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[casiopao]

Neogaf itself even had the thread on how many female employees had here.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=452344

Iwata Ask is the source on the topic.

 

[Spman2099]

Because his sarcasm is combining two seperate things; mechanics and narrative.
I assumed his critique here was upon the narrative, because mechanically even in Other M there's no question that Samus is anything but a fucking bad ass bounty hunter.

You make odd assumptions. Also, I think you are misunderstanding my sincerity. I was speaking to the narrative strength of Other M and the mechanical strength of Super Princess Peach. We can celebrate both of these marvelous games for their unique positive elements, friend.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Excellent video.

Of course some people are going to cover their ears and go "la la la" about the comments on female representation, especially so when the target of criticism is Nintendo.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Nintendo is one of the most feminist companies in the entire videogame industry.

They are absolutely not terrible by any standard (so what Brittany uses Pink as her colour in Pikmin 3, Alph is blue , so sexism right ?). She actually has a personality.

That is absolutely incorrect. The company that to this day still routinely uses princess with little to no personality to be kidnapped and be something the male hero rescue, is not feminist. And when they decide to give one of their select few female protagonists a voice and flesh out their character we get bullshit like Other M.

I will tell you one thing though: Splatoon was a step in the right direction. But that's just one step. And Miyamoto didn't make that game, that was the new guard bringing Nintendo to the 21st century.

 

[LordRaptor]

You make odd assumptions. Also, I think you are misunderstanding my sincerity. I was speaking to the narrative strength of Other M and the mechanical strength of Super Princess Peach. We can celebrate both of these marvelous games for their unique positive elements, friend.

That's cool, cherry picking elements to remove context is definitely the most intellectually honest critique possible.

 

[SerTapTap]

After Sticker Star and Star Fox...maybe it's time to stop. Even if you love both of those games, you have to see that they're controversial at best while prior entries were universally acclaimed.

But what cutscenes? I completed the game recently and I really can't remember many cutscenes even being in the game.

There's no way you didn't notice the game awkwardly stealing the TV's focus at least once per level, usually just to have a boss bark some generic threat. That's what they mean by Cutscenes, not that that's a good thing. I even rain into some walls because of them.

 

[Spman2099]

That's cool, cherry picking elements to remove context is definitely the most intellectually honest critique possible.

Cherry picking is a fun phrase. I can see why you like it so much. I think it is empowering the way you misuse it; you do you, friend.

 

[LordRaptor]

Cherry picking is a fun phrase. I can see why you like it so much. I think it is empowering the way you misuse it; you do you, friend.

If you legitimately want to make a comparative statement regarding Nintendos being more or less sexist than other companies or products in the industry, I would expect examples of other companies or products in the industry to be there somewhere.

e:
Because an industry that is routinely and unashamedly sexist can still have a hugely sexist Nintendo still being "one of the most feminist in the industry".
It is a comparative statement, not an absolute one.

 

[Garuroh]

Nintendo is one of the most feminist companies in the entire videogame industry.

They are absolutely not terrible by any standard (so what Brittany uses Pink as her colour in Pikmin 3, Alph is blue , so sexism right ?). She actually has a personality.

I hope this is sarcasm...

Some people see a game with a femalw character that doesn't wear a skimpy outfit and are quick to call it "feminist".

Nintendo may not be super sexist but it doesn't deserve to be calles feminist at all

 

[Spman2099]

If you legitimately want to make a comparative statement regarding Nintendos being more or less sexist than other companies or products in the industry, I would expect examples of other companies or products in the industry to be there somewhere.

If I were doing that I would expect the same things. On top of that, a bibliography formatted in MLA, sourcing at least five academic papers, would also be a bare minimum requirement. We are on the same team, friend. If we weren't I wouldn't be calling you friend.

I think we both know that Nintendo loves women, but women should stop crying on the phone to their mothers all day and make sure that dinner is ready at five. Not five fifteen! Five! Nintendo doesn't want to hit women, but sometimes women force Nintendo's hand. Please understand.

 

[Kid Ying]

I guess if miyamoto gives a bad advice to someone, the game is shit because of him. If he gives a good advice, then the game has nothing to do with him and is good because of the people that actually made the game.

