In the end, they all want to be like Apple. And I can understand that Sony thinks they are currently Apple in the console market. Big and loyal fanbase, market leader, good reception, good image, big sales, momentum.
Kotaku: Sony is working on a PS4.5; briefing devs on plans for a more powerful PS4
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
In the end, they all want to be like Apple. And I can understand that Sony thinks they are currently Apple in the console market. Big and loyal fanbase, market leader, good reception, good image, big sales, momentum.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Upgrade your PS4s, you troglodytes!
amstradcpc
Member
Based on a presentation made by Mike Mantor, graphic engineer of AMD, a new APU design was spoted:
http://wccftech.com/xbox-one-may-be-getting-a-new-apu-based-on-amds-polaris-architecture/
This latest paper is very interesting for a couple of reasons, the first is because it carries a very intriguing illustration that depicts a Zen APU featuring a next generation fully memory coherent interocnnect, dubbed Onion3 capable of 50GB/S of total bandwidth. This chip fabric is based on the evolution of the AMD coherent memory technology in Carrizo which is in itself is an improved design of the Playstation 4 and XBOX ONE’s interconnects. The illustration also makes mention of “more CUs” referring to graphics compute units, which indicates that Zen APUs will feature larger and more capable on-board graphics engines than what we’ve seen before.
Additionally, the Zen based APU is also shown featuring HBM memory with 128GB/S of bandwidth. Which is the amount of bandwidth a single 4-Hi stack of first generation HBM can deliver. And that’s surprising, considering that in 2016 second generation HBM is expected to come to market with Nvidia’s Pascal and AMD’s Arctic Islands graphics chips. What’s even more peculiar is that the compandy did not announce any Zen based APUs for 2016. Instead, at AMD’s Financial Analyst Day Zen based APUs and enterprise class products were said to be coming in 2017.
Who is Mike Mantor?:
http://www.hardocp.com/news/2015/12...chael_mantor_to_corporate_fellow#.Vu-1ZvxMyzw
...Mantor has made key contributions to a diverse set of AMD graphics products, including those that power the Microsoft Xbox One™, Sony PlayStation® PS4™`...
http://wccftech.com/xbox-one-may-be-getting-a-new-apu-based-on-amds-polaris-architecture/
This latest paper is very interesting for a couple of reasons, the first is because it carries a very intriguing illustration that depicts a Zen APU featuring a next generation fully memory coherent interocnnect, dubbed Onion3 capable of 50GB/S of total bandwidth. This chip fabric is based on the evolution of the AMD coherent memory technology in Carrizo which is in itself is an improved design of the Playstation 4 and XBOX ONE’s interconnects. The illustration also makes mention of “more CUs” referring to graphics compute units, which indicates that Zen APUs will feature larger and more capable on-board graphics engines than what we’ve seen before.
Additionally, the Zen based APU is also shown featuring HBM memory with 128GB/S of bandwidth. Which is the amount of bandwidth a single 4-Hi stack of first generation HBM can deliver. And that’s surprising, considering that in 2016 second generation HBM is expected to come to market with Nvidia’s Pascal and AMD’s Arctic Islands graphics chips. What’s even more peculiar is that the compandy did not announce any Zen based APUs for 2016. Instead, at AMD’s Financial Analyst Day Zen based APUs and enterprise class products were said to be coming in 2017.
Who is Mike Mantor?:
http://www.hardocp.com/news/2015/12...chael_mantor_to_corporate_fellow#.Vu-1ZvxMyzw
...Mantor has made key contributions to a diverse set of AMD graphics products, including those that power the Microsoft Xbox One™, Sony PlayStation® PS4™`...
NotSmartEnough
Member
What I am struggling to understand is how it makes financial sense for Sony.
A 'slim' revision with UHD video playback and a smaller more efficient APU with the same power makes sense. Sony get to push their movies and continue to make money on the hardware and software sides.
Building a new, more powerful APU puts them back in an expensive part of the cycle, but this time there is no exclusive software to push adoption so they can recover the R&D costs. Volumes are unlikely to match a 'real' console launch, so where is the pay-off for Sony?
I'd probably buy a UHD capable box regardless, so extra gaming power is fine, but I just don't understand the model.
A 'slim' revision with UHD video playback and a smaller more efficient APU with the same power makes sense. Sony get to push their movies and continue to make money on the hardware and software sides.
Building a new, more powerful APU puts them back in an expensive part of the cycle, but this time there is no exclusive software to push adoption so they can recover the R&D costs. Volumes are unlikely to match a 'real' console launch, so where is the pay-off for Sony?
