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[Cuyejo]

I just see this as the typical pandering for 'Murica won WWI and WWII for those petty european countries yet again, bastion of freedom, good guys, Russians are evil as fuck tropes that plague vidya and other media. It's always been insulting, but whatchu gunna do, 'Murica is also their biggest market. So there's no one to blame but capitalism.

Which incidentally reminds of this graph:

It's laughable and sad at the same time. People are dumb.

 

[Varth]

Eh, this thread is a wild one. Both sides of the argument are kind of annoying me to be honest. I'm glad there's a brother on the cover of one of the biggest AAA shooter franchises out here, and a mainstream piece of media set in one of the early 20th century world wars is FINALLY acknowledging black people's sacrifices during those wars. To dismiss it as 'pandering' as if it's some kind of positive discrimination is offensive.

On the other hand, I also do see the concern that this may focus on American's during WW1. Regardless of what the American's on this forum think, WW1 touches a special nerve with people here in Europe that you really can't even begin to understand. Far more so than WW2 for some reason, at least here in UK. And so to have a mainstream piece of media set in WW1 focus on American's who, despite helping to speed up the war's end, did join after French, German, British, Australian, Belgian, Italian, Russian men had been dying in the mud for 4 years prior is understandably touching a nerve.

HOWEVER! If you listen to the trailer, I'm pretty sure every instance I heard of speaking, the accent was British, which is cool. We'll see how it pans out, but this thread is an embarrassment. Good god.

Agree on all accounts.

Happy to have black troops contribution to war effort getting recognised (just wish they DID on some other shooter).

Not happy to see the US getting Central stage in this, even more so for marketing reasons.

Embarassed by the average lack of knowledge of MANY posters on the matter and the ignorant flag waving. Beginning to believe those who say its barely touched on in History class at all.

Starting to repeat myself, anyway. Time to get out and see how it will Pan out.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

A WW1 video game from a big developer, and the damn Harlem Hellfighters, a group many people actually have no idea about, getting some shine shouldn't result in any negativity.

Of course, it's a Battlefield campaign and that's never actually been interesting on any level, so being pessimistic in that regard would be more than understandable.

Still.... The Harlem Hellfighters, that's cool to see, along with a "Bedouin woman warrior on a horse" being a playable character.

 

[CosmicQueso]

Do you even have an idea of the proportion of losses and suffering or are you Just waving your USA flag for fun?

I've never done anything of the sort. So fuck off with that.

Only in Italy there were like 400.000/600.000 dead only in the army vs 120.000 in the USA troops. Not counting civilians and fallout of war. Yes, it was a war where USA didn't play a role as important as the WWII nor did pay a tribute as bloody as all of European countries.

That is NOT what you were saying. You said that

WWI simply isnt a war where the US played a keyrole in.

which is a ludicrous statement, and clearly wrong.

Embarassed by the average lack of knowledge of MANY posters on the matter and the ignorant flag waving.

If you are referring to your own, then I agree.

 

[Alienfan]

HOWEVER! If you listen to the trailer, I'm pretty sure every instance I heard of speaking, the accent was British, which is cool. We'll see how it pans out, but this thread is an embarrassment. Good god.

Tbh there's really only one annoying side to this argument, those saying this game over represents America's involvement in the war simply by having an American solider on the cover. They might have had a point if we didn't have the trailer that disproves this worry - it features almost entirely middle eastern, French, Australian, German and British soldiers - only 2 or 3 Americans (who by the way are all getting slaughtered by German soliders). There's zero evidence that DICE will be focusing mostly on the America's support or exaggerate the glory of it - in fact all evidence from the trailers suggest otherwise.

 

[jakonovski]

So African then. Not European. Pretty much foreign conscripts as well, but certainly not African American. Got it.
Thanks for the link. I can see many hours of deep diving into the history of this infantry group.

You'll also probably get to shoot these guys while playing as the Bedouin character.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

Because this thread is precisely about racial politics....





...and you were actively trying to sideline that discussion.

