Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
The whole crux of the "debate" seems like people conflating criticism with censorship.
Dave Chappelle getting backlash for jokes about Caitlyn Jenner
- Thread starter uncelestial
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Blueboys1306
Banned
Don't understand why everyone is getting upset... Is it upsetting them or do they feel better in themselves for defending Caitlyn Jenner? What is it anyone's business anyway? Why do so many people feel like it's their right to get upset over something that doesn't concern or harm them? It was a JOKE...
uncelestial
Member
What if it was 1793 and a white comedian was guffawing at a black man insisting they were more than 3/5ths of a person, and the comedian asks: "to what extent should I have to participate in your self-image?"
That's literally how backwards this joke is.
Blueboys1306
Banned
This is what I mean. What gives anyone the right to feel like they need to stand up for every single "minority" group in the world? What is it your business or anyone else's business? It's a joke. It's meant to be funny. If he offended anyone, it would be Caitlyn Jenner. The person the joke is about. If they're offended let them speak. Why do all of these do holders feel like they need to talk on behalf of everyone else? Seems like it makes them feel good.
Just to clarify, I didn't find it particularly funny, but I didn't find it offensive either. I don't find most things offensive because I feel like people should be able to take jokes and, at the end of the day whether it's fair or not, people have a right to free speech. In this case it was a joke. Don't turn it into anything more than that.
Just to clarify, I didn't find it particularly funny, but I didn't find it offensive either. I don't find most things offensive because I feel like people should be able to take jokes and, at the end of the day whether it's fair or not, people have a right to free speech. In this case it was a joke. Don't turn it into anything more than that.
Mike Works
Member
This past season of South Park has been one of, if not my favorite seasons ever because they directly attack and dissemble hyper-political correctness. I think a fair standard of political correctness is a great thing... but the amount that it's been conflated within our society and online these past few years have been stifling, if not dangerous. I love a good offensive joke.
With that being said, I'm completely anti-Chapelle on this one issue (love him as a comedian in general), and here's why: what he said isn't a joke, unless you consider transsexuals a joke. Do I think he can turn it into a joke with some rewording? Yes! But as it stands, from the transcript and the video link in the OP, the problem isn't that he's joking about Caitlyn Jenner or transexual people at all... the problem is he forgot the joke part of the joke. Which is pretty important to the joke.
Want to hear a funny joke involving Caitlyn Jenner? Well read the OP, because Dave had a great one involving Kanye. Granted the butt end of that joke is more on Kanye's ego and mopey demeanor, and how it may have been affected by Caitlyn Jenner's change, but that's still a pretty funny joke.
I hate hyper-political correctness. Hate it hate it hate it. What's the difference between normal PC and hyper-PC? It's subjective, I suppose.
But when it comes to jokes, I can laugh about the absolute worst things in the world... as long as the joke (or the comedian) is constructed in a way that's funny.
If Dave was a comedian who was billed as just saying very inappropriate things, and that was his act (and thus no matter how offensive his jokes, they exist with the purpose of pointing out the horrible things in society, or the human mind, etc.), then I'd have no problem with the Jenner joke in the OP.
But that's not Dave's act. Dave just shoots the shit, tells story about his life, gives his opinions, and the "joke" in the OP was essentially him saying, "Why do I have to indulge in your fantasy that you think you're a woman, when really we all know you're a man."
I think if he focused the tail end of the joke on how demanding and almost unfair society is when it comes to making everyone feel comforted and welcome these days, to the extent where you'll get your head bit off if you fuck up a pronoun, that would be funny, or at least would classify as a joke or a funny perspective on society.
But instead he equates a transgendered woman's gender reassignment to a black man pretending he's white.
It's unfortunately pretty clear from that video that he's not saying that shit just to shock the crowd... that he believes there's truth to it. Or at least hasn't educated himself on the issue.
I feel that's where the outrage is coming from, and I think it's warranted in this case.
With that being said, I'm completely anti-Chapelle on this one issue (love him as a comedian in general), and here's why: what he said isn't a joke, unless you consider transsexuals a joke. Do I think he can turn it into a joke with some rewording? Yes! But as it stands, from the transcript and the video link in the OP, the problem isn't that he's joking about Caitlyn Jenner or transexual people at all... the problem is he forgot the joke part of the joke. Which is pretty important to the joke.
