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[Cidd]

Batman been killing fools since 1989's BATMAN but people just ignored it lol.

 

[ArgentPixel]

One agent notes BvS likely won't get to $1 billion despite launching the universe with "two of the most iconic characters in history."

Let that really sink in for a moment, and then realize how deeply you've fucked up.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

I think they are rushing this. I mean they are already making Justice League and they barley established the universe. It took Marvel years to get where they did with the Avengers and even longer to get to their ultimate baddie. It can be done but they should have the Aquaman movie and Wonder Woman movie out before Justice League. Also get rid of Zack. Yeah 300 was great. The Watchmen was good. Man of Steel was eh. These movies cant really depend on 1 director. DCU is took big for that.

 

[Discotheque]

Let that really sink in for a moment, and then realize how deeply you've fucked up.

Supeman is not as iconic as Jesus. no matter how hard he tries to be.

 

[inky]

There has been a lot of ink spilled on the idea that this Batman doesn't care about killing and is the same as the punisher now, but I'd say that's not strictly true. It's more like that he no longer considers it completely forbidden. We see several times in the film that he has criminals at his mercy and he renders them unconscious or lets the police grab them - the whole Bat Brand As A Mark Of Death subplot is kind of poorly explained but apparently only one person had died in prison because of it based on news reports at the start.

I've been harping on about it for weeks now it feels but we've had Burtman killing people since 89 and Nolan Bats killing people while pretending like he wasn't for 3 films. If I was a comic reader maybe I'd be more pissed but from the filmverse it only feels one step removed from what was already happening - dropping the pretense.

I'm not sure if you are taking it as if I meant he turned into the Punisher in this movie, but just to clarify, I wasn't. I meant that a character so tied to his specific local community probably shouldn't undermine his crusade by leaving so many bodies behind. But that was a "the idea of Batman in general" kind of statement.

It didn't really bother that Batman killed or "appeared to kill" this time around. That's why I said it was a "stupid rule" in the first place, because Batman kind of has this "no murder" thing hanging above his head all the time, and audiences react to that. All these guys, especially in movies, already have a "the end justifies the means" attitude anyway. I was just trying to explain to that one guy why people don't care as much when other characters do it, and the lack of a rule, more lighthearted tone, context, etc. all help with that.

 

[Colonel Nasty]

Let that really sink in for a moment, and then realize how deeply you've fucked up.

3, it's actually 3.

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

"I would kill criminals, so Batman should too."


BvS is the gift to neogaf that never stops giving.

 

[Chariot]

Supeman is not as iconic as Jesus. no matter how hard he tries to be.

Is the DCEU now competing with the Matthew Cinematic Universe?

 

[ArgentPixel]

Supeman is not as iconic as Jesus. no matter how hard he tries to be.

He's certainly the problem property between the two. He's a relic of the 50s.

I bet you anything that WB/DC could release a stand-alone Batman movie next year and it would outperform BvS.

People just don't give a shit about a demi-god. You can't relate to that shit no matter how hard they try, and happy-go-lucky Superman of the 80s films is verboten in today's climate of gritty children's movies pandering to adults.

 

[J_Viper]

Okay. I'm not arguing against any of that. I'm just telling you that murder is not a label that only applies to killing innocent people. :lol

Ah I see, my bad!

 

[Alandrus Sun]

He's certainly the problem property between the two. He's a relic of the 50s.

I bet you anything that WB/DC could release a stand-alone Batman movie next year and it would outperform BvS.

People just don't give a shit about a demi-god. You can't relate to that shit no matter how hard they try, and happy-go-lucky Superman of the 80s films is verboten in today's climate of gritty children's movies pandering to adults.

And yet Marvel has repeatedly banked on the success of happy-go-lucky hero movies. Try again.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

He's certainly the problem property between the two. He's a relic of the 50s.

I bet you anything that WB/DC could release a stand-alone Batman movie next year and it would outperform BvS.

People just don't give a shit about a demi-god. You can't relate to that shit no matter how hard they try, and happy-go-lucky Superman of the 80s films is verboten in today's climate of gritty children's movies pandering to adults.

