It's almost like people have disagreements about things
Dave Chappelle getting backlash for jokes about Caitlyn Jenner
- Thread starter uncelestial
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Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
That's probably his best bit, but I think RAW is more consistently funny.
schrodinger's joke.
richardhawk
Member
Yeah why not?
old
Member
Good comedians challenge your views. Hack comedians pander to your biases. Dave is doing exactly what he should be doing: questioning popular notions and the majority opinion. Sometimes that means your sacred cows get in their crosshairs.
You don't have to agree to with a comedien to laugh at their material.
You don't have to agree to with a comedien to laugh at their material.
johnsavage
Member
I was vague and that statement wasn't pro joke nor was it anti joke.
If someone finds something funny then they find it funny. It's no one's place to tell someone what they should or should not find humorous, just like it's no one's place to tell someone else what sexual orientation they should be.
Hellwarden
Member
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
The cat being dead is only funny when the cat isn't dead
tkscz
Member
This.
Honestly it's going to come down to if you found it funny, it is not offensive, even if you're trans. If you didn't find it funny, then it's offensive. This is always how it is.
Which also comes down to your opinion. You believe it's non-sense, someone else might not. The way I see it, you'll never do anything that won't offend someone. When it comes to this joke, he's going to offend some trans, he's going to make some trans laugh, and some won't care nor listen.
Coffee Dog
Banned
It isn't just like that. Because the difference here is, the people that think Dave didn't do anything wrong arent empathetic to trans issues and the denial of those issues, when they should be.
Disagreement is a moral failing.
let me be doubtful about rape jokes being democratically received by the American media...or any country of sort
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I think, similar to other comedians like Stone/Parker, Key&Peele, Seth McFarlane, Ricky Gervais, etc, Chapelle has the reputation of an equal opportunity jokester, so I think it's kind of silly to get selectively pissed at individual insults.
If bits stop going over well with audiences, they will get phased out of the act. That's how comedy works. If you go to an R-rated show with the expectation that everything you hold sacred will only be mentioned in a positive light, you should probably find another form of entertainment.
Obviously trans people are near the bottom rung in terms of groups that society respects enough not to insult to their faces. But I don't think a blanket ban on trans jokes is the answer.
There can be and have been funny jokes about black people, from black/white/hispanic/asian comedians. Some of them play up obvious stereotypes. You pretty much have to judge a joke in the context of who's saying it, what it says, and how playful the tone is, you can't blanket say "you can never make fun of black people's diets or music or naming conventions."
It's context that makes a university blackface/gangsta party or the Redskins logo offensive and racist, not just the fact that black people are the butt of a joke.
If bits stop going over well with audiences, they will get phased out of the act. That's how comedy works. If you go to an R-rated show with the expectation that everything you hold sacred will only be mentioned in a positive light, you should probably find another form of entertainment.
Obviously trans people are near the bottom rung in terms of groups that society respects enough not to insult to their faces. But I don't think a blanket ban on trans jokes is the answer.
There can be and have been funny jokes about black people, from black/white/hispanic/asian comedians. Some of them play up obvious stereotypes. You pretty much have to judge a joke in the context of who's saying it, what it says, and how playful the tone is, you can't blanket say "you can never make fun of black people's diets or music or naming conventions."
It's context that makes a university blackface/gangsta party or the Redskins logo offensive and racist, not just the fact that black people are the butt of a joke.
i would say that richards calling audience members niggers is pretty much the same degree of bigotry as saying that trans people are just delusional about their gender
uncelestial
Member
I don't think any group is off limits at all. I don't even think any subjects are off limits.
I remember this debate between Jim Norton and Lindy West about rape jokes, and despite being a rabid feminist I really found myself agreeing with Jim that the purpose of jokes about dark subject can be and usually is to own the tension around those topics and deflate them, and that ultimately it's a cathartic experience to do so. Lindy made the also-correct statement that doing things for comedy and living in a country with free speech doesn't mean you can't possibly be doing things that make you a dick, and nothing shields you from criticism when you hurt people, and that rape comes up as a line in the sand because it's frequently mishandled by male comedians and it's something women are constantly afraid of. In the midst of explaining all that, though, I caught her making rape jokes. During that very debate! She made some joke like, looking at her watch, "eh, I'm not doing anything right now" (so I might as well rape this person), and she took the laugh from that and accepted it as a comedian. And that exact it's-not-so-serious flippancy is all any comedian is really asking for from the audience when they handle touchy shit. Even the horrible Tosh joke was really just using that "this is overboard and obviously I don't mean it" tone.
But Dave's jokes weren't like that; we live in a world where trans people are really struggling to have their gender identity respected by others, and this was just a blatant repudiation of their right to have that. The premise of the jokes just felt like, the fundamental premise of being transgender was under existential attack.
These are all complex feelings to untangle but talking it out, that's what it comes down to. I'm not trying to railroad Dave or take him out of context. I think he's a comedic genius. I'm a huge fan -- that's why I went to see him. But he has a problem here.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
You should probably meet everyone in this thread to see if we're literally outraged before you make up your mind.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
how do you define rape jokes? you might be right if you mean jokes that are nothing but "ain't rape funny?" but people like louis c.k., doug stanhope, norm macdonald and many others have hilarious jokes involving rape.
but you cant prove that it isnt funny if the cat is dead though.
