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[RichiRamjag]

So black americans get precedence over black frenchmen?

They all deserve recognition, they don't always all get it. Arguing over which black guy had it worst is silly. Dice gave their reasons, they seem like they have a varied cast, not sure why folks are bugging out.

 

[thefil]

It was more of the posing and just overall blandness; I know military dudes scowling with guns has become a total cliche of box art design.

At anyrate, I think the box art is at the very least better than it just being an American Doughboy; I think a compromise could be them offering alternative box covers, one for each protagonist.

If they have an alternate cover with the Bedouin woman, that would go a long way IMO. It says that they think the other parties should be equally present in the marketing and representation of the game to the public. And that they think a non-American story can "sell" in America.

 

[CosmicQueso]

I don't think discussion of the cover is unmerited, though. Just like it's okay to talk about racial homogeneity on covers of games in America and other heterogeneous cultures, I think it's okay to talk about national homogeneity on a game about a world conflict. I'm not even saying I'm right, just that it's not outrageous for non-Americans to feel like there might be some "America-washing" going on here.

Fair enough, but what does the "America-washing" really say?

The Hellfighters fought under direct French command because the American army didn't want them fighting alongside white American troops.

Do you think that's something that gives Americans a sense of pride? Or shame?

It certainly isn't rah-rah America stuff that's for damned sure.

If they have an alternate cover with the Bedouin woman, that would go a long way IMO. It says that they think the other parties should be equally present in the marketing and representation of the game to the public. And that they think a non-American story can "sell" in America.

Hopefully there are tons of alternate covers available.

 

[jakonovski]

I know this is a joke but Hitler wasn't German.

Well I just noticed he's carrying a sniper rifle too. The real Black Dog of Ypres revealed?

 

[ScherzoPrime]

FWIW my bet is the Harlem Hellfighter protagonist will be the only playable American in the campaign, since there's such a limited time frame for American action anyways.

I know this is a joke but Hitler wasn't German.

Hitler did serve in the Imperial German Army though, because of his dislike of Austria-Hungary being a polyglot state.

 

[drexplora]

let's wait for a few hundred more games with generic black guys on the cover before we start complaining.

non issue..

 

[potatohead]

It's a no-win situation. If you put a white person on the cover, then the devs are whitewashing or racist or whatever. Put a black person on the cover, and they're pandering to the SJWs and trying to be politically correct. Keep this shit up too long, and we'll see a whole generation of minimalist covers just trying not to offend anyone at all.

It's not a no win situation. This is the kind of thinking that leads to self-censorship.

Whenever we have a generic white person on the cover, there's not even a topic on this. You already win by not doing anything past the status quo. It's easy. White person on the BF1 cover and we don't even have this discussion, period.

Anyone who would bring up a white person on the cover would probably be labeled as a SJW, which is equally part of the problem.

But when a non-white person is on the cover: bam, thread, discussion, must justify why a non-white person has to be on the cover.

Games, especially ones with historical context like BF1942 and other BF games, were typically white-washed in the past.

The games are set in WW2 and clearly there were non-white combatants (and non-combatants) and the fact that they weren't even considered to be included before is a bit of a damning statement against inclusion in videogames.

That is white-washing games that derive so much of their content from history. And if we're supposed to take games as art more seriously in the future, they need to be cognizant of the context from which they derive their own videogames content.

 

[docbon]

Fair enough, but what does the "America-washing" really say?

The Hellfighters fought under direct French command because the American army didn't want them fighting alongside white American troops.

Do you think that's something that gives Americans a sense of pride? Or shame?

It certainly isn't rah-rah America stuff that's for damned sure.

Not to mention they returned home without their sacrifices even being acknowledged by their home country. It's both tragic, and the foundation for a good storyline. And of course, it's not the only one being told.

 

[ScherzoPrime]

I think the important thing though is that DICE made their decision on what they want to represent; I think whether or not a person likes that choice I think we should respect their artistic right to portray it that way. I doubt the SP, or most of the MP for that matter, will be want for European combatants. So what exactly is the problem with having an African-American serviceman on the cover?

 

[jakonovski]

WW1 brings the Euro perspective too; it's not just American racial politics. It's a misrepresentation to say it's just about that here.

 

[Goldrusher]

Hopefully there are tons of alternate covers available.