I don't get it. Superman, a character from the 30s is a relic of the 50s (?) but had successful films in the 80s (?)

 

[kswiston]

Batman been killing fools since 1989's BATMAN but people just ignored it lol.

I think there is more of an expectation that comic film characters will be true to their comics roots (in spirit even if the films have unique stories) than was the case in 89.

You were juat happy to get comic films period then.

 

[Death Metalist]

The no kill rule was never about mercy. It was to keep Batman from becoming the very monster he's devoted to defeating. Bruce Wayne doesn't spare villains out of mercy. He spares them to keep himself sane (barely).

Vengeance blackens the soul, Bruce. I've always feared that you would become that which you fought against. You walk the edge of that abyss every night, but you haven't fallen in and I thank heaven for that.

Not anymore!

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Let that really sink in for a moment, and then realize how deeply you've fucked up.

And this article suggests WB has learned nothing and will instead double down on DC films.

Let THAT sink in for a moment.

 

[ArgentPixel]

I don't get it. Superman, a character from the 30s is a relic of the 50s (?) but had successful films in the 80s (?)

He symbolizes American optimism from the 50s and 60s, which is in short supply in the 21st century following 9/11, economic recessions and crises. If you're trying to deconstruct my comment and don't even understand Superman's motifs, then I'm very much confused about what you're trying to do.

And yet Marvel has repeatedly banked on the success of happy-go-lucky hero movies. Try again.

They insert witty banter between the scenes where gods, aliens, evil AI et al. are trying to enslave mankind, murder everyone, destroy cities, countries, etc.

I'll admit I didn't pay much attention to Thor: Dark World, but I'm pretty sure there was a bad guy in that one who was feasting off a tornado of evil, or souls, or blood, or some shit.

 

[quesalupa]

Batman been killing fools since 1989's BATMAN but people just ignored it lol.

This is true but at least Bats had some serious beef with Joker in that movie.

 

[paragonpro]

If they don't give Zack Snyder the boot before Justice League, then they really deserve every failure they get. You have more than enough evidence that the audience did not like his style, and if you're doing yet another very high profile film with him, you're dumb.

I agree, push back filming, find a new director and rework the script, then wait and see how ww and ss perform before you move forward with more dc stuff for now.

 

[Jeffolation]

That Tarzan movie probably isn't going to help matters much...

 

[Dai101]

He symbolizes American optimism from the 50s and 60s, which is in short supply in the 21st century following 9/11, economic recessions and crises. If you're trying to deconstruct my comment and don't even understand Superman's motifs, then I'm very much confused about what you're trying to do.

You were saying ................?

 

[Monty Mole]

They need to go back to basics and make some good straightforward movies again and forget all the big budget CGI-ridden franchise-baiting crap.

The problem is, with TV becoming the new movies, Hollywood studios aren't making so many story-driven movies these days, it's all big-budget nonsense or low-budget horror drivel. There's just no in between anymore, and it's the in between where the best movies come from.

 

[ArgentPixel]

You were saying ................?

He's human. He's a normal guy thrown into an extraordinary situation. He's the most baseline "hero's journey" character there is. You can relate to that. You can get inspired by that. Further, Winter Soldier and Civil War are both focusing on the collapse of that optimism. Cap represents that struggle. Superman just represents the good ol' times.


You can't relate to an immortal being from the stars who has no weaknesses other than the one that is constantly used because the writers realized they could only write so many stories about an alien lifting cars off of people.

 

[Dorpheus]

He symbolizes American optimism from the 50s and 60s, which is in short supply in the 21st century following 9/11, economic recessions and crises. If you're trying to deconstruct my comment and don't even understand Superman's motifs, then I'm very much confused about what you're trying to do.

While you're right about this, I think they really missed a great opportunity to contrast the cynicism of the world with the optimism that Superman can represent. (or perhaps they just missed the mark) The struggle to instill the hope and optimism is part of the point of the character. Perhaps they needed to look further back into the character's history for inspiration, it's not like the 1930's were all that optimistic.

