The Amount of Hillary Hate Scares Me

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That's not it at all though. I can totally see people not wanting to vote for someone who they don't support, and don't think represents them.

Plus, it's probably time the Democrats got punished. They've been cosying up to special interests for far too long. Maybe this is what needs to happen before they start listening.

If you believe in a person's message, you should vote for the person who will represent it the closest. Sadly in 2016, not voting is damned near voting GOP, and in all likelihood not voting is like voting for Trump. If you want any of Bernie's platforms to have a fighting chance in hell, you should vote Blue regardless of who is on the ticket.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I hope anyone advocating for accelerationism finds themselves, and themselves only, at the shittiest end of the shittiest of GOP policies.
 
If you could quote where I said "all Sander supporters," that'd be lovely.

Oooh, fun.

Tell me, then. If, when you used the word "they" and the phrase "these folks'" to refer to ONE person who used the word "shrew", and said person is a Sanders supporter, who are the other people in this group of "they"?

Don't generalize if you don't want to be called out on it.

To be honest, that goes to both sides. There's way too much of trying to stuff people into easy categories in this thread. (I've accidentally done it, too, so I'm not innocent, I know.) It's kind of gross, and makes for nothing but unhealthy discourse.

So, it's cool when it's aimed at men?

Oh please please please do not start throwing around MRA rhetoric.
 
So, it's cool when it's aimed at men?

This is why some people have a negative impression of Bernie supporters. Because you use a gendered insult and refuse to see how using that gendered insult is sexist and instead turn the conversation to gendered insults against men that are not even present in the current conversation.
 
You got some hard numbers to back up this claim of "most"?

Course they don't.

To televators post: Some Hillary supporters have been denying the existence of minorities who support Bernie for a while, so it's not surprising, unfortunately.
 
It's a disservice to females who support Bernie as well. The term Berniebro inherently deminishes the roles that females play amongst his supporters.

Well, it started out as a made up term to categorize some mythical group of sexists in the Bernie camp (by pointing otu sexist tweets made by known conservatives, hilariously enough), and just naturally extended from there to mean anybody who likes Bernie.

The plan worked. They did it. Everybody applaud. \:

(You might know this. You probably know this. Don't mean to come off as explain-y!)
 
If you threw away your vote in the past it means you probably helped get RBG, Sotomayer, Kagan and Breyer spots on the SCOTUS. If you're going to continue to say they've done nothing for you (even though they may have done nothing direct for you but just liberalism in general), then I'm going to call out all your liberal ideals and moral compass rhetoric as bullshit.

You keep boiling the all the support of Clinton down to this simplistic view. We're not true liberals because we support the necon in dems clothing. It's fucking annoying. Especially when your actions themselves could do more to hurt liberalism then voting for the lesser of two evil's ever could.



I know you know the difference between punching up and punching down.

Disagree. I will be throwing away my vote if I vote for someone I don't support.
 
I don't consider either of those parties to be my allies.

I'll just repeat what I said in another thread:

I'm not saying you should, but that you literally only have 2 choices: shit vs super shit

Not voting for the "shit" makes it easier for "super shit" to win and screw things further.
 
Disagree. I will be throwing away my vote if I vote for someone I don't support.

What are you talking about? Not that I don't understand your post, I just don't get how it relates to my response to inuhanyou.

Categorize your support for the party that wins the GE anyway you like.
 
And I maintain that I'm not generalizing. "They" is a generic pronoun referring to multiple persons, in this case referring to people who harbor sexist sentiment. I've said on multiple occasions that smearing Bernie supporters in general isn't fair, as the vast majority of them are level-headed folks.

All right, fair enough. I apologize. I hope you can see how your phrasing can come off as inflammatory, though, even if unintended?

I'll note again. Let's see how long folks can ignore it.

Still waiting on that court answer.

What court answer.
 
I don't consider either of those parties to be my allies.