Want to hear a funny joke involving Caitlyn Jenner? Well read the OP, because Dave had a great one involving Kanye. Granted the butt end of that joke is more on Kanye's ego and mopey demeanor, and how it may have been affected by Caitlyn Jenner's change, but that's still a pretty funny joke.
I hate hyper-political correctness. Hate it hate it hate it. What's the difference between normal PC and hyper-PC? It's subjective, I suppose.
But when it comes to jokes, I can laugh about the absolute worst things in the world... as long as the joke (or the comedian) is constructed in a way that's funny.
If Dave was a comedian who was billed as just saying very inappropriate things, and that was his act (and thus no matter how offensive his jokes, they exist with the purpose of pointing out the horrible things in society, or the human mind, etc.), then I'd have no problem with the Jenner joke in the OP.
But that's not Dave's act. Dave just shoots the shit, tells story about his life, gives his opinions, and the "joke" in the OP was essentially him saying, "Why do I have to indulge in your fantasy that you think you're a woman, when really we all know you're a man."
I think if he focused the tail end of the joke on how demanding and almost unfair society is when it comes to making everyone feel comforted and welcome these days, to the extent where you'll get your head bit off if you fuck up a pronoun, that would be funny, or at least would classify as a joke or a funny perspective on society.
But instead he equates a transgendered woman's gender reassignment to a black man pretending he's white.
It's unfortunately pretty clear from that video that he's not saying that shit just to shock the crowd... that he believes there's truth to it. Or at least hasn't educated himself on the issue.
I feel that's where the outrage is coming from, and I think it's warranted in this case.
Blueboys1306
Banned
Exactly right. Imagine Carlin were around today with these over sensitive people. He'd be rolling over in his grave right about now.
Mike Works
Member
Would you have said the same thing to white people who participated in the Selma marches?
Moff
Member
no it's not a joke about jenner, it's a statement about transpeople that goes much further than only a "joke", chappelle clearly states they are living a fantasy, not only jenner. if you fail to see that, that's your problem.
and it's not only the right of non-minorities to stand up for minorities, it's their duty in my opinion.
also, I dislike that this is labeled "non-pc" or "offensive" I don't have generally problems with non-pc or offensive jokes, that's fine.
saying transgender people live a fantasy goes much further than that, it's inhumane, dumb and simply wrong every way you can look at it.
if someone said "BLM live in a fantasy world when they think black people should be treated the same as white people" you would not call him "non-pc", you would call him a racist piece of shit, just like chappelle is not only "non-pc", he is a transphobic piece of shit.
I also would love to see an example from you where carlin said something like that, that would fit this category.
Not exactly. The joke seems more about when it's appropriate to adjust his behavior toward trans people, not that he thinks they're sub-human.
Mike Works
Member
I understand why you feel that may be the case, as I think that is hopefully the intent of Chapelle's joke here...
But as it stands, no, uncelestial hit the nail on the head.
Chapelle's joke comes off as: when (or how much) it's appropriate to adjust his behavior to trans-people, as he thinks their identity isn't legitimate.
Again, I understand why you might be reaching the conclusion you're reaching, but the words that he speaks in that joke do not add up to that conclusion.
He literally compares a transgendered male identifying as a female, to a black person pretending to be white.
Blueboys1306
Banned
How does that equate to a JOKE about Caitlyn? Please explain... And again, what is it your concern? Is he joking about you? Why are you personally offended? What did his joke say about you? Why are you taking such offence to it? Will it bring uprising against transgender people? It was a joke. Get over it ffs... Stop being so overly sensitive! Christ I can't believe how offended the non transgender community is getting. Honestly, the transgender people in our world have a voice. If they're offended let them speak FOR THEMSELVES!
