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[Coriolanus]

Pick any other stat you wish.

Employment Deltas, inflation, you name it.

The country is currently going through a stagflation period, well known around the world as the worst possible outcome for an economy.

Ok. I pick inflation.

 

[Road of Ease]

For non-brazilians who want to know more, a good article by Glenn Greenwald.

This paragraph sums everything, but there's way more on the actual link:

Corruption among Brazil’s political class — including the top levels of the PT — is real and substantial. But Brazil’s plutocrats, their media, and the upper and middle classes are glaringly exploiting this corruption scandal to achieve what they have failed for years to accomplish democratically: the removal of PT from power.

 

[hawk2025]

Ok. I pick inflation.

Excellent.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/brazil-inflation-reaches-highest-level-in-13-years-1452252895


Brazil has reached the highest inflation levels of the past 13 years. With record NEGATIVE growth.

 

[Coriolanus]

Excellent.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/brazil-inflation-reaches-highest-level-in-13-years-1452252895


Brazil has reached the highest inflation levels of the past 13 years. With record NEGATIVE growth.

Of the past 13 years means that during the FHC years we had higher inflation.

Oops.

Wanna try again with unemployment?

Seriously, don't try to fuck with single stats.

 

[hawk2025]

Of the past 13 years means that during the FHC years we had higher inflation.

Oops.

Wanna try again with unemployment?

Seriously, don't try to fuck with single stats.

You cannot be serious right now.

You are not using this misleading and gross argument of comparing the FHC government, that started under HYPERINFLATION and established our current inflation targeting system. Right? At which point did I try to "fuck with single stats"? My argument from the beginning is that the FULL situation of the country shows a clear and massive deterioration on the numbers across the board. This is unequivocally true.

The relevant comparison is the impact of the government on the previous stats, not their absolute levels. This is an exceedingly simple point.

Brazil's real income has decreased to 2008 levels. We've gone back 8 years to the past in only 3. We are going BACKWARDS.

 

[Coriolanus]

I suggest you go back and read exactly what i'm arguing for, since you've evidently missed it.

 

[hawk2025]

I suggest you go back and read exactly what i'm arguing for, since you've evidently missed it.

Your point was that focusing on GDP in this situation was misleading (or else, why bring it up?).

But it's not. The negative GDP growth Brazil is facing is a simple, clear, relevant stat that directly represents the deterioration of all other statistics in the country. Bizarrely, even inflation.

In Sarney's case, adding context like hyperinflation enriches the analysis and clarifies what was actually going on. In Dilma's case, adding context like increasing inflation and increasing unemployment under negative GDP growth only further highlights the negative scenario. Your original post was, at best, very misleading. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it wasn't disingenuous, however, as I had previously assumed; So, apologies about that.

My point was that focussing on a single stat can very easily paint an incoherent picture.

Perfectly exemplified by Sarney and his gdp numbers.

If you need to add more elements to paint a coherent picture of any specific period, then you agree with my initial point that focussing on a single stat is not enough.

I do agree, totally!

But in this case, adding more (important!) information makes it look even worse. That was my point, and I misjudged yours I am genuinely sorry



Edits, edits, edits, so many edits.

 

[Coriolanus]

Your point was that focusing on GDP in this situation was misleading (or else, why bring it up?).

But it's not. The negative GDP growth Brazil is facing is a simple, clear, relevant stat that directly represents the deterioration of all other statistics in the country. Bizarrely, even inflation.

My point was that focussing on a single stat can very easily paint an incoherent picture.

Perfectly exemplified by Sarney and his gdp numbers.

If you need to add more elements to paint a coherent picture of any specific period, then you agree with my initial point that focussing on a single stat is not enough.

Since i've never argued that the current scenario isn't negative, i don't particularly care for the bits when you try to argue that it is, in fact, negative. That was never contested.

 

[Ganzlinger]

For non-brazilians who want to know more, a good article by Glenn Greenwald.

This paragraph sums everything, but there's way more on the actual link:

No. To all non-brazilians this Greenwald guy is completely biased. Just see post n. 175 of this thread.

PT is the most anti-democratic party to ever reach the government. They do everything to maintain themselves in power, like this very nomination. They are completely immoral, they take advantage of social programs to build a paternalist state, they manipulate people to belive in conspiracy, they never admit to be wrong and always put the blame on media and press (which they always wanted to 'regulate'), they are responsible for the worst corruption scandal of this country and the worst economic crisis of the last 20 years. People accusing these legit manifestations of Brazilian people to not represent the country are blind.