 

[Blader]

While you're right about this, I think they really missed a great opportunity to contrast the cynicism of the world with the optimism that Superman can represent. (or perhaps they just missed the mark) The struggle to instill the hope and optimism is part of the point of the character. Perhaps they needed to look further back into the character's history for inspiration, it's not like the 1930's were all that optimistic.

Yeah, the idea that Superman was only really relevant for America's "sunny days" is a weird idea considering that the 30s, 40s, 60s, and 70s were all pretty tumultuous decades for Americans.

 

[Discotheque]

While you're right about this, I think they really missed a great opportunity to contrast the cynicism of the world with the optimism that Superman can represent. (or perhaps they just missed the mark) The struggle to instill the hope and optimism is part of the point of the character. Perhaps they needed to look further back into the character's history for inspiration, it's not like the 1930's were all that optimistic.

yes this would have been nice. would have provided a more starker contrast between him and bruce too aside from the obvious "you're not a man" thing.

 

[Aselith]

So sad to see great properties wasted because the creators don't know what they're doing.

Don't worry. Disney will pick up the license when WB falls

 

[Obliterator]

I feel bad for Affleck. He delivered such an awesome take on Batman and there's a chance we'll never get to see that character fully fleshed out with his own films. A real shame, I hope they at least keep him if they do indeed rework the DCU

 

[Discotheque]

I feel bad for Affleck. He delivered such an awesome take on Batman and there's a chance we'll never get to see that character fully fleshed out with his own films. A real shame, I hope they at least keep him if they do indeed rework the DCU

there's actually an even greater chance actually. they're well aware Batman was one of the standouts of this and I bet they're doing all they can to fasttrack his movie into production.

 

[Obliterator]

there's actually an even greater chance actually. they're well aware Batman was one of the standouts of this and I bet they're doing all they can to fasttrack his movie into production.

I hope so, he was the best part and I want to see more of him. Just would be a huge bummer if we lose something so cool because of this mess.

 

[inky]

It's pretty much a given that they are going to double down on Affleck.

 

[Alandrus Sun]

They insert witty banter between the scenes where gods, aliens, evil AI et al. are trying to enslave mankind, murder everyone, destroy cities, countries, etc.

What is your point? How are those not a happy-go-lucky films full of optimism? The reason people go out in droves to see Marvel films is because they are fun films centered around the classic hero tale, where heroes can be heroes who are able to conquer evil, which is readily apparent, through teamwork, love, and hard work. They don't try to be faux-philosophical films pontificating on the implications of a scenario where the Judea-Christian GOD exists on our Earth.

 

[Poona]

I feel bad for Affleck. He delivered such an awesome take on Batman and there's a chance we'll never get to see that character fully fleshed out with his own films. A real shame, I hope they at least keep him if they do indeed rework the DCU

The cast is great. So there is no need for reworks on that part.

Henry, Gal and Ben are great gets, and need to continue in their roles (and I really need to see Jason Momoa fulfill the role of Aquaman)

It can be done but they should have the Aquaman movie and Wonder Woman movie out before Justice League.

We will be seeing Wonder Woman film before Justice League, and I am so glad that they thought of that before. WW was my fave in BvS and I need more of her. Would have been good to see more of Aquaman too, but they'll get to expand on him later it seems.

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

Why did they give Snyder that much power in the first place? Director of all 4 major tent pole releases and a producer role on most of the rest? Why?

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Why did they give Snyder that much power in the first place? Director of all 4 major tent pole releases and a producer role on most of the rest? Why?

Because there is no exec at WB who is familiar with the characters, and after Snyder made Watchmen, Warner assumed he knew what he was doing.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

He symbolizes American optimism from the 50s and 60s, which is in short supply in the 21st century following 9/11, economic recessions and crises. If you're trying to deconstruct my comment and don't even understand Superman's motifs, then I'm very much confused about what you're trying to do.