Forgive me if I've been reading too much into that, but there are more than enough people in this thread trying really hard to either strip the black man on the cover of his nationality, switch the discussion away from his nationality, substitute him and his origins out for their own identifiable (and equally disposable) stand ins of an actual real life hero placed into a traditional white power fantasy, even remove him completely and whitewash the event entirely with tired nationalistic nitpicks. And I'm sorry, it's utter and complete bullshit.
We can't even have one thread to chop this topic up and stay on racial politics within honest to god actual historical context without it being jacked and made into yet another tale of white fragility cos the story is about anything other then them.



Very true. Now number me the games and stories told today about the ethnic people who were embroiled in this conflict with as much on the line as everybody else. Just give me one.

What so if I as a Brit/European think a European should be the centrepiece of a European based war, then I am therefore, automatically a racist and against a Black male being on the cover?

You're not actually serious are you?

 

[Mass One]

Tell that to them mate, not me. As I said in the first paragraph, I'm glad my race is finally getting some proper recognition for what they did in WW1. It's ridiculous how we're more or less scrubbed out from the history books as far as mainstream WW1/WW2 media goes.

But I'm just saying I can see why people are worried that this sets a precedent for a very American focused game, despite the PR lip service from DICE. It's absolutely okay for people to be skeptical until proven otherwise.

Yeah I'm sorry, sounded aggressive. It's just this thread is bothering me.

Argument: It's another American on the cover
History says: This certainly wasn't the case for xyz reasons
Argument: But we'll only see the American perspective on this
History says: That wasn't the case either.

 

[D i Z]

Uh, I thought this entire discussion was about the cover.

Noooo, we've been talking about why the content centers on the HH and the level of involvement these American had to land them a spot on the cover. Hence the whole people would be fine if it were about "black Frenchmen" and not the HH. Let's be real for a second. Most people couldn't tell the difference between a black Frechman and an African American in French garb to begin with. Shit was never just about the cover.

I can't take you seriously when you're being this deliberately obtuse.

What so if I as a Brit/European think a European should be the centrepiece of a European based war, then I am therefore, automatically a racist and against a Black male being on the cover?

You're not actually serious are you?

As one Brit/European to another then, please highlight for me the moment where I said that anyone in this thread was being racist. I very distinctly point out white fragility and this insane need to claim sole ownership over horrible historical events.
I expressed my own intolerance at this navel gazing bullshit and these lazy ass attempts to stunt a chance to re-contextualize the false assumptions taken as fact by many in regards to this war.
Guilty of those things, without a doubt. You can ignore all of the context laid out for you by Dice, and you can ignore all of the context I've laid out about my position in my posts.
But you can't say that I called anyone here a racist. And you can't make a World War a strictly European affair, nor whitewash the people that were there out of it with continental territorial pissing.

What would be hilarious is if most of the material in the game covered the African campaigns for this conflict. Again, World. War.

Edit:
Speaking of...

You'll also probably get to shoot these guys while playing as the Bedouin character.

Much appreciated. These links you've dropped are actually really helpful for me in a mostly unrelated art way. Thanks again.

 

[Alienfan]

Not happy to see the US getting Central stage in this, even more so for marketing reasons.
.

Not sure I agree with you there, a game's cover is far from the only marketing material. The trailer, currently with over 7 million views, features almost only European and middle eastern soldiers - with a few Americans (all of which are depicted brutaly killed - not in some pretend glorious light). I don't think DICE are necessarily pandering to an American audience

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Tbh there's really only one annoying side to this argument, those saying this game over represents America's involvement in the war simply by having an American solider on the cover. They might have had a point if we didn't have the trailer that disproves this worry - it features almost entirely middle eastern, French, Australian, German and British soldiers - only 2 or 3 Americans (who by the way are all getting slaughtered by German soliders). There's zero evidence that DICE will be focusing mostly on the America's support or exaggerate the glory of it - in fact all evidence from the trailers suggest otherwise.

Aye, but I've grown to learn that on the internet, especially GAF, it doesn't take much for the mental gymnastics to begin. Plus, conversely, just given the state of the industry right now, you can understand why some PR and a 2 minute trailer isn't quite enough to allay those fears.

I'm stoked none the less. This game will sap away another 600 hours of my life like BF4 and BF3 before it. *sigh*

Yeah I'm sorry, sounded aggressive. It's just this thread is bothering me.