Look how many supporters the defenders of government gathered (and they say they are defending democracy against a coup d'etat controlled by the upper classes and media):

I ask you, in which side the real people are?

We use the green-yellow, this country's colors agains the red of PT.

 

[Coriolanus]

PT is the most anti-democratic party to ever reach the government.

No, ARENA still has the crown there.

Will probably keep it for the foreseeable future, too.

 

[dan2026]

For non-brazilians who want to know more, a good article by Glenn Greenwald.

This paragraph sums everything, but there's way more on the actual link:

I read this article and I feel I don't even know who the good guys are in all of this.
Everyone seems like the bad guy.

 

[Road of Ease]

I read this article and I feel I don't even know who the good guys are in all of this.
Everyone seems like the bad guy.

Pretty much. I'm brazilian and I feel the same way.

ETA: on that note, here's another great text from Eliane Brum about that exact feeling.

 

[Ganzlinger]

No, ARENA still has the crown there.

Will probably keep it for the foreseeable future, too.

Fair enough.

Let's say after dictatorship then.

 

[Walpurgis]

Actually I don't, and this is what is pissing me off the most. I have no idea why these news aren't getting international coverage, this is HUGE. It's the biggest movement in Brazil's history already!

I just checked The Guardian and they appear to be covering it pretty well. No Vice docs though but I expect those to come soon now that this has gotten attention in the world media.

I think you covered the situation pretty well in your OP but here is The Guardian's summary of the events to supplement things.

I bolded the crazy stuff and stuff that was new to me. Also, I added Dilma's name everywhere because I think it is easier to read that way (not familiar with the name Rousseff ).

What’s the story?

Tens of thousands of Brazilians took to the streets on Wednesday to protest against the government, as a gathering corruption scandal threatened to engulf the president and her predecessor.

Earlier Dilma Rousseff appointed Luiz Inácio “Lula” da Silva as her chief of staff, in what was widely seen by her critics as an attempt to shield him from prosecution over alleged corruption and money-laundering. Under Brazilian law, only the supreme court can authorise the investigation, imprisonment and trial of cabinet members.

Hours after Lula’s appointment, a judge investigating a corruption scandal at the state-run oil company Petrobras released a number of secretly taped phone calls between Lula and [Dilma] Rousseff, which appeared to suggest that the job offer had indeed been made to protect the former president.

The demonstrations are only the latest in a swelling tide of unrest. On Sunday an estimated 3 million people joined rallies across the country in protest at [Dilma] Rousseff’s beleaguered government, which is also grappling with Brazil’s worst recession in a century.

Who are the key players?

[Dilma] Rousseff, an economist and former socialist activist who was imprisoned during Brazil’s military dictatorship, was elected as president in 2011. She had previously acted as chief of staff to Lula for part of his eight-year presidency, and the two have remained close political allies.

[Dilma] Rousseff has never attained the huge popularity that her predecessor commanded, and has been fighting off potential impeachment proceedings over alleged fiscal mismanagement in office. The supreme electoral court has been looking into possible campaign funding irregularities that could end up annulling her 2014 re-election.

Lula, as he is universally known in Brazil, is a former union leader who was named the world’s most popular politician when he left office in 2011. But the sprawling Petrobras scandal, in which dozens of prominent politicians have been caught up, threatened to engulf him, too, and this month his home was raided after allegations that he received political favours from companies now under investigation. The former president accuses prosecutors of launching a politically motivated campaign against him.

What is the Petrobras scandal?

In a two-year investigation known as Operation Carwash, prosecutors have uncovered what they say is a huge kickback and bribery scheme at the oil giant, which has become the biggest corruption scandal in Brazil’s history.

They allege that senior figures at Petrobras conspired with construction companies to inflate the value of contracts. Much of the extra revenue was allegedly funnelled to political parties, including Lula and Rousseff’s leftwing Workers’ party, to fund election campaigns.

Dozens of politicians and executives have been caught up in the scandal, including Marcelo Odebrecht, a former head of South America’s largest construction firm, who this month was jailed for 19 years for bribery and money-laundering in relation to a system of kickbacks that his company allegedly paid to senior Petrobras executives.