Not wrong for the latter, but for the former... The guy is just a manager these days. His contribution to games is far too minimal for people to judge if he still got it, but since he's a big shot that everyone knows, he's the easy face to attack.

It is what it is. People hate idols and always want to show that not anything is as good as it seems.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Nintendo is one of the most feminist companies in the entire videogame industry.

They are absolutely not terrible by any standard (so what Brittany uses Pink as her colour in Pikmin 3, Alph is blue , so sexism right ?). She actually has a personality.

Oh come on.

They may not be sexist like some of the other AAA devs you find out there, but let's not prop them up as a bastion of feminism either.

 

[Syril]

After Sticker Star and Star Fox...maybe it's time to stop. Even if you love both of those games, you have to see that they're controversial at best while prior entries were universally acclaimed.

The three Star Fox games between 64 and 64 3D were not universally acclaimed and were fairly divisive themselves.

 

[nynt9]

I guess if miyamoto gives a bad advice to someone, the game is shit because of him. If he gives a good advice, then the game has nothing to do with him and is good because of the people that actually made the game.

Not wrong for the latter, but for the former... The guy is just a manager these days. His contribution to games is far too minimal for people to judge if he still got it, but since he's a big shot that everyone knows, he's the easy face to attack.

It is what it is. People hate idols and always want to show that not anything is as good as it seems.

Well he was championing the gamepad controls for this game and its controls were clearly born of his vision with those gamepad tech demos so the game's failure to justify the gamepad falls on him. Similarly, he mentioned that he wants to do more with this game's story, so that failure also lies with him.

It's not that people hate idols. This guy publicly championed these concepts so when they disappointed he is the one who receives flak for it.

 

[yyr]

The only game to really get me to accept the gamepad as a useful thing to use was Mario Maker.

Am I the only one who thought Nintendo Land was so fantastic that I had to buy the console? I thought it really showed the GamePad's potential, and I had a ton of fun with it. Just thinking about it makes me want to go home and play it.

I just wish they'd been able to use some more of that ingenuity in their later titles.

 

[Kid Ying]

Well he was championing the gamepad controls for this game and its controls were clearly born of his vision with those gamepad tech demos so the game's failure to justify the gamepad falls on him. Similarly, he mentioned that he wants to do more with this game's story, so that failure also lies with him.

It's not that people hate idols. This guy publicly championed these concepts so when they disappointed he is the one who receives flak for it.

I think the starfox flak is the only one he truly deserves. When people try to put things like paper mario into him they are just trying to find reasons to blame the guy. Even the other games he was endorsing, like giant robot and guard were made with his usual management role.

Starfox zero is the only case in years he truly worked more in the game (perhaps thinking he could salvage the game), so i think that any criticism in this case is valid. The rest? Not so much.

Oh come on.

They may not be sexist like some of the other AAA devs you find out there, but let's not prop them up as a bastion of feminism either.

I dont know how the thread turn into this topic, but since feminism is about equality and Nintendo these days usually have the option to play as a women in most of its games, i guess it's a bit more feminist than the usual videogame company.

 

[Soul Lab]

People are shitting on Miyamoto and praising Splatoon at the same time.
Something's wrong here lol. Miyamoto had an important role in the Splatoon concept phase

 

[Alex_Mexico]

People are shitting on Miyamoto and praising Splatoon at the same time.
Something's wrong here lol. Miyamoto had an important role in the Splatoon concept phase

Concept phase. Correct me if I'm wrong but he wasn't that involved in Splatoon as he was with, say, Star Fox Zero, Zelda OoT or Mario 64.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

I hope this is sarcasm...

Some people see a game with a femalw character that doesn't wear a skimpy outfit and are quick to call it "feminist".

Nintendo may not be super sexist but it doesn't deserve to be calles feminist at all

Have you seen Samus lately? She got a horrible depiction in Other M where half the time she was in her skin tight Zero Suit complete with butt shots and whatnot and the sometime before Smash Bros on WiiU she got a boob job.

That Zero Suit qualifies as skimpy.

