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The New Hampshire Primary |Feb 9|: Live Free or Die
- Thread starter A Human Becoming
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Who do you think oh wise one?
My money would be on Trump if I had to bet, but my confidence level isn't too high. Not yet
Your Entertainer
Member
I love this assumption that Hillary would accomplish all of her plans, some of them, or even more of them than Bernie would of his.
Congress is geared to obstruct. I think Bernie will do a better job than Hillary of inspiring progressives and mobilizing voter turnout out during mid terms, and "actually get things done" when it comes to changing the makeup of congress. Of course this is all speculation - but the patronizing "fantasy!!" Defeatist attitude towards proposals that many would find preferable needs to be toned down.
Vampire On Titus
Member
Good speech from Bernie.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I want to hop in on this. Minorities support for clinton represents an experience most clinton supporters have gone through (not trying to say all these groups have it as bad as minorities) they've lost.
Clintons supporters are older and remember a pre-00s era where cultural liberalism wasn't ascendant. They know the insidious of the rights attacks on the disprivleged and powerless and know how much has been gained and lost.
MInorities can't just hope for a better world, the know racism will be here tomorrow and they're likely to continue being disadvantaged for years and decades to come. Preserving hard won victories isn't defeatism, its progress.
Unions at least insitutionally support clinton because they've been beaten back by right to work laws and attacks on workers. They have gone from representing 25% of workers to 10%. They know progessive issues aren't unidirectional they can and have been undone. Preserving hard won victories isn't defeatism its progress.
Womens groups support hillary because they've seen GOP dismissive at the the everlasting presence of sexism and attacks that have crippled a women's right to her body in the south and midwest. They know abortion and womens issues isn't some oneway street. Preserving hard won victories isn't defeatism its progress.
Young voters by and large don't realize this because they've won most fights they've been in and their peers share their values (this is amplified by cultural segregation both online and off). They've won gay marriage, a black president and the acceptance of identity politics They had the bush years but by and large most of sanders supporters were not that adversely effected by them. They've not lost something they've won.
This is amplified by white voters and white young voters. Who even when they lose don't really lose. Who doubts that by and large most of the white students in Iowa's and NH's universities are going to be relatively fine? They might have large loans and living with their parents but they have their parents to support them in both cases. It might be a case of arrested development but its not existential. Meanwhile black and other minorities face existential problems daily. From police brutality to economic disparities these problems are very life and death.
This doesn't summarize the entire race and I don't mean to lambast bernie supporters as idiots or people oblivious to other things but their desire to brush aside realism complains reflects by and large the fact they can afford to, the clinton coalition can't
Manmademan
Member
which means what, exactly?
understanding that congress as it stands (and will likely stand for the next decade) will simply obstruct literally everything bernie proposes exactly as they do to Obama isn't being "self defeatist" it's being realistic.
none of that will come anywhere close to passing a vote much less getting out of committee. It's borderline insulting to even bring it up. Preferring a candidate that doesn't treat voters like children and tempers the rhetoric to the "possible" rather than "wishful thinking" isn't "defeatist", this is maturity.
Any change that's coming will be long, hard, and incremental, and NOT on the backs of a revolution Sanders doesn't have the political will to pull off. If it existed, Occupy wall street wouldn't have flamed out into nothing, now would it?
When do they play the music and give this guy the hook already holy cow!
I guess but sometimes more is less and people just tune out or start making fun. There is a sweet spot for a speech and he is way past it.
I guess but sometimes more is less and people just tune out or start making fun. There is a sweet spot for a speech and he is way past it.
Dems have been moving left as a party, though...
loki 16
Member
LMAO!
I didn't know Chris Christie was registered to vote in New Hampshire.
Ogrekiller
Member
Bernie supporters:
Well, we failed, but it's the message that counts right? Right? Moral victory and all.
Bernie better make sure the DNC doesn't stab him in the back come November.
It must be sobering to settle for genuine mediocrity.
But that's just the American way, right? Being "realistic" with substandard states of affairs.
BoboBrazil
Member
Lol, but seriously you are right that negotiation is key. Bernie doesn't negotiate. Hilary is a master negotiator.
Do we have proof of this or just going off the fact she had nyc donors from her time as senator?
No, things are compromised and changed slowly.
It's much more harmful to have a 'my way or the highway' mentality. Change comes slowly, and there's also the possibility that Sanders isn't an electable national candidate.
Hexa
Member
Trump victory speech starting soon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5fHS8s_yA
Currently just a video of Trump's crowd chanting USA with Bernie on CNN in the background.