By 1978, forty years after Superman’s creation, things had come kind of full circle. It’s easy to look back at the 70s as a decade of coke and disco, but for real people things were different. America was experiencing the aftermath of a great recession, and the oil crisis was a recent memory. As the economy stagnated our cities became overrun with crime and poverty; New York City almost went bankrupt. In 1977, which would have been when Superman: The Movie was being conceived and created, the great blackout in New York led to widescale rioting, looting and fires. It was easy to look at the country and see it falling to pieces, only a few years after it had barely crawled out of the morass of Vietnam and gotten past the criminality of Richard Nixon. Things looked bleak.

Enter Christopher Reeve.

Watching the 1978 Superman with modern eyes it’s perhaps hard to realize just how corny and out of step that Superman was; the film gives you all the cues you need to understand that, but the natural response of modern audiences is to look at all older films and settings as quaint or hokey. But the world into which Reeve’s Superman flew wasn’t silly or light - it was a dark time, one that needed a hero who could cut through the morally grey bullshit, who wouldn’t make excuses for the bombing of Cambodia or the racist destruction and abandonment of urban infrastructure.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/03/30/superman-and-the-damage-done

Superman symbolizes way more than the optimism of the 50s and 60s. Don't forget he was a character born out of the great depression. Folks had it way worse in that era than people do now but Superman was OK with them. Superman has actually remained relevant in virtually every decade since his conception, so I don't understand why we think we are different now.

 

[IndoAssassin]

The Jason Todd Theory is the best bet on this.

Damn I can't remember it, but there was a line that Bruce says in BvS that totally made me think that.

 

[Htown]

This isn't TAS anymore, Batman isn't facing bank robbers and corrupt politicians. He's dealing with sex slave traders and actual killers. Those types don't deserve the mercy of his no-kill rule.

It's mercy. You don't have to deserve it.

 

[Dahbomb]

Damn I can't remember it, but there was a line that Bruce says in BvS that totally made me think that.

"20 years in Gotham.. How many good guys left?"

"How many stayed that way?"


Though that could also be referring to Harvey Dent.

 

[jon bones]

"20 years in Gotham.. How many good guys left?"

"How many stayed that way?"


Though that could also be referring to Harvey Dent.

that was definitely about Harvey Dent

 

[Alandrus Sun]

It's mercy. You don't have to deserve it.

LOL.

Snyder thinks Batman is Rorschach, I wouldn't put it past his Batman uttering something close to Rorscach's opening:

"This city is afraid of me...I have seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper

"No."

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Batman's entire reason to exist is because his parents died unjust, untimely violent deaths. It was somewhere in his despair he realized, "This is wrong. Life is precious, life is short, nobody should have to die like that. I'mma gonna dedicate my life to making sure nobody dies like that again."

That means EVERYBODY. Everybody's life is precious, that includes the Joker, and Joe Chill, and every random criminal he comes up against.

what dont people get about that man

 

[Dahbomb]

that was definitely about Harvey Dent

Yeah but it can mean more than one.

 

[Discotheque]

"20 years in Gotham.. How many good guys left?"

"How many stayed that way?"


Though that could also be referring to Harvey Dent.

sweet line. it's definitely two-face. and also batman trying to rationalize his own misguided paranoia.

man i seriously think almost everything (the car chase can burn) batman in this movie is A1 (that intro scene with the sex slaves...wow, he was like a monster) and belongs in a far better movie.

 

[IndoAssassin]

"20 years in Gotham.. How many good guys left?"

"How many stayed that way?"


Though that could also be referring to Harvey Dent.

There it is. This movie needed flash backs of Jason getting tortured. Would have made it easier to stomach his carelessness for the criminals.

 

[Dahbomb]

There it is. Or both? This movie needed flash backs of Jason getting tortured. Would have made it easier to stomach his carelessness for the criminals.

Rumor mill on 4Chan is that the Ultimate edition has that along with the Wayne manor being burnt.

