• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Brazil is in the Middle of a f***** Outrage right now

Status
Not open for further replies.
"Best" English language reporting I've found so far:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/17/release-tapped-phone-calls-lula-rousseff-deepens-brazil-chaos

NYT is hopefully preparing something more in depth, current coverage is a bit scant. We have an intern starting from Sao Paolo (via USC) in a few weeks, will be interesting to hear if he has any background/opinions on the matter.

It's amusing to see the old 'related content' on the Guardian, though. "Brazil wins with Dilma Rousseff." "Dilma Rousseff and the magic of Lula."
 
Honestly, seeing how corrupt are the governments of Latin America, this doesn't surprise me a little bit. These corrupt politicians will always find ways to protect themselves.

But hopefully something changes for the good in Brazil. It is quite tiresome how they always get rich and insult the people and then get away with it.
 
Shredderi said:
I'm actually a little surprised how obviously blatant corrupt world leaders aren't just assassinated more often. I know if I was an obviously heavily corrupt president in a country with a lot people I would be scared everyday for my life.
Click to expand...

And become a martyr? No opposition would go for assassination because of that.
 
BriareosGAF said:
It's amusing to see the old 'related content' on the Guardian, though. "Brazil wins with Dilma Rousseff." "Dilma Rousseff and the magic of Lula."
Click to expand...

Most leftist movements and newspapers -specially those from the more progressive parts of the spectrum- fully embraced Lula and Dilma on account of Brazil's staggering growth, fully ignoring that the country was riding a bubble and that much of its rise could be explained by Lula being bullish on oil production.

They were very popular for a while and with reason: they were socially progressive, the economy seemed strong and their political discourse was relatively refreshing. After so many years of stereotypical Latin American politics, they seemed like the real deal (more Lula than Dilma, TBH). Their fall from grace has left a lot of egged faces across the world.
 
Shredderi said:
I'm actually a little surprised how obviously blatant corrupt world leaders aren't just assassinated more often. I know if I was an obviously heavily corrupt president in a country with a lot people I would be scared everyday for my life.
Click to expand...

If the justice system fails to act in cases like this violence is the logical recourse.
 
Funky Papa said:
Most leftist movements and newspapers -specially those from the more progressive parts of the spectrum- fully embraced Lula and Dilma on account of Brazil's staggering growth, fully ignoring that the country was riding a bubble and that much of its rise could be explained by Lula being bullish on oil production.

They were very popular for a while and with reason: they were socially progressive, the economy seemed strong and their political discourse was relatively refreshing. After so many years of stereotypical Latin American politics, they seemed like the real deal (more Lula than Dilma, TBH). Their fall from grace has left a lot of egged faces across the world.
Click to expand...
That's pretty much accurate. Good to see people outside Brazil know the truth about this. Lula and Rousseff were way overestimated by world media.
 
lmao, there were chants to arrest the federal judge during the event where Lula was officialized as a minister. They obviously rehearsed the specific chants for every part of Dilma's speech, it's surreal.
 
Funky Papa said:
Most leftist movements and newspapers -specially those from the more progressive parts of the spectrum- fully embraced Lula and Dilma on account of Brazil's staggering growth, fully ignoring that the country was riding a bubble and that much of its rise could be explained by Lula being bullish on oil production.

They were very popular for a while and with reason: they were socially progressive, the economy seemed strong and their political discourse was relatively refreshing. After so many years of stereotypical Latin American politics, they seemed like the real deal (more Lula than Dilma, TBH). Their fall from grace has left a lot of egged faces across the world.
Click to expand...

Brazil only became a net exporter of oil in 2011-2012.

Economy also started crashing all the way back before oil prices started tanking.

Fwiw, exports are pretty diversified, if, as always, way the fuck too focused on raw materials. Ain't no changing that without pissing off all the agricultural powerhouses, tho.
Brazil_Export_Treemap.jpg
Click to expand...
Then there's the stupid nonsense that was never solved, like how it imports more refined oil than it exports crude
i_am_ben said:
was it even legal for the judge to release the tapes?
Click to expand...

Opinions diverge.
 
Mimosa97 said:
What's in the tapes ?
Click to expand...
There are lots of conversations in tape, but the ones that got attention involve Lula and Dilma talking about his nomination to Ministry, where she says he should "only use it when necessary". Others conversations indicate Lula's intention of influencing the decisions of Supreme Justice ministries regarding his investigation case.
There are also conversations where he wildly curses and shits on important institutions and politicians, like "coward" and "assholes".
 
Coriolanus said:
Brazil only became a net exporter of oil in 2011-2012.

Economy also started crashing all the way back before oil prices started tanking.

Fwiw, exports are pretty diversified, if, as always, way the fuck too focused on raw materials. Ain't no changing that without pissing off all the agricultural powerhouses, tho.

Then there's the stupid nonsense that was never solved, like how it imports more refined oil than it exports crude


Opinions diverge.
Click to expand...
I remember reading an article about how Lula's focus on oil production (not necesarily for export) greatly helped to boost the economy in rather unsustainable ways. It was less about the direct impact of its sales and more about everything that came with the oil economy (such as the housing bubble, which IIRC was tied to it in a number of ways). I'll try to dig it out.
 