Why is it so important?

Brazil’s economy shrank by 3.7% last year, and forecasts for 2016 are similarly gloomy. The uncertain state of its largest oil company and the construction companies caught up in the scandal will not help.

The scandal also offers a further threat to the presidency of [Dilma] Rousseff, who initially avoided being personally touched by the Petrobras allegations despite having been chair of Petrobras from 2003-10, when much of the corruption is alleged to have taken place.

It threatens to shake much of Brazil’s political class; as well as [Dilma] Rousseff and Lula, Brazil’s vice-president, the speaker of the house, the president of the senate and the main opposition leader have all been accused of involvement.

I can't believe the leader of the opposition was conspiring with the ruling party. And wow at Dilma being freaking chair of the oil company for 7 years.

Also, god damn at that 19 years for the head of that construction firm. Something like that would never happen in the U.S. This gives me hope that Dilma, Lula and friends will actually see justice.

 

[Maintenance]

From today's protest, pro-government.

Note the US flag in the right side of the picture (left hand).

 

[Metra]

Some screens from today's pro-government protests:

São Paulo:

João Pessoa:

Natal:

Salvador:

A lot of people, but less than what we saw at recent anti-government protests. Lula's expected to show up at São Paulo's protest, tonight.

 

[Youta Mottenai]

For non-brazilians who want to know more, a good article by Glenn Greenwald.

This paragraph sums everything, but there's way more on the actual link:

Yep, if you are fan of conspiracy theories. Otherwise it was already put down several times in this very thread.

 

[ethomaz]

Today manifestation pro-government had more people than yesterday cons-government.

Which side are right?

Some screens from today's pro-government protests:

São Paulo:


João Pessoa:


Natal:


Salvador:


A lot of people, but less than what we saw at recent anti-government protests. Lula's expected to show up at São Paulo's protest, tonight.

Today had more people the news are telling... at least in São Paulo looks to have double people today than previous days.

 

[Maintenance]

Today manifestation pro-government had more people than yesterday cons-government.

Which side are right?

Conveniently forgetting Sunday, are you not?

Another gem from today:

 

[Massa]

For non-brazilians who want to know more, a good article by Glenn Greenwald.

This paragraph sums everything, but there's way more on the actual link:

Ctrl+F Delcídio - 0 results found.
Ctrl+F fiscal - 0 results found.

That article is intellectually dishonest.

Yes, PT is corrupt to the bone, and of course, that's not the only reason they're falling. They're falling because they failed at economy and politics. Badly.

Impeachment is in the constitution and the congress who will vote her out was also democratically elected by the people. That's democracy.

 

[Mr. Jimmy]

Man we are truly living some intense times. Brazil-Gaf keep on fighting, as peacefully as you can, hope for the future to come to be brighter.

 

[hawk2025]

Let's talk about Greenwald in Brazil, then.


This is what he tweeted yesterday, after being questioned on whether or not the audio recordings released were of public interest, much like during the Wikileaks case:

Greenwald addresses the wife of Judge Moro mentioned in this thread.

As evidence, he is citing Brasil247, a blog proven to be *directly* paid for by the government to post propaganda:

http://spotniks.com/tudo-que-voce-precisa-saber-sobre-como-o-governo-sustenta-blogs-na-internet/


Worse, he is citing a rumor that the Judge's wife works for the opposing party as a lawyer on retainer; A rumor that was proven false almost a week ago.



And he wants to talk about media bias?

Greenwald is a disgusting hypocrite.

 

[Youta Mottenai]

Conveniently forgetting Sunday, are you?

Another gem from today:

Let's talk about Greenwald in Brazil, then.


This is what he tweeted yesterday, after being questioned on whether or not the audio recordings released were of public interest, much like during the Wikileaks case:

Greenwald addresses the wife of Judge Moro mentioned in this thread.

As evidence, he is citing Brasil247, a blog proven to be *directly* paid for by the government to post propaganda:

http://spotniks.com/tudo-que-voce-precisa-saber-sobre-como-o-governo-sustenta-blogs-na-internet/


Worse, he is citing a rumor that the Judge's wife works for the opposing party as a lawyer on retainer; A rumor that was proven false almost a week ago.



And he wants to talk about media bias?

Greenwald is a disgusting hypocrite.

