Assuming the ARM contract is related to Nintendo, I would think it pertains to a handheld and not a home console.
Kotaku: Sony is working on a PS4.5; briefing devs on plans for a more powerful PS4
- Thread starter shinobi602
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Assuming the ARM contract is related to Nintendo, I would think it pertains to a handheld and not a home console.
I can´t understand how people can support this. Threads complaining that this gen is slow and no games that justified the upgrade have really been released are common, but it seems 2016 will be when the gen gains traction and games start coming...yet now we have this announcement and people are actually excited? So what´s the plan here, buy a console, wait 2-3 years for it to start getting games, then upgrade to the next one and repeat?
I don´t get it.
From another point of view, it´s a mistake to release an upgrade, devs should learn to work with what they have, optimize their games and think how to squeeze power from the current systems, usually having those limitations is what will force people to push the limits and make breakthroughs as a result.
I don´t get it.
From another point of view, it´s a mistake to release an upgrade, devs should learn to work with what they have, optimize their games and think how to squeeze power from the current systems, usually having those limitations is what will force people to push the limits and make breakthroughs as a result.
jeff_rigby
Banned
With further reading it confirms AMD will release Zen and dGPUs using 14nm FinFET at the end of 2016 with APUs using Zen in 2017. No mention of Jaguar like CPUs on FinFET. They are moving the ZEN CPUs to SMT (simultaneous multithreading), changing the Onion interface and supporting DDR4 and HBM at the same time. This makes the CPU cache structure vastly different from Jaguar made possible because of the faster Onion bus to the faster HBM and DDR4. SMT requires lots of SRAM cache in the chip (Intel expensive APUs support this for SMT) or faster buss to DDR4 and HBM.
The SMT advantage Intel had because they included lots of expensive SRAM cache on chip made Intel chips more expensive but faster. This is changing with ZEN and DDR4/HBM.
25X more power efficient than 2014 designs by 2020 is possible and part of the design changes coming. What might we see in a new game console design? Do they have to wait till 2020 or can a game console semi custom design have these features earlier? 4K gaming at power levels needed for the living room require at least some of the new efficiencies.
Sony has already started testing 4K live sports events streaming on their 4K tvs & I know they will love to be able to get 4K in more homes & be a major 4K provider. this PS4 will help them get into more homes even if the people don't have Sony TVs. I know the big stations have already started testing over the air 4K in some places but I think it will be awhile before everyone get their equipment upgraded for 4K so this would give Sony a chance to reach people with live 4K before over the air stations & they will have a head start on the cable & satellite companies because they would need to get new equipment into people homes.
Also I don't think this PS4K is going to be priced over $399 because they want to get into as many homes as possible for PlayStation Vue & 4K.
Something else that I thought about when there was a bad storm in my area last month is that if Sony/MS want to take over the living room & have people connected to their console from the moment they turn their TV on until they turn it off they need to have a Emergency Broadcasting System in place. I'm not sure if that can be done with the radios that's in the PS4/Xbox One now but I'm hoping that this PS4K & whatever Windows device STBs MS is planning to release going forward have a way to pick up local airwaves.
Do you think Sony will use this PS4.5 as a true STB with a over the air receiver for local channels? They already bit the bullet & went nationwide with PlayStation Vue at $29 so I don't think they want to raise the price as the local channels join in nationwide but if they have a over the air receiver they wouldn't have to.
That would be a "political" choice imposed by Sony not a technological one (crucially, one that can be reviewed at a later stage). As other posters have noted, the only way for such a machine to make sense from a technological POV is to review the whole architecture, which means that for all intents and purposes this will be a new machine.
amstradcpc
Member
Yeah.As for the Mike Mantor presentation it would be a 2,5D stacked soc, with CPU,GPU and HBM1 memory joint by an interposer and the ONION bus with 50GB/s of bandwidth communicating the GPU-CPU and HBM1 memory. Out of the SOC would be the DDR4 memory linked to the CPU.
Asumming this design for PS4+ it would have then 4GB of HBM1 and 4GB of DDR4.
Yes, that's how I feel about the whole thing. Next gen is going to start 2017/2018 which is bascially the old console (pre gen 7) cycle.
The situation right now is basically a Mexican standoff scenario:
Everyone knows NX will come late 2016/2017 and MS eventually has to do something.