Here are some excerpts of the recorded conversations released yesterday, translated by me:

Conversation between Lula and Dilma said:
Dilma: Yeah, that's it.

Lula: We have a completely coward Supreme Court, we have a completely coward Superior Court of Justice, we have a completely coward [political] party, even in recent times when PT and PC do B* have awaken and started to fight. We have a fucked up president in the Assembly, we have a fucked up president in the Senate, a bunch of parlamientary are threatned... You know, and everybody is just sitting there thinking that some miracle will happen and everybody will escape unscathered!

Dilma: Yeah...

Lula: I sincerely- What I'm sincerely scared with is the Republic of Curitiba.**
Click to expand...

* Those are political parties in Brazil that historically have fought in favor of better working conditions. Lula's affilliated to PT.

** Curitiba is the city where investigations by federal judge Sergio Moro are being conducted.


Conversation between Lula and Dilma discussing the Chief-in-Staff nomination said:
Dilma: Hello.

Lula: Hello.

D: Lula, let me tell you something.

L: Say it, my dear.

D: Here's the deal, I'm sending you Bessias along with the paper, just so we have it. But only used it in case you really need it. It's the nomination term.

L: Yeah, alright.

D: That's all, just wait there, he will arrive there in a bit.

L: Alright, I'll be here waiting. Alright.

D: Alright? Bye.

L: Bye, my dear.
Click to expand...

From this conversation, we believe Lula was only nominated to escape the Judicial Court. The government refuse these claims.

These and a lot more, including Lula's conversations with the previous Chief-in-Staff before his nomination, can be heard in their original form on this link: http://m.folha.uol.com.br/poder/201...onversas-de-lula-reveladas-na-lava-jato.shtml
 
i_am_ben said:
was it even legal for the judge to release the tapes?
Click to expand...
Releasing the investigation and the tapes was legal. Some of the tapes, especially the one between Lula and Dilma, were illegal since he had already removed the judicial order a few hours before it. Tecnically the conversation was illegally recorded, despite the incriminating evidence.

Never mind that though since the goverment can spin any evidence in any way they want.
 
Funky Papa said:
I remember reading an article about how Lula's focus on oil production (not necesarily for export) greatly helped to boost the economy in rather unsustainable ways. It was less about the direct impact of its sales and more about everything that came with the oil economy (such as the housing bubble, which IIRC was tied to it in a number of ways). I'll try to dig it out.
Click to expand...

That was most likely related to the pre-election period, back when oil was historically high outside the country but kept at artificially low prices inside it. Which yeah, is an aggressive subsidy.

Now they trying the exact opposite, oil prices kept artificially high to rebuild cred during a recession, which obv only made problems worse.

His drive on oil production was mainly because we were heavily dependant on foreign oil. Which wouldve hit us catastrophically during the high, obv.

Country of this size, main method of transportation is shitty paved roads. God fucking damn it is that stupid. All the alternatives been mostly left to rot in the last 40 years.
 
JJD said:
Coup d'état??????? LMAO! You're on a roll mister.

How can a government (democratically elected by the way) perform a coup...against itself?

And how can a nomination be considered a coup? I think the word you're looking for is "obstruction of justice" isn't it? But how can it be obstruction if the person in question will still be judged, except at a hierarchical superior court?

Geez...I guess anything goes if you guys overthrown the government right?
Click to expand...
So you're saying that Vargas wasn't a dictator and that the Estado Novo wasn't an dictatorship established by an coup d'état? It was very much that, combined with ultranationalist and fascist ideals and heavily influenced by the nazi regime.

And yes, as a law student, I'm pretty sure that nominating someone so that he can avoid being judged and investigated by a specific judge fits very well into the definition of obstruction of justice. That's actually quite grave; despite the fact that he is still going to be investigated by a hierarchical superior institution.
 
Platy trying to spin these in favour of the government is just too funny.

Btw the judge just suspended Lula's nomination. Lol plot twist incoming.
 
Platy said:
LITERALY Lula saying that he is not acepting to be a ministry to escape anything
Click to expand...

What? No. Follow the post bellow.

KeyChainDude said:
Here are some excerpts of the recorded conversations released yesterday, translated by me:



* Those are political parties in Brazil that historicay have fought in favor of better working conditions. Lula's affilliated to PT.

** Curitiba is the city where investigations by federal judge Sergio Moro are being conducted.




From this conversation, we believe Lula was only nominated to escape the Judicial Court. The government refuse these claims.

These and a lot more, including Lula's conversations with the previous Chief-in-Staff before his nomination, can be heard in their original form on this link: http://m.folha.uol.com.br/poder/201...onversas-de-lula-reveladas-na-lava-jato.shtml
Click to expand...
 
Platy said:
LITERALY Lula saying that he is not acepting to be a ministry to escape anything
Click to expand...

You forgot to mention Lula also says he knows he is being wiretaped.