Argument: It's another American on the cover
History says: This certainly wasn't the case for xyz reasons
Argument: But we'll only see the American perspective on this
History says: That wasn't the case either.

For sure. I think some people are taking it way too far in the 'Fuck no, this is gonna be a flag waving American jingoism fest' camp.

 

[jelly]

Why don't they just do a group shot, World War. many nationalities and ethnicities. That would be refreshing. One scene but different attire and people phased through it.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Why don't they just do a group shot, World War. many nationalities and ethnicities. That would be refreshing.

The Harlem Hellfighters are pretty damn refreshing. (not that I disagree with a group shot)

 

[Alienfan]

Aye, but I've grown to learn that on the internet, especially GAF, it doesn't take much for the mental gymnastics to begin. Plus, conversely, just given the state of the industry right now, you can understand why some PR and a 2 minute trailer isn't quite enough to allay those fears.

I'm stoked none the less. This game will sap away another 600 hours of my life like BF4 and BF3 before it. *sigh*



For sure. I think some people are taking it way too far in the 'Fuck no, this is gonna be a flag waving American jingoism fest' camp.

Yeah totally, I just don't think there's enough evidence to be saying America's involvement is a central part of the game - maybe the next trailer or first piece of gameplay will warrant these arguments, but at the moment this game appears to be doing a great job handling all the different diverse factions . Regardless though, I seriously can not wait for this game!

 

[SolidSnakex]

Why don't they just do a group shot, World War. many nationalities and ethnicities. That would be refreshing.

The guy on the cover may be the lead which would market hem want to put an emphasis on him. There are multiple playable characters, but war games in the past have done the same and still maintained having one character be the center of it all. Like in MW, there are multiple playable characters but Soap is the main one.

 

[Kinyou]

Noooo, we've been talking about why the content centers on the HH and the level of involvement these American had to land them a spot on the cover. Hence the whole people would be fine if it were about "black Frenchmen" and not the HH. Let's be real for a second. Most people couldn't tell the difference between a black Frechman and an African American in French garb to begin with. Shit was never just about the cover.

I can't take you seriously when you're being this deliberately obtuse.

Dude, I'm not being deliberately obtuse. This entire thread is about the cover, not about if the game should feature the HH or not. I mean who is moving goalposts now?

We don't know how much of a spot they'll take in the actual campaign. It's pointless to speculate about that.

 

[Claude Augario]

It's not about ethnicity. People already said they'd be fine with a black Frenchman etc.

Aka "I'm okay with The Blacks™, just not Those Blacks™."

 

[Kinyou]

Aka "I'm okay with The Blacks™, just not Those Blacks™."

But that's not what anyone is saying. It would be the same complaint if it was a white American.

 

[ISOM]

Why don't they just do a group shot, World War. many nationalities and ethnicities. That would be refreshing. One scene but different attire and people phased through it.

They probably thought a black male on the cover was refreshing enough which honestly it was. To now say that it should have been a multiethnicity group shot feels a little like bullshit.

 

[udivision]

They probably thought a black male on the cover was refreshing enough which honestly it was. To now say that it should have been a multiethnicity group shot feels a little like bullshit.

I know it's a pretty tired and hollow statement, but geeze, "This is why we can't have nice things" is starting to feel appropriate here.

 

[Africanus]

It would be really great if they could colour the war in similar shades/reference All Quiet on the Western Front and The Road Back.

 

[Claude Augario]

But that's not what anyone is saying. It would be the same complaint if it was a white American.

I don't think anyone would be saying it should be a black Frenchman if it was a white American.

I don't think this thread would even exist if it was a white American.

 

[shintoki]

I'm so very confused at what the issue is...

 

[D i Z]

But that's not what anyone is saying. It would be the same complaint if it was a white American.

The conversation has been about the how's and the why's since the OP. You should read it again if you think that it's not.

 

[FadedRevolution]

I'm so very confused at what the issue is...

Black dude on a video game cover

 

[RichiRamjag]

Maybe because everyone recognises the key role played by US in freeing Europe from nazism, and other modern Wars featured in videogames have been largely a US affair (whatever the opinion is on the reasons being right or wrong)?

WWI simply isnt a war where the US played a keyrole in. Having a game feature an American Squad on the cover implies the opposite, and is simply preposterous.