I'd probably buy a UHD capable box regardless, so extra gaming power is fine, but I just don't understand the model.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
New PlayStation 4.
amstradcpc
Member
Going for the entire market is the plan, it always was.
Ninja Sharingan
Banned
maybe they are making more money on hardware over software now, so if they can sell people a new box every couple of years that makes a nice profit from the get go, they end up in a better position than with the ps3 and ps2 era?
wapplew
Member
This so much.
Beautiful Ninja
Member
I don't see how a PS4K would increase marketshare. Ultimately if a person wasn't interested in a PS4 because of the hardware, I don't see how many are waiting for a PS4K versus just getting a gaming PC.
The best way to increase marketshare would be making the base PS4 as cheap as possible. Instead of wasting resources on a more expensive SKU that may very well be ignored on the market, focus your efforts on making the absolute cheapest PS4 SKU possible and roll in the customers like the PS2 era when consoles got super cheap.
I see nothing but downsides for a PS4K, practically no one will develop for it as lowest common denominator will win out, it will fracture the userbase and it'll upset people who think Sony is getting greedy trying to push a 400+ dollar VR HMD then another 400+ dollar console.
Why not both? Maybe they can't cost reduce yet until 16nm gets mature enough to be cost effective - I bet a PS4 APU on 16nm is about the same price as the 28nm due to yields and new process etc.
So the PS4 slim might have to wait until next year. Meanwhile a slightly more expensive 16nm APU can more easily have the cost absorbed into a more expensive PS4.5
Caayn
Member
PS4++, now capable of Object Orientation.
Well, the onion is the name for the CPU-Memory-Interface in the PS4. For GPU_Memory it's called garlic. Both "fight" for resources on memory and the more the CPU wants from the memory, the worse it gets for garlic's performance. It's only natural to further evolve on that.
amstradcpc
Member
The interesting bits is that it could ben Zen based with HBM1. A beast.
Your last line about probably buying it regardless is the key here.
Sony will do lot's of money on their hardcore fan base that will buy a second PS4, just like Rockstar did with GTA5 on next gen.
The thing is, that it's probably wasn't too expensive for Sony to develope it, since consoles are closer to PC than ever, upgrading the PS4 was much easier for them than previous gens where consoles had exotic hardware.
Well, "beast". We still have to see what Zen is capable of in real life applications. I am optimistic, though. And of course it would be a substantial bump over the current specs. I just don't see it in a PS4k.
Do you not understand the concept of upscaling/downscaling on the SAME ARCHITECTURE? There is no magic involved. We are not talking about developing for PS3 and Xbox 360 at the same time.
If you develop for 4K you can downscale easily to the PS4. Everyboy that develops for the PS4 also develops for the 4K.
Beautiful Ninja
Member
Delaying a PS4 Slim would be ridiculous on Sony's part. They are inching ever closer to that 199.99 price tag where the PS4 could pretty much take total control of the market PS2 style. Delaying that and the huge market share that would happen to push out a premium box would be silly in every way imaginable.
We're about 2 years away from what most expected to be the new generation anyway, might as well wait till then for a PS4K when you can produce one for probably half of what it would cost now. And actually get it in a console power envelope.
amstradcpc
Member
Because if MS launches a new console you keep your offer attractive. If MS don´t, you definitely gets the whole market.
Going the X86 architecture route made the PS4 turn profitable 6 months post-release. For each PS4 sold after that date Sony is collecting profits. The more considerable RD costs were made for the PS4. A PS4.5 as it is built on the same framework will build on top of that RD.
amstradcpc
Member
Better than Sandy Bridge IPC would already make them a beast in a closed environment compared to the shitty Jaguars.
Caayn
Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but (128GB/s *8) 1Tb/s, that's the bandwidth of HBM2, not HBM1. So why does the article assume that there's HBM1 used in Zen apu?
Based on SFV? No thanks, I like my consoles finished on release.
Super PlayStation 4 VR Edition
Bitch Pudding
Member
Everyone wants to be that. But if you look at the declining sales development of Apple's tablets, this approach might (!) have a negative impact on Sony's console sales on the long run.
Because, at some point, diminishing returns will make people ask themselves why on earth they really need the newest console. Traditional gaming is already affected, some people can't even tell the difference between an old generation game like GoW3 and and a current generation game like Quantum Break (yes, pun intended). (PS)VR will heavily profit from faster hardware, so this might convince people to upgrade to the newer SKU. But at the end of the day, I have no doubt that only exclusive, hence not "forward compatible" games like a new GTA or Uncharted will convince people to upgrade, while others will keep their old one.
So, at the end of the day, you split your customers into separate bases with this approach, and I am not sure if that's a good thing on the long run.