This is basically what this kind of stuff boils down to. When the punchline of your joke is just "haha, trans people are stupid" (or "haha, gays are stupid" or "haha, women are stupid" etc. etc.) you don't have a joke, unless you think "trans people" or "gays" or "women" or insert other group here are themselves a punchline - at which point it's just bigotry. Even if Chappelle isn't actually transphobic (which is a big if given his statements), it's still the laziest kind of edgy shock-value "comedy" there is. We should expect better from any comedian.
Mike Works
Member
Well the contention here is that I didn't think what Chapelle said was an actual joke (about Caityln, or about transgendered people as a whole). There was some humor involved in his delivery, but essentially what he was saying was that he shouldn't have to indulge in transgendered people's fantasy, and that identifying as another gender is the same as a black person pretending to be white. That's not a joke, that's just fucking ignorance.
And for the record, I laugh every time Caitlyn Jenner shows up on South Park and runs someone over. I don't give two shits about Caitlyn Jenner.
Such enlightening stuff. Let's say that it's 1950 and a comedian has told a joke about indulging in the fantasy that black people have equally-sized brains as white people. Now let's say some people - both black and white - stand up to the "joke" and the notion that black people have smaller brains.
You get pissed off at the white people standing up for black people, because... I don't know why it angers you, but that's what's happened here. Here's what your reply would look like:
Still think what you're saying makes a lick of sense?
If I'm reading your post correctly it sort of seems contradictory. You say you agree that the intent of his joke might not have been offensive, but the execution of it is. To me I could see that's perhaps because he didn't sell it well, but on some level you have to accept Dave isn't making serious points with his comedy. If you click the link I posted earlier there's another bit where he postulates that there's an ebola conspiracy, pretty much as straight as he does with other observations about black people being oppressed. But even when he addresses serious things I don't think you can take it quite at face value, and that includes the comparison he made. I can't honestly draw a conclusion from that type of line any more than I could from his other stuff.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The joke is not specifically about Caitlyn Jenner, and nothing about the joke relates exclusively to Caitlyn Jenner. The very nature of the joke is designed so that literally any trans person could be substituted. A joke about Caitlyn Jenner crashing into someone, for instance, is not a joke that any trans person could be inserted into. Another example would be to talk about Obama as if he was an ape eating a banana, or making jokes claiming that he's a thug or whatever - these are racist. The fact that these racist jokes are targeted at Obama do not mean for one moment that they are not jokes about black people that just so happen to use Obama as the subject matter.
Also, I'm confused - on one hand, you talk about being in favour of free speech. On the other hand, you seem to be complaining that we are exercising our free speech. Why you censoring us? Why do you hate freedom?
Numerous trans people in this thread have spoken out against Chappelle for his joke, and frankly, I don't think any of them are bothered by support from cis people on this matter. I think you're doing what a lot of deflectionists do and pretending to care about the reduction of trans voices by cis allies, when in fact you're trying to shout down criticism that comes from both. Did you bother to seek perspectives from trans people on this subject? More broadly, have you sought perspective on the matter of cis people speaking for trans people? By what metric do you operate on to determine who is and is not trans on NeoGAF, so as to determine who is allowed to make these criticisms in your eyes? Here, let me educate you - civil rights activism, specifically by the marginalized groups behind the activism, often welcomes the voices of allies (sometimes cautiously) because allies are great for creating awareness for the problem, because especially for trans people, you're never going to have a powerful voice if the only people speaking on the issue are trans people.
Mike Works
Member
I said (or poorly phrased) that I hope the intent of his joke was that people are too easily offended in this 2010's PC culture - even when you're trying to respect their identity and ideology. However, he just blows that all to hell when he starts making fun of "trannies" and their "fantasy".
So while I hope that his intent was to not blatantly disparage trans-gendered people, and while I think that there is a salvageable joke that speaks a truth about our society, I can't actually say what Chapelle's intent was. And I can't actually say what I think his opinion on trans-gendered people are.
But judging from what he said during his joke, if you made me guess, it wouldn't be good.
I appreciate that Dave ain't exactly 100% serious when it comes to his jokes, and he can say outlandish things, but there's a difference between saying "I think there's an ebola conspiracy!!!" and "transgendered people are living a fantasy; it's the same as a black man pretending to be white".