European alternative box:

American alternative box:

 

[Warewolf]

I hesitate to even participate in this conversation because I genuinely cannot tell what the intent of OP could be.

Cloaked, Pistol toting, Trench Club wielding badass is always a good choice for a cover image.

That said still conflicted about a "cool" WWI aesthetic, conceptually.

 

[soundscream]

WW1 brings the Euro perspective too; it's not just American racial politics. It's a misrepresentation to say it's just about that here.

Nobody is saying that!

You are creating a narrative that doesn't exist.

 

[KonradLaw]

As somebody here already said, it's crappy to have american play such central role in the marketing, when you could have black frenchman instead.
But I guess WWI isn't an easy to thing to sell, so pandering to americans makes sense.

 

[ScherzoPrime]

I hesitate to even participate in this conversation because I genuinely cannot tell what the intent of OP could be.

Cloaked, Pistol toting, Trench Club wielding badass is always a good choice for a cover image.

That said still conflicted about a "cool" WWI aesthetic, conceptually.

But I think that could be said for about any military conflict in general. I think mentally sorting 'good wars' from 'bad wars' is problematic in itself.

 

[Varth]

Nobody is saying that!

You are creating a narrative that doesn't exist.

Plenty of people, even in this same page, are still arguing as all opposing the choice are racists. What are you talking about?

 

[jakonovski]

Nobody is saying that!

You are creating a narrative that doesn't exist.

There were some posts that suggested that this is a black vs white matter.

 

[Mass One]

Plenty of people, even in this same page, are still arguing as all opposing the choice are racists. What are you talking about?

Is it illegal to quote people so we don't have a discussion about a clandestine topic?

 

[thefil]

I guess by way of analogy, suppose that French rather than US/UK culture was dominant in our modern world. Most games are published by French, not American companies. Imagine that instead of an American/Brit on the cover of almost every AAA military shooter in the last two decades, it was a Frenchman.

Now, for the first time, an AAA production about the American Revolutionary War was being made. It will feature perspectives from American Natives, the British, the Colonists, and so on. However, they choose to put a Frenchman on the cover of the game, and to feature most prominently in the marketing m. The French served in that war. Perhaps there is a unit led by a French serf rather than a landholder that is given the prominent spot.

By the standards of French representation, depicting a serf is a huge improvement (in this fictional world)! But it would not be insane for Americans to feel that the top billing on their first big AAA game was being stolen from under them by yet another French protagonist.

So there is an improvement and a lack of improvement, in this fictional case. Depending on your perspective, one may seem infinitely more valuable than the other is demeaning.

 

[ScherzoPrime]

I do think the OP began this with a loaded question by suggesting that there was a 'motive' behind the cover choice instead of going "Hey, this is a cool image, and African Americans aren't usually shown in World War stuff so it'd be cool to show them off too."

 

[Palculator]

European alternative box:

American alternative box:

lmao

American version should have an ESRB rating, though.

 

[Mass One]

I guess by way of analogy, suppose that French rather than US/UK culture was dominant in our modern world. Most games are published by French, not American companies. Imagine that instead of an American/Brit on the cover of almost every AAA military shooter in the last two decades, it was a Frenchman.

Now, for the first time, an AAA production about the American Revolutionary War was being made. It will feature perspectives from American Natives, the British, the Colonists, and so on. However, they choose to put a Frenchman on the cover of the game, and to feature most prominently in the marketing m. The French served in that war. Perhaps there is a unit led by a French serf rather than a landholder that is given the prominent spot.

By the standards of French representation, depicting a serf is a huge improvement (in this fictional world)! But it would not be insane for Americans to feel that the top billing on their first big AAA game was being stolen from under them by yet another French protagonist.

So there is an improvement and a lack of improvement, in this fictional case. Depending on your perspective, one may seem infinitely more valuable than the other is demeaning.

I think a french character in a Revolutionary War game would be well received. It's not like they'll pretend America wasn't there. At least for me in my history classes they always talked about French involvement in the revolutionary war. We even have a dedicated sevenish-acre area in the capital of the country dedicated to Lafayette .

 

[D i Z]

There were some posts that suggested that this is a black vs white matter.

