Support NeoGAF

[Zaptruder]

There is hyperbole with both sides of the argument - of course you can do relatively occlusion-free room scale tracking with multiple camera points. Nobody should be disputing that.

But the people saying the rift with 2 tracking cameras will track a volume as well as light house are objectively incorrect, especially the larger the tracking area is. Around 15' x 15' is when the extents become noticeable enough to affect actual games. It's worth noting that 15' x 15' is not the limit of the Lighthouse tracking system, and the larger the volume the more obvious the limitations of the rift tracking system become. Something like The Void could not be realistically done with the rift, it would need a lighthouse style method of tracking.

But the Rift is expandable in the sameway that Lighthouse is. It's not limited to 2 cameras as far as I can tell.

Main problem is it takes up USB3 ports, and has smaller FOV/range than the Lighthouse system.

The additional computation load isn't appreciably different between either solutions (according to Valve).

On one hand, if you wanted to be pedantic, then yes, the lighthouse tracking solution appears to be somewhat more robust.

But in real terms, they're effectively the same thing for 99% of users/use case scenarios.

Isn't the issue not to do with cameras but to do with Touch's design itself, or so Alan Yates mentions?

If that's the case - it's because the Touch controllers are small enough to allow the user to get their hands in a position where they can occlude each other... where as the larger size of the Vive controller and placement of the ring generally avoids that problem (but also avoids the advantage of having hands compellingly close together - e.g. fishing rod).

 

[Krejlooc]

But the Rift is expandable in the sameway that Lighthouse is. It's not limited to 2 cameras as far as I can tell.

This is a comparison of the already-not standard 2-camera set up. The point is that no, Oculus Touch does not track room scale at the same fidelity as Lighthouse. They are not equals. Yes, you can jimmy rig a solution that'll approach lighthouse tracking, but the hardware requirements goes up significantly. There have been people tracking using just 2 light houses at volumes of 25'+ x 25'.

But in real terms, they're effectively the same thing for 99% of users/use case scenarios.

In real terms, at 15' x 15' - a dimension some Vive games are already targeting, the rift tracking solution has real consequences along the edges of the wall.

 

[Melon Husk]

You're forgetting that every Touch camera requires a USB3 connection to the PC, and that setup is going to go very differently in reality. Also, is it not true that Oculus hasn't shown a chaperone system to stop you bumping into furniture?

 

[Krejlooc]

You're forgetting that Touch requires a USB3 connection to the PC. Also, is it not true that Oculus hasn't shown a chaperone system to stop you bumping into furniture?

There is nothing stopping Oculus Touch from using a chaperone system, and it'll even work with steamVR. In fact, there is one feature of chaperone that the oculus rift could do relatively easily that the HTC Vive could not do - real world object tracking and positioning using stereoscopic cameras. The Vive only has a single camera to track real world objects - the vaunted passthrough system is really just an edge detect image filter on top of a monoscopic video stream from the headset. The rift using touch's second camera could do kinect-like stereoscopic object tracking (but not time of flight tracking)... but no software exists for it. Yet.

 

[Turin Turambar]

In real terms, at 15' x 15' - a dimension some Vive games are already targeting, the rift tracking solution has real consequences along the edges of the wall.

It's more important the dimension that the consumers are targeting. It won't matter if there is a dozen of developers targeting the biggest possible size, if 90% of the consumers play in a 5'x5' area.

 

[Krejlooc]

It's more important the dimension that the consumers are targeting. It won't matter if there is a dozen of developers targeting the biggest possible size, if 90% of the consumers play in a 5'x5' area.

You don't get to discount real world situations with "oh but it doesn't affect me so there is no difference." No matter how much you wish it to be so. This is a very real limitation, and it has affected developers.

Further, I would say 90% of those choosing a vive over a rift are not limiting themselves to 5 x 5 tracking space.

And this ignores enterprise solutions, of course.

 

[Owlowiscious]

The consensus is that Oculus Touch, with 2 positional tracking cameras, ignoring occlusion issues, can match the Vive's lighthouse tracking up to a volume of 12' x 12'.

please explain occlusion

 

[mrklaw]

please explain occlusion

If you have one camer and turn your back to it while holding a controller to your chest, the camera can't see the controller.

With two cameras in opposite corners that is less of an issue in most cases. However partly because the oculus touch co trollers are smaller, it would be possible to hold them in positions where one might occlude the other more easily than with vive.

Realistically though - in a volume of around 12x13 as illustrated by Kreijlooc, they should be similarly capable. This assumes that oculus supports that config when they launch touch (almost certainly). It'll also be trickier to setup due to needing the cameras connected to the PC.