I don't understand their insistence with the "coup" bs.
How can a procedure in the freaking constitution, authorized by the Supreme Court, voted in the Congress and analysed in the Senate, be a coup?
As Adam Carolla would say, there are only two possibilities: stupid or liar.

 

[KeyChainDude]

I just checked The Guardian and they appear to be covering it pretty well. No Vice docs though but I expect those to come soon now that this has gotten attention in the world media.

I think you covered the situation pretty well in your OP but here is The Guardian's summary of the events to supplement things.

I bolded the crazy stuff and stuff that was new to me. Also, I added Dilma's name everywhere because I think it is easier to read that way (not familiar with the name Rousseff ).

What’s the story?


Who are the key players?


What is the Petrobras scandal?


Why is it so important?

I can't believe the leader of the opposition was conspiring with the ruling party. And wow at Dilma being freaking chair of the oil company for 7 years.

Also, god damn at that 19 years for the head of that construction firm. Something like that would never happen in the U.S. This gives me hope that Dilma, Lula and friends will actually see justice.

Very nice, thanks a lot for the sneak-peak and source! I'm really interested in seeing the global opinion on the events, most media outlets seem to think very highly of Lula. They're actually surprised he's involved in this shitstorm, even if brazilians have been watching him involved in such scandals since Mensalão in 2004.

 

[Walpurgis]

For non-brazilians who want to know more, a good article by Glenn Greenwald.

This paragraph sums everything, but there's way more on the actual link:

Brazil is the world’s fifth most populous country and eighth-largest economy.

Brazil is suffering its worst economic crisis in decades. An enormous graft scheme has hobbled the national oil company. The Zika epidemic is causing despair across the northeast. And just before the world heads to Brazil for the Summer Olympics, the government is fighting for survival, with almost every corner of the political system under the cloud of scandal.

God. Damn. I have no other words.

As Romero notes: “almost every corner of the political system under the cloud of scandal.” That includes not only Rousseff’s moderately left-wing Workers Party, or PT — which is rife with serious corruption — but also the vast majority of the centrist and right-wing political and economic factions working to destroy PT, which are drowning in at least an equal amount of criminality. In other words, PT is indeed deeply corrupt and awash in criminal scandal, but so is virtually every political faction working to undermine it and vying to seize that party’s democratically obtained power.

This appears to be true but who cares right now? There is only one ruling party so they deserve to take the brunt of this. While it is true that their replacements will be just as corrupt, they will also remember Dilma and Lula when they make backroom deals with companies. They will feel fear knowing that if the people find out, they are finished. And the people will feel empowered that they were able to force the most powerful people in the country to meet justice. I think this will backfire on political actors using this to gain power. The important thing here is the message and to set precedent. Brazilians don't want to be ruled by thieves and will not tolerate it.

Five of the members of the impeachment commission are themselves being criminally investigated as part of the corruption scandal. That includes Paulo Maluf, who faces an Interpol warrant for his arrest and has not been able to leave the country for years; he has been sentenced in France to three years in prison for money laundering. Of the 65 members of House impeachment committee, 36 currently face pending legal proceedings.

In the lower house of Congress, the leader of the impeachment movement, the evangelical extremist Eduardo Cunha, was found to have maintained multiple secret Swiss bank accounts, where he stored millions of dollars that prosecutors believe were received as bribes. He is the target of multiple active criminal investigations.

Meanwhile, Senator Aécio Neves, the leader of the Brazilian opposition who Dilma narrowly defeated in the 2014 election, has himself been implicated at least five separate times in the corruption scandal. One of the prosecutors’ newest star witnesses just accused him of accepting bribes. That witness also implicated the country’s vice president, Michel Temer, of the opposition party PMDB, who would replace Dilma if she were impeached.

This is insane but what other solution is there? To do nothing to PT because nothing has been done to the others? To let some thieves off the hook because everyone is doing it? PT needs to be removed for their crimes and their replacements need to be removed when they are found committing crimes.

The best thing for PT, at this point, is to admit fault, apologise but also use their position to call out the other thieves.

While some parties are making this a war on PT, I think in the mind of the people, it is a war on corruption (the media seems to ensure this) and once PT is gone, that war won't just quietly end. Those right wing parties have opened pandora's box and they will not be able to close it when they get into power.

I read this article and I feel I don't even know who the good guys are in all of this.
Everyone seems like the bad guy.

Basically.

