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[Vault Dweller 111]

If you go to the very first thread made on gaf about him on the day he decided to run, I pledged my vote to him then. People laughed.




..and now?

You're still dumb?

 

[Sumio Mondo]

You're still dumb?

Nah, that guy is a winner. He's an "expert."

 

[Foffy]

It sometimes takes people a long time to decide what they want to be in life. Some people go through life never knowing. It's all life experiences at the end of the day. The world is forever changing and jobs in certain sectors will certainly be no more in some time into the future, who can say when. After the death of the industrial sector here in the UK in the 80s, things changed a lot and people had to get to grips with changing their careers. I know blokes who went from the steelworks industry to work in I.T. in the 90s and people who went from being a well paid plastic technician to an office body who types things into a database all day, every day. These things too will change into the future where things become more automated. We've already seen how there's now automated check outs at supermarkets and less shopping tills, people relying more and more on buying online and there soon won't be much of any real retail presence left at this rate, so retail jobs will go down, warehouse jobs/website developer/designer jobs will go up. It's a rapidly changing world we live in now, technology is the sector to be in now, imo. Some of these uni people should choose their careers wisely, at least, until they realise what they want to do in life. I have agree with those that saying uni people who come out not being able to "get a job" should never have gone to get a phd in Art when it's such a niche market. The creative industries are stocked full of dreams waiting to be burned down as it is. People want "fun jobs" but don't like the grunt work that comes after education. I know a guy who works in I.T. who took a frigging Law degree and he is without a doubt one of the dumbest people I have ever met.

The problem we face in technology is we're now seeing you need very few to disrupt and do a lot. One can entertain if we have enough humane jobs for people on the earth today, but it is slightly foolish to believe this possibility expands as we begin to enter an age where the human being in labor turns into what the horse was for transportation, and this is especially bad with a headcanon that demands one's worth is only in labor. This doesn't even bring up issues of people who may not naturally be interested in the panacea known as STEM. Are they fools for not having interest in it, when interest and passion can't be headbanged into? I've made it clear many times on GAF that we will, on some level, have to decouple income from labor, and such trends necessitate it. I think that actually might help some who simply feel scared of failing into a void if they make one simple mistake. I mean, who would really take a risk knowing in many instances you can lose it all if something doesn't go perfectly? I think the fear of falling through a bottom is a huge fear some have, and in places like America, this can easily happen. Very few safety nets for people exist as is, and then there's the whole issue of social mobility: you fall down, you're very likely to be cemented downwards. We often infer poverty as a character trait more than anything else, which of course feeds into the consistent hallucination of the isolated self that can only go so far as one wants on will alone.

Another problem we face is what we're doing to empower people for what will be their vocations. The one's looking for fun careers are not really aiming for meaningful careers. Fun can be surface level nonsense, but not when the rubber meets the road, where one needs discipline, effort, and a constant feeling to 'swim' with things. On the other end is practicality, where people pick safe jobs that drain whatever "soul" one could ascribe a person to have. I feel much of what we instill in people is literally an either/or between those two, and that's a fucking abysmal proposition to ask people in what way would you like them to waste their time, which of course is being fed to automation on both spectrums.

 

[Keihart]

It is nice. It wasn't nice when I was a poor immigrant too. Here's the guide to life in America:

Do well on your SATs, get full ride scholarship.
Do well in your college classes, get internships.
(Do well on GRE/GMAT/LSAT, get paid GA/TA position for free grad school).
(Do well in grad school, get internships).
Do well at internships, get guaranteed offer.
Do well at job, double salary in 5 years.
Post on GAF.

All of this can be done while working full time btw.

I'd rather be happy though, i think not everybody has their carrer and life figured out when they finsh college.

Ideally by 30 you would be working in whatever your are going to dedicate yourself to, but in reallity, most people don't and only work in what pays the bills.

 

[GamerJM]

What you DON'T do is sit in your mom's house and complain that you're a bad test taker, or that you would have gotten that job if you'd tied your tie differently. There's no such thing as luck. There's only hustle, and you either hustle, or you don't.

