of insecurity" and highlighting it as an example of Toxic Masculinity. That's causing people to think of it in those terms.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Yeah I just have a bedroom I call my office. People can call their own rooms what they want, like a lounge or entertainment room. "Man cave" just goes to a hilarious extreme, in my view.
RedNumberFive
Banned
Yup, and to circle back around, language like that is exactly what I think of when I hear the term "Social Justice Warrior".
cubicle47b
Member
Yeah, basically.
No kidding, since when "i find it cringey" translates into "IT OFFENDS ME IN A DEEP, PERSONAL LEVEL AND I AM MAD!"?
That might not be a term, but it's a bit annoying that people register "i don't like" as "I HATE".
Wording should have been better on my part, but i do think the need for things to be "Man[things]" at least targets people's insecurities.
RedNumberFive
Banned
It has to be.
The Elite
BOSS
It's actually starting to lean towards that.
This, though personally I would downplay the "we just don't think about it anymore" less, because ignorance of social constructs can be insidiously damaging.
perfectchaos007
Member
Why is masculinity "toxic". Do those who consider masculinity "toxic" also consider "femininity" toxic in fairness?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I think some dudes see "toxic masculinity" and take it as an attack on masculinity, which they see themselves a part of, so then that gets construed as insecurity over it, which then leads the world to respond to that with things like #MasculinitySoFragile.
Basically there's been this total shift in who can "take a joke," gender and identity wise, which in an ideal world would help people reflect on how shit the "take a joke" defense is anyway.
cubicle47b
Member
Oh, hey, add cringe to the list. It is extremely overused lately.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
entremet
Member
You and Liu Kang arent following the discussion.
People have no problem with hating the term. The pushback came when the toxic masculinity angle was brought up.
Who said masculinity is toxic? Toxic masculinity is toxic. That's why we have the "toxic" part in there. No one is saying masculinity is toxic by default.
Add "toxic" to the list too. Now it just means "thing I don't like"
I think it was more started as a man's home office and study. A place to focus on work that had to be prepared for outside the home. He kept his stuff in this room because it's where he used the stuff. If he invited other collegues or friends over, they might hang out in this room. Yes these rooms would be for men because they were expected to work and provide. The narrative that it exist as a result of insecurity in male culture is a narrative that I find off putting. These spaces were pragmatic. Even more, they were luxuries for upper and upper middle class families who could afford the square footage. Lawyers, professors, businessmen. With the onset of American consumerism and the American suburb these spaces evolved into just hobby rooms or workshops or media rooms.
Demoskinos
Member
No I think it does because it comes from the same place some men not wanting to be remotely associated with anything feminine. Which is fuuuuucking stupid. I usually hate most of the trending hashtags I see on twitter but #masculinitysofragile is just the fucking best.
entremet
Member
Maybe because we don't see man caves as part of toxic masculinity?
Nothing to do with fragility.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Toxic masculinity, in the most general sense, are the things that dudes obsess over which are unnecessary to obsess over, and they use that uncomfortable feeling to lash out at others over it instead of realizing it came from within themselves. There's lots of perceived judgment and victimization in masculinity that men are afraid to talk about (with us even being afraid to talk about it being its own part of it).
It's like organized religion in the most broadest sense. We set these rules for ourselves that we don't even need, we live for them, and then we get mad when outsiders don't understand what the hell we're so stressed about.
Because 'traditional' concepts of masculinity - denial of emotion, strength in the face of any hardship, severe social punishment of any perceived sexuality transgression, etc. - is contributing to a mental health epidemic of suicide, drug abuse, and repression that can turn violent.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Adults using "gross" and "super gross".
Masculinity itself is not toxic, but there are extreme notions of masculinity that are concidered toxic because on the long run they hurt men.
Feeling masculine is not toxic, but any ideas of "masculinity" that make people feel inadecuate because they're not living up to a standard of masculinity, that's what is know as "toxic masculinity".
I'd do so too, but so far i haven't found a word that describes the exact feeling the word conveys, im all open to suggestions.
Sometimes something isn't disgusting, or revolting. Those seem like stronger connotations than gross.
I sneezed while snowboarding down the hill and somehow some snot got on my goggle lens. Shit was gross.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
The people that hang out around that type of masculinity tend to enjoy it. Men that don't end up socializing with others that bond in other ways. Who are you to say they obsess over things that are unnecessary? Bullying is totally not okay, but it exist between women too. The judgement and the gossip.
The singling out of toxic posturing is not unique to men. It's a human thing.
Vampire On Titus
Member
Toxic Masculinity isn't a blanket term describing all masculinity as toxic. It refers to specific masculine gender roles that are considered toxic.
Sometimes in it's application it's been used as you describe but that's not what the term itself entails.
cubicle47b
Member
You don't have to abandon the word. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. It's just overused right now. If you're looking for an alternate phrase, though, saying "watching that made me feel uncomfortable" works.
Coffee Dog
Banned
You don't understand, disliking something or disagreeing with something does not carry the same weight as saying you are disgusted. And adding weight to all opinions no matter the context is basically always beneficial.
Well, there is a saying, "even a broken clock is right twice a day", despicable people with despicable thoughts are capable of saying factually correct things and have well thought, sound arguements, doesn't make them any less shitty, but ignoring facts just cause they come from someone you don't agree with is being intentionally obtuse.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Its creates a false persona that people feel a need to fit into and when they don't it causes deep insecurity or a feeling of being worthless, an outcast, or less of a person. It causes a cognitive dissonance that can be damaging.
Yes, femininity is also toxic. It's just that we are seeing a push back against femininity more (pink, "girl" toys, etc) than we are against masculinity.
Also this.
kavanf1
Member
Once I read the post where someone psychologically profiled an entire population based on two words, I figured people were just taking the piss.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
*slowly puts up hand*
I actually kind of need those "for men" labels on products to know I'm supposed to buy it. It's hard out there, yo. I don't know if I buy a face cream I'm gonna smell like a lilac tree or something.
God Dayumm
Banned
So, why are man caves toxic masculinity again?
Is it the fart smell?
Is it the fart smell?
entremet
Member
this too, it makes me cringe so hard when people still use it unironically
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Sure. Feel free to have your own descriptors for other "toxic" things. Toxic masculinity came about as a popular term in reaction to men themselves not recognizing on a large scale where they're failing themselves when they get angry at others, like how some men can't see how we hold each other down with judgment and instead think women are doing it to them. Like how we bottle emotions and are way out of touch with ourselves emotionally, but we get mad at others for even noticing that as they try to help us improve at it.
all those unwashed shaker cups with protein funk
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