 

[Mobius 1]

I feel terrible that my own country is in turmoil and I'm ignorant about it. Time to catch up.

 

[Walpurgis]

Let's talk about Greenwald in Brazil, then.


This is what he tweeted yesterday, after being questioned on whether or not the audio recordings released were of public interest, much like during the Wikileaks case:

Greenwald addresses the wife of Judge Moro mentioned in this thread.

As evidence, he is citing Brasil247, a blog proven to be *directly* paid for by the government to post propaganda:

http://spotniks.com/tudo-que-voce-precisa-saber-sobre-como-o-governo-sustenta-blogs-na-internet/


Worse, he is citing a rumor that the Judge's wife works for the opposing party as a lawyer on retainer; A rumor that was proven false almost a week ago.



And he wants to talk about media bias?

Greenwald is a disgusting hypocrite.

He's definitely exposed himself as a hypocrite and his attacks against Moro are just plain wrong. However, that article that we wrote was a good read that provided an interesting perspective on things, imo. I don't agree with him but it got me thinking of things differently.

If he's spreading misinformation though, that is unforgivable. I hope the article was free of that.

 

[hawk2025]

God. Damn. I have no other words.


This appears to be true but who cares right now? There is only one ruling party so they deserve to take the brunt of this. While it is true that their replacements will be just as corrupt, they will also remember Dilma and Lula when they make backroom deals with companies. They will feel fear knowing that if the people find out, they are finished. And the people will feel empowered that they were able to force the most powerful people in the country to meet justice. I think this will backfire on political actors using this to gain power. The important thing here is the message and to set precedent. Brazilians don't want to be ruled by thieves and will not tolerate it.


This is insane but what other solution is there? To do nothing to PT because nothing has been done to the others? To let some thieves off the hook because everyone is doing it? PT needs to be removed for their crimes and their replacements need to be removed when they are found committing crimes.

The best thing for PT, at this point, is to admit fault, apologise but also use their position to call out the other thieves.

While some parties are making this a war on PT, I think in the mind of the people, it is a war on corruption (the media seems to ensure this) and once PT is gone, that war won't just quietly end. Those right wing parties have opened pandora's box and they will not be able to close it when they get into power.


Basically.

Precisely.

We need to use this moment and an instrument for change and accountability, and to set the stage for any and all politicians, currently in power and to come. To argue that nothing should be done because others are also corrupt is preposterous.

We currently have the largest fish in the pond on the hook, and some are arguing that we should release them from the rod because we aren't currently reeling in the other thousands of other, smaller fish (even though they are in the pond, and we will get to them).

He's definitely exposed himself as a hypocrite and his attacks against Moro are just plain wrong. However, that article that we wrote was a good read that provided an interesting perspective on things, imo. I don't agree with him but it got me thinking of things differently.

If he's spreading misinformation though, that is unforgivable. I hope the article was free of that.

It paints a significantly biased, misleading picture of the media's and the protest's role in the process.

His points regarding the profile, creation, and extension of the protests is simply wrong.

However, you are right that it does point to significant and importance nuances on what's going on that we absolutely must not forget regarding the coopting of other parties of the protest and other, corrupt interests in the country. It's an important point that he marred with misinformation and blatant bias.

 

[nacimento]

Conveniently forgetting Sunday, are you?

Another gem from today:

I thought pictures from protests didn't mean anything, or only in some protests?

 

[Maintenance]

To above: So now pictures don't mean anything?

I heard some people say in this thread that the lasers were expensive. Geez, I wonder where those pro-government guys got it?

 

[Ganzlinger]

Today manifestation pro-government had more people than yesterday cons-government.

Which side are right?


Today had more people the news are telling... at least in São Paulo looks to have double people today than previous days.

A lot of people, but less than what we saw at recent anti-government protests. Lula's expected to show up at São Paulo's protest, tonight.

And those baloons have the initials of unions that have intimate relationship with PT for decades (CUT). They probably gathered a lot of these people from there alongside the MST.

There is also the fact that PT's cells throughout the country are divulgating FAKE AGENDA to create chaos and fright the poor:

I'll try to translate, this a terrorist tactic used to call people to defend the government today:

Urgent!

They will END Minha Casa, Minha Vida! (a social program that helps poor people build their own home).

They want to destroy LULA and Dilma so all the aids will be paid with interest and the installment will increase!

Whoever cant' pay, will LOSE your house.