Depending on what NX is and how much hype it generates it will put more pressure on Xbox.
If MS moves, Sony is now showing that they are prepared and that they won't give them a headstart again.
Possible, realistic scenario: new consoles in fall/winter 2017.
If NX flops and VR takes off without the necessity of a hardware upgrade, I expect new consoles in 2018.
It may well be called PS5 and run all existing PS4 games due to having the same architecture, and games developed for it wouldn't be able to run on the PS4 because the PS5 has significantly better specs. This wouldn't be the case with a 4.5, as the PS4 would remain the lead development platform for new games.
I wasn't being mean or snarky, just pointing out that if a company is "afraid" of offending people even if it makes financial sense is silly. Doing these upgrades every two years is dumb, but if they really do plan on launching in Q4 2017, that would be 4 year differences, and that's totally fine with me. The performance to be gained by going Zen/Polaris/HBM is far too great and allows for much more modern and cheap console that has future ideas in motion.
Yeap more or less. I don't know so much about PS3 emulation, but their are patents on an external PS3 like device which would allow native PS3 emulation.
Well the news out on the interwebs is that AMD plans to ship 16 nm APU's this year, but "shipping" and having a PS4.5 ready for market are two different things. The more important thing is the CPU upgrade from Zen. Zen seems like Sony/MS's only chance at reaching top level CPU performance in their consoles without going to Intel.
At Q4 2017 it's more or less a generation leap, would definitely be called PS5 if that were the case.
Not a big fan of new and improved console hardware being released, for one its shitting on the early adopters that made the PS4 a success. Second, they think they're not Apple coming out with newer revisions each year, hate to break it to Sony but Apple's products sell like hot cakes because it's technology that's not limited to just gaming. I hope Sony aren't pulling a Sega with more add-on accessories as people will just get tired of buying revised versions of PS4 each year or 2 years. One thing is to create a slim model and another is creating a brand new PS4 hardware with updated specs that shits on the hardcore fan base.
I'll wait till the PS4 revision is like $100 bucks or so. Spent $300 for a console that should last me for awhile.
I'll wait till the PS4 revision is like $100 bucks or so. Spent $300 for a console that should last me for awhile.
Yep, those Iphone comparissons don't work. Why don't we compare buying consoles to buying new sneakers then. Smartphones are life-style accessories, they have become a way of life! For the majority of consumers world-wide phones are waaay more important than video games. Just wait for the first volunteers to put Iphone like tech under their skin. The console industry on the other hand can feel very lucky if they manage to reach former LTDs (Last gen 260mio vs. 75mio as of now).
uomoartificiale
Member
Wait a minute: there's a rumor going around now, then probably some unofficial confirmation this E3, an official announcement next year, and finally a release the year after that. That makes a short, but somewhat acceptable 5 year cycle.
They could release this new system as PS5, say it's backward compatible, even have a downgraded version of the new games still running on PS4, and come out of it on top.
What I want to say is this: once they went x86, the whole "generation" concept losed any meaning.
They could release this new system as PS5, say it's backward compatible, even have a downgraded version of the new games still running on PS4, and come out of it on top.
What I want to say is this: once they went x86, the whole "generation" concept losed any meaning.
CosmicQueso
Member
Oh nevermind.
Pretty much. The only question is when is it coming. They will likely still keep the naming convention going forward unless they want to cause confusion among the public. Or this thing could be something else. We don't know any details yet.
Neuromancer
Member
Cool maybe you can get a copy of the documentation you say is floating around. That would make this story much more believable to me.
jeff_rigby
Banned
They would have the lower spec and price PS4 for that. I don't see a PS4.5 with Zen, Polaris and HBM on 14nm FinFET being cheap.
The PS4 Southbridge supports AOAC network standby with LAN and Wifi radio configurable power modes. So yes it's possible and I think a designed in feature that is also available for Video chat incoming calls.
No I don't think any will have a built in tuner, a USB or ATSC 3 network tuner would work with a PS4 or PS4.5 and we already have the Sony Nasne model which many were thinking in 2012 was a signal for Sony's media plans.