You should also say that even though he knows he is, he's still caught saying so much shit that it clearly shows he took the job just to run from judge Moro.

EDIT - Also there is a conversation between the president of PT and the then Minister of Civil House Wagner where they clearly talk about the fear of Lula being arrested and how everybody in the government was trying to convince Lula to take the job.

Well, he did. And now a judge in Brazil has stopped the nomination.

The fight continues.
 
Sapientas said:
And yes, as a law student, I'm pretty sure that nominating someone so that he can avoid being judged and investigated by a specific judge fits very well into the definition of obstruction of justice. That's actually quite grave; despite the fact that he is still going to be investigated by a hierarchical superior institution.
Click to expand...

Then you should know that our penal code has no crime by that name, nor does it carry any definition of what, exactly, that would entail.

What article are you thinking of?
 
Sapientas said:
There are lots of conversations in tape, but the ones that got attention involve Lula and Dilma talking about his nomination to Ministry, where she says he should "only use it when necessary". Others conversations indicate Lula's intention of influencing the decisions of Supreme Justice ministries regarding his investigation case.
There are also conversations where he wildly curses and shits on important institutions and politicians, like "coward" and "assholes".
Click to expand...

Thanks

I've always asked myself how come we very rarely get leaked conversations from our politicians. It's so easy to tape someone and then leak it yet it never happens. Ugh.
 
Every so often the common people realize that quantity is a quality in its own right. It's a little scary but also nice to see. Time to take back your country.
 
Yeah, as some fellow gaffers just stated, Lula's nomination term as Chief-in-Staff has just been suspended by a federal judge. He can still appeal the decision, but for now the fight continues, it's a fucking war between the Judicial, Legislative and Executive powers.
 
And now a judge stopped Lula becoming a minister.... Good times are coming. It seems Brazil has finally stop looking the other way from the shit that Dilma is doing through the years.
 
KeyChainDude said:
Yeah, as some fellow gaffers just stated, Lula's nomination term as Chief-in-Staff has just been suspended by a federal judge. He can still appeal the decision, but for now the fight continues, it's a fucking war between the Judicial, Legislative and Executive powers.
Click to expand...

I'm curious, what is the relevant balance for Separation of Powers issues in Brazil. Is it somewhat similar to the US?

Are the Judiciary and the Legislature on the same page at this point in time with respect to the appointments?
 
Funky Papa said:
They were very popular for a while and with reason: they were socially progressive, the economy seemed strong and their political discourse was relatively refreshing. After so many years of stereotypical Latin American politics, they seemed like the real deal (more Lula than Dilma, TBH). Their fall from grace has left a lot of egged faces across the world.
Click to expand...

Sure. The problem of corruption in democracies is probably the most interesting element of political thought and discourse to me. I was actually just reading the LRB over breakfast and came across this section in a review of Machiavelli:
The fragility of political virtue had become a commonplace in republican thought. In On the Nature of Political Parties (1721), John Trenchard remarks that ‘Machiavel tells us, that no government can long subsist, but by recurring often to its first principles; but this can never be done while men live at ease and in luxury; for then they cannot be persuaded to see distant dangers, of which they feel no part.’ The idea that the ease bred of commercial growth may corrode the republic’s foundations recurs in other 18th-century writers. Adam Ferguson notes in the Essay on the History of Civil Society that ‘luxury may serve to corrupt democratical states, by introducing a species of monarchical subordination’ and ‘infecting all orders of men, with equal venality, servility, and cowardice’. Luxury makes people servile for several reasons. One was voiced by Rousseau in the Discourse on the Origin of Inequality: material abundance becomes a mark of status and so casts down the poor. Another is that commercialism excites a servile pandering to buyers. In 1766 the Charleston Tribune noted that ‘luxury naturally creates want, and that want, whether artificial or real, has a tendency to make men venal … [These] are truths that are too evident to be disputed. Luxury therefore leads to Corruption; and whoever encourages great luxury in a free state must be a bad citizen.’ This Machiavellian argument offers little succour to republicans who want the state to extend no further than enforcing the rules of the casino.
Click to expand...

Situation re: oil income reminds me of Alaska's problems funding the state's education department. It's like Norway doesn't exist :/.
 
Even though quoting the American Declaration of Independence as well as National Treasure may be lame I still think this applies

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security
Click to expand...

Beautiful writing too
 
Coriolanus said:
Then you should know that our penal code has no crime by that name, nor does it carry any definition of what, exactly, that would entail.

What article are you thinking of?
Click to expand...


Its just a resposability crime by Dilma, (85 of the constitution), but one that people may call obstruction of justice (although thats not the real name)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

RTINGS.com is now a Paywalled Service
2
61
244
Signalis replied
Malcolm in the Middle: Life's Still Unfair | Official Teaser | TV Mini Series | 2026
10
441
Paperboy replied
Ashley Buzzard is now a confirmed killer
19
471
KyoZz replied
What is the easiest way to retire early now?
2
52
499
jason10mm replied
After all these years, I took the leap, middle-age is calling me, it's finally time to embrace...
21
468
NeverYouMind replied
Top Bottom