Come DEFEND your achievementes alongside other workers.

We are not going to allow that the Sons of Workers to be EXPELLED of Universties because they study with governmental aid.

It's EVIL to take BOLSA FAMÍLIA (a social program) and leave entire families without that money!

Everything that the elite doesn't need, they will take from workers!

Day March 18 - Friday

Santos Andrade Square

6 PM

___________



THIS IS ALL BULLSHIT. The manifestations doesn't want to take out those benefits. PT want the poor to believe that. They always come up with this shit in their propaganda so people are afraid that they lose elections.

This is terrorism. They are that low and dirty. They use people's emotions like no other party ever did just to achieve their goals. You can see that they actually have tight connections with some of the richest people in the country like the investigations already proved.

 

[hawk2025]

That pamphlet has the exact same tactics and lies used against Marina.

Lies, lies, lies, and more lies on top of additional lies.


People are surprised that the protests become anti-PT on top of being anti-corruption?

When the party is currently:

- In Power
- Lying through its teeth
- Proven to be corrupt across multiple instances
- Proven to be paying media (Brasil247 and other blogs) and magazines (Carta Capital) DIRECTLY for favorable coverage
- Proven to be lying during the elections and after
- Proven to have used misappropriated funds during the campaign, with its marketer Santana currently arrested for it



And, again, currently in power -- how could the protests not become anti-PT as well?


They lie about Gilberto Gil's support:

https://www.facebook.com/gilbertogi...152332963030/1111505478894372/?type=3&theater

They have the audio version of the pamphlet above blasting the lies through loudspeakers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJN_nKhcKkc


Lies, lies, and more lies.

 

[LeonSPBR]

I read this article and I feel I don't even know who the good guys are in all of this.
Everyone seems like the bad guy.

Pretty much. The good guys in this case are the judges of Operation Lava Jato and the cops really, but they have very little power to matter. Corruption is everywhere in this country and frankly, we don't have a single person that we can trust.

 

[ethomaz]

Conveniently forgetting Sunday, are you not?

Another gem from today:

I'm sure a comparison between Friday and Thursday is way more reliable than Friday and Sunday.

Sunday is a day off from work... there are a lot more free people to manifestation lol

 

[Maintenance]

I'm sure a comparison between Friday and Thursday is way more reliable than Friday and Sunday.

Sunday is a day off from work.

You're right, because people need money to live and survive this economy, so they do it on Sundays. Not everyone can just go in the middle of the work day to a protest, not everyone is getting paid by the government or from a syndicate (CUT, etc) that can just say "let's strike and go help the government".

If you're really trying to spin that way, then I have no more words to say to you.

EDIT: Why don't the pro-government people do it on a sunday too? And I don't mean the same sunday, one week one then the other week another.

 

[Metra]

Today manifestation pro-government had more people than yesterday cons-government.

Which side are right?

Well... in my opinion, at the center of all this lies a political struggle for power. That said, there's a lot of bias involved, and I can't tell who's right. And honestly... I'm not even sure if there's a "right" side any more.

To me, ideally, the people - all the people - should unite against politicians as a whole. Make specific and clear demands, like a political system reform, for instance. But that's unrealistic at this point, I guess. We're too busy fighting each other.

 

[hawk2025]

I'm sure a comparison between Friday and Thursday is way more reliable than Friday and Sunday.

Sunday is a day off from work... there are a lot more free people to manifestation lol

 

[Maintenance]

That brings back some memories.

 

[ethomaz]

Yeap spin just because people need to work on week days here lol

Looks like the bias in this thread is strong O.O

 

[Maintenance]

Yeap spin just because people need to work on week days here lol

Looks like the bias in this thread is strong O.O

 

[ethomaz]

Well... in my opinion, at the center of all this lies a political struggle for power. That said, there's a lot of bias involved, and I can't tell who's right. And honestly... I'm not even sure if there's a "right" side any more.

To me, ideally, the people - all the people - should unite against politicians as a whole. Make specific and clear demands, like a political system reform, for instance. But that's unrealistic at this point, I guess. We're too busy fighting each other.

That is the right way to do.

The biggest issue here is what you said... both sides are right and wrong... there aren't a common objective in these protests.

The fact the protest itself are made by political strategies (both sides) shows how the people on Brasil are just blind monkeys being manipulated (I'm included).