I'll just repeat what I said in another thread:

I feel like your comment in the quote is completely misdirected. Democrats have fought for the ACA, removed dont ask/dont tell, and legalized gay marriage. I have no idea how you can come to that conclusion when democrats have been the only national party fighting for equal rights and the poor/middle class.

/Anyway, don't worry about the Hillary hate, just vote. She'll get mine.
 
They kinda are, yeah, but they're infinitely less problematic, because dudes don't have to fight their whole lives against a system built to minimize their worth in multiple ways.

True


Side rant though: I'd argue being ugly or fat as a male is fairly brutal due to the pervasive (and toxic) idea that your masculinity and worth as a male is based on how many women you sleep with. I can't (and won't) make a quantitative judgment on that versus what it's like to be a woman (no oppression olympics here, not really relevant to my point) - but it is worth pointing out that neckbeard taunts are promoting toxic masculinity - you are worth less because you are ugly (and usually virgin is added to it, meaning that you are worth less as a straight male because you can't get women to sleep with you).

So it drives me up a wall when I see my feminist friends use that taunt over and over, and then turn around and decry toxic masculinity. YOU'RE NOT HELPING GOD DAMNIT. <beats head into wall>

I know you know the difference between punching up and punching down.

Yes I do. :-p

I wanted to point that out though, because when we're dropping "sexist" and "racist" in this thread as absolute descriptors (deliberately) without any sense of scale or degree, these are the kinds of important points that get lost. Not everyone gets punching up and punching down, and depending on your culture or where you are from, who is above you and below you may be different (or it may not be seen as "wrong" at all).

The general point that I think stufte is trying to make is that there are most certainly degrees of sexism and racism, but because people are generally trying to win points on the internet and the internet encourages rushing to the extreme end of everything, powerful words are getting weakened significantly, which ends up becoming a bad thing. I think some of the rise of Trump is due to the weakening of the terms sexist and racist. Because they've been thrown around willy-nilly, the taboo associated with them has dropped dramatically.

That said, kudos to you (Fender) for calling the term sexist and not the person. Too often people conflate the first with the second, which is fairly intellectually dishonest IMO.

I know.

My big issue with the courts is this: even if we progressives voted in every election, it wouldn't change the pattern where everything, at every level of government, gets challenged in court as soon as it is enacted. It's no longer good enough to capture a legislature and an executive branch - we also have to make sure that the judiciary isn't lurking above, waiting to basically exercise a veto over our agenda.

Making the stakes even higher is the lifetime appointment aspect of the branch. It's not very often that we get a chance to tilt it in our direction, and losses reverberate not for a presidential term or two, but for decades.

It's sad and enraging, but it's part of the flawed system that we have to navigate.

A) We don't seem to get too upset when they vote in our favor (see: Roe v Wade). :D
B) Here's the thing - for most SCOTUS rulings that are "unconstitutional" - they usually lay out a path in which to make a version of the law to make it pass constitutional muster. Either by passing it on a federal level (when they overrule state rulings or state laws) or by revising / clarifying the intent. SCOTUS doesn't generally overrule the people's mandate if it is a strong mandate. See: ACA and Obergefell, even with a conservative SCOTUS, both of those were upheld. I think SCOTUS is naturally inclined to be less activist than they have been recently, but I think they also see the complete halt the legislative process has come to nationally, and feel like they have to do something at this point.
 
All right, fair enough. I apologize. I hope you can see how your phrasing can come off as inflammatory, though, even if unintended?



What court answer.

How do you justify risking giving the Supreme Court over to Far right control for the next 20-30 years, thus ensuring that any revolution would be DOA upon hitting the SC.
 
All right, fair enough. I apologize. I hope you can see how your phrasing can come off as inflammatory, though, even if unintended?



What court answer.

I can see that; next time, I'll type it out instead of taking the lazy pronoun route. :P

---

My court question has been asked whenever the Bernie-or-Bust issue comes up, including multiple times in this thread.