Also, still playing the "everyone disagreeing is racist" card.

Not playing anything. I don't know what you even mean by still. Maybe you got me mixed up someone. Im calling it like I see it. I can't read the OP or some of the responses and deny that is what I see. Do I think you're racist? No, but it does annoy me that when some form of representation is made, folks come out of the woodwork to start dogging how insignificant the loss of life is simply because they were Americans and all of a sudden and start requesting region specific covers. That's crap.

If folks were saying, "it's great that they've done this, but as a European, I'd like to see a more accurate representation of what happened", then fine(you actually said it in the below post). But for some to completely act like folks who fought and died don't matter because they were Americans is bullshit and that is how many are coming across.

Agree on all accounts.

Happy to have black troops contribution to war effort getting recognised (just wish they DID on some other shooter).

Not happy to see the US getting Central stage in this, even more so for marketing reasons.

Embarassed by the average lack of knowledge of MANY posters on the matter and the ignorant flag waving. Beginning to believe those who say its barely touched on in History class at all.

Starting to repeat myself, anyway. Time to get out and see how it will Pan out.

So much isn't touched on. WWI is a footnote in most history classes and we sure as hell didn't learn about the Harlem Hellfighters.

 

[ScherzoPrime]

And to put it another way this dick waving would be problematic if any single nationality were featured on the cover. If it were a Frenchman the British would complain, and if it were British the French would complain, and if it was a German then all the Entente would complain.

Wars cannot be summed up by one man, DICE wanted to paint an evocative cover, and since I don't see any unit patches or anything, the only reason we know he isn't French Foreign Legion or another nation's colonial troops is the HH stamp. So to me it's a non-issue.

 

[Trup1aya]

One day, you'll be able to feature a person of color in a high profile game without being accused of pandering OR feeling a need to seek out diversity.

You'll be able to do it simply because that's what made sense for your title.

That's said, I'm really glad DICE has gone with this cover and is featuring the HH, because WWI was mostly glossed over back in my highschool days, and they certainly weren't going to teach us about any black units... Now I feel like researching this facet of the war, and learning more about the entire conflict in general.

But, I do understand the sentiment that an American shouldn't be on the cover of a game that America had a small part in. But I'm conflicted, because I'm so excited to see a Black Regiment being recognized for their contribution, especially now that I've learned how much shit HHs had to go through just to get to get an 'opportunity' to fight and die in a war that their country wasn't even a major part of.

I suppose I'd also be happy to see a Black Frenchman on the cover as well... But knowing that the French were far more welcoming to blacks than the US armed forces would dampen things a bit for me...

 

[cartographer]

I don't think this thread would even exist if it was a white American.

Pretty much.

I understand the argument regarding the US role in WWI and various posters' concern over how it will be handled in-game. I get it, even if some of the reactions are over-the-top.

But if it was just a white US soldier on the cover, you'd have a handful of people commenting on it in the trailer thread and most people not even caring. Maybe a short one or two page thread of reactions. There would certainly be far fewer questions of pandering.

It would be nowhere near this abomination of a thread. That the character is black clearly has an massive effect on the conversation, both on GAF and especially in the wider internet gaming community.

And just to head off those who think I am calling them racist: I'm not. All of the above can be true without you being a racist.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Pretty much.

I understand the argument regarding the US role in WWI and various poster's concern over how it will be handled in-game. I get it, even if some of the reactions are over-the-top.

But if it was just a white US solider on the cover, you'd have a handful of people commenting on it in the trailer thread and most people not even caring. Maybe a short one or two page thread of reactions. There would certainly be far fewer questions of pandering.

It would be nowhere near this abomination of a thread. That the character is black clearly has an massive effect on the conversation, both on GAF and especially in the wider internet gaming community.

And just to head off those who think I am calling them racist: I'm not. All of the above can be true without you being a racist.

This is exactly how I feel.

I honestly don't think this would even be a discussion had it been a white American.

 

[Palculator]

There wouldn't have been a thread if he was white, but the creation of this thread was questioned numerous times as well because there wasn't any backlash to him being black that warrants it.

 

[ScherzoPrime]

Pretty much.