I think also - given the lower field of view in the oculus cameras - wouldn't you need more available space for the same tracked volume? You'd need the camera to be some distance away to fully track a persons height?

I think 12x12 is perfectly practical for most people, and would be competitive enough for oculus to be satisfied. But I wonder if there is any chance they might upgrade the cameras?

 

[mrklaw]

You're forgetting that every Touch camera requires a USB3 connection to the PC, and that setup is going to go very differently in reality. Also, is it not true that Oculus hasn't shown a chaperone system to stop you bumping into furniture?

One of the valve developers in a talk mentioned they would support chaperone in steamVR for oculus touch. But as t stands currently you'd have to manually define the area covered as oculus don't have room tracking for you to draw the area (which is what you do with vive). But if oculus added room tracking then valve would support that too

Also important to understand that the camera doesn't detect anything - it's the headset detecting when it goes outside of your predefined boundaries, then it draws the virtual walls or fares in a camera view. It doesn't detect pets or anything. I suppose it could but that would require the camera to be continually feeding back to the computer and running software to analyse the input (and for you to be looking at the object). As mentioned, oculus rift would be better positioned for this as their cameras are constantly monitoring the room area so could in theory detect objects that enter the space

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

please explain occlusion

It is something blocking the line of sight between the camera and the controller, in this case usually the players body, so that it can't be accurately tracked. The set-up for Touch last year had two cameras in front of the user, so if you do a 180 and face away from them and, say, hold the controller close to your chest, it wouldn't be seen by the cameras. This can be alleviated by optimizing camera position to cover as wide an area as possible. Touch has been delayed to the second half of 2016, and with the Vive getting incredibly positive press for its 360 controller tracking working really well, Oculus might now be prioritizing getting 360 working as well as forward 180. Palmer has said it can be done, but whether they're going to target it as a default configuration we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Owlowiscious]

thank you

 

[Melon Husk]

One of the valve developers in a talk mentioned they would support chaperone in steamVR for oculus touch. But as t stands currently you'd have to manually define the area covered as oculus don't have room tracking for you to draw the area (which is what you do with vive). But if oculus added room tracking then valve would support that too

Also important to understand that the camera doesn't detect anything - it's the headset detecting when it goes outside of your predefined boundaries, then it draws the virtual walls or fares in a camera view. It doesn't detect pets or anything. I suppose it could but that would require the camera to be continually feeding back to the computer and running software to analyse the input (and for you to be looking at the object). As mentioned, oculus rift would be better positioned for this as their cameras are constantly monitoring the room area so could in theory detect objects that enter the space

Sure, we'll see in ~6 months. Doing that real-time sounds computationally intensive.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

Just out of curiosity, how long are the usb 3.0 cables for the cameras that come with the oculus?

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

Just out of curiosity, how long are the usb 3.0 cables for the cameras that come with the oculus?

I don't think they've said, but USB extensions work (as do HDMI extensions for the headset).

 

[AncientDiety]

Damn, I need a PC upgrade too, don't think I can afford this currently, ugh. Definitely interested in VR though.

 

[mrklaw]

Sure, we'll see in ~6 months. Doing that real-time sounds computationally intensive.

Well the object detection is just me speculating on what is technically possible. I don't expect that to come anytime soon, if ever.

 

[Monger]

Yeah I'm not really sure why everyone thinks the Rift won't support room scale. There are youtube videos of it working with 2 cameras and Palmer has stated that it works. Maybe people are just unaware.

In the end, I'm not sure how much it matters what the touch is technically capable of if Oculus doesn't officially support it. The Budget Cuts Dev has the touch Dev kit.

The system may match [Lighthouse] in terms of capabilities, but we’re not trying to push that as something for developers to do. Most of the developers we’ve talked to doesn’t want to limit their audience beyond a subset of a subset of a subset of users,” he said. “You have people who have PCs that are powerful enough to run VR (or willing to buy one), then of that set, people who are interested in virtual reality. [Developers] don’t want to narrow it then down to people who want to clear out large spaces in their homes.”

Currently, all of the publicly available information points towards the Rift+Touch primarily being a forward-facing, non-360 experience. Whether or not the Rift can technically support room-scale doesn't matter all that much to us as developers, because in the end, as long as room-scale is a fringe setup used by a small fraction of the customers, rather than the recommended setup, we'd be losing more than we gain by targeting that platform.
That's of course not to say that Rift+Touch a bad platform, it's the best one for seated experiences, the same way Vive is the best for room-scale experiences. All of us developers would love to talk about the Rift+Touch and PSVR+Move, sharing all the information and thoughts we have, if we could. But that's not how companies work - the way Valve lets us freely use and talk about the Vive is an exception, not a rule.