The main idea of comedy is to not be taken seriously, of course there are often times where a comedy bit offends some people. This is not unusual, it goes with the territory, a comedian tells a joke about 9/11 and a large group of people laugh while another group is offended. And you know something? the two can coexist
It's no one's place to tell someone else what is offensive to them, and what is funny. If you don't find a joke funny, then you don't find it funny.
There is a problem within our society of people who carry an unhealthy attitude toward LGBT folks, however I do not believe that Dave Chappelle is a part of the problem. Some folks who carry a negative attitude towards the LGBT community will take something more out of Chappelle's comedy bit than just humor, but those peoples' state of mind is on themselves, not on Dave Chappelle. There are also people out there who will laugh at Chappelle's jokes on transgenders who hold no negative attitude towards transgenders
Just like how someone laughing at a 9/11 joke doesn't necessarily mean that person hates America, someone who laughs at an LGBT joke doesn't mean that person hates the LGBT community.
Life can be a troubling experience, and comedy is just an opportunity to stop and laugh at some of those troubles.
It's no one's place to tell someone else what is offensive to them, and what is funny. If you don't find a joke funny, then you don't find it funny.
There is a problem within our society of people who carry an unhealthy attitude toward LGBT folks, however I do not believe that Dave Chappelle is a part of the problem. Some folks who carry a negative attitude towards the LGBT community will take something more out of Chappelle's comedy bit than just humor, but those peoples' state of mind is on themselves, not on Dave Chappelle. There are also people out there who will laugh at Chappelle's jokes on transgenders who hold no negative attitude towards transgenders
Just like how someone laughing at a 9/11 joke doesn't necessarily mean that person hates America, someone who laughs at an LGBT joke doesn't mean that person hates the LGBT community.
Life can be a troubling experience, and comedy is just an opportunity to stop and laugh at some of those troubles.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Dave chappelle's brand of comedy is incompatable with this social media fuelled world.
We have to accept that things have changed and just work around it. You can be unhappy about it, but it is what is.
No hearts or minds are being won in all this regardless of what either side thinks.
We have to accept that things have changed and just work around it. You can be unhappy about it, but it is what is.
No hearts or minds are being won in all this regardless of what either side thinks.
My point with the Ebola thing is that basically the subject tells you he's not serious. There's other topics he covers with the same type of delivery that are more serious and it's difficult to tell what he actually believes. They may contain elements of truth but to me the conclusion to draw from that is basically to go along for the ride and not take his points on society quite literally, whether they seem earnest or not.
Yes, trans people do have a voice and some of us (including myself) have posted in this thread about how offensive the joke is.
Gotdatmoney
Member
There are two issues that really simply state the problem. The first is that if your audoence didnt find the joke funny, than you didn't tell the right joke for that audience. This is actually fine, no apology needed. If a comedian apologized everytime they offended someone or their jokes went flat they would never have time to actual think of material. Dave just gotta take his L, use it to get better and craft a funnier joke.
The second issue is, I dont actually think he was telling a joke. Like I dont think he himself thought that was a joke. Seems more in line like he thought he was dropping truthfacts and people would find it super refreshing. Do I think that's problematic? No not really, he can say and feel however he wants. In turn he is open to criticism. That is how it works.
Personally didnt find the jokes funny. But I think there could be a could joke in there if he worked on it.
The second issue is, I dont actually think he was telling a joke. Like I dont think he himself thought that was a joke. Seems more in line like he thought he was dropping truthfacts and people would find it super refreshing. Do I think that's problematic? No not really, he can say and feel however he wants. In turn he is open to criticism. That is how it works.
Personally didnt find the jokes funny. But I think there could be a could joke in there if he worked on it.
If the perceived context of the joke is accurate... then Dave is making it rather hard to appreciate his joke as anything but a transphobic swipe.
I mean... the most charitable interpretation might be - This person looks like a man - but she calls himself a woman - why is it on me to call them what they'd like to call, rather than what I see?
And the answer is... because ideally you're a respectful, empathic person that can change their mind once corrected?
I mean... the most charitable interpretation might be - This person looks like a man - but she calls himself a woman - why is it on me to call them what they'd like to call, rather than what I see?