Currently just a video of Trump's crowd chanting USA with Bernie on CNN in the background.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
Democrats
Voting percentage reported 43%
Bernie Sanders 59%
Hillary Clinton 38%
Republicans
Voting percentage reported 42%
Donald Trump 34%
Marco Rubio 10%
John Kasich 16%
Ted Cruz 12%
Jeb (John E. Bush) 11%
Chris Christie 8%
Carly Fiorina 4%
Ben Carson 2%
Voting percentage reported 43%
Bernie Sanders 59%
Hillary Clinton 38%
Republicans
Voting percentage reported 42%
Donald Trump 34%
Marco Rubio 10%
John Kasich 16%
Ted Cruz 12%
Jeb (John E. Bush) 11%
Chris Christie 8%
Carly Fiorina 4%
Ben Carson 2%
RPGCrazied
Member
Well, I strongly believe Trump won't be the nominee either. Just wait until there is like 3 running. Will be a different game.
valkillmore
Member
Wrap up happening me thinks.
eBay Huckster
Member
Absent any perceived differences on their platforms otherwise, Is it defeatist to prefer the agenda that relies significantly more on executive actions over the agenda that relies significantly more on legislative actions?
Poker Face
Member
It's possible to have Bernie's plans. No it's not easy, but it's his ideas are based off of other countries. The only thing stopping him is the congress/senate. Even if he compromises and only some of the ideas end up working I'd be fine with it.
Bernie needs to end this speech like 5 minutes ago, jfc
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Your Entertainer
Member
Absolutely baloney.
Is it more annoying than people insinuating that your race votes for Hilary because they're uninformed?
neurosisxeno
Member
I'm saying I hope were he elected that he could get those voters to actually show up in 2018. Yes, Obama struggled in 2010 keeping the momentum going, but it probably didn't help that outside of 2008 and 2012, most of the Democrats running pretended they didn't even know who he was, and rather than campaigning on their strengths, ran as Not-Obama Democrats. I think if Sanders got blocked for the first 2 years, we'd have had 10 years where Republicans in Congress refused to pass legislation that was meaningful, and people would start to get motivated to replace them.
It's optimistic, I know, but I choose to believe people aren't stupid enough to just keep letting these things happen. Don't get me wrong, I will vote for Hillary over anyone in the Republican field, but in the Primary I'm voting for Bernie, and I hope he gets the nomination.
The thing is, a lot of people are probably tuning in for the first time. He has to hit all his important points. If you all have seen the speech, then the speech is probably not for you.
This is my first time watching a Bernie speech. It's pretty epic, seeing it for the first time. His most basic points are radical. He's saying things that other candidates are not. That is enough.
There's no doubt that some of the other candidates are better speakers, Hilary included. However, He is saying things so straightforward and clearly, that it resonates really well.
Lol. It's weird how opinions work, huh?
If you don't agree with me, you prefer mediocrity and the failure of the American way! YEAH!
onadesertedisland
Member
Congress will obstruct any Democrat. Why not back the Democrat that won't attempt to compromise just for movement? There is no honor or reason in reaching out to the side that continuously moves the goalposts just to prove a point. The right does not want compromise, they want capitulation. Pragmatism in this case is knowing that the right is controlled by the freedom caucus.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
ftfy
The Librarian
Banned
1) Hillary is smarter than Bernie
2)Hillary is KNOWN for her obsession with minutiae. She is very detail oriented.
I'm glad that you're doing well in Atlanta, but nationally black American wealth decline has outpaced wealth decline among white Americans. And, here in Maryland, the economy hasn't fully recovered from the great recession.
It's more complicated than "Obama/center-left politics haven't benefited black America" and I accept that, but some of the blame is on those politics IMO.
Nah but we can discuss it.
Recently I have been able to understand a bit better Hillary's appeal to minorities- she's pragmatic and she's the "safe bet" in the general election. We'd have the most to lose under a GOP president, so gambling on Bernie seems risky. I just don't agree with that logic.
It boils down to Dems being more likely to take back the Senate and pick up more seats in the House with Hillary as the nominee than Bernie. There are a lot of moderate/conservative Dems in red/red-leaning states who would get killed in their elections if they were running down ticket from Bernie.
Gnome Scat
Member
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Because the president does other things?
Because politics is more than simple negotiations based on abstract principles, and Hillary has show much better adeptness at that/?
That is a nonsensical assertion even coming from a Hilary supporter like myself.
It's one thing to say "I like his ideas, but this ain't the climate" or "I want practicality in an age of Regressiveism."
But calling a more humanistic society a dream can't really be anything else than settling for mediocrity, really.
Prodigal Son
Member
Lol Carson at 2%. Give up, dude.
Yeah, I feel like I heard everything these candidates had to say after their second debates. 95% of what they've said after that has been regurgitated.
BoboBrazil
Member
http://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/de...nie-sanders-keeps-his-pragmatism-under-wraps/
In interviews, current and former staffers of Sanders described him as rude, short-tempered, and, occasionally, downright hostile, according to Seven Days.
Hed yell in meetings all the time, said one of Sanders former Senate staffers. I dont think hes a very nice man.
In his book Making History in Vermont, Steve Rosenfeld, Sanders former press secretary, quoted Sanders himself as admitting there may be some truth to descriptions of him as nasty and as having difficulty getting along with people.
She's trying to say "what he can do I can do too. Join me! I can do what he asks!" when you clearly realize she's just saying it to say it.
The Librarian
Banned
LOL
Seems to me you should prefer the legislative process for getting things done. Executive Action was never intended to be used as you are suggesting. On top of that Executive action simply takes a new President to make disappear.
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