 

[Soul Lab]

Concept phase. Correct me if I'm wrong but he wasn't that involved in Splatoon as he was with, say, Star Fox Zero, Zelda OoT or Mario 64.

I didn't say he was that involved. I just keep seeing post like "Miyamoto should retire", "Miyamoto just makes bad decisions nowadays" or "Miyamoto is bad for Nintendo" etc. The George Lucas comparison makes no sense

Yes, I don't agree with all his decisions/work but damn the hate is real. Ofc gems like Pikmin 3 get overlooked too

 

[AntMurda]

I didn't say he was that involved. I just keep seeing post like "Miyamoto should retire", "Miyamoto just makes bad decisions nowadays" or "Miyamoto is bad for Nintendo" etc.

But he actually may have retired from managing game development as of September 2016.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

I didn't say he was that involved. I just keep seeing post like "Miyamoto should retire", "Miyamoto just makes bad decisions nowadays" or "Miyamoto is bad for Nintendo" etc. The George Lucas comparison makes no sense

Yes, I don't agree with all his decisions/work but damn the hate is real. Ofc gems like Pikmin 3 get overlooked too

Nintendo as a whole needs an update but I don't hate Miyamoto. But I do think his best years are behind him. But in those years he accomplished more himself than many publishers won't ever achieve put together. He's a legend. But legends don't last forever.

His input is definitely still appreciated and needed. But I'm not sure he should still be directing a modern AAA full fledge console game. The industry catched up to him and he's been having trouble staying up to date.


Many developers with his years in the industry wished they could say their first real failure wasn't until year number 35 as was with Shiggy.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Kyle nailed it. Especially that ending. Never really thought at how the main females in Mario are poised as attractive with more realistic proportions while the male characters defer from this. Although I think the pink thing is silly. Its a well liked colour by girls is it not? Anyway I would be really curious to see a story focused game by Nintendo with a female lead. Metroid was just that and it went meh. I wouldn't of minded seeing the Link/Zelda roles reversed, in fact I would of loved to see that change.

I also wouldn't blame Miyamoto as much as Kyle did but it definitely feels like he has lost his touch which is understandable if I'm being honest.

 

[Kid Ying]

Concept phase. Correct me if I'm wrong but he wasn't that involved in Splatoon as he was with, say, Star Fox Zero, Zelda OoT or Mario 64.

He also wasnt involved on star fox zero like with the other two games you mentioned.

Also, in other m (a game with no input from miyamoto at all, so i dont even know why its being called, but okay) Samus time in the zero suit is like 10 minutes of the game. Not even close to half of it.

 

[AntMurda]

He also wasnt involved on star fox zero like with the other two games you mentioned.

He has the exact same role in Ocarina of Time / SM64 as he did in Star Fox Zero. Producer and Supervising Director.

 

[GhostTrick]

U are also one of those guys who said Nintendo is doom during gamecube era right.

Mmh, no ? Gamecube era was one of their most brillant. Why do you think that ?

 

[Haganeren]

It was kinda hard to look at this video since i liked Star Fox Zero a lot, even Sticker Star (even if not AT ALL thanks to Miyamoto... And i would have liked it a lot better if it had a real environment and real NPCs) I was even totally sold at the gamepad idea the day i though of playing Wii U in my bed without the need of any television. Since then i played the Wii U a lot like a portable console at a lot of place.

So yeah, for me, the Gamepad was already a success and Star Fox Zero was good even if i had some grip with it... But even i had to conceid that he had a lot of fair point. Even if it convinced ME, the Gamepad didn't convinced the public in general so that count as a failure. I still think Miyamoto can be a great advisor in order for developpers to focus on what make their game unique. We will never know how much Miyamoto contributed on the different Nintendo ouput, we just know he is really bad with stories.

PS : I don't think that's fair to reproach the role of woman in Nintendo universe when the real problem is more "There are taking the same universe which was made during the 80's again and again without having something new". I mean, the whole "Kat" rant can be said to Starfox 64 and even to Crystal. So yeah, not really a worthwhile addition for me. And newer universes from Nintendo is a lot better in parity i feel. (The girl from Pikmin 3 may be pink but she was more of a middle aged women than any of the usual female we tend to see and i liked that)

And when they decide to give one of their select few female protagonists a voice and flesh out their character we get bullshit like Other M.