What if you DO have mental health issues or a disability that make it difficult for your to do well on exams? What are you even supposed to do? Most well-paying jobs require that you've at some point, done well on some sort of difficult exam, if they require any kind of training or schooling. You can say that you need to find a skillset that allows you to succeed, or you can find a job elsewhere, but that takes time for people. You can make excuses, saying that this entire mentality isn't really a bootstraps mentality, but I don't really see how you can argue that. It feels like everyone who agrees with this position has difficulty empathizing with individuals who haven't quickly succeeded in life because they did.

 

[LyleLanley]

What if you DO have mental health issues or a disability that make it difficult for your to do well on exams? What are you even supposed to do? Most well-paying jobs require that you've at some point, done well on some sort of difficult exam, if they require any kind of training or schooling. You can say that you need to find a skillset that allows you to succeed, or you can find a job elsewhere, but that takes time for people. You can make excuses, saying that this entire mentality isn't really a bootstraps mentality, but I don't really see how you can argue that. It feels like everyone who agrees with this position has difficulty empathizing with individuals who haven't quickly succeeded in life because they did.

I don't think anyone is making the argument that people with severe mental health issues should leave their parents home at a young age if they can't handle it.

 

[Joelstinton14]

. I think that actually might help some who simply feel scared of failing into a void if they make one simple mistake. I mean, who would really take a risk knowing in many instances you can lose it all if something doesn't go perfectly? I think the fear of falling through a bottom is a huge fear some have, and in places like America, this can easily happen. Very few safety nets for people exist as is, and then there's the whole issue of social mobility: you fall down, you're very likely to be cemented downwards. We often infer poverty as a character trait more than anything else, which of course feeds into the consistent hallucination of the isolated self that can only go so far as one wants on will alone.
s.

One thing i am really thankful for living in the UK is the NHS. I would hate to have a random illness that potentially not only ruins my own life through dumb luck, but also my family. As an outsider, 'America's ' sense of rugged individualism can seem rather barmy.

 

[The Beard]

Alright, so move into a different field. Now you're spending more years learning that trade and possibly a lot of money for classes and the same thing happens all over again. Suddenly your debt increases and you have nothing to show for it.

I'm not trying to take away agency from the individual in this situation but even without the excuse of mental illness, scenarios like this have and do arise regardless of how much effort is put in. Some people are unlucky.

But honestly, I think we need to cool it with the stigma surrounding certain non-education-required jobs. Working retail/fast food does not make you a failure.

Yes and no. If you're working retail/fast food through your teens and early 20's, I respect that. If you're still in that same entry level position in your late 20's early 30's and beyond, you've failed. You've become content with your easy breezy lifestyle, you have very little responsibility at work, then you come home to your parents house where you have little/no responsibilities except maybe doing your own laundry and washing dishes. That's a failure IMO.

 

[Weevilone]

What if you DO have mental health issues or a disability that make it difficult for your to do well on exams? What are you even supposed to do? Most well-paying jobs require that you've at some point, done well on some sort of difficult exam, if they require any kind of training or schooling. You can say that you need to find a skillset that allows you to succeed, or you can find a job elsewhere, but that takes time for people. You can make excuses, saying that this entire mentality isn't really a bootstraps mentality, but I don't really see how you can argue that. It feels like everyone who agrees with this position has difficulty empathizing with individuals who haven't quickly succeeded in life because they did.

None of this discussion has anything to do with people that have legit mental health and/or other issues or disabilities. That's not the OP's issue and it's not what's being discussed.

There are a lot of people in this thread that prefer the safety and comfort of the parents' nest because they are risk averse, and because they prefer to live a more comfortable lifestyle than they would be able to enjoy on their own. That's not something that deserves empathy. I have a nephew that I see a handful of times per year, and every time I dread all of the various excuses he's going to present for his current situation. He's had bad luck.. He's been fired just because he took an extended break over Christmas and didn't get back to work when he was supposed to. How the employer couldn't know that his excuse for not making it back was bullshit, and therefore he was treated unfairly.. It goes on and on, and it's all I can think about reading this thread. Sometimes you have to make your own breaks and take responsibility for your life.