That's a strong backpedal. The thread OP is about racism and minority representation. You are co-opting it and making it about nationalism.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

I guess by way of analogy, suppose that French rather than US/UK culture was dominant in our modern world. Most games are published by French, not American companies. Imagine that instead of an American/Brit on the cover of almost every AAA military shooter in the last two decades, it was a Frenchman.

Now, for the first time, an AAA production about the American Revolutionary War was being made. It will feature perspectives from American Natives, the British, the Colonists, and so on. However, they choose to put a Frenchman on the cover of the game, and to feature most prominently in the marketing m. The French served in that war. Perhaps there is a unit led by a French serf rather than a landholder that is given the prominent spot.

By the standards of French representation, depicting a serf is a huge improvement (in this fictional world)! But it would not be insane for Americans to feel that the top billing on their first big AAA game was being stolen from under them by yet another French protagonist.

So there is an improvement and a lack of improvement, in this fictional case. Depending on your perspective, one may seem infinitely more valuable than the other is demeaning.

Thanks for this post.

 

[thefil]

I think a french character in a Revolutionary War game would be well received. It's not like they'll pretend America wasn't there. At least for me in my history classes they always talked about French involvement in the revolutionary war. We even have a dedicated sevenish-acre area in the capital of the country dedicated to Lafayette .

I think that's true, today. That's why I said imagine a world where American representation was not common, and French was. Do you think that would affect things?

 

[ScherzoPrime]

My inclination is frankly to take it at face value that they think it's a cool image, and not that they were wanting to pander to a certain demographic. (Though frankly, I think everyone should be pandered to (...so far as that doesn't involve actually violating others agency) and that people who complain ad naseum about pandering to SJWs are bloody hypocrites)

That's a strong backpedal. The thread OP is about racism and minority representation. You are co-opting it and making it about nationalism.

Eh, I think the initial complaints are primarily from European posters complaining about cultural appropriation.

 

[soundscream]

Plenty of people, even in this same page, are still arguing as all opposing the choice are racists. What are you talking about?

Who is said if you oppose the cover you're racisist?

It's fair game to say many of the arguments against it are crap, when the developer clearly stated why they choose to do it.

 

[bishoptl]

Plenty of people, even in this same page, are still arguing as all opposing the choice are racists. What are you talking about?

Eh? who

 

[jakonovski]

That's a strong backpedal. The thread OP is about racism and minority representation. You are co-opting it and making it about nationalism.

The thread has been about more than that for the longest time. The non-American angle is a perfectly valid one, given the subject matter. I don't think you realize how deep a a mark WW1 left in the collective European psyche.

 

[SmokedMeat]

No problem with Harlem Hellfighters being on the cover, but it would be cool to have country specific covers too as special editions or something. To the UK, Australia, NZ, Canada, France etc. who were in it from the start, WWI has a huge place in the 'national psyche'.

This is such a great idea. I don't see why it can't happen.

 

[soundscream]

And lets be real here. If they wanted to pander it would have been generic white man #13,566 voiced by Nolan North or if not available Troy Baker.

 

[D i Z]

My inclination is frankly to take it at face value that they think it's a cool image, and not that they were wanting to pander to a certain demographic. (Though frankly, I think everyone should be pandered to (...so far as that doesn't involve actually violating others agency) and that people who complain ad naseum about pandering to SJWs are bloody hypocrites)



Eh, I think the initial complaints are primarily from European posters complaining about cultural appropriation.

Which has been pointed out numerous times as to why that's silly because of what the HH represents both in the past and today. Also doubly silly because of Dice's statements on what the game is supposedly going to spend it's focus on. So what is left to argue? American pandering and nationalism. Btw, completely ignoring that you can't "pander" to an American audience by using their dirty racist laundry as some kind of a lure.

The thread has been about more than that for the longest time. The non-American angle is a perfectly valid one, given the subject matter. I don't think you realize how deep a a mark WW1 left in the collective European psyche.

More presumption. I absolutely do as I'm European myself. But let's be real. We're talking about European gamers being uncomfortable with one in a thousand WW1 games not catering to them this one time, not the other way around. These are stories about people who were boots on the ground that European history and American history have ignored and rendered inconsequential in the global conflict. I guess the discomfort of acknowledging them is as strong now as it was then.

 

[Mass One]

I think that's true, today. That's why I said imagine a world where American representation was not common, and French was. Do you think that would affect things?