Don't want to bring the whole Other M subject again but before that, Samus was a character who strip for the player depending of their performance. I don't think the "action girl" sterotypes we tend to like is better in character than "girly girl", the two needs to exist.
And having a more vulnerable Samus because she is deep in her memories was kinda fun for once. If they could do that kind of stuff with Mario, i wouldn't say no but hey, we need a woman to have interesting stuff like that, i agree it's sad but sad in that way, not the opposite. I'm also not mentionning the whole pregrancy concept which... Well... Is forbidden for whatever reason.

But yeah, the concept of Samus itself is oversexualized ayways (Who's behind this big robot ? Oh ! A beautiful curby woman, so cool !) so if we talk about Other M bullshit, let's talk about Metroid bullshit in general.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

People are shitting on Miyamoto and praising Splatoon at the same time.
Something's wrong here lol. Miyamoto had an important role in the Splatoon concept phase

The premise of the piece is that Miyamoto was given a mission to make some games that undeniably make use of the gamepad in a way that validates it. Splatoon was not one of his games.

Miyamoto originally didn’t see the attraction. “He was saying, ‘I don’t understand. What do you want to do? There’s no appeal to this game,’” clarifies producer Hisashi Nogami. “We had the basics,” director Yusuke Amano says. “And then we were like, ‘Let’s add the hiding [in ink] feature; let’s add jumping; we need height, because it’s a 3D map.’ And then we thought, ‘We need to be able to shoot up and down.’ And we realised we’d added all this stuff, and we got confused. We didn’t know what the game was about.”

Miyamoto's opinion has of course changed.

http://www.gamesradar.com/miyamoto-didnt-splatoon-originally-2/

 

[Kid Ying]

He has the exact same role in Ocarina of Time / SM64 as he did in Star Fox Zero. Producer and Supervising Director.

Well, i was wrong them. To me it sounded like he was much more involved back them, but its hard to fight against a credit. Haha

 

[RobFox64tm]

As a long-time Nintendo fan, this was hard to hear, but Kyle is not wrong.

 

[Hibiki Kurosawa]

Another ep where I'm greatly agreeing with what Bosman is saying. Him describing Star Fox Zero's story? Dear god, it's like it has an "anti-story".

 

[Labrynian Rebel]

The only part of the video that didn't ring true for me was Brittany from Pikmin 3.

C'mon, Kyle, she was great. She was funny, greedy, selfish and brave. It's so rare to see a female character be given negative traits to balance out the good ones and make her more interesting, but it made her the best of the three, and very endearing. She was also a terrible botanist, lol.

Yeah Charlie and Brittany stole the show. Alph is generic and bland as all get out.

 

[AAMARMO]

 

[Haganeren]

Errrrrr no.

An outdated creator i think, but a businessman ? Meh.

 

[BY2K]

Errrrrr no.

An outdated creator i think, but a businessman ? Meh.

It's photoshoped. The Tweet was originaly about Inafune.

 

[Haganeren]

It's photoshoped. The Tweet was originaly about Inafune.

Well, it's a well-known tweet but I though it was the opinion of the guy who photoshoped that.

 

[Labrynian Rebel]

Huh. Splatoon has an 81 average on Metacritic. Thought it'd be higher. Guess it's not as successful as I thought.

People got into a tizzy about a bunch of things FPS are "suppose" to have. And remember that when Splatoon came out it didn't have many stages.

 

[Jo Shishido's Cheeks]

But yeah, the concept of Samus itself is oversexualized ayways (Who's behind this big robot ? Oh ! A beautiful curby woman, so cool !) so if we talk about Other M bullshit, let's talk about Metroid bullshit in general.

No.
Samus was just a reference to Alien, a film pivotal in establishing heroic women on-screen.
Ridley is lusted after and appears in her underwear so I guess her character is a sexualised one too, huh?

 

[Already Torn]

No.
Samus was just a reference to Alien, a film pivotal in establishing heroic women on-screen.
Ridley is lusted after and appears in her underwear so I guess her character is a sexualised one too, huh?