 

[Foffy]

One thing i am really thankful for living in the UK is the NHS. I would hate to have a random illness that potentially not only ruins my own life through dumb luck, but also my family. As an outsider, 'America's ' sense of rugged individualism can seem rather barmy.

It absolutely is. In a sense, I'd equate America as the fullness of egocentricity. Everything bad about it can be seen from a culture that asserts individualism, emphasizing the division. With division, it means little if the people suffer, so long as you don't know them and there's no direct experience to be had. It's why America is the epicenter of a "fuck you, got mine" culture gone amok.

Don't follow our example. It's one of failure, really.

 

[Korey]

I think the main point is that moving out forces you to cut the cord. You have to survive on your own, take care of your own shit, and be responsible for your own life.

At that point, if you're forced to move back home, then you've failed. Which isn't a bad thing, necessarily. You can learn from failure, regroup, and do better next time. And you have more life experience than the person who played it safe by not moving out.

 

[Crash Station]

Yes and no. If you're working retail/fast food through your teens and early 20's, I respect that. If you're still in that same entry level position in your late 20's early 30's and beyond, you've failed. You've become content with your easy breezy lifestyle, you have very little responsibility at work, then you come home to your parents house where you have little/no responsibilities except maybe doing your own laundry and washing dishes. That's a failure IMO.

I was more talking about the people that continue to work retail/fast food while they continue to perfect their craft. Say they're an aspiring game developer; they go to GDC, make a ton of contacts, work their ass off studying (whether on their own or in non-matriculated classes, etc). I'm not even necessarily saying they're living with their parents in this scenario, as I got artist friends living in a 1-bedroom apartment and constantly going to events while doing commissions and working retail. They're barely getting by, but they have no intention of giving up their craft no matter how long it takes. One of them is 35 and I'm jealous of his work ethic.

I also wouldn't assume that someone living with their parent's responsibilities end at laundry and washing dishes.

 

[Weevilone]

At that point, if you're forced to move back home, then you've failed. Which isn't a bad thing, necessarily. You can learn from failure, regroup, and do better next time. And you have more life experience than the person who played it safe by not moving out.

That's a good point. Failure isn't a permanent state, it's an important part of how we learn.

 

[I'm an expert]

You're still dumb?

if that makes you feel better online, that's fine. us dummies are the 1% running the real world though. /shrug

 

[ZackieChan]

I was more talking about the people that continue to work retail/fast food while they continue to perfect their craft. Say they're an aspiring game developer; they go to GDC, make a ton of contacts, work their ass off studying (whether on their own or in non-matriculated classes, etc). I'm not even necessarily saying they're living with their parents in this scenario, as I got artist friends living in a 1-bedroom apartment and constantly going to events while doing commissions and working retail. They're barely getting by, but they have no intention of giving up their craft no matter how long it takes. One of them is 35 and I'm jealous of his work ethic.

I also wouldn't assume that someone living with their parent's responsibilities end at laundry and washing dishes.

So the people you're talking about are the ones who aren't complacent and living at home? I don't see any problem with that. Though it is possible to have a better job than McDonald's while working on a portfolio, etc.

 

[The Beard]

I was more talking about the people that continue to work retail/fast food while they continue to perfect their craft. Say they're an aspiring game developer, they go to GDC, make a ton of contacts, work their ass off studying (whether on their own or in non-matriculated classes, etc). I'm not even necessarily saying they're living with their parents in this scenario, as I got artist friends living in a 1-bedroom apartment and constantly going to events while doing commissions and working retail. They're barely getting by, but they have no intention of giving up their craft no matter how long it takes. One of them is 35 and I'm jealous of his work ethic.

I also wouldn't assume that someone living with their parent's responsibilities end at laundry and washing dishes.

Ok, I just assumed that's what you meant given the context of this thread.

Of course if you're working an entry level job while going to school for something that can get you a better job, that is completely different.