Yeah. Things would be different if that was the case. I definitely agree that the American Media rarely covers other countries involvement in things. But I don't think anyone should expect otherwise.

I just think it's incredible disrespectful to now pretend like this fiction character on this game cover was a typical all american gruff man. This was not the case in history. If there is a campaign surrounding this history. They're will be a french/euro/american perspective because that's how it was.

 

[ScherzoPrime]

Which has been pointed out numerous times as to why that's silly because of what the HH represents both in the past and today. Also doubly silly because of Dice's statements on what the game is supposedly going to spend it's focus on. So what is left to argue? American pandering and nationalism. Btw, completely ignoring that you can't "pander" to an American audience by using their dirty racist laundry as some kind of a lure.

I'm pretty sure it'll be pro-America as an ideal; it'll just also be about how our social institutions have often failed to live up to that ideal.

I mean, like I said, I don't get why anyone would be angry about this. I just sort of get where some European Gaffers are coming from, even though I think it's overblown because obviously there's going to be European representation in the game.

 

[thefil]

Yeah. Things would be different if that was the case. I definitely agree that the American Media rarely covers other countries involvement in things. But I don't think anyone should expect otherwise.

I just think it's incredible disrespectful to now pretend like this fiction character on this game cover was a typical all american gruff man. This was not the case in history. If there is a campaign surrounding this history. They're will be a french/euro/american perspective because that's how it was.

Do you really think from my analogy or any of my other posts that I think he is a typical all American gruff man? I think I've made my reasoning very clear why I don't think an American figure should be the default cover, underrepresented or otherwise, shameful to Americans or inspiring. But I understand why to Americans it seems like, and is, a progressive, powerful choice that sends a message.

 

[Mass One]

Do you really think from my analogy or any of my other posts that I think he is a typical all American gruff man? I think I've made my reasoning very clear why I don't think an American figure should be on the cover, underrepresented or otherwise, shameful to Americans or inspiring. But I understand why to Americans it seems like, and is, a progressive, powerful choice that sends a message.

The part about the portrayal as the typical all american is a reference to this.

American alternative box:

I don't agree with you at all and I think it's incredible disrepectful and I think we should leave it at that.

 

[thefil]

The part about the portrayal as the typical all american is a reference to this.


I don't agree with you at all and I think it's incredible disrepectful and I think we should leave it at that.

I also think that image is incredibly disrespectful.

 

[Mass One]

I also think that image is incredibly disrespectful.

k.

 

[Kinyou]

More presumption. I absolutely do as I'm European myself. But let's be real. We're talking about European gamers being uncomfortable with one in a thousand WW1 games not catering to them this one time, not the other way around. These are stories about people who were boots on the ground that European history and American history have ignored and rendered inconsequential in the global conflict. I guess the discomfort of acknowledging them is as strong now as it was then.

Uh, where are those thousands of ww1 games? As far as I know this is even the first big budget game about ww1

 

[ScherzoPrime]

I think one thing though, that European have to admit; is that American involvement in WWI was essential to drawing it to a conclusion, or at least before the decade was out. The Germans nearly broke the allied lines in an assault in the early Spring 1918. It was the arrival of American soldiers and material to the front that permanently turned the tide; so portraying the United States as some sort of bit partner in the war is extraordinarily disingenuous.

So the argument goes America was important to winning the war; Black Soldiers were important to the American war effort; ergo, Black soldiers serve recognition for their importance in winning the war.

And I mean, from a dry social calculus PoV: recognition of stateless people is more important than recognition of people who have a state.

 

[Sir Blaming]

So, I did some google about this cover and you know what,
"It's cool I suppose." That's all I thought.

I don't understand why we got to have a discussion about who and what to place on a cover, cause it's a stupid problem. I can't give two shit about something that is going to get looked at once and then forgotten.
We have made a problem, so let's stop making it a problem by not talking about it like it's a problem.

 

[jakonovski]

More presumption. I absolutely do as I'm European myself. But let's be real. We're talking about European gamers being uncomfortable with one in a thousand WW1 games not catering to them this one time, not the other way around. These are stories about people who were boots on the ground that European history and American history have ignored and rendered inconsequential in the global conflict. I guess the discomfort of acknowledging them is as strong now as it was then.