Could you imagine if the next Alien film played out like Other M? Yikes.

 

[Admiral Alliteration]

The premise of the piece is that Miyamoto was given a mission to make some games that undeniably make use of the gamepad in a way that validates it. Splatoon was not one of his games.

Come on, that's not true at all. Maybe that's how the press stylize this, but it's not true. Star Fox Zero (as well as Star Fox Guard and Project Giant Robot) started as a prototype of some small dev team. This is the same way Splatoon and many other EPD games started.

Miyamoto's involvement in Star Fox Zero is really overrated. As well as his contributions to Sticker Star. He supervises nearly every Nintendo game, but the gaming press as well as Nintendo like to exaggerate on Miyamoto's importance due to his fame.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Yeah, this has been my feeling since the Wii, maybe the Gamecube.

MIyamoto was a tour de force when all a game needed to excel was some slight control twerk and a focus on the basics. In that 2D era, he knew what a good game looked like. In 2016 however he just doesn't have what it takes.

He had what one must assume was a pretty long time and budget to make a WiiU thing that blew peoples socks off. In that same time, the junior squad made Splatoon which he almost came close to Mario-ing/not even letting out of the gate. DEspite Miyamoto going on record as saying he doesn't see the point in new character IP and story:

"Certainly within Nintendo," begins Miyamoto, "we have people internally who are saying, 'Well, we have our old characters from our old games, and that's old IP, and we should think about creating new IP.' But the question that we always ask is: 'Does a new character really make it a new game?' And to me, the answer to that is, 'No.'

"What makes it a new game is new gameplay and new interactions. So when we're creating a game, we're always looking at it from, 'What is the gameplay, and how are making that gameplay new?' And then, 'Who is the character that is best suited to that gameplay?'"

Then Splatoon becomes the most successful thing Nintendo has done in a long while. Fanart went crazy for those inklings before people came close to getting to play it. New characters, new hype. This is the horses bolting from the cart, and leaving Grandaddy Miyamoto the driver looking like he's done. Miyamoto also went on to say new experiences necessitate new characters, but you could have still shoehorned Yoshi or Mario onto Splatoon and robbed it of its unique flavourful world building.

Thats another thing he doesnt get at all: world building. We live in an era where even Hollywood movies have cracked longform shared universe storytelling. Meanwhile Miyamoto strips it out of RPG's, doesn't want Link to be anything other than a blank doll, and games should not give a shit about building intrigue through their environments.

Plz ignore the success of that Dark Souls thing compared to Zelda. No Mans Sky being made by an indie dev team and making space exploration fresh is not something that takes away from Starfox 64 Remake #2.

Thankfully with all the recent shuffles it seems like Miyamoto has a lot less influence now. If we can get a decade of Splatoon level new IP from Nintendo, they'd be back to having the respect I gave them in the SNES era when they were batting out incredibly new shit every quarter.

 

[Already Torn]

Come on, that's not true at all. Maybe that's how the press stylize this, but it's not true. Star Fox Zero (as well as Star Fox Guard and Project Giant Robot) started as a prototype of some small dev team. This is the same way Splatoon and many other EPD games started.

Miyamoto's involvement in Star Fox Zero is really overrated. As well as his contributions to Sticker Star. He supervises nearly every Nintendo game, but the gaming press as well as Nintendo like to exaggerate on Miyamoto's importance due to his fame.

Star Fox was unveiled by showing Miyamoto playing a blurry game and saying "this is my new Star Fox game I'm making". Before that Iwata said that Miyamoto was personally working on games that would show the value of the GamePad, which would be revealed at E3.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Don't want to bring the whole Other M subject again but before that, Samus was a character who strip for the player depending of their performance. I don't think the "action girl" sterotypes we tend to like is better in character than "girly girl", the two needs to exist.

And having a more vulnerable Samus because she is deep in her memories was kinda fun for once. If they could do that kind of stuff with Mario, i wouldn't say no but hey, we need a woman to have interesting stuff like that, i agree it's sad but sad in that way, not the opposite. I'm also not mentionning the whole pregrancy concept which... Well... Is forbidden for whatever reason.