The base question: How does turning-over SCOTUS to conservatives for 25+ years advance Bernie's long-term vision?

And here's the background to that question:
Let's say we hand-over the Presidency and thus SCOTUS to the GOP for the next 4 or 8 years, and they stack the bench so that it goes 5-4 or 6-3 with young conservative justices. And then, when the pendulum swings back leftward (in the two elected branches), we elect Bernie 2.0 in the 2020s. Along with Bernie comes an incredibly liberal Congress, ready to cut-into corporate influence, special interests, etc.

Then, Bernie 2.0 gets this new Congress to pass his/her agenda.

As soon as the his/her law is enacted, the GOP and its corporate buddies challenge that new law. It goes to SCOTUS and gets knocked down, courtesy of 2016's Republican judges. Repeat for anything remotely controversial that Bernie 2.0 enacts into law.

That's a sad reality of this era: anything remotely contentuous is challenged immediately in our judiciary. It's not good enough to gain control of the legislative process - we also need to see to it that laws survive the inevitable court fights that will arise.

I bring this concern up repeatedly, and the Bernie-or-Bust crowd tap dances to dodge it as though their lives depend on it.
 
For everyone saying that not voting and hoping that the GOP wins will teach the Democrats a lesson, you're right it will, it will teach them that the only way to win is to shift right and try to get the moderate GOPs who might swing back.

you don't vote, you don't count.
 
I feel like your comment in the quote is completely misdirected. Democrats have fought for the ACA, removed dont ask/dont tell, and legalized gay marriage. I have no idea how you can come to that conclusion when democrats have been the only national party fighting for equal rights and the poor/middle class.

/Anyway, don't worry about the Hillary hate, just vote. She'll get mine.

But surely you can see how corporate interests can run at odds with the talking points of the Democratic party re: equality?

One of Sanders' biggest talking points is income inequality. This adversely affects minorities and other unprivileged folk far more than it affects the already-privileged. And the middle class has been slowly disappearing for years now, making it even harder to survive or to work your way up.

Hillary's interests as far as this goes are very much suspect when she's got so much support from entities that don't give a flying fuck about equality. They got theirs. That's all that matters.

So while one hand might be fighting for more equality from the bottom up, the other hand is consuming the lower 99% from the top down.

EDIT: This is not to say I don't appreciate the accomplishments of the DNC in recent years. But I do fully believe they are actively in the middle of a tug-o'-war match between their alleged ethics and the corporate interests behind their funding.

I can see that; next time, I'll type it out instead of taking the lazy pronoun route. :P

---

My court question has been asked whenever the Bernie-or-Bust issue comes up, including multiple times in this thread.

The base question: How does turning-over SCOTUS to conservatives for 25+ years advance Bernie's long-term vision?

And here's the background to that question:
Let's say we hand-over the Presidency and thus SCOTUS to the GOP for the next 4 or 8 years, and they stack the bench so that it goes 5-4 or 6-3 with young conservative justices. And then, when the pendulum swings back leftward (in the two elected branches), we elect Bernie 2.0 in the 2020s. Along with Bernie comes an incredibly liberal Congress, ready to cut-into corporate influence, special interests, etc.

Then, Bernie 2.0 gets this new Congress to pass his/her agenda.

As soon as the his/her law is enacted, the GOP and its corporate buddies challenge that new law. It goes to SCOTUS and gets knocked down, courtesy of 2016's Republican judges. Repeat for anything remotely controversial that Bernie 2.0 enacts into law.

That's a sad reality of this era: anything remotely contentuous is challenged immediately in our judiciary. It's not good enough to gain control of the legislative process - we also need to see to it that laws survive the inevitable court fights that will arise.

I bring this concern up repeatedly, and the Bernie-or-Bust crowd tap dances to dodge it as though their lives depend on it.