I was talking about some of the late 20's and 30+ year old posters in this thread that are still living with mom and dad and working entry level jobs that a high school kid could do. One of their main excuses is, "I work part time and I barely make more than minimum wage so I can't afford to move out", which is no excuse at all. That's fine when you're 18-23 years old, but 30? What's preventing you from getting a better job? Lack of ambition is the answer. It's the comfortableness of living with mom and dad and the ease of that part time schedule that's keeping you from bettering yourself, because "hey, this is a pretty sweet set up I've got here, why would I add any kind of stress to my stress free life?"

And yes, I'd say the majority of these people have very little responsibility at home, that's a big part of what makes them want to stay with mom and dad. Some posters in here don't even do their own laundry.

 

[Daingurse]

Plus I can smoke weed and say Fuck in front of my dog without fear of any ramifications.

Can do all these things living with my mom lol.

 

[Crash Station]

Plus I can smoke weed and say Fuck in front of my dog without fear of any ramifications.

My mom swears more than I do (and pretty viciously no less, "you fucking cunt!" "choke on an AIDS-infested cock!", etc) and my dad smokes weed with my sister sometimes.

 

[kevm3]

I'm 20 myself, and have no interest in moving out at the moment. Personally, I want to be fully prepared before I go out on my own. I want a hefty amount of money in my savings, a job that will keep me financially stable (which I'm crossing my fingers that I get one that I signed up for), and a car (which I still need to get).

It's weird because a lot of people are telling me to move out all the time. Not sure where this "once your 18 you need to get out" way of thinking came from. If I moved out in my current state, I'd be struggling like no other. Nothing worst then going back to my parents house with nothing because I couldn't handle myself. I'd be disappointed in myself, and they would too.

I'm pretty happy living with my family. They don't annoy me, and they are great company. It's also nice not to be paying bills or rent either of course. I think at my current state, I'll be 23-25 before I move out. Which I don't think is too bad.

You're making the right decision. Save a ton of money, pay off all of your school loans if you have any and enter the world relatively debt free. We simply don't have the sort of economy or stability like we used to. It's much better to enter the playing field with money in your pocket and no debt on your back.

 

[Wreav]

I don't think anyone is making the argument that people with severe mental health issues should leave their parents home at a young age if they can't handle it.

This. This discussion isn't about people with mental issues. Next door neighbor back home has a 45 year old with mental issues living with them, and will until they die. They've tried to send her into the world 10 times, and she comes back worse every time. She should have never left.

 

[ZackieChan]

This. This discussion isn't about people with mental issues. Next door neighbor back home has a 45 year old with mental issues living with them, and will until they die. They've tried to send her into the world 10 times, and she comes back worse every time. She should have never left.

I'd go so far as to say that these arguments don't apply to many people on the margins - of course there are plenty who are legitimately held back in life due to circumstances. But using that as an excuse for all (including those in the large middle ground who can certainly make changes to their lives) people to not grow up and make their own way in life, as many here do, is daft.

If you have the time and the ability to access and discuss things on GAF, then you have the means to learn new skills and do something to change your situation. But it's easier to dismiss that as "bootstraps" and continue to simply complain about societal problems.

 

[Angelus Errare]

if that makes you feel better online, that's fine. us dummies are the 1% running the real world though. /shrug

You have time to post on NeoGAF. You're not running shit or 1%.

 

[brianjones]

Yes and no. If you're working retail/fast food through your teens and early 20's, I respect that. If you're still in that same entry level position in your late 20's early 30's and beyond, you've failed. You've become content with your easy breezy lifestyle, you have very little responsibility at work, then you come home to your parents house where you have little/no responsibilities except maybe doing your own laundry and washing dishes. That's a failure IMO.

where are you going with this argument tho?

you just want people to admit they're failures or what?

 

[ZackieChan]

where are you going with this argument tho?

you just want people to admit they're failures or what?

I'd like to see more people make some affirmative moves to change their situations.

 

[Wreav]

You have time to post on NeoGAF. You're not running shit or 1%.

In general, the more successful you are, the more time you have.

 

[Angelus Errare]

In general, the more successful you are, the more time you have.

Not really.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

In general, the more successful you are, the more time you have.

Wtf is this shit?

 

[Weevilone]

Not really.

It's a pretty big stretch to say that 1%ers don't have any free time.