I understand the argument regarding the US role in WWI and various poster's concern over how it will be handled in-game. I get it, even if some of the reactions are over-the-top.

But if it was just a white US solider on the cover, you'd have a handful of people commenting on it in the trailer thread and most people not even caring. Maybe a short one or two page thread of reactions.

It would be nowhere near this abomination of a thread. That the character is black clearly has an massive effect on the conversation, both on GAF and especially in the wider internet gaming community.

And just to head off those who think I am calling them racist: I'm not.

I definitely think there's an aspect of the European Gaffers here being annoyed by what they feel is American race relations are taking precedent over recognition of 'their' war; which I do think is pretty selfish. Probably are some American historical war buffs who feel the same way too.

Again, I really just think that DICE thought it was a cool image, and the people complaining about European recognition really need to chill.

 

[Varth]

Dunno. Still curious if they would choose the same "cool cover and theme" (still convinced its not a matter of art only) if they werent a swedish dev and if Sweden wasnt neutral in the WWI. Guess not having the burden of some hundreds of tousands of dead men helps when bending things around that little bit to sell your wares.

 

[ISOM]

Dunno. Still curious if they would choose the same "cool cover and theme" (still convinced its not a matter of art only) if they werent a swedish dev and if Sweden wasnt neutral in the WWI. Guess not having the burden of some hundreds of tousands of dead men helps when bending things around that little bit to sell your wares.

You're acting like Harlem Hellfighters didn't fight in the war and earn their stripes. And this is a fucking cover only, you have no idea what's in the actual game regarding representation. What you just posted sounds very offensive to both Dice and to HH who had people die in their unit.

 

[D i Z]

Dunno. Still curious if they would choose the same "cool cover and theme" (still convinced its not a matter of art only) if they werent a swedish dev and if Sweden wasnt neutral in the WWI. Guess not having the burden of some hundreds of tousands of dead men helps when bending things around that little bit to sell your wares.

There we go again with this "bending". What exactly is disingenuous about this that isn't on the tip of your grinding axe?

 

[Quote]

Dunno. Still curious if they would choose the same "cool cover and theme" (still convinced its not a matter of art only) if they werent a swedish dev and if Sweden wasnt neutral in the WWI. Guess not having the burden of some hundreds of tousands of dead men helps when bending things around that little bit to sell your wares.

Simple question, do you think a HH story is not worthy of a AAA game?

 

[RichiRamjag]

Simple question, do you think a HH story is not worthy of a AAA game?

I guess enough of them didn't die for him to consider it significant enough for a cover.

I'd understand a bit more if the game was solely about them, but it sounds like they're going to use multiple characters.

 

[Bronx-Man]

This thread reads exactly the one for the Assassin's Creed III reveal.

 

[JayBabay]

Game looks awesome I don't care who or what is on the cover.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

This thread reads exactly the one for the Assassin's Creed III reveal.

Agreed. To no surprise, really. Faces of color? Time to nitpick.

It's like spiking the football and dancing in the end zone. Not only do they have the nerve to put Americans on the cover, but black Americans at that. The audacity of it all.

 

[Trup1aya]

Dunno. Still curious if they would choose the same "cool cover and theme" (still convinced its not a matter of art only) if they werent a swedish dev and if Sweden wasnt neutral in the WWI. Guess not having the burden of some hundreds of tousands of dead men helps when bending things around that little bit to sell your wares.

What is being bent? Without playing the game, are you suggesting that the game will overly emphasize the impact American's had on the war? are you coming to to your conclusion based on the cover and 2min trailer?

I mean, the Harlem Hellfighters did exist, and they did fight in WW1. So it doesn't take any "bending" to include them in a game that takes place during WWI.

 

[_Spr_Drnk]

This game looks good. Probably the first Battlefield title I've ever been interested in.

 

[RdN]

I personally think it's fucking awesome that they have the Harlem Hellfighters as the center piece of the game.

For a moment I thought that I could not believe there were people not happy with this.. But then I remember that I'm on the Internet... There's fucked up people with fucked up views on anything and everything.

 

[Palculator]

Simple question, do you think a HH story is not worthy of a AAA game?