Haha, cool. :D

---

Ah, I see. I'm unqualified to answer this question because I'm not part of that crowd, haha, so I guess I shouldn't have asked. I'll absolutely vote for Hillary and sacrifice my personal desires because I'd rather her win than any GOP candidate.
 
I can see that; next time, I'll type it out instead of taking the lazy pronoun route. :P

---

My court question has been asked whenever the Bernie-or-Bust issue comes up, including multiple times in this thread.

The base question: How does turning-over SCOTUS to conservatives for 25+ years advance Bernie's long-term vision?

And here's the background to that question:
Let's say we hand-over the Presidency and thus SCOTUS to the GOP for the next 4 or 8 years, and they stack the bench so that it goes 5-4 or 6-3 with young conservative justices. And then, when the pendulum swings back leftward (in the two elected branches), we elect Bernie 2.0 in the 2020s. Along with Bernie comes an incredibly liberal Congress, ready to cut-into corporate influence, special interests, etc.

Then, Bernie 2.0 gets this new Congress to pass his/her agenda.

As soon as the his/her law is enacted, the GOP and its corporate buddies challenge that new law. It goes to SCOTUS and gets knocked down, courtesy of 2016's Republican judges. Repeat for anything remotely controversial that Bernie 2.0 enacts into law.

That's a sad reality of this era: anything remotely contentuous is challenged immediately in our judiciary. It's not good enough to gain control of the legislative process - we also need to see to it that laws survive the inevitable court fights that will arise.

I bring this concern up repeatedly, and the Bernie-or-Bust crowd tap dances to dodge it as though their lives depend on it.

Fantastic post as always but your words will fall on death ears.
 
Also, regarding sexism, can we please not venrure down the MRA road? Can't stand that nonsense.

And regarding any recent Bernie supporters not voting if Hillary has the nom., while i sure dont trust her as much as i do Bernie, theres a good bit at stake here. Particularly the SC. A vote for her is a vote for status quo/slow as hell change at best but it's better than the alternative. As unfortunate as that is to say, people seem to fear too much change.
 
Hate the sexism, not the sexist?

His doubling down was problematic, but I don't think using sexist speech means one is a sexist. Just that sexism has been pervasive in our culture for long enough that it enters our everyday speech without thought. Sort of like how I used to say, "that's gay" reflexively. I had to consciously make a effort to stop using that word. Same with bitch. I'm having a hard time removing it from casual conversation, even though I'm trying to.

I have always been a liberal but there is no way I would ever vote for Hillary. I don't consider myself a party voter so I do not die by the democratic vote.

I'm actually starting to believe that people like this aren't liberals but nihilists.
 
She deserves the hate, she's a snake in the grass

Corporate media loves her, corporate donors love her

Her history is poisoned, Goldwater up
 
His doubling down was problematic, but I don't think using sexist speech means one is a sexist. Just that sexism has been pervasive in our culture for long enough that it enters our everyday speech without thought. Sort of like how I used to say, "that's gay" reflexively. I had to consciously make a effort to stop using that word. Same with bitch. I'm having a hard time removing it from casual conversation, even though I'm trying to.

Preach! Self improvement is hard, but we should all make an attempt. :D
 
I'm counting on Sanders losing this primary

Trump winning the general

then when 2020 rolls around everyone will be begging for Bernie and Clinton will be too embarrassed to show her face
Realistically it'll be Warren carrying the torch for Bernie.

But this will be my own silver lining to the stormcloud of sadness known as a Trump presidency.
 
A) We don't seem to get too upset when they vote in our favor (see: Roe v Wade). :D
B) Here's the thing - for most SCOTUS rulings that are "unconstitutional" - they usually lay out a path in which to make a version of the law to make it pass constitutional muster. Either by passing it on a federal level (when they overrule state rulings or state laws) or by revising / clarifying the intent. SCOTUS doesn't generally overrule the people's mandate if it is a strong mandate. See: ACA and Obergefell, even with a conservative SCOTUS, both of those were upheld. I think SCOTUS is naturally inclined to be less activist than they have been recently, but I think they also see the complete halt the legislative process has come to nationally, and feel like they have to do something at this point.