 

[Wreav]

Work smarter, not harder. Get subordinates to do the dirty work. Topic for another thread, though, let's get these guys out of their mom's houses first.

 

[Crash Station]

If you have the time and the ability to access and discuss things on GAF, then you have the means to learn new skills and do something to change your situation. But it's easier to dismiss that as "bootstraps" and continue to simply complain about societal problems.

Mental illness is much broader than just not having the mental capabilities to post on a messageboard. You can be a confident and concise person online, but have major agoraphobia in face to face interactions that prevent you from straight-up leaving the house.

And that's before we get into physical issues. Can't remember his name, but there's a quadriplegic on gaf.

In general, the more successful you are, the more time you have.

Only if you're living on passive income after already having done something that made you a lot of money, like a retired author or Notch.

Or you're a tenured college professor in your 40s/50s that only works 2 days a week but still gets 100k+ a year.

 

[Tesseract]

Yes and no. If you're working retail/fast food through your teens and early 20's, I respect that. If you're still in that same entry level position in your late 20's early 30's and beyond, you've failed. You've become content with your easy breezy lifestyle, you have very little responsibility at work, then you come home to your parents house where you have little/no responsibilities except maybe doing your own laundry and washing dishes. That's a failure IMO.

Man, this is coming from the deepest, darkest parts of your ego

 

[kinggroin]

If you have a stable job, and money would be a little tight, I still recommend doing it. Rent though.

 

[Symphonia]

Yes and no. If you're working retail/fast food through your teens and early 20's, I respect that. If you're still in that same entry level position in your late 20's early 30's and beyond, you've failed. You've become content with your easy breezy lifestyle, you have very little responsibility at work, then you come home to your parents house where you have little/no responsibilities except maybe doing your own laundry and washing dishes. That's a failure IMO.

.

 

[VASPER]

Work smarter, not harder. Get subordinates to do the dirty work. Topic for another thread, though, let's get these guys out of their mom's houses first.

What if I want all the money and can do the work? Please just shhh for now.

 

[BinaryPork2737]

Work smarter, not harder. Get subordinates to do the dirty work. Topic for another thread, though, let's get these guys out of their mom's houses first.

That kind of thinking begets inefficiency, so congrats to contributing to the ruination of your company's production possibility frontier, I guess.

You could learn a thing or two from Ben Franklin's autobiography, which explains how he was able to combine intelligence with hard work to be truly successful and productive (among other things).

 

[Plum]

Work smarter, not harder. Get subordinates to do the dirty work. Topic for another thread, though, let's get these guys out of their mom's houses first.

Wait, so what if you're the subordinate? How do you "work smarter" when people higher up who also want to "work smarter" are making you work harder?

 

[ZackieChan]

Mental illness is much broader than just not having the mental capabilities to post on a messageboard. You can be a confident and concise person online, but have major agoraphobia in face to face interactions that prevent you from straight-up leaving the house.

And that's before we get into physical issues. Can't remember his name, but there's a quadriplegic on gaf.



Only if you're living on passive income after already having done something that made you a lot of money, like a retired author or Notch.

Or you're a tenured college professor in your 40s/50s that only works 2 days a week but still gets 100k+ a year.

1) I and others specifically addressed mental health issues before. You're just ignoring that now.

2) So you can only be successful and have time to browse GAF if you're Notch or a tenured professor? You have no idea what you're talking about, man.

 

[Crash Station]

2) So you can only be successful and have time to browse GAF if you're Notch or a tenured professor? You have no idea what you're talking about, man.

I wasn't taking issue with the having time to post on gaf part, I was taking issue with the "more successful=less work" part.

 

[Wreav]

That kind of thinking begets inefficiency

Overstretching a limited workforce and multitasking too many projects and responsibilities introduces far more inefficiency.

And I don't think I'll be taking any advice for my 21st century scenarios from Ben Franklin, god bless his rotund soul. If I need some pointers on how to fuck as many broads as possible while playing diplomat, I'll give it a read.