One in a thousand? In the context of AAA releases this is the first WW1 shooter since The Darkness.

 

[2thepoint]

It turns my stomach. Just flat out the most offensive game I've ever seen.

I can name family members that died in this conflict, wept at the pictures and accounts of the dead and maimed that experienced this hell, was taught all the horrors of it from primary school, through my whole life, it's only ever been a symbol of the folly of war, the worst, most black and shameful era of British and European history. I've been to the actual battlefields and mass graves across Europe, held the minutes silence without fail every rememberence day my entire life, for as long as I could understand the meaning of it.

There was no glory in this war. No thrilling action or daring do, no heroes and villains, this was mass murder, a scar on the history of our species, and every single person involved in it was a victim.

This trailer, the entire concept of this game, makes me feel physically sick, and just so fucking angry.

How fucking dare anyone make a game like this about the Harlem Hellfighters.

I don't know what's worse, the sick fucking emotionless, greedy cunts that would seriously exploit this horror of an industrialised massacre, or the ignorant, soulless bastards that will give them money and enjoy it.

Anyone involved in this, or seriously think of buying this, should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[TotalHorlicks]

I think one thing though, that European have to admit; is that American involvement in WWI was essential to drawing it to a conclusion, or at least before the decade was out. The Germans nearly broke the allied lines in an assault in the early Spring 1918. It was the arrival of American soldiers and material to the front that permanently turned the tide; so portraying the United States as some sort of bit partner in the war is extraordinarily disingenuous.

I think your playing it up too much to be honest. The Germans were on the back foot when the Brits joined after the invasion of Belgium.

 

[thefil]

I think your playing it up too much to be honest. The Germans were on the back foot when the Brits joined after the invasion of Belgium.

This. The Germans under Ludendorff had a few very costly offensives near the end of the war, and took some ground. But this was a last ditch effort, and the offensive was a failure by the standards of its own goals. But the only reason the U-Boat attacks on American merchant shipping were even made was out of desperation. That said, the US absolutely sped up the end of the war by a year or even two. Before and even after American involvement the allies were planning campaigns through the end of 1919 and into 1920. The collapse of the Germans after the failure of the 1918 operations was not anticipated.

 

[ImThatDood]

Black people weren't even real in 1914 /s



Although I do kinda agree with this. Movies like saving private ryan have a semi-similar problem with just showing the American side. Not that it lessens the sacrifices made, it's just smells a bit jingo-ie.
Though based on then campaign description it seems like you would be playing as different characters from seemingly European countries. Americans being DLC is pretty fine with me.

I love this comment! I definitely loled!

 

[D i Z]

Uh, where are those thousands of ww1 games? As far as I know this is even the first big budget game about ww1

One in a thousand? In the context of AAA releases this is the first WW1 shooter since The Darkness.

Oh, of course you would. One in a thousand is a phrase, not an actual representable figure. This might be the biggest budget WW1 today, but the games of the past were not all budget games in the slightest. And how does a games budget or time of release even fit into this discussion without a colossal effort to move those goal posts?

 

[NoPiece]

Maybe people complaining (the non-racist complainers), should consider that this is payback for this French film atrocity about the American Revolutionary war that DARED to feature a Frenchman on the poster. The horror... I'll apologize for the BF1 as soon as Charles de Gaulle apologizes for this movie.

La Fayette (1961)

 

[jakonovski]

Oh, of course you would. One in a thousand is a phrase, not an actual representable figure. This might be the biggest budget WW1 today, but the games of the past were not all budget games in the slightest. And how does a games budget or time of release even fit into this discussion without a colossal effort to move those goal posts?

The type of game is definitely relevant. This only became a discussion because it's an AAA game. An indie hex strategy about the Harlem Hellfighters wouldn't be the same thing as this.

And mind you, if you read my earlier posts, I'm of the opinion that the great injustice is if (more like when) the Hellfighters are relegated to a politically correct reskin.

 

[Kinyou]

Oh, of course you would. One in a thousand is a phrase, not an actual representable figure. This might be the biggest budget WW1 today, but the games of the past were not all budget games in the slightest. And how does a games budget or time of release even fit into this discussion without a colossal effort to move those goal posts?

Big budget usually means bigger audience which in turn makes the representation more meaningful.