Every 4K Smart TV TV sold to some future date past 2017 is going to need a Network tuner for 4K TV., There is speculation that Monitor 4K TVs without any tuner or Browser are coming and they will require a Network tuner and Media hub STB like the PS4 or XB1.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Add to that that the PS4 and XB1 are the first EMBEDDED DRM PCs and Windows 10 OEM requires the same.
The dumbest thing about your posts -- which are remarkably, unbelievably dumb! -- is that you don't seem to realize the reason "industry players" (Bethesda and Ubisoft) are "avoiding" us is that we reported news about their unannounced projects, all of which turned out to be true. It's almost like we have a track record for this!
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Meh dont bother man. I appreciate what you guys do i may not like this particular news for now but thanks for going out your way to deliver.
jeff_rigby
Banned
With HBM there would be no need for the PS4 southbridge and it's 256 MB of memory. Both the PS4 and XB1 designs move closer to each other which again brings up why have different SoCs considering they are based on AMD designs.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Because it is a design choice. Why is this soooo hard for some people to understand. The PS5 could be a super computer that weighs 50 lbs and you'll still have games that run in 30 fps.
amstradcpc
Member
Microsoft is a missing piece in the puzzle. I agree they could end up launching twin consoles if AMD was their supplier.
In the rumor post about AMD semi custom contracts I talked about Nintendo and Apple and maybe Sony. Maybe in the end MS chose the PC route and that´s why Sony wants to launch a more powerful machine.
amstradcpc
Member
The market target would reduce greatly (me for example wouldn´t change a PS4 for a PS4+ to get the same frame rates at 1080p). People would stare at that castrated machine knowing that its inners are capable of great things. People trying to hack them to untap the power!.
But they will know better...
PS: I misunderstood, i was thinking your post was about gimping the more powerful consoles version to get the same performance.
Omnistalgic
Member
One of the best stories to break in a while...good job kotaku for generating a bunch of discussion.
Tired of speculating personally, but I do wish I knew what was going on.
Tired of speculating personally, but I do wish I knew what was going on.
As long as new games continue on being made for both models (i.e.: No PS4.5 exclusives) then I don't see how it's punishing early adopters. Early adopters got to play some pretty graphically impressive games while the majority of console gamers were still on last gen.
I agree that it would be really dumb if Sony released a new console model every year but I don't think it's going to happen.
I simply think this move is nothing more than the present day version of a "Slim". I think Sony (and MS for that matter) feels as if people expect more from newer versions of (current) devices than just a smaller size due to the "iPhone S" model being around for almost 10 years now (it started with the 3GS).
For example, people with iPhone 6 are getting the exact same support as people with the iPhone 6S. The latter just runs apps a bit better. It seems like that same model will be true for PS4 vs. PS4.5.
But the hardcore fan base usually gets slim consoles anyway to replace their "old fats". Wouldn't it be better to get a console with a bit more power instead of something that's exactly the same?
Also, this move will be to more than likely help with the fact that console gaming doesn't have as many "casuals" as last gen did. A cheaper (typical) slim model probably won't increase sales this gen as much as they did last gen due to that fact.
Might as well "kill two birds with one stone" and target casuals who are going to jump into this current gen this year as well as core gamers who care more about graphical power with a new slim model that is more powerful than the original.
pixellated_man
Member
Very good post from about 30 pages back that I've reposted in case anyone missed it.
Could be that Sony isn't really going the iterative path even if ps4.5 becomes a reality this or next year. One iterative console does not mean it is suddenly a business model Sony will follow for ever. An iterative model this or next year makes sense because of new technologies catching on like 4k and VR. Or real jumps in cpu /gpu processing power like HBM 2.0 etc. 2 / 3 more years after ps4.5 there may not be as many reasons for another iterative model.
Where does it say anywhere in the Kotaku article that Sony are going the iterative route anyway? It's something we are presuming Sony will be doing because Microsoft and possible Nintendo have talked about going this route.
CosmicQueso
Member
Welp, given how quickly PSVR sold out this morning, tough to see how releasing a revised console could have a significant negative impact on PSVR sales this year. Looks like PSVR might be the hot holiday item regardless.
Complete agreement with this. One iteration certainly does not mean iterative consoles forever.
4K TVs are going to be pushed very hard this holiday. The idea that Sony is going to be okay with trying to sell a bunch of 4K TVs while its gaming console, that cannot output 4K for games, sits under that TV for the next 2-3 years is ludicrous.