And the answer is... because ideally you're a respectful, empathic person that can change their mind once corrected?
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Lmao, so completely unfunny. It's a little bit offensive. Doesn't seem that bad to me though. If other people think so, so be it.
Yeah no, you can critisize him of this particular joke not being funny at all, but his stand up overall is still strong as hell.
It's no good to have everyone be so self serving as to not speak up on a perceived injustice unless it affects them directly, and frankly many of us who are trans, questioning, or whatever HAVE been speaking up and criticizing here.
And that's part of the problem with these jokes, namely when saying stuff like that. It actively intimidates us from even wanting to explore the possibility of being trans when really it's something you may be stuck with. Society is getting better about awareness but it's still nasty and the 90s and prior were really bad there.
EDIT: And that highlights another issue with your logic. What if on reflection you find you ARE in the disparaged group? You laugh at gay jokes while sticking your head in the sand on how attractive your own sex is to you, or you laugh at trans jokes because you won't self reflect BECAUSE of these jokes making them seem like a delusion when the real delusion is that we can make a conscious choice about our brain wiring.
EDIT 2: Not that jokes on this matter can't end up funny, but the more mean spirited and less playful it is the harder it is to laugh anyway. Like you can joke about society about being too over sensitive that it will worry more about the pronouns used in innocent ignorance over a clear emergency going on, but treating those who transitioned as delusional freaks is terrible to do.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Only care about things if they directly affect you. That's all you are saying. No offense but that's just weak ass reasoning. Discussion isn't limited to only involved parties in life. How about we discuss the social implications because its a good dscussion?
Orbis Tabula
Member
Yeah, I've gotta say, everytime one of these threads comes up like "Comedian makes joke that audience responds poorly to" I don't get the arguments that happen within. It's like one side is basically saying "that joke wasn't that funny, and it was making fun of a group that already has enough shit to deal with" and the other says "The joke was funny. No topic should be off limits. Comedy often involves making people uncomfortable." And for the life of me, I dont understand why these two views aren't compatible.
I mean, I guess I do understand. People don't like it when a comedian they like gets criticized. Especially for a joke they think is funny. But since comedy is subjective, it seems foolish to argue over whether a joke is funny or not. And just because it's a joke and Chapelle is a comedian, it doesn't mean he's entitled to people laughing at it. If the audience doesn't like the jokes, that's the comedian's problems. Either rework your bit to tell jokes the audience does like, or find a new audience.
Chapelle is allowed to tell jokes. People are allowed to criticize him for them. Other people are allowed to debate those crticisms. But somehow it falls into these debates on free speech and censorship and the nature of comedy.
I mean, I guess I do understand. People don't like it when a comedian they like gets criticized. Especially for a joke they think is funny. But since comedy is subjective, it seems foolish to argue over whether a joke is funny or not. And just because it's a joke and Chapelle is a comedian, it doesn't mean he's entitled to people laughing at it. If the audience doesn't like the jokes, that's the comedian's problems. Either rework your bit to tell jokes the audience does like, or find a new audience.
Chapelle is allowed to tell jokes. People are allowed to criticize him for them. Other people are allowed to debate those crticisms. But somehow it falls into these debates on free speech and censorship and the nature of comedy.
You realize that there are trans people on GAF, right? They're not some vague group whose opinion we couldn't possibly know. Trans people in this thread have said that they're offended.
And honestly, anyone who knows anything about trans issues would be offended because refusing to acknowledge pronouns is a profoundly hurtful thing. It's not a joke at all. It treats the human being themself as if their continued existence is the punchline. As if wanting to have your humanity acknowledged is a joke. How is that funny? Who does that amuse except for ignorant people who do not see the humanity when they engage with someone they view as unfamiliar and far too different to simply accept?
Ha ha, you think you're a person deserving of basic respect and dignity, but to me you're not, that's the joke.
It's not overly sensitive to not want to actively hurt people. If people tell you, point blank, that doing something is going to cause a group of people profound pain then choosing not to do that or to object to that behavior isn't being "too PC" or "sensitive." It's not choosing to deliberately be a dick. Comedians don't innately have to be dicks.