 

[mrklaw]

Yes we know that. But given the almost rapturous reception vive has been getting, and that the oculus touch can technically support a similar setup (with some limitations), I expect and hope oculus will update those documents and guidelines in the additional 6 months they've given themselves to launch touch

 

[ThatsMytrunks]

Can the Vive use additional lighthouses? I'd be willing to buy a couple more and putting them in every corner of the room, personally.

Also, krejlooc, is HL2VR a thing that's still being worked on? Or is that something that's not being talked about publicly right now? I'd LOVE to try that on the Vive with the motion controls. The Hydra implementation was so so so so cool.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Are there plans to sell Vive on Amazon like Oculus is doing with the Rift?

 

[Evo X]

Can the Vive use additional lighthouses? I'd be willing to buy a couple more and putting them in every corner of the room, personally.

Yes, but I don't think there is much benefit from doing that.

 

[cakefoo]

Would this be a pretty accurate estimate of how Chaperone might configure this play area?

 

[habithipster]

Well the object detection is just me speculating on what is technically possible. I don't expect that to come anytime soon, if ever.

Interesting comments from one of the Hover Junkers devs:

"They seemed to have accidentally also pushed the ability of the camera to automatically map out the bounds, but they quickly shadow updated and now it wont."

"It just kept splitting up the polygon of the room more and more the more accurately it was able to figure out the angles of things. it drew around a pipe we have on the wall, drew around my desk, drew around some boxes, etc."

 

[artsi]

I didn't realize Rift had this massive search spike compared to Vive on the day of pre-orders. Alexa rank is also still quite higher, but htcvive.com has been rising steadily.

Gear VR is also pretty popular in searches, seems like it spiked around the time when Galaxy S7 was announced.

I'm really interested how the sales will be split up between the (PC) HMD's, hopefully the companies will release numbers soon.

 

[Kysen]

In my opinion Vive has the best tracking method out of all the VR headsets shown so far which is why I went with that. Watching people throwing and catching the wands with the headset on shows just how 1 to 1 the motion to tracking is.

The Oculus method of having multiple cameras and loads of usb cables feels like a hack for room scale VR. I also don't agree with using an X1 controller as the base input method because it is the most limited of all the current gen controllers. Does it even have gyro/accelorometer support? What good is it having all that visual freedom if you are still stuck interacting with objects using button prompts only.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Yes, but I don't think there is much benefit from doing that.

According to Palmer Luckey, the reason for using more than two cameras is the controllers being obstructed from sensors in certain situations, and he said that all two-sensor setups from any manufacturer would have the same issues.

 

[KingSnake]

According to Palmer Luckey, the reason for using more than two cameras is the controllers being obstructed from sensors in certain situations, and he said that all two-sensor setups from any manufacturer would have the same issues.

But the lighthouses are not sensors. That's the whole point.

 

[mrklaw]

In my opinion Vive has the best tracking method out of all the VR headsets shown so far which is why I went with that. Watching people throwing and catching the wands with the headset on shows just how 1 to 1 the motion to tracking is.

The Oculus method of having multiple cameras and loads of usb cables feels like a hack for room scale VR. I also don't agree with using an X1 controller as the base input method because it is the most limited of all the current gen controllers. Does it even have gyro/accelorometer support? What good is it having all that visual freedom if you are still stuck interacting with objects using button prompts only.

I'm not a fan of the Xbox one controller being packed in, but Palmer is right when he says the vast majority of games being developed since DK1 are targeting a standard PC controller - either Xbox or a wheel/Hotas/m&kb. Of course motion controllers provide additional options, but you absolutely still want game pad support to play 90+% of VR games - at least until more transition to motion controllers

 

[mrklaw]

But the lighthouses are not sensors. That's the whole point.

Same thing though. Two sensors/two emitters - you're still looking at fields of view and supported tracking volume

 

[Owlowiscious]

According to Palmer Luckey, the reason for using more than two cameras is the controllers being obstructed from sensors in certain situations, and he said that all two-sensor setups from any manufacturer would have the same issues.

But the lighthouses are not sensors. That's the whole point.

Yup he's playing the wording/phrasing game and why I don't trust much of what is said from him. He's being a very good marketer but if things go poorly (like with the price reveal) it will bite him in the butt.