Literally no one is asking for this.
What's the non-transphobic context for saying "how long are we supposed to indulge in your fantasy"?
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
We have video of the incident with Richards. We have nothing but a "quote" from OP about Dave Chappelle. You're making a lot of assumptions in order to equate those. It depends on how it's said, and what exactly was said. Intent matters.
Kramer wanted to be racist to make those people angry.
well that's really the difference. i could see someone like louis ck making a joke involving trans people really funny, but just saying "lol trans people are insane" isn't the way to do it.
DataStream
Member
I think he splits time between SF and Yellow Springs, OH. Yellow Springs is one of the most liberal places I have ever been (I went to college there). Queer politics are well established.
And it's only going to get worse.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The point is that we clearly draw lines for this kind of stuff. Surely, some people defended Richards' rant as comedy.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia - Charlie Kelly: Full On Rapist
Charlie Day Horrible Bosses You're a Raper
Charlie Day pulls it off pretty well lol
Aw hell no. I mean you're halfway right that he's obviously a comedian, but being a clown is an insult even to standups. Especially to someone like Chappelle because everyone wants to see him do the Rick James skits over & over again. Not to mention Dave's already bombed shows and specifically referenced how Damon Wayans dealt with Homey D. Clown
It's already beyond that.
Or maybe we're just tired of comedians being put on a critic-free pedestal to the point that people can't admit when someone simply made a bad, tasteless joke.
ThatStupidLion
Member
obviously everyone is gonna have their own opinion. I'm not gonna take what a comedian says during a performance in the midst of a set up/bit too seriously.
i mean obviously you're not going to see a dave chappelle show because it's not your style of humor or whatever...but now that you're aware of what goes on within a show that you have zero interest in/had before any of this, you're going to be very vocal and public about what is wrong with what you already don't like.
it's like a person hating pickles so they don't eat them, yet if they hear a pickle has ridges, they'll tell you that a pickle with ridges doesn't taste good. well then why are you telling me about pickles with ridges if you're not a fan of pickles in the first place.
why people have to/feel the need to push their opinions onto each other so much that it makes one side defeated is so unnecessary.
people are going to be offended. people aren't going to be offended. the world is still gonna turn. that's the beauty of this world.
i mean obviously you're not going to see a dave chappelle show because it's not your style of humor or whatever...but now that you're aware of what goes on within a show that you have zero interest in/had before any of this, you're going to be very vocal and public about what is wrong with what you already don't like.
it's like a person hating pickles so they don't eat them, yet if they hear a pickle has ridges, they'll tell you that a pickle with ridges doesn't taste good. well then why are you telling me about pickles with ridges if you're not a fan of pickles in the first place.
why people have to/feel the need to push their opinions onto each other so much that it makes one side defeated is so unnecessary.
people are going to be offended. people aren't going to be offended. the world is still gonna turn. that's the beauty of this world.
I don't think it's the answer either but I don't really see anyone saying this. The specific joke in question is what's being discussed
A Link to the Past
Banned
What blanket ban? We're discussing a particularly egregious "joke", not the very concept of making jokes at the expense of trans people.
hey if we can have War jokes and ISIS jokes and murder jokes then why the fuck not
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Maybe if you get your rebel politics from the cover of Vanity Fair.
The mainstream-acceptable view is to hold Caitlyn Jenner up as a heroine. Television tells people to accept her.
For better or worse, the taboo is to poke fun at this.
Why not? It illustrates the difference between hateful commentary and comedy. There is a line that can indeed be crossed and that's an excellent example of when someone crosses it.
If someone wants to argue the merits of the/a joke that's one thing but the cutesy routine where people handwave a joke under the "what subjects should comedy avoid then!?" line is intellectually lazy and doesn't contribute to the discussion.
Zeyphersan
Banned
It's pandering to popular biases to say that being trans is a fantasy
A Link to the Past
Banned
War/ISIS jokes are often made to do two things:
1. Relieve people's tensions by introducing brevity into otherwise bad situations
2. Relieve people's tensions by reducing an enemy to being a joke
Making fun of trans people isn't the same as making fun of ISIS
Coffee Dog
Banned
People are coming into this thread assuming that the issue is something much more dramatic, since "Dave Chappelle told a joke I didn't laugh at" isn't newsworthy in the least.
the point is that it would be totally fine to mock caitlyn's "heroic" persona by pointing out that she is a rich asshole. calling her delusional about her gender is mocking a fundamental part of her identity, which isn't something that most people find acceptable when it comes to things like race.
Livingskeletons
If I pulled that off, would you die?
This. Nothing is off limits at a comedy show. If you don't like it, don't go.
HawksWinStanley
Member
Dennis' bit about "the implication" was even better.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
What was the joke here?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
That's not something you can say, though. Not in 2016. It's become a sacred cow, and comedians love breaking taboo (for better and for worse).
Good thing comedians don't joke about race.
A Link to the Past
Banned
It kind of reminds me of a situation involving Lindsey Graham and Caitlyn Jenner, where on the liberal Raw Story website, a lot of people were attacking him as being a trans woman/gay in order to mock him, and did not understand that the insult was not against Graham, but against LGBT people.
So for instance, Michael Richards shouting the n-word and going on a crazy rant is comedy?
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