Chapelle is talented enough not to malign and abuse an entire group of people and still be funny. You don't need to defend him so intensely. He has a voice. He can speak for himself. There's no need to be so sensitive in regards to Mr. Chapelle.
Captain_Spanky
Member
No, that's not how laughter works and you, probably, know that. There was a really interesting bit of research that suggests that laughter evolved as a way of primative humans giving the all clear - an incident that seems potentially harmful and when revealed to not be inspires laughter. For example a man slipping on a banana skin and getting = funny. A man slipping on a banana skin and splitting his head open and bleeding out = not funny.
(I'm talking real world here, the bleeding out thing could actually be an interesting darkly comic subversion of comedic cliche, but again the basis of that laugh is still an expected course of action being challenged)
Woody Invincible
Banned
Nothing better than fake outrage to make oneself seem more progressive than their peers. Hats off to you, sjw. Meanwhile, the person Jenner vehicular murdered last year is still dead. Where was the outrage for that?
Sorry, we're laughing at when South Park makes fun of that (well, I have yet to see that.)
This is a logical fallacy, we can hate who Caitlyn is while still respecting trans people (and even her own wishes on how to be referred! We're not going to call OJ a she over killing someone, now are we?)
Always-honest
Banned
Exactly this.
Still had to laugh though. It was a clever find in a "fuck you, i just think you are weird" kinda way. Disrespectful, yes. But i can't imagine him being like that in real life. He'd probably just say "oh sorry, HER.. ofcourse". I hope..
Stallion Dan
Member
But it was apparently a good joke.
""The bit was apparently a big hit during Dave's set at the Palladium"
I doubt the "audience" on Neogaf shares the same demographics as the Palladium audience. It is not surprising that opinions of a politically incorrect bit would differe between the two.
80s Bad Guy
Banned
I mean, he can say what he wants and people can laugh if they like, but if you find this funny I also have the right to think you're a shit person.
Ah, thanks for letting us know who you really are.
partyphone
Banned
so the bit is better in context or something? what do you think we're missing?
The difference between this and George Carlin--and it's one of the basic tenants of good comedy--is that you poke fun at, and you laugh at, the things people do. You laugh at, or mock, Caitlyn Jenner for running someone over. You don't poke fun at, and you don't laugh at, who people are. One is a choice, the other is not. It wouldn't be kosher to say something like, "When will black people stop asking me to call them people, and accept that I want to call them monkeys!" You'd get the shit kicked outta you.
You laugh at an uncomfortable situation to let everyone know that it's okay. You don't laugh at someone's identity. That makes you an asshole.
User 73706
Banned
"People get too easily offendered these days acause of the outrage culture." - Diotheles or Chartreucius or one of those quote guys, idk, probably
I'm kinda scared to say anything about this frankly but those of you comparing this racism, isn't quite one to one man...at all. Of the all the stand ups I've watched on my time on this earth, never once have I heard a joke along the lines of "black people have smaller brains" or even close to that, because racist jokes from real comedians are funnier then that and not so deeply offensive. I can't believe people on here got away with saying this shit.
How is it any different? I agree that "real comedians" phrase it better, but how are the two not very similar in style? You're attacking someone for who they are, and belittling them for something they can't very well change about them. The vast majority of racist jokes are mocking someone for what they do: "This one time, my black mother..."
You can not find Chapelle's joke offensive, but I'd also say that it's willful ignorance to not see how it'd be hurtful to an absurd degree if you've been dealing with bigotry against your identity.
SlaughterX
Banned
Still funny to me. You can put a puppy in clothes and a stroller but it doesnt make it a baby, so I dont see whats wrong with calling a trans man a man, thats how they were born and how I would always see them.
You're an asshole.
LudicrousSpeed
Member
All those analogies are doing is replacing the deeply offensive statement of "trans people are frauds whose feelings are actually just a fantasy" with something that's more culturally recognized as being patently offensive.
You're right that comedians don't usually make racist jokes like that, which is why it's so galling when Chappelle is doing exactly that about trans people. That's not a failure of someone's analogy, that's Chappelle's failure and pointing that out is the entire purpose of making that comparison.
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