 

[KingSnake]

I'm not a fan of the Xbox one controller being packed in, but Palmer is right when he says the vast majority of games being developed since DK1 are targeting a standard PC controller - either Xbox or a wheel/Hotas/m&kb. Of course motion controllers provide additional options, but you absolutely still want game pad support to play 90+% of VR games - at least until more transition to motion controllers

The down side of this is that the motion controllers might remain underutilized if the adoption of Touch is weak. And it's a vicious circle, as the appeal of Touch depends on the games.

Same thing though. Two sensors/two emitters - you're still looking at fields of view and supported tracking volume

It's not the same thing.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

The down side of this is that the motion controllers might remain underutilized if the adoption of Touch is weak. And it's a vicious circle, as the appeal of Touch depends on the games.

I can't imagine many early adopters not buying Touch, and I especially can't imagine any developer making a game for Oculus and Vive only supporting motion on one platform post-Touch. SteamVR will support Touch, porting motion controls from one system to another should be incredibly easy. It's a bummer that Touch is still months away, but I'm not really concerned about support for it.

 

[mrklaw]

The down side of this is that the motion controllers might remain underutilized if the adoption of Touch is weak. And it's a vicious circle, as the appeal of Touch depends on the games.



It's not the same thing.

It's semantics. The system does the same thing (positional tracking) from two fixed points


I don't have a problem with low touch adoption. Firstly I'm sure there will be a high percentage of OR owners that buy touch - they'll want the good stuff that vive has been showing. Secondly devs will port everything to everywhere for best return on investment. Vive is leading the development regarding room tracking and motion controls, and I would expect the majority of those games to come to oculus touch as soon as possible

 

[KingSnake]

I can't imagine many early adopters not buying Touch, and I especially can't imagine any developer making a game for Oculus and Vive only supporting motion on one platform post-Touch. SteamVR will support Touch, porting motion controls from one system to another should be incredibly easy. It's a bummer that Touch is still months away, but I'm not really concerned about support for it.

You might be right. Still I see a lot of Rift early adopters stating that they want just the seated/cockpit experience.

It might depend also on the price of Touch.

 

[Bsigg12]

The down side of this is that the motion controllers might remain underutilized if the adoption of Touch is weak. And it's a vicious circle, as the appeal of Touch depends on the games.



It's not the same thing.

Going forward, it is entirely on Oculus to show people why the Touch controllers are worth a purchase as well having enough content at launch of the controllers as well as coming down the pipeline to make buying them worth it. I would hope with delaying the controllers to the second half of 2016, Oculus is building a really solid lineup of titles that really showcase what the Touch controllers can do.

For the Vive, I'm hoping the flow of content that take advantage of the motion controllers is consistent because I am worried that everything they have been showing for launch of the Vive might be the only things for a little while.

 

[mrklaw]

You might be right. Still I see a lot of Rift early adopters stating that they want just the seated/cockpit experience.

It might depend also on the price of Touch.

My guess would be 80% they have been looking forward to specific games they've followed for a couple of years during the DK1/2/CB days, which will all be seated games; and 20% they don't want to think about what they might be missing by going with the OR instead of vive so they're justifying their choice

 

[artsi]

Regarding Touch, this Reddit post caught my eye.

A developer said they'll be launching their game on Rift with motion controls, and followed up with this.

So, Touch release might not be that far away after all? I guess we'll hear about it at GDC.

 

[Bsigg12]

Regarding Touch, this Reddit post caught my eye.

A developer said they'll be launching their game on Rift with motion controls, and followed up with this.



So, Touch release might not be that far away after all? I guess we'll hear about it at GDC.

I was expecting a June release with it announced at their E3 briefing.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

Didn't they mention a Touch devkit? Or was that more of a private distribution thing than DK2-esque availability?

 

[artsi]

Didn't they mention a Touch devkit? Or was that more of a private distribution thing than DK2-esque availability?

It seems like just select devs have Touch dev kits, and from what the dev on Reddit said I'd gather that they're restricted by some kind of NDA before GDC.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

It seems like just select devs have Touch dev kits, and from what the dev on Reddit said I'd gather that they're restricted by some kind of NDA before GDC.

I think I was remembering this interview, but that was over a year ago pre-Touch reveal (pre-Vive reveal too, I believe)

 

[Bboy AJ]

I still don't understand why there's no Pascal news. I have a Vive coming but a GTX 770.

 

[Monger]

I didn't realize Rift had this massive search spike compared to Vive on the day of pre-orders. Alexa rank is also still quite higher, but htcvive.com has been rising steadily.

Gear VR is also pretty popular in searches, seems like it spiked around the time when Galaxy S7 was announced.

I'm really interested how the sales will be split up between the (PC) HMD's, hopefully the companies will release numbers soon.