Sony has to push 4K TVs, best way to do that is by pushing content, both gaming and entertainment. The best way to do that is through PS4.
Complete agreement with this. One iteration certainly does not mean iterative consoles forever.
4K TVs are going to be pushed very hard this holiday. The idea that Sony is going to be okay with trying to sell a bunch of 4K TVs while its gaming console, that cannot output 4K for games, sits under that TV for the next 2-3 years is ludicrous.
Sony has to push 4K TVs, best way to do that is by pushing content, both gaming and entertainment. The best way to do that is through PS4.
Coolade
Member
Considering almost every game on PC is capable of running at 60fps, I wouldn't call it a design choice so much as a combination of a few things. The lack of console power limits their abilities to hit higher framerates and 1080p became a marketing PR buzzword this generation when no one really cared about resolution last gen. You can sell graphics more easily in a screenshot than fluid gameplay so that's the "choice" they make. 900/720p and 60fps would certainly be a better standard for this ps4/x1 generation if it's what people expressed they cared about from the start.
You mean when the original Xbox came out 2001?
It's actually was pretty weird that Ms went power pc after the original xbox.
inpHilltr8r
Member
Because MS are committed to an enormous chunk of embedded memory that they're going to have a lot of fun removing, if they ever can.
inpHilltr8r
Member
Note that NOONE has gone back to intel or nvidia.
Also that once you go AMD, you don't go back.
Couldn't Microsoft just imitate it without actually using it in a new simple design if they have faster memory.
When stations make the move to ATSC 3 people using over the air is gonna need new TVs or STBs that support ATSC 3 that will leave the lane wide open for PS4.5 & Windows 10 STBs to move in as the standards for STBs . I don't think they will need to have coaxial inputs with the new standard just a radio chip & antenna/connection that can receive the signals. just think if Sony was able to position themselves in a place where PS4 is the number one receiver for over the air TV & be able to use that to get people to subscribe to PlayStation Vue or even use over the air signals for PlayStation Now as long as you have a ATSC 3 receiver & PlayStation controller.
CosmicQueso
Member
What's being ignored?
anothertech
Member
I think I just figured this puzzle out!
Sony and MS are trying to help Nintendo out by releasing consoles at the same cycle as NX! No more off cycle for you Nintendo. Now it all makes sense.
Sony and MS are trying to help Nintendo out by releasing consoles at the same cycle as NX! No more off cycle for you Nintendo. Now it all makes sense.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Yeah, I think the ARM semi-custom is NX. Doubt it would be PowerVR after what AMD mentioned, and Apple is looking to purchase Imagination Technologies for PowerVR - that would be a big blow to the NX handheld if it happens and an AMD design doesn't exist.
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Didn't realise this until now but AMD seems to be working on three semi-custom design wins (two since late 2014, one since 2015), I'm guessing whatever they are doing for Apple is Zen-based -- perfect for a new iMac. Which leaves the two which are both ARM-based and x86 - both of which should be ready by late 2016. Hmmm.
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As for a New PS4, this will be more New 3DS/Game Boy Color than iPhone 6s or a new PC. Existing and new games will need to be updated or programmed to support the extra hardware features - they won't receive performance improvements for free.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
But there's no evidence a mid-gen upgrade didn't help in anything.
Psychological Intellect
Banned
DAMN11
This is what I've wanted to say the whole time. You'll always have developers who choose to sacrifice those 30 frames for more eye candy, no matter how much more powerful consoles get. 60fps will never be the standard.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Wishful thinking: here's hoping PS4K includes 802.11ac Wi-Fi, something that's so lacking in current console but has now become a standard.
ninjablade
Banned
yea if that the case might as well not make a 4.5, the hardcore will only shell out that much money for a console, and it needs to have all kind of options, like 60fps/1080p option for people who don't own a 4k tv but want a better experience. if you're gonna make a elite console, it should be elite not just support 4k resolution. it's like when the p3 was 249$ would you pay 400$ for a ps3 that can only do 1080p?
vpance
Gold Member
Yeah I don't think it'll be much of a problem because of DX12.
That only holds true because Vita had no mid-gen upgrade.