I don't want to upgrade my current PS4.
But I know I'd feel like shit playing on the old model while I know there is a better version out there and would feel the need to upgrade.
Sucks to know I'll have this feeling every 2 plus years.
If Sony do this they have to do something amazing beyond 1080p/60fps but I figure this is mainly a VR initiative.
But I know I'd feel like shit playing on the old model while I know there is a better version out there and would feel the need to upgrade.
Sucks to know I'll have this feeling every 2 plus years.
If Sony do this they have to do something amazing beyond 1080p/60fps but I figure this is mainly a VR initiative.
Perhaps it was MS who wanted to introduce mid-cycle upgrade first and Sony decided it's worth to follow them or perhaps it was the other way around.
Either way, I welcome this. (In case this happens I will probably sell off my PS4 to a late adopter for a fair price, with the money from that and with a small -supposedly- investment I would get a brand new, more capable console.)
Exciting times ahead.
Either way, I welcome this. (In case this happens I will probably sell off my PS4 to a late adopter for a fair price, with the money from that and with a small -supposedly- investment I would get a brand new, more capable console.)
Exciting times ahead.
wapplew
Member
Unless MS show up with monster rig and crazy price, I don't see the appeal.
PS4 will remain target hardware for dev, it won't be Gears 1 type of improvement on 360.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
By pushing a high priced premium sku, they can ofset the inital profit loss of dropping the vanilla sku to PS2 era prices ($199)
Or maybe AMD shared with both companies their roadmap for the next APU and both decided to launch an early device with hardware that was available at the time knowing that 3-4 years down the line they would easily beef up their device.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Well they still need something to fill up the massive hole that the vita has created.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
lol
smudge
Member
I am not surprised by this move. I am surprised more people didn't see something like this happening this generation. Given the obvious performance difference from high end PCs to current gen consoles.
Either this was going to be the shortest console generation or something like this was bound to happen.
Either this was going to be the shortest console generation or something like this was bound to happen.
What does a closed environment have to do with that? You are not referring to the old story again, are you?
But yes, better IPC is always welcome. The Jaguars are really shit.
ZehDon
Member
Not even close.
The hardware revisions we've seen thus far all provide cost effective revisions, enabling lower or equal price points for the console to snag the next tier of consumers. Sony made PS2 slim because it was cheaper to make, thus had a lower price point, which increases total sales, driving software adoption. The PS4.5 is not a cost effective revision. Sony would return to the start of the generation, making little to no profit on hardware, pushing for sheer quantity of hardware to enable profit due to large software sales. They're better off selling more PS4s, which ultimately drive the same software adoption.
This doesn't change the power gap between PC and console though
NotSmartEnough
Member
Thanks for the responses, seems like I was thinking too much about the old console model where hardware wasn't profitable for quite a while, and the software filled the gap.
I guess they could drop the PS4 prices to clear the old model, replace it with a cheap slim revision, and then launch the upgraded version alongside it. Messaging is key, and I think any meaningful upgrade is likely to result in exclusives at some point in the future. It would effectively be a new gen, but with an extended cross-gen period.
I don't think this rumor exists outside of gaming forums, especially outside GAF.
No, the HDMI port made that choice to them. AMD R300 line of GPUs [which is used in PS4 APU] supports only up to HDMI 1.4.
wapplew
Member
Oh, everyone is reporting it. Tons of youtube channel talk about it, don't underestimate the power of social media.
This is the situation I'm in, I was going to pick one up after E3, now I'm not so sure
sublimit
Banned
Gaming forums are incredibly important though.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I was going to get one for PSVR, but if it isn't out by October I'll cancel that order too and wait to see if they bring out one next year instead.
sublimit
Banned
Pretty sure that there are a lot of people like you,and even worse (for Sony) a lot of them are more than willing to spread this rumor even further to non-hardcore gaming circles.
The longer Sony stays silent the more damage they will get.
wapplew
Member
Unless the story is real.
amstradcpc
Member
About the closed environment i refer that never in the console space has been a top of the line CPU to play with.Is a pity seeing for example Naughty Dog fighting to fit the processes of its engine in Jaguar cores and trying to match what they alreay made with Cell.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Unfortunately that's something you're unlikely to categorically know until they announce the PS5.
If they announce it, it's true. If they don't then there's always still the chance.
Edit: I think I misread your post.
Don't count of that. If they want to offer beefed up PS4, they need to stick to the familiar architecture. HBM is still very expensive, everyone will wait to use that for a true "next gen" cycle.
Also, don't expect desktop Zen. Puma is ~20% faster than Jaguar, and I don't know what is Puma's successor on 14nm finfet. They will go with that over Zen.