Part of my queasiness on the court is that rulings like the ACA and Obergefell are not really the norm. We got lucky on Obergefell in that Kennedy is moderate on this particular issue, along with a few others. ACA was another odd special case where the chief justice and Kennedy deviated from the conservative party line. Much more often than not, Roberts and Kennedy still lean pretty conservative, and the idea of hoping for GOP nominees to deviate on major issues is too risky for my tastes.

(In the end, I'd love for the judiciary to become less partisan, as it was decades ago.. but I don't know how to get out of this crummy situation where the court often has the final word on nearly everything.)
 
That's not it at all though. I can totally see people not wanting to vote for someone who they don't support, and don't think represents them.

Plus, it's probably time the Democrats got punished. They've been cosying up to special interests for far too long. Maybe this is what needs to happen before they start listening.

It's not the democrats that get punished, it's the middle class, and minorities. Blows my mind how selfish some people, that call themselves liberals, can be.
 
Requoting this as this should be the reason why a Bernie voter should vote Dem even if he does lose:

I can see that; next time, I'll type it out instead of taking the lazy pronoun route. :P

---

My court question has been asked whenever the Bernie-or-Bust issue comes up, including multiple times in this thread.

The base question: How does turning-over SCOTUS to conservatives for 25+ years advance Bernie's long-term vision?

And here's the background to that question:
Let's say we hand-over the Presidency and thus SCOTUS to the GOP for the next 4 or 8 years, and they stack the bench so that it goes 5-4 or 6-3 with young conservative justices. And then, when the pendulum swings back leftward (in the two elected branches), we elect Bernie 2.0 in the 2020s. Along with Bernie comes an incredibly liberal Congress, ready to cut-into corporate influence, special interests, etc.

Then, Bernie 2.0 gets this new Congress to pass his/her agenda.

As soon as the his/her law is enacted, the GOP and its corporate buddies challenge that new law. It goes to SCOTUS and gets knocked down, courtesy of 2016's Republican judges. Repeat for anything remotely controversial that Bernie 2.0 enacts into law.

That's a sad reality of this era: anything remotely contentuous is challenged immediately in our judiciary. It's not good enough to gain control of the legislative process - we also need to see to it that laws survive the inevitable court fights that will arise.

I bring this concern up repeatedly, and the Bernie-or-Bust crowd tap dances to dodge it as though their lives depend on it.
 
Realistically it'll be Warren carrying the torch for Bernie.

But this will be my own silver lining to the stormcloud of sadness known as a Trump presidency.

A trump presidency would be doing Elizabeth Warren no favors if she were to decide to run at some point.
 
Requoting this as this should be the reason why a Bernie voter should vote Dem even if he does lose:

Also it is important to note scotus isn't some all powerful body. We can and should call a second constitutional convention if the country moves further left or right.
 
I'm counting on Sanders losing this primary

Trump winning the general

then when 2020 rolls around everyone will be begging for Bernie and Clinton will be too embarrassed to show her face

Is sanders going to spend the next four years in carbonite? Guy is 74 now.

Edit: warren? Please look up her dob as well.
 
I wasn't worried before, but after reading this thread I'm genuinely scared.

There are far too many Sanders reporters that would rather scuttle the country over the next four years so that their guy might have another shot. Four years is a long time, and who knows what a President Drumpf could do with it, especially over the next two with a GOP Electorate to push his laws/ideals through.

And what happens in 4 years when there is not progressive liberal-socialist candidate? Will you all stay home then too? So we get Drumpf for 8 years? How could this many people be so short-sighted?

At this point it's not about Clinton winning, it's about ensuring Trump doesn't.
 
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