I would love to see a real manufestation here in a common objective without any political bias but I guess it is impossible in the actual moment/scenario.

Yeap my bias lies in what side? lol

 

[Road of Ease]

This appears to be true but who cares right now?

This is insane but what other solution is there?

You`ve grasped the righteous anger that`s going on right now. But the thing about that anger is that it dismisses the due process of law and turns it into vigilante justice. Lula`s still being investigated, nothing`s been found yet, but he`s already being sentenced by everyone.

Having said that, Lula isn`t doing himself any favors in the eyes of the public by being sworn as minister to escape prison for a few more days.

It reminds me of Steven Avery`s case (from Netflix`s Making a Murderer):

*You want to believe that he`s guilty, but the police screwed up the investigation in so many ways that you find it hard to belive that;
*You want to believe that he`s innocent, but some of his attitudes and things he says makes it hard for you to believe that too.

The same thing is happening between Lula/Dilma and judge Sergio Moro, all of them are riding a thin line of legality and in the grey area when it comes to ethics. Taking Lula as a minister is within Dilma`s legal rights as president to do, but how ethical is it? And how legal is leaking a conversation with the president that was tapped after the tapping was requested to stop, like judge Moro did?

You say that in the minds of the people it`s a war on corruption. No one likes corruption, of course, not even people defending Dilma right now (hell, they aren`t even all that happy with her actions during this second term!). But if Lula and Dilma are to be investigated, tried and sentenced/impeached, it needs to be done right - or else nothing will be truly solved.

I now leave you with another Eliane Brum text that makes this point better than I ever could.

 

[hawk2025]

You`ve grasped the righteous anger that`s going on right now. But the thing about that anger is that it dismisses the due process of law and turns it into vigilante justice. Lula`s still being investigated, nothing`s been found yet, but he`s already being sentenced by everyone.

Having said that, Lula isn`t doing himself any favors in the eyes of the public by being sworn as minister to escape prison for a few more days.

It reminds me of Steven Avery`s case (from Netflix`s Making a Murderer):

*You want to believe that he`s guilty, but the police screwed up the investigation in so many ways that you find it hard to belive that;
*You want to believe that he`s innocent, but some of his attitudes and things he says makes it hard for you to believe that too.

The same thing is happening between Lula/Dilma and judge Sergio Moro, all of them are riding a thin line of legality and in the grey area when it comes to ethics. Taking Lula as a minister is within Dilma`s legal rights as president to do, but how ethical is it? And how legal is leaking a conversation with the president that was tapped after the tapping was requested to stop, like judge Moro did?

You say that in the minds of the people it`s a war on corruption. No one likes corruption, of course, not even people defending Dilma right now (hell, they aren`t even all that happy with her actions during this second term!). But if Lula and Dilma are to be investigated, tried and sentenced/impeached, it needs to be done right - or else nothing will be truly solved.

I now leave you with another Eliane Brum text that makes this point better than I ever could.

You are absolutely right, of course.

But the context is important: We are in a setting where the ex-president is, as clearly evidenced by the recordings, utilizing his influence to coerce and intimidate the Judiciary through his influence on all spheres of the government he can muster.

Moro's approach is shady, and I would like to see it thoroughly investigated and understood. He is playing the role of activist and judge at the same time.

However, again, within the context of the current power struggle and undermining of the institutions from the Executive, what do we actually do with the information we receive?

There are two separate issues here: Dealing with Moro's potential abuse of the institutions, and dealing with the Executive's, including the current and the previous president.

I'll leave with complete agreement on a point you and the article raised, though: Making Moro a hero and the hope for the country amidst all this very much misses the mark.

 

[Abilidebob]

There is also the fact that PT's cells throughout the country are divulgating FAKE AGENDA to create chaos and fright the poor:

This is the worst thing honestly. My brother worked helping the voting in 3 elections already(2010, 2012, 2014) and
EVERY
SINGLE
ONE OF THEM had lots and lots of people, saying
"Oh... this candidate, if I vote on him then he'll stop Bolsa Família right? I'll go with the other one" and similar questions. And my brother can't do shit about it. These are people that depend on that money and help to live, so of course they get scared when someone tells them that they'll lose their lifeline if candidate Y wins over X.