Honestly the last thing the movie needed are more flashbacks, dreams and premonitions. Movie needed to be leaner not more bloated. I appreciated that the movie didn't tell us that Robin is dead or what happened with Wayne manor... it was shown through the visual medium. "Show, not tell" essentially. One of the few things Snyder got right in this movie.

man i seriously think almost everything (the car chase can burn) batman in this movie is A1 (that intro scene with the sex slaves...wow, he was like a monster) and belongs in a far better movie

*Opening credits origin story
*Bruce tries to save people during Metropolis destruction
*Bruce and Alfred have the talk backs and debate over fighting Superman
*Bruce gives monologue about the history of the Waynes (they were hunters)
*Bruce smack talks Clark
*Bruce working out and prepping his Kryptonite before the fight
*Batman smack talks Superman and smashes his head with a toilet sink before almost killing him.
*Batman whooping some Luther goons Arkham style
*Knightmare sequence (cool scene standalone even if it didn't belong in the movie)

All good to great scenes in the movie that are kinda glossed over by everything related to Superman. About the worst thing about the Batman stuff aside from the killing and weird characterization was the JL tie ins.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Batman's entire reason to exist is because his parents died unjust, untimely violent deaths. It was somewhere in his despair he realized, "This is wrong. Life is precious, life is short, nobody should have to die like that. I'mma gonna dedicate my life to making sure nobody dies like that again."

That means EVERYBODY. Everybody's life is precious, that includes the Joker, and Joe Chill, and every random criminal he comes up against.

what dont people get about that man

Exactly. Also - Batman is an exceptionally driven and principled person. His internal code isn't supposed to make sense to a normal person. It's supposed to be a little frustrating that he doesn't kill the joker. Everyone around him could be making solid arguments that he should kill Joker and he wouldn't waiver because he's a dude that sticks absolutely to his principles.

 

[Alandrus Sun]

Batman's entire reason to exist is because his parents died unjust, untimely violent deaths. It was somewhere in his despair he realized, "This is wrong. Life is precious, life is short, nobody should have to die like that. I'mma gonna dedicate my life to making sure nobody dies like that again."

That means EVERYBODY. Everybody's life is precious, that includes the Joker, and Joe Chill, and every random criminal he comes up against.

what dont people get about that man

NO, his parents taught him the last valuable lesson they would ever teach him, dying in the gutter for no reason. That the only way the world makes sense is if you force it to. Now, excuse me while I kill this alien with my green spear. Mom and Dad would be so proud.

 

[jon bones]

sweet line. it's definitely two-face. and also batman trying to rationalize his own misguided paranoia.

man i seriously think almost everything (the car chase can burn) batman in this movie is A1 (that intro scene with the sex slaves...wow, he was like a monster) and belongs in a far better movie.

that line came off as a really strong, clear nod to Dent.

also, i agree. i really hope the extended cut is all bat-stuff and WB fast tracks the Affleck / Johns bat-movie. double down on all of that.

 

[Dead]

Rumor mill on 4Chan is that the Ultimate edition has that along with the Wayne manor being burnt.

Honestly the last thing the movie needed are more flashbacks, dreams and premonitions. Movie needed to be leaner not more bloated. I appreciated that the movie didn't tell us that Robin is dead or what happened with Wayne manor... it was shown through the visual medium. "Show, not tell" essentially. One of the few things Snyder got right in this movie.

There wont be any flashback of jason todd getting the snot beat out of him, or a scene of the manor getting burned down.

Those were just visual cues to expand the backstory and give insight into Bruce's state of mind, as you said, Show not Tell

Ultimate Cut is pretty much going to be all the material that was cut that actually ties the plot together, ie: Africa scene actually expanded, Clark going to Gotham to investigate Batman, more Lois investigating, the Luthor scene at the end, etc etc, plus some additional action here and there to justify the R rating.

 

[Discotheque]

Batman's entire reason to exist is because his parents died unjust, untimely violent deaths. It was somewhere in his despair he realized, "This is wrong. Life is precious, life is short, nobody should have to die like that. I'mma gonna dedicate my life to making sure nobody dies like that again."

That means EVERYBODY. Everybody's life is precious, that includes the Joker, and Joe Chill, and every random criminal he comes up against.

what dont people get about that man

why can't batman break? the reason for him abandoning that ideal is poorly explained but still it's weird how angry people got over such a..normal plot point.

i think if it was handled better in the movie there wouldn't be so much outrage over it (you could say that about a lot of plot elements in here). needed a better run through on the script.