 

[TheSeks]

Forgetting Miles, because honestly he's a lost cause and not worth our attention any longer, I think another factor affecting these under 30s is the fact that they were one of the first generations to be raised under the assumption that they could go to school and get any degree and "be whatever they want to be".

This is a message that has been force fed to our generation at every turn, only to find out that your theater arts degree is completely useless in a world that is increasing tech focused, and one that thanks to automation, is running a leaner workforce than ever.

Now you have kids coming out of school with worthless degrees, thinking the world is set against them because that's just how the system is, when in reality, they didn't apply themselves hard enough or they chose their career path foolishly.

Also for whatever reason, there's nearly zero focus on trade and vocational jobs. The world needs plumbers, but these soft kids that have lived in relative comfort their whole lives don't want to get their hands dirty.

That's been the case since the 60's. Why do you think Mike Rowe (who most of GAF apparently hates) has been railing for folks to go into those jobs? The problem is, they aren't very desirable despite the demand being there because people don't see themselves as those jobs as you said.

As for your second paragraph, a coming tech bubble burst is soon approaching (IMO). Just like Lawyers of yesteryear, people are going to be in for a rude awakening when those tech degrees don't guarantee a job/career for them.

 

[BodiesWithoutOrgans]

I'm from Ireland

My brother & I both live at home and love it
We pay bills, rent etc all that stuff

Money leftover it's spent of getting nice things, savings in the bank and sending the parents of holidays 3-4 times a year

They are off for 3 weeks in April and we payed 1sr classes for everything they deserve it

Why would I pay rent when I can spend my money on my loved ones

 

[Foffy]

That's been the case since the 60's. Why do you think Mike Rowe (who most of GAF apparently hates) has been railing for folks to go into those jobs? The problem is, they aren't very desirable despite the demand being there because people don't see themselves as those jobs as you said.

As for your second paragraph, a coming tech bubble burst is soon approaching (IMO). Just like Lawyers of yesteryear, people are going to be in for a rude awakening when those tech degrees don't guarantee a job/career for them.

The fuck? I can get criticism for Rowe's potential bootstrapping philosophy, but what he's said about work in general is typically on point.

GAF has once again disappointed me.

 

[trixx]

A lot more than that probably :/

Even mediocre 1 bedroom ones I was looking at in Scarborough were near 300k.

yeah you're right. What the heck, damn... The 100-200k ones suck. Actually the ones I had in mind are near 400k pass

 

[TheDanger]

living on your own is a great way to start finding yourself.

 

[The Hermit]

so accoding to gaf basically if you still live with the parets in the 30s you have failed life

 

[H.Protagonist]

so accoding to gaf basically if you still live with the parets in the 30s you have failed life

Well, there are plenty of situations where it's entirely understandable, but for healthy people with jobs it absolutely seems like a failure to launch, at least. Some families are fine with the arrangement, and to each their own, but I don't find the timidity or reluctance to face any kind of hardship/struggle a particularly admirable one. No shame in coming back home if you get out there and try, but to not give it a go at all because you might have to share an apartment with strangers, you might have to have a budget, you might have to go without the nicer things (booze, recreation, etc.) for a bit is just sad, IMO.

 

[Tevious]

I didn't move out until I was 28, because of the cost. I had to move back in for nearly a year when I was unemployed, but I'm back out again. I'm in Korea now and many people don't move out until they get married if even then, so I got nothing to be embarrased about here.

 

[HeySeuss]

so accoding to gaf basically if you still live with the parets in the 30s you have failed life

Unless it is cultural or you have some health related roadblock (you or another family member that you have to care for) preventing you from breaking away, this really isn't an uncommon viewpoint to have.

 

[I'm an expert]

I didn't move out until I was 28, because of the cost. I had to move back in for nearly a year when I was unemployed, but I'm back out again. I'm in Korea now and many people don't move out until they get married if even then, so I got nothing to be embarrased about here.

Can you tell us exactly what your education/career trajectory was, why you were unemployed, and what exactly you do in Korea now (hint hint).

 

[dEvAnGeL]

I moved out when i was 17 to a new country lol, barely knew any English and everything was strange for me, with time things settle in, I believe that if you don't create the need you'll never feel the responsibility to move forward