But yeah, the concept of Samus itself is oversexualized ayways (Who's behind this big robot ? Oh ! A beautiful curby woman, so cool !) so if we talk about Other M bullshit, let's talk about Metroid bullshit in general.

Yes, there's certainly stuff to criticize about Metroid games prior to Other M and the "stripping" part as a reward for skillful play is one of those for sure. But that's nothing compared to the bullshit they put Samus through in Other M. Even Ripley on Alien 1 was never less of a badass female character even after the last 10 minutes being spent in her underwear. Samus in Other M was not the same badass who had saved the galaxy half a dozen times before Other M. She was bastardized to the point she wouldn't dare to disobey a man (who treated her with disrespect) even if that meant putting her life at risk.

I'm not against fledging out characters and giving them defined personalities. I'm against doing that badly and half-assedly and that's just what they did with Samus in that game. Especially since it contradicts every Metroid game before this one.

 

[Mokujin]

Great episode, he mirrors a lot of my opinions on both Starfox and Miyamoto.

I have been supporting Miyamoto with passion for a lot of years now but he seems so out of touch, or at least his talents are not suited to just make games trying to shoehorn gimmicks as a starting point, he's done thinks so great in the past that maybe he just needs to do an original game in a more traditional way.

That said I have always hated his stance on "story doesn't matter", gameplay is first, but come on...

 

[Garuroh]

Have you seen Samus lately? She got a horrible depiction in Other M where half the time she was in her skin tight Zero Suit complete with butt shots and whatnot and the sometime before Smash Bros on WiiU she got a boob job.

That Zero Suit qualifies as skimpy.

I was talking more about Peach and the Pikmin girl but yeah. Other M's Samus is not Miyamoto's faul tho.

Other M's Samus is fucking horrible. Even dudebros felt offended.

 

[JetSetRadio]

It's funny to watch him fuck around.

 

[Kojirospath]

Lol, that school bit slayed me! Excellent video!

 

[michaeltraps]

"Shut up, Isabelle. Gameplay comes first."

DONE

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Come on, that's not true at all. Maybe that's how the press stylize this, but it's not true. Star Fox Zero (as well as Star Fox Guard and Project Giant Robot) started as a prototype of some small dev team. This is the same way Splatoon and many other EPD games started.

Miyamoto's involvement in Star Fox Zero is really overrated. As well as his contributions to Sticker Star. He supervises nearly every Nintendo game, but the gaming press as well as Nintendo like to exaggerate on Miyamoto's importance due to his fame.

That's contradictory to the evidence provided in the piece. Miyamoto was given a directive by Iwata to sell the gamepad. With his credentials. Make a few games that people cannot ignore using Miyamoto magic and the Miyamoto brand. Iwata called him out by name in the press releases. Miyamoto actually did PR for SFZ. He stuck his neck out for SF, Guard and Giant Robot. Intentionally and publicly.

 

[Jokab]

Kyle nailed it. Especially that ending. Never really thought at how the main females in Mario are poised as attractive with more realistic proportions while the male characters defer from this. Although I think the pink thing is silly. Its a well liked colour by girls is it not? Anyway I would be really curious to see a story focused game by Nintendo with a female lead. Metroid was just that and it went meh. I wouldn't of minded seeing the Link/Zelda roles reversed, in fact I would of loved to see that change.

I also wouldn't blame Miyamoto as much as Kyle did but it definitely feels like he has lost his touch which is understandable if I'm being honest.

Some girls like pink, some don't. I would assume globally, more girls like the color pink than men. Does that make pink an inherently female color? Not really.

And it's not like females in games aren't allowed to be pink, that's completely fine. But when it time and time again is the only feature to identify a character's gender, it gets tiring. It's almost like some Nintendo design meetings (and other game devs too of course) are like "Hmm, we need a female character in here. Okay, let's take the design of a male, give her a skirt and her color pink. Girl created, easy!". It's just lazy design. While male characters can be practically any color and wear anything, girls so often are just pink, maybe red, and wear girl clothes. It's really not that difficult to make a girl look like a girl without making her have stereotypical girl features (case in point: Splatoon).