Hell, look at this
https://a.pomf.cat/zyssbq.mp4

That was posted by a friend on his Facebook timeline. That car is blasting through its speakers:
"They want to end Bolsa Família. With Minha Casa Minha vida.With Prouni. With Pronatec and various other social achievements [...].
And end the annual increment of the minimum wage and retirement.
They want to end SAMU, Mais Médicos and UPAs.
They want to end the distribution of income to keep the privileges of the bankers.
We're against the coup.
Come, bring your family, at 14:00 Friday 18th"

Quick and dirty translation, but you can see how they act by bringing fear to people.
Those untranslated Portuguese words are all Government social programs.

 

[hawk2025]

This is the worst thing honestly. My brother worked helping the voting in 3 elections already(2010, 2012, 2014) and
EVERY
SINGLE
ONE OF THEM had lots and lots of people, saying
"Oh... this candidate, if I vote on him then he'll stop Bolsa Família right? I'll go with the other one" and similar questions. And my brother can't do shit about it. These are people that depend on that money and help to live, so of course they get scared when someone tells them that they'll lose their lifeline if candidate Y wins over X.

Hell, look at this
https://a.pomf.cat/zyssbq.mp4

That was posted by a friend on his Facebook timeline. That car is blasting through its speakers:
"They want to end Bolsa Família. With Minha Casa Minha vida.With Prouni. With Pronatec and various other social achievements [...].
And end the annual increment of the minimum wage and retirement.
They want to end SAMU, Mais Médicos and UPAs.
They want to end the distribution of income to keep the privileges of the bankers.
We're against the coup.
Come, bring your family, at 14:00 Friday 18th"

Quick and dirty translation, but you can see how they act by bringing fear to people.
Those untranslated Portuguese words are all Government social programs.

People use the term "FUD" a lot.

This is, like, FUD itself in truck form.

 

[Coriolanus]

The problem with Moro's approach when handling the wiretaps is that there's no way in hell STF will ever consider those legal. This leaves impeachment (or a bullet to the head) the only viable way to remove PT from power, given that the only somewhat hard evidence that Dilma tried to save Lula's ass is in them tapes.

Fwiw Moro most likely also incurred in the crime written in art. 10 of the wiretap law. Should be interesting to see what he'll argue to defend himself from that, if he's ever denounced for it

This appears to be true but who cares right now? There is only one ruling party so they deserve to take the brunt of this.

The one ruling party is actually two, PT and PMDB. PMDB has either been directly in power or a considerable part of power in every single administration since we left the military dictatorship. PMDB currently has control of both houses of congress and of the vice-presidency, on top of some ministries, and it is (somewhat) allied with the government.

Both of the presidents in the senate and in the house are notoriously corrupt, and yet no party will be able to rule this country without PMDB's backing.

Fun times ahead.

 

[hawk2025]

The one ruling party is actually two, PT and PMDB. PMDB has either been directly in power or a considerable part of power in every single administration since we left the military dictatorship. PMDB currently has control of both houses of congress and of the vice-presidency, on top of some ministries, and it is (somewhat) allied with the government.

Both of the presidents in the senate and in the house are notoriously corrupt, and yet no party will be able to rule this country without PMDB's backing.

Fun times ahead.

Tbh, the one thing we all need to focus on and hopefully agree here is that -- no matter what happens right now -- we need to have a strong, grassroots campaign to vote against PMDB candidates on the next elections.

The fuckers are worse than Hydra (the mythical beast or the Marvel organization, pick one!)

 

[Abilidebob]

People use the term "FUD" a lot.

This is, like, FUD itself in truck form.

Now that's a fud truck I can't find tasty.

 

[Ganzlinger]

This is the worst thing honestly.

[...]

but you can see how they act by bringing fear to people.

These people are the worst of scum. It's crazy to see enlightened people defending them.

 

[Tiops]

Yesterday's protests weren't planned. They were completely spontaneous. Today's pro government protests were scheduled ahead and fully supported by the worker's unions. So it's only fair to compare them to last Sunday's protests, that were also planned ahead.

Wiki leaks guy is absolutely biased for the government. If you're not Brazilian, look for better sources, like unbiased media sites with more credibility.

Today's protests also have incredibly stupid signs, like asking for the Federal judge's death. So, if we're going to use the few signs asking for a military intervention to discredit previous protests, we should use these ones too.

And btw, the estimative for today's protests throughout the country is around 150k protesters.

We had more than 4 million Sunday.