Not what they're saying. They "deserve" (silly way to put it) it for sure. The Bedouin woman directly cited in the OP does too. Why isn't she on the cover? If the express intent is to show multiple angles of the war (according to the statement by DICE), why is an American one in the spotlight as opposed to one of the actually lesser known sides?

but black Americans at that.

People aren't complaining about their colour. Not sure what the relation to Assassin's Creed III is either since I'm sure a Native American on the cover didn't raise questions of Americentrism. But I haven't followed it since I don't care about Assassin's Creed, so take that with a grain of salt.

Anyway, this thread is getting sillier by the minute. The complaints about them being black have been scant and that decision in particular was rightuflly met with praise. Focusing on that fact alone in what's essentially a complaint regarding American exceptionalism (funny how everyone ignored the chart at the top of this page) is missing the point and seems to slowly escalate into namecalling. The one actual counter-argument I've seen raised is that grouping the Harlem Hellfighters into "Americans" downplays the massive discrimination they have faced in their own country, something I can actually see and which is more convincing than recent attempts to outstrawman each other.

 

[Mass One]

Not what they're saying. They "deserve" (silly way to put it) it for sure. The Bedouin woman directly cited in the OP does too. Why isn't she on the cover? If the express intent is to show multiple angles of the war (according to the statement by DICE), why is an American one in the spotlight as opposed to one of the actually lesser known sides?

People aren't complaining about their colour. Not sure what the relation to Assassin's Creed III is either since I'm sure a Native American on the cover didn't raise questions of Americentrism. But I haven't followed it since I don't care about Assassin's Creed, so take that with a grain of salt.

Anyway, this thread is getting sillier by the minute. The complaints about them being black have been scant and that decision in particular was rightuflly met with praise. Focusing on that fact alone in what's essentially a complaint regarding American exceptionalism (funny how everyone ignored the chart at the top of this page) is missing the point and seems to slowly escalate into namecalling. The one actual counter-argument I've seen raised is that grouping the Harlem Hellfighters into "Americans" downplays the massive discrimination they have faced in their own country, something I can actually see and which is more convincing than recent attempts to outstrawman each other.

Man, I thought we went through this? You guys keep acting like black american WW1 experience is same to the white american ww1 experience it's not. I don't know why you guys are so disrespectful and keep doing this.

 

[Palculator]

Man, I thought we went through this? You guys keep acting like black american WW1 experience is same to the white american ww1 experience it's not. I don't know why you guys are so disrespectful and keep doing this.

Yes, we were through this, which is why I've mentioned it as the actually convincing counter argument I've read in the latter part of my post.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

If the express intent is to show multiple angles of the war (according to the statement by DICE), why is an American one in the spotlight as opposed to one of the actually lesser known sides?

Black American soldiers fighting alongside French soldiers in WWI is lesser known, at least going by posts I've seen about this game on this forum.

What does "actually lesser known," mean here?

 

[Mass One]

Yes, we were through this, which is why I've mentioned it as the actually convincing counter argument I've read in the latter part of my post?

Yeah, I notice this. That was my mistake. You did mention it. The amount of times someone has said this, has made me believe that no one cared enough and in turn I began to demonstrate the same careless attitude towards your post.

 

[Palculator]

Black American soldiers fighting alongside French soldiers in WWI is lesser known, at least going by posts I've seen about this game on this forum.

What does "actually lesser known," mean here?

Didn't mean to suggest it was common knowledge -- seems like nothing is common knowledge about World War 1 besides trenches and gas if we go by forum posts. If putting them on the cover has exposed more people to them, which it seemingly has because we have posts explicitly saying as much, then that's obviously a good thing, even better if the game proper highlights many more sides of the war. My remark was more about an American story seemingly having being given focus over other "lesser known" ones (and yes, as I said just now I see how lumping them in as "American" is harmful itself, but that was the thought process before I was presented with that counter argument.)

Yeah, I notice this. That was my mistake. You did mention it. The amount of times someone has said this, has made me believe that no one cared enough and in turn I began to demonstrate the same careless attitude towards your post.

No problem, no harm no foul.

 

[Quote]

Is this really about a cover? If so, I have some bad news for you.

Here is one about a COMPANY.

Hm, there is 1 difference with Battlefield 1 though...