I'd imagine the numbers will favor the Rift. Oculus has the greater mind share with the success of the Kickstarter and putting VR back on the map, the Press from the Facebook buyout and just being around longer. People who aren't enthusiasts may know the Oculus name, but not really the Vive yet. On top of that, room scale further segments a market that is already reduced by the cost of entry and pc requirements. If Vive numbers are even remotely competitive I would have to think its a pretty big success for them.

I think how open HTC and Valve have been with the Pre has helped them tremendously though. The CES press was overwhelmingly positive and had me looking at the Vive seriously for the first time, but the videos from guys like the Node team absolutely sold me on the product. And with launch coming up and YouTube personalities like Jacksepticeye putting out videos to 9 million subscribers it should help get the name out there.

 

[bigwinnerx]

I still don't understand why there's no Pascal news. I have a Vive coming but a GTX 770.

I absolutely know there's a better and cheaper way to do this, but, ended up buying a 970, sold The Division code, and I'll just flip it for whatever I can get for it when the new stuff is out. Heading into both a Rift and a Vive in March/April with a 770 wasn't going to work.

Also the thought of selling a $35 code to put a dent in $1500 worth of VR I know is a pound off an elephant, but, I wasn't going to play it.

 

[pj]

It's not the same thing.

How is it not the same? Blocking line of sight is equally possible in a two lighthouse system and a two camera oculus system.

 

[Cartman86]

I'd imagine the numbers will favor the Rift. Oculus has the greater mind share with the success of the Kickstarter and putting VR back on the map, the Press from the Facebook buyout and just being around longer. People who aren't enthusiasts may know the Oculus name, but not really the Vive yet. On top of that, room scale further segments a market that is already reduced by the cost of entry and pc requirements. If Vive numbers are even remotely competitive I would have to think its a pretty big success for them.

I think how open HTC and Valve have been with the Pre has helped them tremendously though. The CES press was overwhelmingly positive and had me looking at the Vive seriously for the first time, but the videos from guys like the Node team absolutely sold me on the product. And with launch coming up and YouTube personalities like Jacksepticeye putting out videos to 9 million subscribers it should help get the name out there.

Yeah very smart to get these things out there as the Rift comes out a little ahead. Really curious if what people perceive as "real games" with the Rift will impress over the interactivity of the Vive? Or is the cat out of the bag?

 

[artsi]

I hope playing that stupid browser game won me a free Vive, because I damaged my shoulder doing the last two missions

I'd imagine the numbers will favor the Rift. Oculus has the greater mind share with the success of the Kickstarter and putting VR back on the map, the Press from the Facebook buyout and just being around longer. People who aren't enthusiasts may know the Oculus name, but not really the Vive yet. On top of that, room scale further segments a market that is already reduced by the cost of entry and pc requirements. If Vive numbers are even remotely competitive I would have to think its a pretty big success for them.

I think how open HTC and Valve have been with the Pre has helped them tremendously though. The CES press was overwhelmingly positive and had me looking at the Vive seriously for the first time, but the videos from guys like the Node team absolutely sold me on the product. And with launch coming up and YouTube personalities like Jacksepticeye putting out videos to 9 million subscribers it should help get the name out there.

Yeah, those are my thoughts too.

And while many PC gamers dislike exclusives and might even switch to Vive for moral reasons, I do think that the Oculus funded games have an impact when some people make their choices. Price is a factor too, even if Vive has better package value (if you want motion controls / room scale) there are people who just see the absolute price and go with that. I'm really interested how it will balance out in the end.

 

[Compsiox]

I hope playing that stupid browser game won me a free Vive, because I damaged my shoulder doing the last two missions



Yeah, those are my thoughts too.

And while many PC gamers dislike exclusives and might even switch to Vive for moral reasons, I do think that the Oculus funded games have an impact when some people make their choices. Price is a factor too, even if Vive has better package value (if you want motion controls / room scale) there are people who just see the absolute price and go with that. I'm really interested how it will balance out in the end.

I'm guessing (marketshare):

70% - Oculus
30% - Vive

I hope I'm wrong and Vive is stronger than that.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

I'm guessing (marketshare):

70% - Oculus
30% - Vive

I hope I'm wrong and Vive is stronger than that.

That's probably right. Oculus has been around for 2+ years with several publicly available DKs; they're practically synonymous with VR in the minds of many.

HTC/Valve have made tremendous progress in a very short timeframe, though -- in terms of technology and mindshare.

 

[bigwinnerx]

I made the mistake (good fortune?) of showing my kids the Tilt Brush and the Fantastic Contraption videos and I'm on the hook to have those Vive wands in the house ASAP.